Brigitta Bali > wrote:
>
>             ENGLISH LESSON 101.a for Gyorgy Kovacs
>
>You continue to be as KoVACUOUS as always. Wally is involved in inventive
>wordplay. 

Right on, Brigi!  I'm afraid what we've got here is a failure to
communicate!  Some people want to interpret literally even what is
symbolic.  What can you do with people like that?

Joe

In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) wrote:

> In article >,
 (T.M.Lutas) says:

> >I have no problem with some Hungarian language
> >instruction but it should not dominate so that Romanian language skills are
> >sacrificed. I understand that your position is that Hungarian language 
> >instruction should dominate. I find that position to be short sighted and
> >with negative consequences for hungarian's long-term place inside Romania.
> 
> I agree that non-Romanian ethnics within today's Romanian political borders 
> would only enhance their possibilities and help co-existence by learning
> Romanian (and other languages, too), but this should be allowed to happen
> naturally, in a positive way, not made into some kind of repressive measure
> at assimilation thus breeding resentment and creating problems.

This is interesting. I think that the main protests are aimed at the 
adoption of the current national curriculum. Now a curriculum is a 
document that by its nature forces people to take certain classes and
makes other classes optional. Are you saying that Romania should abandon
national curricula? Or should they make ethnic exceptions? I am interested
in hearing how you would advocate Romanian language instruction in a 
natural, positive way. What do you do with the irredentists who would rather 
sacrifice some of their children's economic possibilities in order to keep
them 'pure' hungarians? Do you let these children do without Romanian 
language skills and suffer higher unemployment rates later in life or do
you avoid the higher social assistance spending 20 years from now and 
make them learn sufficient Romanian now?

> >The difference with the home schooling movement in the West is that people
> >have enough economic opportunity that they can afford to home school. The
> >mother (who usually does the major part of this) might work at a home
business
> >or not work at all in order to devote more of her time to her children. In
> >the situation of Romania, how many people are well off enough to get by on
> >one income 1%, 2%? How many people can start up a home business so that they
> >can work part time and stay with their children to home school? very few 
> >indeed. 
> 
> Granted, up to a point. There is a myth that everyone in the west is 
> well-off. There is a huge amount of pauperization here too, despite the 
> supposedly better economic climate.

I live in the US. I know exactly what you speak about but even the poor in
the US make and spend many times more than the average Romanian. Even 
taking account of the differences in prices that remain, this is still true.

DB

-- 
Romanian Political Pages now are available
Now available!
The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
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In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) wrote:

> In article >,
 (T.M.Lutas) says:
> >
> >In article >,  (George
> >Szaszvari) wrote:

> >As for the increasing use of the
> >ethnic card in Romanian politics isn't this something that we should both
> >work on? Given the brute force realities of the situation the 
> >de-ethnicization of Romanian politics would be in the hungarian minorities 
> >best interest since if we ever were to have ethnic warfare my side would win
.
> >I don't mind shouldering half the burden but all of it?
> >
> >> your argument puts the onus on ethnic groups in Romania to conform 
> >> and be passively assimilated into a monolithic Romanian nation-state 
> >
> >You don't have to be assimilated if you don't want to. You do have to have
> >enough of a common language with us so that extremists and demagogues can't
> >force us apart into warring camps.
> 
> Okay, now that you've dropped the *need to assimilate* argument, let's
> work on showing how strength in diversity can beat the extremists. *Common
> language* also means *common understanding of purpose* (it doean't only 
> refer to the literal linguistic sense), so I hope you mean the latter.

I would hope that a common purpose would be to rebuild our destroyed nation.
To bring about not only a political and economic but also a cultural 
renaissance that will lead to a strong, united Romania that does not need
to fear any of its neighbors and is an example to the world of how good
a small country can be. 

> >> cultural identity. This is where we fundamentally differ. I believe
diversity 
> >> should be encouraged in Romania (and everywhere else): you believe others 
> >> should conform, which is dangerous IMHO. 
> >
> >Diversity is great up to a point. But diversity doesn't mean separatism or
> >irredentism. Do you think those ideas are great to?
> 
> You said *seperatism* and *irredentism*, I didn't! You are clearly keen on
> maintaining current Romanian territories and fear the ethnic groups inside
> those borders. 

correction: I fear those who state that they wish to partition my country.
I respect them enough to believe that they are not just playing a joke.
Those minority ethnics (including many hungarians) who don't wish partition
I don't fear at all as minorities.

