Dear Aniko,

While it is true that many families have been separated as a direct
result of '56, it is also true that many people were able to start a new
life in democratic countries, and enjoy a never-before possible freedom.

I hope that you agree, that in order to get the whole picture, we must flip
the coin to see the other side of it.

My family will always be grateful for that unexpected little window of
opportunity that made it possible for us to live in our adoptive countries.
(the plural is intended)  It takes nothing away from our heritage, that
we don't ever intend to conceal or deny, and instilled in our children as
well.  But it gave us, and the next generation(s) a chance for a far better
quality of life.  Nobody can hold that against us.

Martha

Dear Cecilia,

hope you are getting better. Since by accident your message went out to
HUNGARY as a whole let me respond there.

> English is separated from Latin by 2,000 years, yet how many root words are
> there in English from Latin that have persisted?  As I look at just these
> few sentences I can see that it is at least 40% of what I have just written.
Since English is not a Romance language, and the people now speaking it are
not in any systematic way descendants of the Romans, it seems to me your
observation serves only to undermine the case Badiny et al. wish to make. Even
if we found a substantial linguistic relatedness (of which there is no sign, I
must repeat), cultural transmission seems much more likely an explanation than
actual blood relation.

> >To put the matter in perspective, we are talking about less than a couple of
> >hundred words here,
> Badiny counted over 600, and said this was simply based on what the
> researchers had to work with, suspected it was much more.
What I meant was that this by itself established Badiny as an irresponsible
scholar -- how could he claim 600 *related* words when there are fewer than
200 *known* words to begin with!

> >without the benefit of a written record it would be hard to believe
> >[Beowulf and Chaucer] are the same language at all.
> The problem is they are not.  Beowulf is Saxon.  Chaucer was writing after
> the French speaking Normans took over.  Although the ancient Saxon is
> related to the ancient Frankish-German tongue, the Franks merged with the
> Gallo-Romans, etc. to develop French while the Saxons "merged" with the more
> Germanic/Slavic (? question on the Slavic) tongue of the Celts.  Fewer
> Romans stayed behind in Britain than in France, so although there is a Latin
> influence in both areas, and English itself much later shows the strong
> Latin connection, the Latin influence was less when Beowulf was written than
> the later works of Chaucer.
I must disagree. Old English, also known as Anglo-Saxon, is the language on
the direct line of ancestry to Modern English. I feel there is such strong
professional consensus on this matter that your professor at U of Minnesota
could have hardly been immune. True, the linguistic history of the period
is rather turbulent, but Beowulf can not be treated anything other than
OE (and late OE at that).

> Absolutely true.  Linguistics by itself cannot do this.  However, that means
> all linguistic statements of most languages before roughly 500 BCE are
> equally fallible and equally theoretical.  All we have is more people
> believing one theory and less of another, but it's all little more than
> belief in supposition.
Not exactly. Sumerian is one of the few languages for which the written record
goes back longer. Egyptian boasts of the longest unbroken recorded history,
(given that it's still used as a ritual language), and can be pushed back to
about 3000 BCE. Interpreting the ancient Chinese materials is more hazy, but
but there is certainly empirical (as opposed to theoretical) material going
back before 1500 BCE. The Sumerian record is of course broken, but plenty of
datable material is available from 2500 BCE onwards.

To put this in more concrete terms, let's say we got the best experts on the
subject and asked them to coach a time traveller going back 4000 years. If we
wanted to send the guy to Sumer, the experts would have a pretty good idea
*where* to send him and *what* he'd need to know linguistically and
culturally. They could not teach him well enough to make him pass as a native,
but they could teach him well enough to present himself as a trader from
foreign parts who can speak the language. With the Proto-Uralic of the same
period nobody knows which corner of Eurasia to send our time traveller to, and
there is no way to teach him even the basics like how to greet someone or how
to inquire about food or lodging.

> The biggest problem for Hungarians is the question of their very survival
> as a people.
I really don't think so. Survival is a paramount concern only in times one's
life is in genuine danger. Believe it or not, Hungarian is a major language,
and Hungary is a stable political entity. There are only a few dozen languages
spoken by more people than Hungarian, while there are thousands and thousands
spoken by fewer people, many of them genuinely endangered. Similarly, there are
thousands and thousands of ethnic/tribal/prenational political entities, and
only about two hundred have the exaltad status of possessing internationally
recognized borders.

> Why is this happening?  Because of the beliefs that Romanians have that
> Hungarians are an inferior Asiatic race, only recently descended from
> invading barbarians that do not belong in Europe--or anywhere in the world
> for that matter.
Ideologies of racial superiority and inferiority have lost all credibility.
Romania could no more appeal to these than to the Baron Samedi. Voodoo might
be a powerful force in rural Haiti, but no amount of incantation will cure an
appendicitis.

> As long as entire, well-armed nations can commit genocide because of what
> they believe of the race, ethnicity, history of other peoples--that some
> are superior to others--then entire peoples are in danger of being
> exterminated.
Racial ideology is of course a wonderful pretext, but very often no such
ideology is offered, just as most subway muggers don't pretend to be striking
a blow for social justice (though some might).

> Too few people really believe we all descend from Adam and Eve and
> we are all one.  It has to be proved first.
I don't see how chasing the mirage of Hungarian-Sumerian relationship can
serve this purpose. What it seems to be is a lie generated in response to
another similar lie, the famed "Daco-Roman continuity theory". These things
don't stand up against the harsh light of the scientific method.

Andra1s Kornai

Hi,
My name is Luis Paredes and I would like to make contacts with Peruvians
in the city or nearby or somebody who has Peruvians friends.

I have to find somebody in Budapest.

I will appreciate a lot!!

Thanks

Luis Paredes
pd. Send me E-mails to :
        

In article >,
 says...
>
>Hi George!
>Am I to understand that you are also awaiting the recipies for Gundell
>Palacsinta and Somloi Galuska?   Please advise.

