A "kioktato" stilus bantja bulgariai baratunkat, az Ivan
Marinov magyar fedonev alatt iro Maximilian Valenski-t ,
aki a kobor apacak megtevesztesere az alabbi
Mormon-hivatkozast iktatja alairasaba:
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ivan Marinov
E-Mail: 
The Book of Mormon - a testament of another Jesus.
---------------------- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Persze Ivan "jobboldalinak" is toditja magat (Ivanbol
eleg keves jobboldalit lathattunk...), sot olyan erdekes
javaslata van, hogy a jobboldalisag Isten segitsegevel
magatol gyozedelmeskedik, tehat pl. a "Nemzet"-re semmi
szukseg nincs.

Az ilyen -bulgar vecehez hasonlo primitivsegu- provoka-
torokrol tan nem is art kisse "oktato" stilusban cikkezni,
nehogy valaki tan beugorjon nekik.

Minthogy atlatszo ugyetlenkedeset egy fordulo utan valasz
nelkul hagytam, ilyeten maganlevelet eresztett meg:

- - - -
From:  (Ivan Marinov)
Subject: felelem???

Kedves szerkeszto!

Mivel a soc.culture.magyar-ban, valoszinuleg felelembol, nem valaszoltal,
ezert most szeretnem neked megadni a lehetoseget, hogy szemelyesen irj. Ime
a valaszcikkem:  [kozli scm-ben is megjelent valaszcikket]
- - -

Hat... ha eppen akarja ... am legyen! Ezt valaszoltam al-magyar, al-bulgar
al-jobboldali al-Mormon baratunknak: [jobboldalisag, Mormonsag, ellent-
mondasok cim alatt]"

- - -
Kedves Marinov Ur!

Nem szivesen levelezek olyasvalakivel, aki jobboldali es/vagy
Mormon szinben tunteti fel magat, de szamomra egyik sem
tulzottan hiheto.

Mormonokat jobboldalinak ismerem, es tisztelem oket. Bizony
nem csak nincs kifogasom, de hatarozottan szeretnem, hogy
a magyar kozeletben es politikumban ereztessek jo hatasukat.

Onnek viszont egyik alaptetele (elso irasa szerint), hogy a
jobboldalisagot nem kell hirdetni, stb., hanem azt egyszeruen
Istenre kell hagyni, minthogy az "termeszetes modon magatol
gyozedelmeskedik".  Kisebb baj, hogy ebben en nem hiszek.
Nagyobb, hogy az igazi Mormonok sem! Pontosan tudom,
hogy a Mormon vallas rendkivul aggressziv (jo ertelemben)
es eppen a modern technika (szamitogepek, stb) segitseget
nagyban is kihasznalja vallasanak es a jobboldalisagnak
programszeru es eroteljes terjesztesere. En is ezt csinalom,
s ebben ugy tunik sokkal jobb Mormon vagyok, mint On.

Ha On a magyarorszagi Mormon jobboldali es vallasos
programokra, a kozelet mocskossaga elleni valodi (es rend-
kivul tiszteletre melto!) Mormon harcra hivatkozna, abban
resze lenne, hitelet nalam (is) meg tudna alapozni.  Sot, meg
akkor is lenne hitele, ha a Bulgar tarsadalomban fejtene ki
a Mormonok altal megkovetelt misszios tevekenyseget.

Hiteltelennek latom azonban mind magyarorszagi, mind
bulgariai jobboldalisagat, Mormonsagat, sot meg Interneten
valo szerepleseinek kuszasagat is, s e hiteltelenseg meg-
gatolja, hogy elmelyult beszelgetesbe tudjak Onnel bocsatkozni.

Feluletesre, felrevezetore pedig nincs idom.

Tisztelettel:

Joseph Toth
editor
- - -

Persze Provokator Ivan habozas nelkul lehozta a maganlevelet
(tormelekkent) nyilvanosan, a maganlevliro minden megkerdezese
nelkul. Igy latott napvilagot a "Valasz Toth Jozsefnek" irasa. Ez
persze nem lepett meg, hiszen provokaciojanak jellege orditott
kezdettol fogva. Tudjuk, hogy aki se nem magyar, se nem bulgar,
se nem jobboldali, se nem Mormon, de mindezeknek ugy adja
ki magat, hogy meg neki all foljebb, az micsoda.

Na, most jon az "oktato"-jelleg.

Aki nem ismeri ezeket, kicsit vigyazzon, fel ne uljon olykor
igen ugyes, olykor balkani szinvonalu provokacioiknak.
"Beat them in their own game" - es csak annyi kotelet adj
nekik, amivel felakaszthatjak magukat.

Toth Jozsef,
editor
[letter translated from Bulgarian, written in English-Mormon
dialect]

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                ************************