Hi Aniko!

YES, PLEASE!

Regards,

--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 *** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list! Global service ***

In article >, Aniko Dunford
> writes:

>Why Sam!   Are you a closet Hungarian Language Student?
>Very good! And even the spelling of the words are correct!  Hmmm??
>Aniko

Actually, I mispelled hemorrhage. And, yes, I am studying the language
this summer.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Slide some of that recipe action this way, ladies. Stowe ne' says
she's willing to try and make some of this stuff. By the way, George
Anthony said Hungarians were the ones responsible for adding the fizz to
crepe batter. Interesting...When I was in Paris in the Spring of '79, all
of the little sidewalk crepe stands had bottles of soda water sitting on
their sideboards for use in the batter. Doesn't take those culinary
innovations long to cross cultural boundaries, does it? Maybe if we all
listened to our stomachs, the world would be a better place.

At 12:26 AM 5/27/96 -0400, Martha Bihari, wrote:

>Cecilia,
>
>I cannot believe that you have meant this almost entirely personal note,
>addressed to Aniko, containing over 7,000 bytes for all of us.  After
>all, not everyone is interested in gardening, manure and the like - nor
>other topics that this letter of yours contains.
>
>May I respectfully request that we all try to direct the mail ONLY to those
>who are involved in the correspondence?
>
>Thanks for your attention.
>Martha
>
>P.S.
>I am also somewhat guilty with my query about some food, that precipitated
>the arrival of the recipes.  For that, I apologize.  I asked for a _general_
>idea what they were.  I had no idea that I was going to get the recipes
>ON the list!
>
>As to the best method of disseminating recipes, by all means, let's
>exchange them, but it can be done in private.  I don't even have any
>objections against posting them with the appropriate heading:  "..... recipe"
>It is all the non-essential, foreign topics that I desire to eliminate.
>A little consideration can go a long way.

Martha is working herself into a tizzy.  Again!  She tell us that we should
keep personal mail private by making her mail to Cecilia public.  Way to go,
Martha!  Also, since Martha is a byte counter, I wonder if she knows the
number of bytes she passed on to everyone by not deleting the rest of
Cecilia's post in her post.  Now she tell us that she wants to eliminate
"all the non-essential, foreign topics" on this list.  I suggest she
eliminate some body waste and I'm sure we'll all feel better as a result.

By the way, Martha, I like reading recipes.  I also enjoy reading a few
things about gardens and manure.  I mean, I read everything you write.  But
please, no "foreign topic" cleansing.

Joe Szalai

Context for this question.

Last weekend, 60 Minutes ran a story on the author of the Turner Diaries,
the books that many militia are allegedly using as the source and reason
for the racsist stances they take. The book describes a race war of the
1990's. The author, is shown in one scene of the interview walking with
his Hungarian wife.

He then goes on to talk about the aryan nation, the other assorted
garbage about how the US should be a whtie nation, everyone readign this
gets the drift I hope.

My question,
How can he not see the contradiction? I didn't think Hungarians were
considered Aryan. Can someone enlighten me on the ethno-classification
bit here? I know the "origins" of the Hungarians and how they arrived, so
what I am looking for is the present day classification.

PS. The author has a chapter titled "The Day of the Rope" when all those
whites who have betrayed their race will be hung as well. Nice and cheery
for those of us who might be a little more open-minded about things.

Darren Purcell
Department of Geography
Florida State University

Dear Group;

Aniko Dunfords raised a good point.  What did I mean when I suggested that
when there finally a lot of computers in Romania, we might finally get
enough responses to come to a consensus of what really might be the truth of
the present period?  Her feeling was that they would all be controlled by
the government, and we would still be just getting one view.

True, if the government doesn't change, or if there is not some other effort
to get computers, etc. into Romania to different, preferably simply
generally broader portions of society.

First, there was a sizeable effort in 1990 to do the latter.  When Bishop
To"kes made a tour of the U.S., it was not just a speaking tour, but also a
fundraising tour.  Almost $1 million dollars was raised in a few weeks to
months just before, during and after his tour precisely to help put a lot
more personal computers, printers, fax machines, telephones, and
photocopiers in Romania.  This was done for several purposes: to enable a
multi-ethnic political/educational organization to function to help bring
reconciliation between among the various ethnicities and religious groups in
Romania; to present to the world alternative views of events and issues to
government propaganda; to help raise the general education and technology
level of more people, especially those who felt they had been more excluded
from educational opportunities.

Elements of the Romanian government, and private organizations like the
"Iron Guard" were reported to have taken a dim view of these things and to
have destroyed more than half of nearly $500,000 of equipment that had just
been delivered to areas in Transylvania, toward the end of Bishop To"kes
U.S. tour.  I was in San Francisco with Bishop To"kes when he received these
reports from Transylvania.

However, not all the equipment has been destroyed.  Although the initial
outpouring of financial and equipment has not been subsequently rematched at
any one time, there have been gradual contributions since then.  Some of the
subsequent contributions have been destroyed, or confiscated, also.
Nevertheless there seem to be some indications that the number of computers,
etc. staying in the hands of non-government types is slowly, very slowly
increasing.

Second, and it merely seems to me to be more likely given the slow, gradual
nature of the preceding situation, is that some day--how and when is
anyone's guess--the current government of Romania will be replaced with one
that will eventually tell the truth about this period of history.  My belief
is merely based on the apparent mortality of authoritarian regimes when a
generation of two of their strongest proponents succumb to, or are about to
succumb to, personal mortality.  Perhaps Ionescu and his friends will
discover the secret of eternal life, but Stalin didn't, Mao didn't,
Pinochet, Hitler and Mussolini didn't.  It didn't even take the death of all
the generals in Argentina to have an accounting of the reality of the
"desaparecidos."  All it took was a temporary overthrow of Pol Pot to belie
the earlier claims of the Khmer Rouge that their atrocities were "greatly
exaggerated."

It took 40 years to learn of what Stalin had done 40 years before.  How long
did it take before people, including Russians accepted the reality of the
extent of the gulags, or in the case of China the laogai.  How many years
did the Jews in the U.S. and Britain spend trying to convince those nations
that the Jewish community was indeed about to be, and then was being, massacred
?

Thus, although it's just my personal opinion, I do believe that the day we
see a whole lot of computers all over Romania (not just in one area or among
one group), whether it be by gradual acceptance of more and more from
outside groups, or a change of heart and activity by the government, that we
all will finally be presented with the full story and truth of the present
period.  I'm  equally sure, however, that as with every other event in
history, there will always be some who say, I still don't believe it. That's
their right, and it's fine with me so long as they don't try to deny me my
right to believe something differently.

Sincerely,


Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA




N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Group;

I have just been informed that gardening is not a fit subject for discussion
in the HUNGARY group.  My sincere apologies to all who were offended.
Having grown up in a family where gardening seemed to be much more intensely
practiced and enjoyed in my father's Hungarian family than it was in my
mother's family, and being related to some of the people that founded
Hungary's first agricultural college, I apparently made a mistaken
assumption that this avocation was part of Hungary's if any people's culture.

It seems to an insignificant non-cultural item, relegated only to as Count
Michael Karolyi put it in his first autobiography (before he ended up in
exile), "those stupid southwestern Hungarians who don't see how important
his mother's soirees to discuss the political milieu really are, and prefer
to spend as much time getting mud on their boots among the peasants, or
more,   than attending his mother's or the imperial court."

Again, I'm sorry. I didn't realize it wasn't part of Hungarian culture, that
only politics and other intellectual subjects are.

Is there perhaps another forum around that covers the other endeavors that
some Hungarians might practice as avocations or hobbies, and might consider
worth sharing?  Perhaps a Hungarian "rennaissance persons" forum where
people who grew up more like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington, rather
than like Karl Marx, Lenin, or Goebbels, learning to appreciate and explore
all kinds of things in life, might be congregating?  This forum seems to be
the "political-intellectual discussions only" forum.  If one is interested
in a lot of things, this seems to be the wrong place.

I promise I won't bring up any non-political, non political-intellectual
topics again after this posting, on this group, without some strong
indication that the rest of the forum thinks one or another subject is fit
for group inclusion.

Sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker
San Jose, CA






N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

As far as I'm concerned you can post non-political stuff to this newsgroup,
Cecilia.  Although I'm very interested in political issues, I'm also an
avid gardener and a trained chef.  Just because I post to political ideas or
issues does not mean that I'm one dimentional.  Don't allow Martha Bihari
to set the agenda for this group.  By the way, I'm not going to allow you
to set the agenda either.  But, by all means, keep on posting.  Sometimes
I don't read everything you write and most often I disagree with you.
But then I wouldn't be interseted in reading only those posts that I
agree with.  I don't mind getting pissed off at writers once in a while.
It keeps the blood flowing and the brain active.

Joe Szalai

HMMMM, and I thought things were slow on the list because I was in my
Kert. Use the delete button folks and don't tell anyone that a
disscussion of a garden and desserts/recipes is not a valid subject.

I thought I left abject censorship in Szlovakia and Kolozsvar.

Szervusztok

Darren

HMJMM, technolgy gurantees freedom, or does it serve only the group that
posseses it? I didn';t know Tokes got a million to enlighten to
facilitate only the Magyar minority in romania.

Perhaps I am falling into the pro-romania portion of my life, but were
these pieces of technology to be shared or only used to combat the idiots
in Cluj and Bucharest? Looking forward to the responses from those in the
know.

Darren Purcell
Department of Geography
Florida State University

Dear All:

There are now seven new requests for these recipes on my Email since this
morning.  I think that this might be a quicker way to get it to all than
privately.  Source:  104 Hires Magyar Recept - Marosi La'szlo'ne' (szerkezto)
                                                   - Luka'cs Istva'n
(recipies) Oscar-winning
masterchef  - Main Masterchef at Atrium Hyatt
                                                     No date.

Copyright:  My book, I can share if I want to - right?

Disclaimer:  The sender of these recipies is under no circumstance
responsible for: sudden surges in blood sugar levels, cholesterol levels,
immediate weight gain or overindulgence of alcohol!

The sender will, however take full responsibility and credit for any/all
good things that might come to be as a direct result of making and enjoying
them. (Selfish, little thing this sender ha?)