-------             ----  -------              ----  -------               ----
Afghanistan        $4.01  Grenada/Carriacou   $ .94  Niue Isl.             4.65
Algeria             1.28  Guadeloupe           1.09  Norway                 .48
American Samoa      1.76  Guam                  .67  Oceans (Indian)      12.04
Angola              1.09  Guantanamo Bay       1.16  Oceans (other)       10.50
Anguilla            1.09  Guatemala             .99  Oman                  1.69
Antigua/Barbuda      .95  Guinea               2.22  Pakistan              1.54
Argentina            .83  Guinea-Bissau        2.64  Palau                 2.54
Armenia             2.20  Guyana               1.52  Panama                 .75
Aruba               1.13  Haiti                 .81  Papua New Guinea      1.56
Ascension Isl.      1.69  Honduras              .99  Paraguay              1.33
Australia            .28  Hong Kong             .44  Peru                   .92
Austria              .71  Hungary              1.03  Philippines            .91
Azerbaijan          2.68  Iceland               .81  Poland                 .99
Bahamas              .38  India                 .91  Portugal               .56
Bahrain             1.09  Indonesia            1.22  Qatar                 1.39
Bangladesh          1.80  Iran                 1.66  Reunion Isl.          2.61
Barbados             .94  Iraq                 1.80  Romania               1.55
Belarus             2.17  Ireland               .71  Russia                1.33
Belgium              .49  Israel                .93  Rwanda                2.26
Belize              1.25  Italy                 .50  Saipan, Roto/Tinian   1.14
Benin               1.64  Ivory Coast          1.68  Sao Tome              1.27
Bermuda              .63  Jamaica               .81  Saudi Arabia           .98
Bhutan              2.38  Japan                 .42  Senegal               1.60
Bolivia              .94  Jordan                .92  Seychelles            2.85
Bosnia              1.33  Kampuchea/Cambodia   2.29  Sierra Leone          2.25
Botswana            1.49  Kazakhstan           2.50  Singapore              .38
Brazil               .75  Kenya                1.29  Slovenia              1.32
British Virg Isls.   .96  Kiribati             1.91  Solomon Isl.          1.75
Brunei              1.54  Korea                 .76  South Africa           .63
Bulgaria            1.25  Kuwait               1.02  Spain                  .50
Burkina Faso        2.08  Kyrgyzstan           2.50  Sri Lanka             1.46
Burundi             3.57  Laos                 3.58  St. Helena            2.91
Cameroon            1.60  Latvia               1.68  St. Kitts             1.16
Canada               .17  Lebanon              1.16  St. Lucia              .95
Cape Verde Isl.     1.58  Lesotho              1.54  St. Pierre             .72
Cayman Isl.          .95  Liberia               .82  St. Vincent            .96
Central Africa Rep. 3.50  Libya                1.50  Suriname              1.68
Chad                3.26  Lithuania            1.68  Swaziland             1.49
Chile                .75  Luxembourg            .78  Sweden                 .28
China               1.39  Macao                1.83  Switzerland            .39
CIS                 1.68  Macedonia            1.33  Syria                 1.88
Colombia             .81  Madagascar           3.60  Taiwan                 .55
Comoros             3.17  Malawi               1.31  Tajikstan             2.50
Congo               1.70  Malaysia              .95  Tanzania              1.64
Cook Isl.           2.77  Maldives             2.95  Thailand              1.12
Costa Rica           .69  Mali Rep.            2.53  Togo                  1.71
Croatia             1.32  Malta                1.47  Tonga Isl.            2.33
Cuba                1.48  Marshall Isl.        1.90  Trinidad/Tobago       1.02
Cyprus              1.30  Mauritania           2.56  Tunisia               1.62
Czechoslavakia       .92  Mauritius            2.26  Turkey                 .90
Denmark              .78  Mayotte Isl.         2.46  Turkmenistan          2.50
Diego Garcia        2.95  Mexico 1-Tijuana      .29  Turks/Caicos Isl.      .96
Djibouti            1.97  Mexico 2              .35  Tuvalu                4.40
Dominica            1.17  Mexico 3              .52  Uganda                1.54
Dominican Rep.       .55  Mexico 4              .59  Ukraine               2.50
Ecuador              .99  Mexico 5              .77  United Arab Emirates   .81
Egypt               1.05  Mexico 6              .95  United Kingdom         .23
El Salvador          .81  Mexico 7-Mex City     .98  Uruguay               1.08
Equatorial Guinea   3.50  Mexico 8             1.15  USA-Dir. Assistance   3.00
Estonia             1.68  Micronesia           1.82  USA-Mainland           .09
Ethiopia            1.90  Moldova              1.69  USA-PR/HI/AK           .13
Faeroe Isls.        1.02  Mongolia             2.58  Uzbekistan            2.50
Falkland Isls.      2.91  Montserrat           1.02  Vanuatu               3.90
Fiji                1.95  Morocco              1.52  Venezuela              .53
Finland              .59  Mozambique           1.77  Vietnam               1.68
France               .36  Myanmar/Burma        4.35  Wallis/Futun           .35
French Antilles     1.08  Namibia              1.34  Western Samoa         1.73
French Guiana       1.08  Nauru                1.59  Yemen Arab Rep.       1.12
French Polynesia    1.95  Nepal                2.03  Yugoslavia            1.26
Gabon               1.33  Netherlands           .35  Zaire                 1.22
Gambia              1.33  Netherlands Antilles  .59  Zambia                1.64
Georgia             2.19  Nevis Isl.           1.00  Zimbabwe              1.57
Germany              .37  New Caledonia        2.28
Ghana               1.04  New Zealand           .49
Gibraltar           1.47  Nicaragua             .95
Greece               .73  Niger Rep.           1.87
Greenland           1.10  Nigeria               .94

*FOR CALLS MADE TO OR FROM THE CONTINENTAL USA, ADD 9 CENTS PER MINUTE
 I.E. (SEE TABLE ENTRY FOR USA Mainland)

***************************************************************************

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--------
Tom F. Susnik, President
1104 Lowell Lane
Schaumburg (Chicago), IL 60193
Phone: 708-894-0008
Fax:   212-253-4124 (New York office)
> ---------------------------------------------------
Email: 
URL:   http://www.angelfire.com/free/ismcardem.html

Istvan Szucs > wrote:
>
>Their leadership did a 180% turnaround. From Liberal (in its
>european sense) it became a right wing party.

Then you must be a leftist for whom anything right of him is on the
"right wing". ;-)  FIDESZ a right wing party?  It's ridiculous.
Perhaps a center-right party.  Moving from the former center-left
position after getting rid off its SZDSZ moles.
Hardly a 180% turn!  Maybe 90%.

Joe

I  wholeheartedly join this move. This woman is evil. I have not heard or
read anything like her since I survived the Holocaust!  I am a  Hungarian
patriot, who was tortured by his fellow hungarian nazis! But, still, I
believe in the purity of the Hungarian spirit! 
I protest this woman monster!

Kedves Olvasok fokent az USA-bol!

Tudna valaki segiteni megkeresni egy konyvkiadonak a telefon, ill fax szamat, 
vagy esetleg a villanyposta cimet. ( Ugy tudom igy hivjak az E-mailt )
A kiado:  	KRIEGER PUBLISHING COMPANY
		PO Box 9542
		Mlbourne, Florida 32901.

Ha jol tudom a S Gandhy:Semicondnductor Power Devices konyv utannyomasat 
atvettek a J Wiley & sons -tol.
Elore is koszonom   Imre

In article > , 
writes:
>Hat azt meg a fonoke honnan tudta? Neki is irt a Toni?

Meg fox lepodni, Pyro-t jobboldalrol szivattak meg,
ami  annak ismereteben,  hogy miket irt a  Forumon
tobb, mint furcsa, mondhatnam perverz.

Bar lehet, hogy a Tóni is irt neki... ;-)

Tamas

T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>
>Pyrot nem a HIX Jozsi tiltotta ki, hanem a fonoke, aki nem vette
>jo neven, hogy government cimrol egy politikai forumba ir.

Hat azt meg a fonoke honnan tudta? Neki is irt a Toni? ;-)

Jozsi

In article >,  > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| 
| >Arrol nem is beszelve hogy mindez 2000
| >evvel ezelott volt - ugyanannyira nem jellemzo a mai
| >zsidosagra, mint az eretnek egetes, keresztes haboruk,
| >lasd Pazmany Peter egyetem, a maga (polgari) jogi karaval.
| 
| Ez egy eros csusztatas, mivel a katolikus egyetemek polgari karainal
| soha nem volt kovetelmeny a katolikus vallas.  Tuti, hogy arra a jogi
| karra is jelentkezhet akarmilyen vallasu.

Ez nem csusztatas. Erre az egyetemre is jelentkezhet
barmilyen vallasu, de ha jol tudom ott is vannak kotelezo
vallasi targyak, sot papi ajanlas is javasolt. 

| 
| >emigraciot (igy) nem utaljak. Vannak az emigracionak olyan
| >kepviseloi (eleg sokan, konzervativ es liberalis erzelmuek
| >egyarant ) akik kioktatoan, lesajnaloan, lekezeloen 
| >viselkednek. Ezeket az embereket sokan utaljak.
| 
| Persze ilyeneket en is ismerek, de en tovabbra is fenntartom azt, hogy
| odahaza a nep nagy resze utal bennunket, vagy legalabbis gyanakvassal
| van irantunk.  Persze nem a szemelyes ismerosokre gondolok, hanem
| olyanokra, akik nem ismerik egymast.  En meg odaig is elmennek, hogy egy
| atlag otthoni polgar tobb bizalommal viszonyul egy ott latogato
| szuletett amerikaihoz, mint egy ott latogato magyar emigranshoz.
| Errol akarmelyik emigrans meggyozodhet, ha ottani latogatasakor
| nem arulja el mindjart a magyarsagat.  Csak figyeljetek a valtozast,
| amint felfeditek magatokat.
| >
| >"Soros tehat nem emigracio?"
| 
| Ez most nem tudom hogy jon ide, de valaki, akinek annyi penze van, mint
| neki, s ott tart lakast, ahol akar, gondolom ot akar nem is tekintik
| emigransnak odahaza.  Soros elott Speter Erzsebetet ajnaroztak majdnem
| ennyire.  Vajh miert?  