Please Note:  The people having already received these by private Email - I
found an error in the Gundell Filling.  (It's identified by *) ... so sorry!
>
>Somloi Galuska:
>
>Need 1 piskota, (10egg) and one chococlate piskota, (5egg) sugar
water/compound, yellow cream, chocolate sauce and whippingcream
>
>Piskota:
>10 eggs - seperate
>200 gm - sugar
>250 gm - flour
>2 tsp    - vanilla
>Grated lemon peel of one lemon
>
>Method:
>
>Beat egg whites stiff - set aside
>Beat egg yolks for at least five min @ high
>Gradually add sugar, vanilla, lemon peel - beat til pale yellow
>Fold in flour
>Divide batter in two and pour each into a floured/greased cake pan.
>Bake at 350-375 for 20 min?  Cool.
>
>Chocolate Piskota
>5 eggs - seperated
>100 gm - sugar
>100 gm - flour
>25 gm - cocoa
>Follow above instructions.  Don't need to separate.  Bake in one pan.
>Cool, set aside
>
>Sugar/water compound
>500gm sugar
>7 dl water
>2 lemons grated peel
>2 dl rum
>
>Boil first three - add rum, cool, set aside
>
>Yellow Cream:
>1 l milk
>150 gm flour
>150 gm sugar
>20 gm gelatin
>8 egg yolks
>8 egg whites
>
>Make cream, as you would pudding.  (*For those who never have:  Mix milk,
sugar flour gelatin and cook over a double boiler constantly stirring, until
sauce thinkens slightly.  Remove some of the sauce into a bowl.  Mix with
egg yolks and pour back into top of double boiler.  Continue cooking and
constant stirring until pudding like consistancy.  Cool.  Beat egg whites.
Fold into yolk mixture.  At this point, you may add anything you desire to
this:  Raisins soaked in rum, nuts, fruit, chocolate chips, - use your
imagination.  The standard is either plain or rum soaked raisins.  I have
once tried it with Chestnut Puree added to this sauce.  It was good, but
made it very heavy.
>
>Chocolate Sauce:
>200 gm chocolate
>300 gm water
>50 gm rum
>Make sauce, add rum, allow to cool a bit.
>
>In a deep, trifle like bowl, place 1/2 piskota on bottom.  Using 1/3 of the
sugar liquid, douce piskota.  Take 1/3 cream mixture and spread over.
Take chocolate piskota and layer over cream.  Douce with 1/3 of sugar
liquid, followed by 1/3 of the cream.  Next is piskota again, douce with
remaining liquid, spread remaining cream.  Sprinkle with cocoa powder and
allow to set for at least one hour.
>
>When serving; scoop onto plate; pour chocolate sauce over/ adorn with
whipped cream (real stuff).
>
>Bon Apetit.
>
>Gundell Palacsinta:
>
>Prepare the crepes of your liking - set aside
Note:  I tend to lean with George's variety of course.
>
>Filling:
>500g walnuts - ground
>300 g sugar *icing sugar
>2 dl - whipping cream
>1.5dl rum
>50gm raisins.
>
>Soak raisins in rum at least 30 min.
>Mix dry ingredients pour whippin cream over, and mix well. Add raisins and rum
>Let sit for a few minutes.
>
>Chocolate Sauce
>250 g icing sugar
>200 g chocolate
>50 g cocoa powder
>5 egg yolks
>5 dl milk and 2 dl whipping cream mixed
>1 dl rum
>1/2 stick of vanilla
>
>Mix icing sugar and yolks. Gradually stir in milk/cream add chocolate.
Cook over a double boiler while stirring constantly.  Add rum last.
>
>Method:  Take a crepe - scoop around 2-3 tbs filling.  Fold in triangles.
Pour hot chocolate sauce over it - generous amount...

*Optional; garnish with whipped cream (sweet and vanilla) - the real kind.
>
>Bon Apetit and Enjoy Enjoy!!
With best wishes for great success!
Aniko

>
>
>
>
>
>
>

>From Grolier's Multimedia Encyclopedia, 1993

GENOCIDE:
{jen'-uh-syd}
Genocide (Greek genos, "race," and Latin cide, "killing") is the persecution
or destruction of a national, racial, or religious group.  Years before the
word "genocide" was coined by the Polish-American scholar Raphael Lemkin in
1944, genocide was practiced by the Russians in their pogroms against the
Jews, by the Turks, who slaughtered thousands of Armenians, and by the
German Nazis, who systematically killed ethnic groups including Jews, Poles,
and Gypsies.  A more recent example is the slaughtering (1972-79) of various
tribal groups by the former president of Uganda Idi AMIN DADA.  In 1945 the
NUREMBERG Tribunal, which tried Nazi war criminals, declared that
persecution of racial and religious groups was a crime under international
law.  In 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations approved the
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which
took effect in 1951. The nations that ratified the convention agreed that
genocide was a matter of international concern, even if committed by a
government within its own territory.  Any nation can ask the United Nations
to take action to prevent or suppress acts of genocide.  The United States
is a signatory of the Genocide Convention, but the U.S.  Senate, which is
reluctant to subject American citizens to the jurisdiction of any
international tribunal, for many years refused to ratify it;  it finally did
so in 1986.
Bibliography:  Drost, P.  N., Genocide (1969);  Horowitz, Irving L., Taking
Lives:  Genocide and State Power, 3d ed. (1981);  Walliman, Isidor, and
Dobkowski, Michael, Genocide and the Modern Age (1987)
AE0M, Tony Becker -  - Silicon Valley, U.S.A.

Dear Szalai,

thanks for your declaration of love. For a week now I was considering just
filing it away with the rest of my fan mail, since I understand that those
are your opinions, and if you never had the opportunity to learn how to
express yourself in a civilized way, who can blame you?
What made me change my mind was that, upon re-reading your posting, I felt
that I can't ignore the total ignorance of your own character. A person
whose every second word is an insult, surely can't believe that he
"EMBRACES all the challenges that life gives.  Gives full and unconditional
support to all peoples who are trying to rid the world of prejudice and
hate. You (I) seems to wallow in it."
Do you really think that the only way to get rid of the world of prejudice
and hate is by physically eliminating all your enemies? You are a typical
paranoiac who sees threats where there are people who want to help.
You use expressions intended to insult, and you don't realize that you are
insulting yourself. If you say I am boring, don't you realize that that
puts me into very good company? And who cares what bores you? If you see
it's boring, don't read it. If a large segment of our members would tell me
that I am boring, I would line myself up with Milton and Thackaray and Paul
Johnson, but, unlike them, I would stop writing.
That I am so cocksure of myself and of what my opinion is, is totally
wrong, but if that's how I sound, I am going against one of my own
principles, which is not to coerce or persuade anybody of something they
don't naturally profess. I will mend my ways.
You say I am homophobic. First of all, homophobic is a bastard word, it
does not mean really anything. What you want to say is " phobic against
homosexuals", which I am simply not..  But I am, up to a point,
anthropophobic, an attitude one develops with age and a lot of experience
and by just having one's eyes open. You feel, that when I say "in tune with
my age", being angry all the time, that you are very much superior, because
you are not angry, yet also reached a certain age.  If you are not angry
then you must accept all the unfairness, the inequities, the
discrimination, the genocide, the prejudices, etc. which exist in this
world, and against which neither insults nor your unconditional support
will make a damn bit of difference.
You suggest Geritol, and you seem to have good results with it. I would
nearly say that you should cut down on it a bit, your junior high school
level behavior might be the result of overdose.
You berate me for bringing my (English) wife into this Hungarian matter.
English is not my first, nor my second, nor my third, nor my fourth, but my
fifth language. It's her first language. So it is only natural that I often
ask for her editing aspecially in grammar and syntax, but also in correct
use of words. She is VERY unhappy, for not seeing that "despise" word.
Besides, she seems to me a better Hungarian than you are.
Finally, my use of a quote from one of the highest regarded Hungarian poets
gets your goat. Well, it may be considered corny, but it expresses my
feelings exactly, just as it would reflect the feelings of other nations,
like American, Canadian, Rumanian, Slovak, Bosniak Serb, Bosnian Muslim,
Chroatian, German, Japanese, etc. . One is what one is, you know.  I was
thirty-five when I left Hungary, and there are an awful lot of things I
can't shed. Not just paprika, palacsinta and porkolt, but for instance that
I can only enjoy "futball "(called soccer here, because they applied
"football" to a hate game which is not even played with feet) and in
general  aggressive games leave me only angry. Baseball is OK, except that
I never learnt to understand it.
There. Now I can go back to my normal daily gripes.