Nekem mondjuk forgott a gyomrom Speter Erzsbet miatt, de ez
maganvelemeny -ugyan a legtobb embertol ezt
hallottam. Hazajott hogy a penzeert unnepeltesse magat.
,
| >
| >Ez egy kulon vita, ezzel nem ertek egyet. Szerintem azok a
| >szelsoseges csoportok tesznek kart Magyarorszagnak akik
| >harciasan irrealis celokat kergetnek (peldaul Trianon), mert
| 
| De jo lett volna, ha a Romanok is igy ovakodtak volna az "irrealis
| celoktol" az I. vh elott! Abban viszont igazat adok neked, hogy
| a temat ovatosan es diplomatikusan kellene kezelni.  En is hajlok arra,
| hogy MO-nak elsosorban a gazdasag felviragzasara kene koncentralnia,
| annyira, hogy meg a kornyezo orszagok nem-magyar polgarai szamara is
| vonzoak tudjunk lenni.  A baj csak az, hogy ezt nem lehet kivarni ugy,
| hogy kozben Romaniaban es Szlovakiaban eltunik a magyarsag.  Tehat jelenleg
| biztositani kellene legalabb a tulelesuket, mint etnikum.  Mivel ez nem
| megy, ne csodalkozz, hogy sokan nem latnak mas utat, mint Trianon
| reviziojat surgetni. Vegulis a szomszed orszagok ugyanolyan rosszul
| bantak a magyarjainkkal akkor is, amikor senki sem emlegette a hatarok
| reviziojat.  A Funarok es Meciarok riadot fujnak fuggetlenul attol, hogy
| mi mit csinalunk. 

Ez reszben igaz, de a Funarok es a Meciarok riadojahoz
sokkal konnyebben kapnak hallgatosagot ha Magyar reszrol
szerencsetlenul nyilatkoznak. Szerintem az erdelyi Magyarok
kerdesevel kapcsolatban elnyertuk annyira a vilag
szimpatiajat hogy ongol lenne elveszteni irrealis celok
kergetese altal. Sokkal jobban jarna az Erdelyi Magyarsag
is, ha nemzetkozileg elismert polgari jogaikert tennenk -
esetleg tobbet is mint most mintha Trianonnal jonnenk elo
uton utfelen.


| 
| >masreszt aki itt van olyanbol marad ki ami
| >szukseges az otthoni helyzet megertesehez. Mas valamit
| >hallani, elolvasni, mint benne elni. 
| 
| Azt hiszem most mar ideje lenne nem az otthoni helyzetet erteni, hanem
| azt, ahova igyekeznek.  S azt mi ismerjuk jobban.

Az otthoni helyzetet erteni kell ahhoz hogy erts hova
igyekeznek. Akik regota itt vannak amerikai fogalmakkal
beszelnek (legalabbis sok az athallas). Ez a ket orszag
kulonbsegei miatt, (mar csak az Europa - AMerika kulonbsege
miatt) zavaro. A Magyarorszagon elo Magyaroknak kell
eldonteniuk hogy a Magyarorszagon elo Magyarok hova akarnak igyekezni.

| > Semmi  bajom nincs azzal ha valaki engem peldaul
| >liberalisnak nevez vagy tart. Liberalbolsi mar mas, mert
| >bolseivk nem vagyok, nem is voltam, sot felmenom sem volt
| >az.
| 
| Akkor meg minek veszed magadra?  A liberalisokkal nekem sincs bajom, de
| ma nem mindenki az, akinek annak mondja magat.  Az SZDSZes Tolgyesi pl.
| liberalis, de nem liberal-bolsi.  A Peto es a korulotte levo kemeny mag
| az.

Ket dolog - Petovel kapcsolatban nem ertunk egyet, ez az
egyik - a masik pedig hogy azt a szot hogy liberalis a bolsi
nelkul meg nem hallottam konzervativoktol a hixen vagy a
useneten. Ezert kenytelen vagyok - ha nem is magamra venni -
de ugy venni mint ha nekem lenne szanva. Egyebkent ez
tobbszor tobbektol nevesitve is megtortent. Pellionisz
Andrassal is eleg jol tudtunk beszelgetni amig el nem
kezdett - alaptalanul - cimkezgetni es gyanusitgatni. En egy
idejig ervekkel valaszoltam, de egy ido utan kenytelen
voltam felvenni a kesztyut. Azota is rajtam van.


| >Mellekvagany, de meg mindig nem ertem hogy a liberabolsi
| >mint akar jelenteni? Mindenki aki liberalis egyben bolsevik
| >is lenne? Mindenki aki liberalis bolsevik osokkel
| >rendelkezik? Ez a vilagon mindenhol igy van, vagy csak
| >Magyarorszagon? .. rengeteg kerdes merul fel
| 
| Hadd definialjam ahogy en ertem ezt.  A liberal-bolsik azok
| liberalisokka atvedlett volt bolsik.  Ezeknek is, akarcsak Horn es
| tarsainak, maszopos, ill. marxista multjuk van, de a liberal-bolsik
| idejeben lovat valtottak, mig a maszoposok csak reformalodtak.
| Amiben nem valtoztak, az az internacionalizmus.  Bizonyos szempontbol
| a maszoposok tobb tiszteletet erdemelnek, mivel tobbe-kevesbbe huek
| maradtak regi idealjaikhoz, mig a szadeszba tomorult lib-bolsik
| tobbnyire elvtelen opportunistak.  Nehez elfelejteni hangos
| anti-kommunizmusukat 89-ben, amivel meg odaig is mentek, hogy az MDF-et
| gyanusitottak kommunista-baratsaggal, hogy Pozsgait elussek a
| koztarsasagi elnoki eselyeitol.  S ilyen elozmenyek utan meg volt bor a
| kepukon koalicioba allni ugyanazokkal a kommunistakkal 4
evvel kesobb!


Ugy tudom hogy az MDF az MSZMPvel akart tarsulni. Az MSZMP
es az MSZP kozott azert jelentos kulonbseg van. El tudnad
kkepzelni hogy az MSZMP a mai MSZP programjat kepviselne?


l| Kozben azt is bebizonyitottak, hogy az o nagydobra vert szurkeallomanyuk
| sem jobb, mint az Antall kore csoportosultake, sot!  Hatalomehseg es
| opportunizmus az, amiben jelesre vizsgaztak.  Az eselyek jok arra, hogy
| mar csak ket evig eloskodhetnek a nep nyakan, de van egy olyan erzesem,
| hogy Torgyan hatalomrajutasa esetere is mar bebiztositottak maguknak egy
| paktumot, mert Torgyan is csak egy trojai falo lehet.