Csipkay Karoly

As promised, I am finally getting around to addressing some of the finer
points of your note.  (as you can see, my priorities do tend to take me back
to the root of my culture - the part that thrives on 'feeding others'? ;-)?)

At 02:29 PM 5/24/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Dear Aniko;
<snip>
>Right now, Hungary is doing better economically, and attracting more
>international investment money than the rest.
Agreed, but this process has been evident since the late seventies - early
eighties.

>It has better manufactured
>goods, and at generally better prices for Romanians and Slovakians than
>those of most of West Europe.
Agreed.  But, I must add that it has been my observation that the attraction
was mostly utilized by the  Italians, Austrians and Germans.  As for
Romanians and Slovakians - my observation; it's been the Hungarians who have
been involved with utilizing the best purchasing power by travelling to
those countries.

>Hungary has more food.
Agreed again.  In fact the Romanians and Slovakians travelling to Hungary do
so with the only intent of being able to acquire the food unavailable in
their own countries.  But it does not explain, why the Hungarians would
travel to these countries to enjoy savings themselves.

>Unfortunately their generally friendly attitudes are the minority yet--if
>they weren't more of them would be in Romania, dis-electing the kind of
>majority in the Romanian parliament that keeps trying to eliminate the
>Hungarians in that country.  There are friendly Romanians in the U.S. also.
>I know quite a few, and count one as a very good friend.  However, even
>though this friend is a director of "Casa Romana," even he has said he would
>be unable to guarantee the safety of _any_ Hungarian walking into that
>building because of _the majority_ of its members.  Now that's in the
>generally regarded as tolerant U.S..  How much worse is it away from the
>U.S. network news cameras, hmmm?
Not being a politician, a historian or a statistician, I am at a great
disadvantage re above.  I do however have a great deal of problems
identifying with it; or for that matter understanding it.  Especially when
considering the affairs of Temesvar.
  >
>If the Romanians in the U.S.--in front of television cameras, can't restrain
>their attitudes and impulses to humiliate and get rid of us, do you really
>think they are any better in Romania?
Good point.  Perhaps those American Romanians ought to have been in Romania,
wittnessing the course of events for themselves, prior to reacting to that,
which they are being told via sensored news? - just guessing here!

>We're merely tolerated because we temporarily can give them access to money,
>trade, and better manufactured goods, as well as food.  That's all.  As soon
>as Serbia, Romania, and Slovakia figure they can get along without us--that
>they have more interest from the business community than we (after all both
>Serbia and Romania are both geographically and population-market larger...),
>then it's bye-bye Hungary.  If it took the West and the U.S. four years to
>rescue less than one half of Bosnia--and its population, when Bosnia was
>just being attacked by Serbia, just how likely does any one think any
>Hungarians will be left by the time the West finally decides to do something
>if Slovakia, Romania and Serbia--all three together (certainly much more
>formidable, intimidating and risky for our boys, etc.)--decide to ethnically
>cleanse the coveted topography of the Danube Basin, which they will no doubt
>claim because of "prior ownership before the Asian invaders?"
Oh boy Cecilia!  I wouldn't touch this para with a ten foot pole in my
possession, given the lack of knowledge I possess.  But... I could argue
'till doomsday utilizing a logistical approach.
>
<snip>
>As for why Hungarians allow Romanians, Slovakians etc. to enter the country.
>I think this is one of those situations that psychologists refer to as
>"co-dependency."  If we didn't allow the merchants, etc. in, despite their
>attitudes, the situation for our minorities would probably be even worse
>than it is.
Ok, here I must add a correction!  Never did I intend to insinuate that they
should not be allowed.  I was only using that scenario in answer to your
previous post... thinking that if your information is indeed based on facts,
the Hungarian Government would surely step in order to protect it's interest
and the interest of it's people.  Very strongly put... I have no objection
to Romanians being in the country.  Quite the contrary.  Romanian Hungarians
have suffered terrifble injustices through the passing of time.  They
deserve all the assistance and backing they can get; and I can only wish
that somehow a productive dialogue could be established between the
countries to allow for just that - peaceful co existance and mutual respect
of all!

> As for the ones who stay longer.  They stay because they don't
>buy the baloney that the majority in their countries seems to, which makes
>it uncomfortable for them to stay.  Finally, Hungarians have always had a
>generous spirit to those who really do like or accept us, and look at people
>more as individuals than just an ethnicity.
Now you're talking!  And mirroring an image of at least the small group of
Hungarians that I am in constant touch with.  (I could interpret this also,
as a retraction of the statement I am in high objection with of yours... but
I'm afraid that I am still awaiting you to do that instead!)