Csinaltak rengeteg hibat - ez ketsegtelen - de szerintem
kevesebbet mint Antallek. Hogy vannak koztuk opportunistak
ez is biztos. Ilyet az MDFben is korlatlan szamban
emlithetek. Hatalomehseggel kapcsolatban pedig nekem ugy
tunik az MDF   koalicios kormany messze tultett rajtuk -
erre szivesen emlitek peldakat is. 

| >
| >Nem tudom, de eddig mintha azt mondta volna mindenki hogy
ba >Elek Gabor informaciojara privatlevelcserejerol teves
| >volt. Most vagy teves volt, es akkor biztos nem betores
| >utjan szerezte az informaciojat, vagy nem volt teves, demeg
| >akkor sem biztos hogy betores utjan szerezte
| >informacioat.
| 
| Hat hogy?  Mit gondolsz, honnan veszi azokat amiket most pl. PA-nak
| "elarult"?  Ha emogott nincs egy jo alapos szimatolas, akkor pap legyek.
| S meg ram nehezteltek egyesek, amikor egy volt FORUMosnak, akirol
| megtudtam, hogy munkasor (szimatolas nelkul!) volt, nyilvanossagra
| hoztam azt.  A tag utana ugy eltunt mint a kamfor!  Ennek ellenere azok
| a bizonyos "egyesek" koveteltek, hogy aruljam el az informaciom
| forrasat!  Vajon most ugyanazok miert nem szolitjak fel Eleket, hogy
| bizonyitson?  Pedig PA nem is tunt el kamforkent!

PA igenis eltunt kamforkent. Ez az archivumbol
ellenorizheto. Nem tudom mit tett alapos szimatolaskent, de
meg mindig fennall az hogy vagy igaza volt, vagy nem
szimatolt, esetleg mindketto.

| 
| >amig az emigracio hangja nem ter el szogesen az otthoni
| >hangoktol. Nem allitom hogy nincsenek otthon olyanok akik az
| >itteni emigracio leghangosabb tagjaival ertenenek egyet, de
| >az itteni emigracio hangja abszolut nem jellemzo az otthon
| >elokere.
| 
| Persze odahaza elve en sem mernek ugy beszelni, mint idekint.  Tehat ez
| nem jelent semmit.

Csakhogy az otthoni emberek hangjat sokfele keppen lehet
lemerni. Egyebkent nem hiszem hogy valakinek felnie kellene
beszelni. Azert a HIXre Magyarorszagrol is irnak.. 


| 
| > Ha ilyen nezekulonbseg van akkor szerintem jogos
| >hogy azokrol a kerdesekrol amelyek elsosorban azok eletet
| >befolyasoljak akik otthon elnek azok szavazzanak akik otthon
| >elnek.
| 
| Ez egy olyan "standard" szoveg, ami mar a fulemen jon ki.  Most mar csak
| azt is szeretnem hallani az ezt fujoktol, hogy mit gondolnak miert nem 
| velekednek igy a vilag legtobb civilizalt orszagaban? 

Az hogy Standard az meg nem jelent semmit. 

 Persze sejtem mit
| valaszolnanak erre az otthoniak, mivel az is elegge megszokott mar:
| "minket nem erdekel masok mit csinalnak; mi jobban tudjuk mi jo nekunk."
| OK, otthoni igy gondolkozok, akkor csak assatok magatokat meg melyebbre
| a godorbe, amit majd "nepek vesznek korul." :-(

En nem ezt valaszolnam. Inkabb azt hogy mas orszagokban,
kulonosen azokban ahol az emigracio gazdasagi, es ahol az
emigracio nem egy olyan periodusbol szarmazik mint nalunk 56
volt talan kevesbe szogesen mas az otthoni mint az emigrans velemeny.


| 
| >sokszor ugy gondolom hogy amig Toth Judit, es azz o
| >velemenyet kepviselok jelentik az emigracio hangjat addig
| >jobban is jarnank.
| 
| Az emigracio ugyanolyan megoszlott velemenyu, mint az otthoniak, bar mi
| legalabb megusztuk a "letezo szocializmus" fu alatti agymosasanak
| kovetkezmenyeit.

Helyette kaptatok egy egeszen masik agymosast. (Itt az
agymosast nem feltetlenul rossz ertelemben ertem), ami nem
feltetlenul felel meg a Magyarorszagi Magyarok celjainak, helyzetenek.


| >NEzd - nem tudom mit ertesz a "ti" alatt. Az hogy sok spicli
| >gazdag az bantja az emberek csoret, az enyemet is. Sajnos ez
| >a kissebbik rossz volt a lehetosegek kozul. Ez a spicli most
| >lehet szabadmadar, de ne hidd azt hogy a konzervativ oldalon
| >nincs nagyon sok volt spicli. 
| 
| Persze az MDF is tele volt veluk.  Gondolom nagy reszuk epp mostanaban
| maradt ott hoppon.  A "ti" alatt nem szuksegesen ertelek teged, s 
| levelemet rajtad keresztul azoknak az otthoniaknak cimeztem, akik
| hasonloan velekednek az emigraciorol.  Mivel te mindig az otthoniak
| kepviselojenek tunteted fel magad, ez alkalmat ad erre a
| "kiteregetesre."

OK.. Egyebkent nem kepviselem oket, es nem is allitom hogy
barmifele tobbsegi allaspontot kepviselnek. Ugyan nem reg
jottem el, egyre inkabb latok apro hajszalrepedeseket az en
felfogasom es az otthoni kozfelfogas kozott, tehat egyre
kevesbe vagyok "autentikus" ha ilyen egyaltalan letezik. De
szeretnek haza menni mielott ezek az egyenlore tenyleg csak
hajszalrepedesek elmelyulnenek.

| >lenne a hivatalos magyar politika? Naponta hany aszt
| >kapnanak a Roman szelsosegesek?! 
| 
| Miert kell mindig nekunk lenni "erzekenynek" masok irant ha ok nem
| erzekenyek irantunk?
| 

Nem a Romanok kedveert, illetve nem elsosrban azert. Azert
(is) hogy az Erdelyi Magyarsag helyzete ne romoljon, hogy a
vilagban a megitelesunk ne romoljon, hogy ne sullyedjunk
Romania szintjere.

Imre Keri wrote:
> 
> Kedves Olvasok fokent az USA-bol!
> 
> Tudna valaki segiteni megkeresni egy konyvkiadonak a telefon, ill fax szamat,
> vagy esetleg a villanyposta cimet. ( Ugy tudom igy hivjak az E-mailt )
> A kiado:        KRIEGER PUBLISHING COMPANY
>                 PO Box 9542
>                 Mlbourne, Florida 32901.
> 
> Ha jol tudom a S Gandhy:Semicondnductor Power Devices konyv utannyomasat
> atvettek a J Wiley & sons -tol.

Alta-Vista (http://www.altavista.digital.com/) talalta:

Krieger Publishing Company
P.O. Box 9542
Melbourne, FL 32902-9542
407/724-9542 Fax: 407/951-3671

E-mail cim nem volt.

> Elore is koszonom   Imre

Nincs mit.

Andras

Participation of International Scientists will be most welcome.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
 
                        First Call for Contributions
        1996 International Conference on Intelligent and Cognitive Systems
                                 ICICS'96
 
                            Sept. 23-26, 1996
                Intelligent Systems Research Institute
                              Tehran, Iran
 
        Conference information is available on the World Wide Web at
 
                        http://www.gpg.com/isri
 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
 
CONTENTS
 
   *  Scope
   *  Aims
   *  Patrons
   *  Sponsors
   *  Contribution Procedure
   *  Timetable
   *  Simultaneous Activities
   *  Cognitive Sciences Symposium: CSS'96
   *  Neural Networks Symposium: NNS'96
   *  Fuzzy Systems Symposium: FSS'96
   *  Contact Information
 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
 
Scope
 
-    Intelligent Systems and the Foundation of Cognitive Sciences
-    Theoretical Computer Science
-    Knowledge-Based and Semantic Systems
-    Information Technology and Automation
-    Cybernetics and Man-Machine Interface Systems
-    Neural Networks, Reasoning/Logic-Based Systems, and Biological Computing
-    Language and Symbolic Systems
-    Mathematical Systems Theory
-    Psychology of Cognition
-    Sociocognition and Sociology of Knowledge
-    Neuroscience and Neuroengineering
 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
 
Aims
 
The Conference aims at providing a forum for presentation of the latest
scientific results and research achievements, exchange of ideas and research
experiences, and examination of theoretical problems and applications in the
field of intelligent and cognitive systems.
 
Promotion of interdisciplinary research, and encouragement of scientific
collaborations nationally as well as internationally among the researchers, and
interested users' in various organizations are also among the conference
objectives.
 
Within the scope of this conference, three symposia in the fields of Cognitive
Sciences, Neural Networks and Fuzzy Systems will be held.
 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
 
Patrons
 
M.R. Hashemi Golpayegani, M.J. Larijani
 
Conference Chairperson: C. Lucas
 
Cognitive Sciences Symposium Chair: H. Vahid
 
Neural Networks Symposium Co-chairs: S. Rouhani, and A.R. Mirzai
 
Fuzzy Systems Symposium Co-chairs: V. Tahani, and N. Sadati
 
Exhibition Chair: B. Moshiri
 
Workshops/Short Courses Chair: K. Badie
 
International Program Committee Co-chairs: M.H. Zand, and S. Rouhani
 
Organizing Committee Chair: Sh. Etemad
 
Public Relations Managers: M.H. Zand, and A. Arfaei
 
International Relations Coordinators: Sh. Etemad, and A. Arfaei
 
Publications Manager: Gh.B. Khosrowshahi
 
Financial Manager: M. Tarahomi
 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
 
Sponsors
 
   *  Intelligent Systems Research Institute 
   *  Ministry of Culture and Higher Education 
   *  Permanent Mission of the Islamic Republic of Iran to the UN 
   *  V.M. Glushkov Institute of Cybernetics, 
      National Academy of Sciences, Ukraine 
   *  Institute of Informatics and Automation Problems, 
      National Academy of Sciences, Armenia 
   *  The Iranian Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers 
   *  IEEE, Iran Section 
 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
 
Contribution Procedure
 
Scientific papers should report novel results and achievements in the field of
intelligent and cognitive systems. Tutorial and review papers will be
acceptable only in exceptional circumstances.
 
Product oriented papers will be presented in a special session.
 
Prospective contributors are invited to submit an extended summary (500-1000
words) of their paper emphasizing the novel results of their theoretical or
applied research, and including the title, author(s), affiliation(s), address,
telephone, fax, E-mail(s), to
 
ISRI
P.O. Box 19395--5746
Tehran, Iran
E-mail: 
 
Please also cite: ``Submitted for possible presentation at ... '' together with
the name of the conference/symposium to which the paper is contributed
 
For special sessions/exhibitions/product introductions, etc., the same
procedure applies. Please cite: ``Proposal for ... in ...''
 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
 
Timetable
 
Deadline for receiving summaries/proposals:             20 April 1996
 
Notification of acceptance:                             20 June 1996
 
Receipt of the full text:                               20 August 1996
 
(The Program Committee will review the manuscripts and return to the authors
for appropriate action if any shortcoming is noticed. The responsibility will
always belong to the author(s)).
 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
 
Simultaneous Activities
 
Exhibition; Courses and Workshops.
 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
 
Cognitive Sciences Symposium: CSS'96
 
Sept. 23-26, 1996
 
Intelligent Systems Research Institute
I.P.M., Bahonar Sq. (Niavaran)
P.O. Box 19395-5746
Tehran, Iran
 
Scope:
 
Papers are solicited for, but not limited to, the following
areas:
 
   *  Theories of Mind/Body Problems
   *  Artificial Intelligence (The computer model of mind, David Marr's views
      on the Levels of Psychological Theories, ...)
   *  Scientific and Folk Psychology
   *  Psychological Explanations
   *  Mental Representation (Theories of Propositional Attitudes, the Nature of
      Representation, the Structure of Content, ...)
   *  Parallel Distributed Reasoning (Connectionism, Artificial Neural
      Networks)
   *  Creativity and Problem Solving
   *  The Psychology and Epistemology of Perception
   *  Mental Imagery
   *  Consciousness
   *  Actions
   *  The Problem of Free Will
 
Program Committee: Cognitive Sciences Symposium
 
Y. Aliabadi, K. Badie, S. Etemad, M.J. Larijani and H. Vahid (Chair)
 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
 
Neural Networks Symposium: NNS'96
 
Sept. 23-26, 1996
 
Intelligent Systems Research Institute
I.P.M., Bahonar Sq. (Niavaran)
P.O. Box 19395-5746
Tehran, IRAN
 
Scope:
 
Papers are solicited for, but not limited to, the following areas:
 
   *  Theoretical aspects of neural networks, including Spin glasses, Coding
      Theory ...
   *  Learning algorithms
   *  New architectures and topologies
   *  Simulation environments for neural networks
   *  Analysis and organization of knowledge in neural networks
   *  Neuro-fuzzy algorithms
   *  Applications of neural networks.
 