>Hungarians will exist longer than the country of Hungary, as the Jews did
>when there was no Israel, and the Poles did when there was no Poland.
>However, if we lose the country and then have to regain it, we as a people
>will be forever altered, and maybe not all for the good, as both the Poles
>and Israelis have been.  It would be better not to the lose the country at
>all, but I'm doubtful, given the past 75 years, that that will happen.  The
>trend is simply not in that direction, yet.  That doesn't mean that a few of
>us are trying to change that, it just hasn't happened yet, and we don't know
>if we'll succeed at all.
I cannot agree with you here.  I have far more faith in Hungary, it's people
and it's gusto to even for one second allow myself to think this way.  Sorry :-
(

>Thanks for asking.
Thanks for answering
>>
Regards,
Aniko
>

Dear Martha

At 01:45 AM 5/27/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Dear Aniko,
>
>While it is true that many families have been separated as a direct
>result of '56, it is also true that many people were able to start a new
>life in democratic countries, and enjoy a never-before possible freedom.
>
>I hope that you agree, that in order to get the whole picture, we must flip
>the coin to see the other side of it.
Absolutely! Which pinpoints precisely one reason, that would explain as to
why I get irate and heavy hearted  when reading the good ol'Doc and his avid
followers' words.  They themselves are beneficiaries of the very window of
opportunity you speak of ... while in the same breath, they demean, deface
and undermine all efforts extended on their behalves by any/all others;
whose persons and families have endured all sorts of negative setbacks.  All
in the name of a lousy word and it's definition.  (Like anybody cares? And
those that do; let's have a knock 'em down serious fight over the definition
of sweet and sugar instead.  At least a fight like that, would not serve to
demean or deface past efforts of humas and their emotions).
>
>My family will always be grateful for that unexpected little window of
>opportunity that made it possible for us to live in our adoptive countries.
>(the plural is intended)  It takes nothing away from our heritage, that
>we don't ever intend to conceal or deny, and instilled in our children as
>well.  But it gave us, and the next generation(s) a chance for a far better
>quality of life.  Nobody can hold that against us.
Agreed.  And the point I was attempting make was '56 happenned, it's now
history.  Let's learn from it.  While never forgetting and most specifically
never demeaning or defacing the sacrifices extended by all those who are no
longer here; or are still here; but with an entirely different life that
perhaps their individual dreams would have allowed for otherwise...  And, I
still think that Andras' closing para and closing statement says it all in a
way that I could never..

Aniko

At 12:58 AM 5/27/96 -0400, you wrote:
>In article >, Aniko Dunford
> writes:
>
>>Why Sam!   Are you a closet Hungarian Language Student?
>>Very good! And even the spelling of the words are correct!  Hmmm??
>>Aniko
>
>Actually, I mispelled hemorrhage. And, yes, I am studying the language
>this summer.
>Sam Stowe
Hi Sam, Again!!!
Actually, I was honing in only on your Hungarian words ;-)
And good luck!  Can't wait to get some correspondence from you on the group
in Hungarian!  (Will make for some interesting 'flaming' times ha?)  Okok...
just kidding.  Really good luck!
>
>P.S. -- Slide some of that recipe action this way, ladies. Stowe ne' says
>she's willing to try and make some of this stuff.
You got it!  Tell Stowene', it's not nearly as difficult as it looks in words!
>
>By the way, George
>Anthony said Hungarians were the ones responsible for adding the fizz to
>crepe batter. Interesting...When I was in Paris in the Spring of '79, all
>of the little sidewalk crepe stands had bottles of soda water sitting on
>their sideboards for use in the batter.
Oh yes but my dear!  You have not heard?  That France has taken total credit
for the 'invention' of crepes!?!  - I think it's selective memory along with
the utilization of easier written and pronounced words ... palacsinta ... is
so much harder!    And... I also think that it deserves a tad of research
following our tums or not? ;-).

Aniko.

Aniko Dunford wrote:

> When considering the relevance of the proper usage of one lousy word to
> today's survival, the whole discussion becomes ridiculous if not entirely
> demeaning to human progress.  Countless lives have been altered as a result
> of '56.  Countless families have been broken, countless people are stranded
> all over the world, many of whom have nor will ever have any connection to
> anything solid regarding culture, parents, family, roots.  Sacrificies have
> been made, that many of us can and never will begin to even remotely fathom,
> while many of the same of us continue to pay the price by simply having been
> born.
>
> When considering the above, which are indeed facts from a different angle
> than discussed prior, what exactly is rationalizing or even debating '56
> going to ever solve? Especially when realizing that the entire debate is
> based on proper utilization of one word ?

Aniko's lines probably reflect the sentiments of many other
readers.  I have a suspicion that all this temperamental Magyar
argumentation about an issue as small as how to call the events of
1956 is immensely puzzling for most readers, including Hungarians
living in the West, who are not familiar with the current Hungarian
politics.  What needs to be understood is that, despite the facade,
the debate is not about wording and not about the past.  It is about
power and the present, part and parcel of the current political struggle
in Hungary.

In the broad context, the collapse of the ancien regimes in the Soviet
Empire found the political right in Hungary totally unprepared.  The
political right has long had an image problem in that its extreme wing was
totally discredited 50 years ago and the moderate section, as much as there
was of it, had a split personality.  The leftist Communists were the main
enemy, hence everybody on the left was an enemy.  In contrast, the centre
right perceived the extreme right as politically preferable to anybody on
the left, on the basis of 'my enemy's enemy is my friend'.  The right could
claim no popular heroes from the past (even the likes of Endre Bajcsy-
Zsilinszky were too far to the left for most) and had no deeds against the
Kadar regime to point to.  Particularly the young intellectuals of the
centre left have been involved in some DOMESTIC resistance to the
consolidated Kadar regime (primarily samizdat publications and criticism of
the regime in the official media to the extent possible).  At the same
time, manifestations of the extreme right were firmly curtailed by the
Kadar regime and the centre right limited its manifestations to wine-cellar
grumblings.