Program Committee: Neural Networks Symposium
 
M.H. Abassian, M.R. Hashemi Golpayegani, C. Lucas, A.R. Mirzai (Co-chair), B.
Moshiri, S. Rouhani (Co-chair), N. Sadati, V. Tahani, M.H. Zand.
 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
 
Fuzzy Systems Symposium: FSS'96
 
Sept. 23-26, 1996
 
Intelligent Systems Research Institute
I.P.M., Bahonar Sq. (Niavaran)
P.O. Box 19395-5746
Tehran, IRAN
 
Scope:
 
Papers are solicited for, but not limited to, the following areas:
 
   *  Mathematics of Fuzzy Logic
   *  Fuzzy Logic Expert Systems and Controllers
   *  Hardware and Software
   *  Neuro-Fuzzy Systems
   *  Pattern Recognition
   *  Optimization
   *  Evolutionary Strategies and Fuzzy Logic
   *  Industrial, Medical and other Scientific Applications of Fuzzy Logic
 
Program Committee: Fuzzy Systems Symposium
 
E. Eslami, M. R. Hashemi Golpayegani, C. Lucas, M. Machinchi, N. Sadati
(Co-chair), V. Tahani (Co-chair), M. Zahedi.
 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
 
Contact Information
 
Intelligent Systems Research Institute
P.O. Box 19395-5746
Tehran, Iran
E-mail: 
WWW:    http://www.gpg.com/isri
 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--

Elmer Kuber wrote:
>I will be in Chicago next week from, March 9th to the 16th. Are there any 
>celebrations or commemorations planned for the 15th there? Also can 
>anyone recommend and Hungarian restaurants, entertainment etc? Please 
>feel free to post or e-mail me at 
>

Dear Sir,
Paprika's restaraunt located at 5200 W Diversey (Diversey + Laramie)
specializes in Hungarian Cuisine.  They are an average priced eatery
and grill in a tavern type setting.  Casual, yet good food (I've eaten
there myself)  Kennessey's located in the Belmont Hotel (Belmont and
Sheridan) is fine dining and also specializes in finer European and
Hungarian cuisine.  Priced higher, and less casual, this restaraunt
is quite impressive.  Kennessey's has another place in the suburbs
that you can find out about at this place.  Both these places are the
only ones I know of myself in the city proper itself.
	St. Stephen's King of Hungary Church has a scouts commemoration
of the 1848 freedom fight on the 17th of March, however this will be too
late for you.  If you chaqnge your plans, the commemoration will take
place in the basement of the church immediately following Sunday Roman
Catholic Mass at 11 or 11:30 am at 2015 W. Augusta Blvd.  (Augusta and
Damen) in Chicago.
	Good luck in your travels,
	Michael J. Csiki
 	
	http://users.aol.com/MikeC16958/home.html
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

> wrote:
>
>wow gee... now that is what i call selective memory. i myself remember
>something a tad more... ahm, *pungent*

But still no quotes, eh?

> but hell, okay, since you insist. you do not
>consider that racist propaganda??? you mean you personally know of worse? 

That's right.  I considered it a "dishing it out" by someone who had
enough of the relentless anti-Hungarian propoganda from the likes of you.

>truly the stomach turns

Good!

>you know joe, you really should lay off me. i'm funnier, i'm smarter, and
>i can tear you to little pieces. :-)
>loudness doesn't count.

You started pickin' on me in the first place, and you have the nerve to
write that I should lay off of you?  Your sense of humor and smarts may
work in a closed institution where you belong, judging from the
nonsense you carry on your WEB page.  And this is not only my opinion,
though I must admit it's not as bad today as it used to be when you
first called attention to your home page.

>regards
>ef

Regardless,
JP

In article >,  () wrote
:


> You started pickin' on me in the first place, and you have the nerve to
> write that I should lay off of you?  Your sense of humor and smarts may
> work in a closed institution where you belong, judging from the
> nonsense you carry on your WEB page.  And this is not only my opinion,
> though I must admit it's not as bad today as it used to be when you
> first called attention to your home page.


ooo... a nart critic! :-)

and what the hell does my webpage have to do with a discussion on racism,
pray tell?

heh... you're a funny little man, joe... but FYI, my so called webpage is
sponsored by the canada council media arts program.

and since i really really don't think you to have the neccessary
background to discourse on the merits or demerits of my, or for that
matter, anyone elses work, alas <sniff>, we come to the end of our
friendly repartee...

you're but a little smidgen on my horizon, joe, and look what you have
done! you have erased yourself!

p
p
p
*plonk*

<aaaahh...whew>

bye bye joe

ef 
   (always an enthusiastic proponent of killfiles :-))

-- 
NWHQ
http://www.knosso.com/NWHQ/

In article > ,
 writes:
>majd megkerdezem okat hogy szorosek e, jo?

>ef (aki nem borotvalkozik)

Se honaljat, se labat, se pinat ?!? Ha' milyen amerikai no vagy te ??

Tamas

In article > Liviu Iordache,
 writes:
>In the Counties:
>     Jews...............................1,474

>In the Szelker szekek
>     Jews.................................107

>In the Saxon Stuhle
>     Jews..................................25


Liviu,

I am sorry  but I'm gona misuse your reference (Otherwise
thanx for typing in it. They are interesting.) this time to
spice up the Hungarian bashing of other kind in soc. cultu-
re.magyar.

--------

It can be heard *very* frequently, that because of the
wars, migrations and bygone years we can not talk of
Hungarian race anymore. (Political conlclusion: no organic
definition of nation is posible => no ground for political
nationalism,  the only imaginable & kosher political stand-
point is the liberalism.)

On the other hand, someone dares to mention that the
Jews migrated into Hungary just at the end of the last
centrury, the furious reply either very simply the usual
"youuuu aaaare antisemitic" or lengthly agressiv expla-
nation that the Jews *were* always here (Were they called
Daco-romans then ? Dunno.. :-) :-) in large number, as long
as the Hungarians. Minimum.
(Political conclusion:  our liberalism is not an imported and
alien goody but inherent, homebrewed stuff.  So it can not
be attacked from a nationalistic point of view.)

At least we can guess that large number of Jews now in 1794..

Tamas

On Feb 19, 1996 21:15:05 in article <Hungarians in Romania --( 5 )--
Memorandum>, 'Anthony Malczanek >' wrote: 
 
 
>MEMORANDUM 
>========== 
> 
>BY THE DEMOCRATIC ALLIANCE OF HUNGARIANS IN ROMANIA  
>=================================================== 
>ON ROMANIA'S ADMISSION TO THE COUNCIL OF EUROPE 
>===============================================   
 
>II.    Changes  Required in Romania's Legal System: 
>============================================ 
 
>7. The legal guarantee of the principle of positive      
>discrimination in favor of national minorities, in the spirit      
>of existing international agreements;    
 
"Positive" racial and ethnic discrimination has been extensively
implimented in the United States.  It has been an unmitigated failure.  It
breeds much more extensive racial and ethnic animosities than existed
before.  It encourages ethnic "Balkanization" - something that Romania
certainly does not need.  It mandates a Nazi-like fixation on race.  And,
according to the propoents of "possitive" ethnic discrimination, it doesn't
even equalize opportunity.  Adoption of such an immoral and retrograde
legal system would constitute the first step towards ethnic civil war, and
consequently should be avoided at all costs.  A much better system is to
simply ban all ethnic discrimination, and treat the citizenry as
individuals. 
 
Alexander 
 
Alexander

Ugy neznek ki a dolgok, hogy a nyaron mennek haza vakaciozni, s
ott szeretnek maradni ket es fel honapot.  S ezert szeretnek venni vagy
ha lehet, akkor berelni egy magan valakitol egy megbizhato, de azert olcso
tragacsot.  Hogy milyen kocsi az nekem mindegy, csak legyen rajta negy
kerek es egy volan. Meg egy Lesturn vagy egy Trabant is jo lenne. 
Ha megfelelo a kocsi, akkor jo is lesz a fizetes.  Az idealis az az lenne, ha
valakitol berbe tudnak kapni egy kocsit.
	
				Balage   
--
A Pipacs egyuttes (banda)hires s fontos mondokai:
   1. Csak a jo Istenert, huzzad mar meg azt a hurt!!!  Mert, maskullonben nem
lesz mirre bulizunk.  2. Na! jo van, gyerkocok, ne teketoriazunk...Isten,
Isten, s bekesseg a szivetekbe!!! 3.Enni kell, b---ni jo,setalni meg passzio!

On 6 Mar 1996, Csaba Zoltani wrote:
> Tibor Odor writes on the alleged "wrongdoings" of George Soros:
> >2'. He supports HIX. :-)
> 
> That is his priviledge.

 It would be, but he doesn't; this is just one of the baseless 
allegations fabricated by the esteemed wrongdoing-list maker.

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
# Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
# form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
# Usenet: welcome to the next level.           (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)

Michael Csiki wrote:
> 
> Elmer Kuber wrote:
> >I will be in Chicago next week from, March 9th to the 16th. Are there any
> >celebrations or commemorations planned for the 15th there? Also can
> >anyone recommend and Hungarian restaurants, entertainment etc? Please
> >feel free to post or e-mail me at 
> >
> 
> Dear Sir,
> Paprika's restaraunt located at 5200 W Diversey (Diversey + Laramie)
> specializes in Hungarian Cuisine.  They are an average priced eatery
> and grill in a tavern type setting.  Casual, yet good food (I've eaten
> there myself)  Kennessey's located in the Belmont Hotel (Belmont and
> Sheridan) is fine dining and also specializes in finer European and
> Hungarian cuisine.  Priced higher, and less casual, this restaraunt
> is quite impressive.  Kennessey's has another place in the suburbs
> that you can find out about at this place.  Both these places are the
> only ones I know of myself in the city proper itself.
>         St. Stephen's King of Hungary Church has a scouts commemoration
> of the 1848 freedom fight on the 17th of March, however this will be too
> late for you.  If you chaqnge your plans, the commemoration will take
> place in the basement of the church immediately following Sunday Roman
> Catholic Mass at 11 or 11:30 am at 2015 W. Augusta Blvd.  (Augusta and
> Damen) in Chicago.
>         Good luck in your travels,
>         Michael J. Csiki
>         
>         http://users.aol.com/MikeC16958/home.html
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Unfortunately, the Kenessey's in the Belmont Hotel is CLOSED (about
a year now).  The Kenessey's in the suburbs is called the Kenessey's
Cypress and is in Hinsdale, Illinois, 708-323-2727.  A little pricey
but good.
  
  Robert
  Illinois, USA

Event on: March 9, 1996

Tanchaz Place:

 College Park, MD (USA) -  whithin the Washington D.C. Beltway
 Starting Point Dance Studio . From I495 take Route 1 South
 toward College Park . After passing the UM complex , make a left
 onto Calvert Rd. The studio is in the first building on your right,
 behind Clean and Lean Laudromat/Fitness Center

Admission: $4 ($3 for Tisza members)

Time:  7:30 pm until 10:30 pm 

Contact: Cathy Lamont (301)-929-0120

****Ask about tickets to the Muzsikas - Marta Sebestyen concert! 



--
WWW                : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~kovacs
personal email     : 

In article >,  > wrote:
>Jo napot mindenkinek!
>
>Uj olvasoja vagyok a groupnak es nem regota kiserem figyelemmel a temakat,
>ezert lehet, hogy hibas benyomasom keletkezett, de feltunt valami. A group
>elvileg a magyar kultura problemaival kellene hogy foglalkozzon, de ahogy
>nezem, inkabb a tobb mas groupban is megszokott sardobalas folyik. Zsido-nem
>zsido, kereszteny-szektas-ateista, jobboldali-baloldali meddo vitak folynak.
>Nem igazan tudom elkepzelni, hogy ebbol allana a magyar kultura, vagy ha megis
,
>hat kisse mas a budapesti kulturafelfogas, mint felenk Gyorben.
>
>Levelemmel senkit nem szandekozok megserteni, csak elso benyomsomat irtam le.
>
>Udvozlettel:
>
>Murakozi Gergely
>
Barcsak tobben is erdekelve lennenek egy igazi tarsalgasban szociologiarol es 
kulturarol. Talan egyszer ........
Gyuri

 (Peter Szaszvari) wrote:
>>>Do you think that Mr. Odor's post contained any fraction of truth?
>>
>>Yes. An it containes large mistakes. I personally noticed one at first
>>glance. (The government subsidiaries for the SF was badly misinter-
>>preted.)
>
>I think it was rather a lie not a mistake or misinterpretation. As I 
>remembered once the (Antall) government had the idea to take more out of 
>Soros. So they made a contract with him where they offered to double the money
 
>if Soros increases the value to a certain limit. They also wanted to take more
 
>control of the SF.
>The Hungarian government failed to pay(!) and it was such a shame that they 
>had to attack Soros to compensate.
>
How odd! As far as I remember, this contract was made by the Nemeth
goverment, and it may have been Mr. Soros who had the idea of taking more
out of the Hungarian government. The next (Antall) goverment just wanted to
re-negotiate this contract. On the other hand, if one pays half of
something, they have the right to take some control. Furthermore, an attempt
to change a contract no longer advantageous to one of the parties is not an
'attack', and why is a corresponding financial policy 'such a shame'?

George

Jo napot mindenkinek!

Uj olvasoja vagyok a groupnak es nem regota kiserem figyelemmel a temakat,
ezert lehet, hogy hibas benyomasom keletkezett, de feltunt valami. A group
elvileg a magyar kultura problemaival kellene hogy foglalkozzon, de ahogy
nezem, inkabb a tobb mas groupban is megszokott sardobalas folyik. Zsido-nem
zsido, kereszteny-szektas-ateista, jobboldali-baloldali meddo vitak folynak.
Nem igazan tudom elkepzelni, hogy ebbol allana a magyar kultura, vagy ha megis,
hat kisse mas a budapesti kulturafelfogas, mint felenk Gyorben.

Levelemmel senkit nem szandekozok megserteni, csak elso benyomsomat irtam le.

Udvozlettel:

Murakozi Gergely

Dear Netters,

Several people asked me to give detailed information on Soros's
wrongdoings in Hungary. Now  I do not have the possibility to give
this information because presently I am in Vienna and I do not have 
my notes with me. But before sending the detailed information
I give a short list.

And a personal note. I never applied for any kind of Soros
stipendium.  I am not interested in ethnic origin of people
and I do not have any religious prejudice. I do not hate rich
people, at least for the reason that they are rich.
So do not take these short-cuts in your brain before/after reading my 
writing.

1. Soros  very negative role under the Blocad of Taxi Drivers.
   His anti-hungarian views were disclosed in the Hungarian TV
   in an interview with him. He said very controversial things
   about hungarianness and the National Anathem which hurt the
   vast majority of the Nation on either side of the Blocad.
   It is very disturbing that the film mada about this interview
   is closed for reusage. Somebody (I forgot his name, and this is 
   an example, why I need those notes so badly) wanted to use 
   some part of the interview, but he did not have access to 
   the original one.

   It would be interesting to distribute---at least the text---
   of  this interview on the Internet, is not it? 

   He agreed with and maybe supported the unconstitutional Blocad.
   The first part of the statement is a fact, the second part seems to be
   a well founded guess.