The fall of the old regime gave the political pendulum a good shove, and
the amorphous right gained power under the leadership of the unknown but
statemanlike Antall who mixed anti-Communist rhetoric with promises of a
calm and painless transition, in contrast to the centre (left and right)
that mainly called for radical economic transformation.  Four years of
economic muddle-on followed, punctuated by the shake-out of the political
right.  Free from the restrictions under the old regime and supported by
their emigree comrades, the extreme right made a dash for hearts and minds.
In the process it made the position of the centre right impossible, as the
latter, in its reluctance to define itself against the extreme, kept
association with the uglies too long.  This is mainly due to there being a
unity of minds on the right about the perceived main issue: undoing the
injustice of Trianon and helping Hungarians in neighbouring countries.  In
contrast, the right has no answers for the current economic and political
problems WITHIN Hungary.  Realization of the latter amplified the swing
back of the pendulum and determined the outcome of the next election.
Incredulity on the right about the reformed Communists knock-out win was
followed by squabbles and further fragmentation.

The right is desperate.  Not content to wait for the inevitable electoral
swing back and unable to offer credible alternative policies to the current
social-democrat direction, it is groping for heroes.  While an objective
examination of the pre-WWII Horthy regime shows it much less of a villain
than painted by the Communists, it is still too tainted for the hero role.
1956 is left as the only claim for political fame for the right on domestic
issues.

The problem is that during the few days of the 1956 events the people who
reached prominence mostly cannot be claimed by the right.  Most riling for
the right is that the best-known leaders and martyrs of 1956 (e.g., Nagy,
Maleter) were from the Communist establishment.  For sure, many leaders of
the right (Antall, Csurka, Torgyan) played a role in 1956 and suffered in
the revenge.  Their role was minor, however, and they were not martyred.
Eventually, they made their private peace with Kadar - as have most
Hungarians.

The rights answer to this is to make 1956 look bigger than Ben Hur, so
that anyone who claims association with it can also claim hero status.
Part of this myth making is the rights insistence on calling 1956 a
'freedom fight', rather than the term typically used in Hungary,
'revolution'.  'Revolution' is passe as it has too much of a leftist
flavour to it.  If 1956 was a freedom fight, everybody associated with it
is automatically a freedom fighter, which does not sound like a Che
Guevara's-comrade-in-arm revolutionary.  Just refer to all those
Hungarian Freedom Fighters' Associations that have very few members who
actually fought in 1956.  With due respect to those who did, it must be
pointed out that what IS called freedom fight in Hungarian, that of 1848-
49, was a fight magnitudes bigger than that in 1956.  The irony is that if
we were to call 1956 a freedom fight on grounds of fight against foreign
domination, we would sooner have to apply the term to the war fought by the
(Communist) Hungarian Council Republic in 1919.

Storm in a teacup, you may say.  Yes, but then in highly-charged politics
apparently minor issues of syntax can assume disproportionate signficance.
If you recall the history of the Christian church, a single i was enough
for creating the schism.

George Antony

I have not been picnining but I had a few visitors today and thus I
was unable to sit down for a few minutes to answer some of the interesting
postings. Don't worry--especially those who are so keen on hearing my
opinions (;))--I will. Here, I just want to write down an impression after
reading George Antony's fabulous piece on the afterthoughts of the 1956
revolution. How lucky we are to have such contributions on this list. It is
beautifully put and very, very true. Thank you, George!

        Eva Balogh

I am pretty well informed about the situation in Romania. I never heard of
mass destruction of computers anywhere. However, there are several sites
(Internet) in Romania where Hungarians from Romania are beginning to appear
on the net (they do appear at HIX sites). Among them: the Soros site in
Kolozsvar, various university sites in Kolozsvar (and other cities), several
commercial sites (similar to AOL, netcom, etc.) where anyone who can afford
it can join the Internet at various levels.

Gabor D. Farkas

Since I have in my possession the Gundel's Hungarian Cookbook (Corvina
Kiado, 1990), and since the receipes Aniko published dis not exactly follow
the published ones, I volunteered to copy the Gundel Palacsinta recipe:

For the crepe (9-12 pieces):

2 egges
3/4 cup (2dl) milk
 1 1/4 cups (240g) semolina  flour
3/4 cup  (2dl) milk or soda water
salt or sugar (optional)
1/2 cup (100g) lard

To obtain a very thin crepe mix the cold milk and eggs with a wire wisk,
slowly add the flour and keep on mixing. When the dough is very smooth, add
more milk or soda water until a cream-like consistency is obtained. If you
wish to use a salty filling, add a pinch of salt to the dough. If sweet
filling is used, 10g  (1tbsp) of sugar should be added but this will
increase the risk of the crepe sticking to the pan.
Melt the lard in a small saucepan. Heat a well-cleaned crepe pan. Add 1/2
teaspoon of lard to the crepe pan and swirl to coat the pan. Pour the rest
of the lard back into the saucepan. Pour about 1 dl (1/2 cup) dough into the
hot crepe pan, swirl it around, fry over high heat, shaking the pan all the
time. The dough should separate from the pan. Fry for 5 more seconds then
turn and fry the other side too.  If the crepe breaks or doesn't stay
together, add an egg or flour to the mixture. If it's too thick, thin with
soda water.

Filing:
2/3 cup (1.5dl) rum
2 2/3 tbsp (40g) raisins
2 tbsp (20g) candied orange peel
1 1/2 cups (180 g) chopped walnuts
1/2 cup (1dl) heavy cream
1/2 cup (120g) sugar)
powdered cinnamon

Soakl the raisins and finely slivered orange peel in rum for 24 hours. Grate
the walnuts, but not too finely. Bring the cream to a boil, add the sugar,
nuts, a pinch of cinnamon and drained raisins, the orange ppel and cook it
into  paste (if necessary add a little milk). Let the mixture cool partially
and add half the rum. Place the filling in a line on each crepe and roll it
up. Keep the crepes warm.

Syrup:
1 cup+2tbsp (2.5dl) milk
vanilla
2 tbsp (30g) sugar
1/2 cup (100g) chocolate
2/3 cup (1.5dl) heavy cream
3 egg yolks
1/2 cup (30g) cocoa
2 tbsp (15g) flour
4 tbsp (5cl) milk

Boil the milk with the vanilla. Melt the chocolate in a small dish on the
oven. Whip in the heavy cream. With a wire wisk mix the flour and cocoa; add
the cold milk and whip it until it is smooth and foamy. Mix in the melted
chocolate, slowly wisk in the hot milk; heat to boiling point, but do not
allow to boil. remove from heat and stir until it cools down somewhat.
Carefully fold in the whipped cream and remaining rum. The syrup should not
be too sweet. Some confectioner's suggar can be added if the chocolate is
not sweet enough.

Copied by
Gabor D. Farkas

George:

Wow!  Now that, takes on an entirely different aura!  Thanks for a great
clarification. Very informative and greatly appreciated...but...

At 02:30 PM 5/27/96 +1000, you wrote:
> What needs to be understood is that, despite the facade,
>the debate is not about wording and not about the past.  It is about
>power and the present, part and parcel of the current political struggle
>in Hungary.
In layman terms, I have no problems with the entire contents of your
explanation, The part that really bothers me... rather than begin the debate
with a maliciously demeaning posting, why is it impossible to spell out
background, intents and intended requests from the beginning, lay all cards
on the table so to say?

Rather than resorting to accussation, followed by dragging people's past
involvements with '56 into the picture in a most demeaning fashion; ie the
attack on E.Balogh's involvement, Liptak's ... to site a few names we are
all familiar with.  Let alone the many others whom the topic will
undoubtadly end up reaching and resulting in who will ever know what?  I
guess I must be a pure idealist/dreamer, and a very naive one at that.  For
the approach having been utilized in this thread makes about as much sense
to me as jumping into the North Atlantic Ocean in the middle of January with
a dental floss to pose as my cover, that would protect my bawd from the weather
.

Having said all that, your closing words (which btw are classic) probably
answers it all?
.
Thanks again for taking the time for composing your explanation.  It helped
a lot.

Regards,
Aniko

Dear Gabor:

Thanks for the "original" recipe!  It sounds great.  I'll try it the next
time, and will let you know, which the gang prefers (after this weekend)...
since I already made the only other I kow tonight - btw - Janos, yours is
still in the fridge.  Are ya coming, or what?

Regards,
Aniko
>

Just one or two comments on Gabor's palacsinta recipe: using a wire whisk
is a fine old-world practice, but for the uncouth Americans among us a
blender will work just as well.  It is one of those shortcuts that makes
it possible to do the whole thing in half an hour.

Also, if you add a spoonful or two of oil to the batter then you don't
need to use any oil in the pan (lard? you can't be serious).  And what
is this business about a "well-cleaned crepe pan"?  Cleaning a crepe pan
is sacrilege.  A properly seasoned crepe pan only needs to be wiped with
a few drops of oil after every use.  Mine has not seen any water or
dishwashing liquid in over ten years.  Works like a charm.  I promised
my daughter a palacsinta dinner tonight, so I'm logging off...

-----
Gabor Fencsik

Joe,

You asked me a legitimate question.  Here I am to explain the
reason for my actions.

As you should well know, I never "flame."  This was not the first
time that I attempted to request that she moderate her posts.
I did it all in private.  There was never a reply, a reasoning.

This time it was the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's
back."  My cup runneth over.  Here was a letter with all sorts of
information that belonged in a personal correspondence.  Were I
to query Cecilia directly, I would have had dead silence as a
reply.  BTW, I sent it to her, as well as to the list.  I also
wanted you all to be able to see the justification for my reaction.

Please tell me if this post was RELEVANT to many things that were
discussed up to that time.  It was full of me, Me, ME...  For
some time now it's been a continuous list of: MY studies, MY
health problems, MY computer, MY friends, MY garden, MY
bookshelves, MY family - ad nauseam.  To a single person, to a
group of close friends, these are every day topics.  But to a
list of hundreds - hardly!  They couldn't be more tedious, and -
let's be honest ! - utterly boring!

I would never intend to "entertain" any of you of the account of
MY accident; (just four weeks ago) MY family, (I, too, have one,
you know?) MY education, (I possess that, too!) MY friends (I have
them also) MY books, MY garden, etc., etc.  If I do say anything
about them, they stay out of the *public* discussions, as they
should.

I was fully aware of the contents of my post.  Yes, it included
the FULL letter that was posted to the list by Cecilia.  Small
wonder that it was wordy!  By now, you all should have noticed
that I regularly eliminate all the unnecessary quotes from my
posts and that I am not in the habit of writing ream after ream.
I don't have the time to READ them, let alone write that much.

So, I snapped.  I am happy I did!  It is finally out in the open;
it will not give me indigestion in the future.  I will not repeat
it; I will not belabor it.  Now I relax and can go on with my
life.

If you and most others on the list prefer to have that kind of
exchange instead of some substance, be it!  It will not bother
me, if that is the *concensus.*  As long as there is an under-
standing to that effect.  I don't expect to set up rules, as I am
only one little cog in a big machine.  I will abide by the wishes
of the majority.

While I have your attention, Joe, your versatility never ceases
to amaze me.  You are a librarian, if I remember right.  Now it
turns out that you are a trained chef and a great gardener.  A
Jack of all trades!  It must be nice!  Tell me please: in which
one of these are you a master?

Thanks for reading.
Martha

On Mon, 27 May 1996, Aniko Dunford wrote:

>      ... '56 happenned, it's now
> history.  Let's learn from it.

Amen, Aniko!
Martha