2. He supports journals and newspapers, Magyar Narancs, Beszelo and other
   garbages which otherwise cannot survive on the market. 
   This is extremely harmful in Hungary because on the media
   market the conservative side historically underdeveloped.
   His supportation strategy, among other things, resulted the 
   present situation, that the press and media cannot regarded as
   free. (I do not beleive that there exists "half freedom".)
   
2'. He supports HIX. :-)

3. He supports people and views which are extremely harmful for the
   society. For example he strongly supports the idea of free distribution
   of hard drugs (not only marijuana, but LSDand maybe cocain). 
   He supports abortion too.

4. He is completely against the Hungarian nation. He hates everything
   which is made or done by ethnic hungarians. (Remember for the Anathem 
   issue.)He supports the enemies
   of the nation. (He gave money to Corneliu Vadim Tudor and his daughter,
   and as far as I know he gave money to Gheorghiu Funar too.) 
   He supports fomer members of the AVH. His closest
   advisors are communists, for example Miklos Vasarhelyi.
   (Even if they had some role in 1956.
   Gyula Horn also fought on the side of the revolution for 3 days.
   But he changed his mind in time. Those people simply were not so 
   clever.)
   He supports the members of the nomenklature, while he speaks about the
   "open society".
   Naturally, he gives money for others too, but take into account the
   proportions please!
   (I am aware that this statement is difficult to prove, because 
   the list of people
   who is or was supported by the Soros Foundation as far as I know
   is not open for everyone. And I do not have the right to spy on
   the Soros Foundation. Maybe the Czechs, the Serbs and other nations 
   did that, and they found the policy of Soros very harmful. And they
   got rid of him.)

   We should protest for the opening of these files! Especially because
   he is working ---at least in words--- for the "open society".
   He should it openly, not as the Secret Police!
   After the opening of these files we could decide wether my opinion ---and
   the opinion of other other critics of Soros--- is
   well founded or not. To this point we have to judge on those information
   which were disclosed by the press and the media and we could collect under
   our personal experience, as I did.)

5. It is a lie that Soros gave all the money, which is distributed
   through his Foundation.
   The Hungarian state gave half of the money which was given to
   people. It was not mentioned at all. The Hungarian state ---mistakenly---
   also gave buildings for free for the Central European University.
   The press try to sell it as if it were a private money, and
   they form the opinion on this basis that Soros can do with these things
   whatever he wants because it is his money.

   This is not the first and the last case to say about public money
   that it is private money. Similar things happend a week ago in 
   connection with a foundation of a "private" school in Buda.

   Because he gave money for his Foundation, he did not have to pay certain
   taxes. And he imitated that he gave money several times. For example, if you
   wanted to take TOEFL exam in Hungary in 1994, you could pay for it 
   only through
   the Soros Foundation. You could get checks in the Szabo Ervin library,
   Budapest, you had to fill in, and you could pay in forint.
   The check stated that you payed this money by the help of
   Soros Foundation. I showed this check to several people who speaks
    both English and Hungarian very well. All of them thought that
   this text indicates that the Soros Foundation payed ALL the money,
   not only the changing of the money on market value.
   Some people who worked in the Ministry of Education under the 
   previous gorvernement said that not only these checks were used 
   to get back taxes unlawfully.

   Because several people had to take TOEFL in  Hungary, I hope
   they can justify my statements. This is a very small amount of money.
   This is a reason why I found this story very interesting.

   This is the "philantropist" Soros.

6. The National Debt is his favorite issue. He wanted to buy the Hungarian
   National Debt and using his influence he wanted to introduce an "open" 
   political
   system. The "extremist" and "racist" Jozsef Antall disclosed these facts.
   Now he wants something, which seems to be even worst than his original
   ideas.

7. He tried to undermine the Hungarian bank system trying to occupy
   OTP (the largest and most important bank in Hungary) by a plot.
   (OTP is under moderate, not anti-hungarian communist rule. It is very 
   painful for the liberal anti-hungarian extremists who are the best 
   friends of Soros.)
   
8. Hundreds of other things.

I think,  if 10% of my statements were true, it would be enough reason 
to get rid of Soros. I hope the next governement oust him and his 
Foundation from the country.
I find it very sad and almost ridiculous that a person can buy a significant
part of the entelectuals of a nation. It is due to the present economical
and political situation. The communism weekened the nation so much that
it lost all of its ability to resist these type of actions.

But I hope our eyes will be opened and we have the ability to take the 
necessary action.

I do not say that everybody is bad who accepted or applied for Soros
Stipendium. Media and the press misleaded the people. People, like
Victor Orban (president of the FIDESY-MPP), who spent a lot of time in 
the US learning the extreme liberalism (brrrrrr....) by the help of Soros
Foundation, can change their opinion if they are openminded, faithful
to the Hungarian nation and intellectually honest.

I do not suggest to any Hungarian to have connection with him or his 
Foundations.

As I suggested in my previous mail on this issue, (Subject: Answer to
the open letter of Csaba Zoltani) it is possible that a jury do not
find these facts completely provable by its standards. But in politics 
I think it is enough that they are not refutable. We cannot prove
everything without doubt, because using a complicated strategy one can 
generate so complicated cases which is not possible to uncover in 100 years
while we do not have 100 days to take the anaviodable actions.
And we also do not have the right to collect data on Soros on certain ways
which could help as to justify our statements without doubt.

In my opinion well founded unrefutable serious doubt and some really proved 
statements which support these doubts  should be enough in politics 
to take the necessary steps.
In this issue this is the case. To decide what is the intention of
Soros with the National Debt for example, only one person can say
sure things. Soros Himself. This comes from the epistemological situation.
But humans have the ability to guess the real intentions of the others.
They are wrong several times, sometimes very wrong, but the existence of
this ability is one of the reason why we can survive. So for me the 
suggestion in non-scientific or
judical issues that not to take these guesses, and to restrict orselves
only for pure facts seems to be extremely ridiculous. Especially because
those "proved facts" usually not more than widespread interpretation
of certain feelings and social patterns.

If one read through this short list he or she can see that it is not short
at all. This is the other reason why I could not give detailed information
at least in this very day.

But I hope, I can enclose soon the results of investigations against Soros
which is continued by the US Finance Ministry. :-)

But the BCCI story showed that to uncover the crimes of a bank or
other big financial institution takes about 10 years. So Soros 
has 6 years in the US. (But I hope, he has only 6 months in Hungary.)

And this happens only if there is no serious lobby
in the state who wants to wash clean the participants. The story of Maxwell
brothers and O.J. Simpson showed that it is not possible to punish
criminals if a serious lobby has  certain political and/or financial
interest in it.


Best regards,

Tibor Odor

>>Bocsass meg, te naci vagy?

>Szoval oregem, csak annyit tudok mondani, hogy naci a jo kurva anyad.

>Remelem valaszom kielegito volt, es sikerult meggyozni allaspontomrol.

A sztori tetszik, de a valaszodbol nem derul ki egyertelmuen, hogy az
vagy-e. En mar nem merem megkerdezni, mert felek, hogy nekem is
hasonlot valaszolsz, es a csunya beszedtol en sirogorcsot kapok...
Kaszi