> I'm keen on doing away with ALL borders. How about a United
> Europe where provinces and districts of countries become nothing more than
> administrative centres, the local populations largely governing themselves, 
> overseen by Brussels or Strasbourg, or whatever, using their own languages 
> at home as freely as they like with one single language for administrative 
> purposes (say, French, for the sake of argument)?

Absolutely horrible!!! Why would we ever want a unitarian state in Europe
especially when the people in charge of the EU have such a consistently
dreadful history of being big government types. I wouldn't like to trade
Moscow for Brussels as overlord.

> >> You denounce communists, I denounce all totalitarianism. 
> >
> >Don't make me into a nazi before you know my opinions on the subject. I 
> >have no love for any brand of totalitarianism. It is just that to attack
> >naziism is to beat a dead horse 
> 
> It is by no means dead, at all! Disguised under different names, etc, but
> definitely not dead!

I see the far right parties and how they do in elections all over Europe.
They thrive on misery just as their communist bretheren do. But even in
the most fertile of situations such as Romania they don't peak above
15%. They also seem to have no long term staying power. They are a flash
in the pan and electorally irrelevant for the most part. In fact, they 
provide competition to the communists since they appeal to the same sort
of recruits so in their own perverse way, they do *some* good (though I
doubt that this is their intent).

> >while communism is very much alive and
> >well in Romania. I don't think it is unnatural to concentrate on the bigger
> >current threat, do you?
> 
> Of course, fascist and communist dictatorships are very close by completing
> the circle....

So we are agreed that communism is the bigger threat?

> >> (re: Albert Speer's memoirs...the psychological point 
> >> of Nazi rallies was to achieve just this *oneness of identity*. In
contrast,
> >> someone like Akbar the Great and his golden Mughal rule encouraged
diversity
> >> thereby enriching all cultures through cross-fertilization and positive 
> >> fusions, as opposed to repression of them.)
> >
> >Positive fusions and cross-fertilizations occur when people have enough of 
> >a common language so that they can exchange cultural habits
> 
> Yes, but, again, not only in the liguistic sense. Perhaps the most 
> linguistically (and culturally) diverse country in the world is the Indian
> sub-continent, yet the greatest age of cultural fusion happened there under 
> Akbar the Great. We should be looking at and learning from such positive 
> role models in history, not harping on about the negative stuff so much,
> don't you think?

I'm game if you are.

> >So, since I'm not so enthused by this "oneness
> >of identity" either, what's your beef?
> 
> Keep your hair on, and sorry if it seemed like I implied that you were a 
> Nazi; I'm just trying to say how dangerously close one can come to such 
> ideologies when looking to put the responsibility in someone else's lap 
> (another Nazi trick, scapegoating Jews and other *untermenschen* so that 
> people didn't have to look at themselves.) With all the apparent good 
> intentions in the world, it is mighty easy to fall into such traps. As 
> you've said yourself, people like Iliescu must be ousted. This should 
> be followed up with a clear agenda to educate people and make them 
> independently confident enough to dispense with the politics of corruption, 
> hate and short-sightedness.

And calling your opponent a totalitarian or even hinting it was also a 
Nazi trick. They were good at that sort of thing weren't they.

In one of these postings I laid out the core of such an agenda. At least
the final goals. Where would you like to take the discussion from here?

DB

-- 
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ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
o In article >,      o
o Gabor Barsai > wrote:       o
o You searched for the AUTHOR: keeler wally                     o
o                          Ohio State                           o
o Your AUTHOR not found, Nearby AUTHORS are:                    o
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
o In article >       o
o Apr 22/96  (Gyorgy Kovacs):  o
o BTW: Columbus Public Library gave very similar search result. o
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
o From: Melis  Behlil >: Mon, 22 Apr 1996    o
o In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.960422235510.24436A-100000          o
o @vanakam.cc.columbia.edu>                                     o
o Just out of curiosity, I looked at Columbia University's      o
o library systems and there is a Wally Keeler book here,        o
o printed in Canada, I don't remember it's name though.         o
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

The name is Walking on the Greenhouse Roof. An introduction to the book was
written by Dr Alec Lucas, Head of the English Department of McGill
University.

If Goober and KoVACUOUS are unable to locate Wally's book in their
respective library systems, then we can only conclude from their general
dim-wittedness that they get what they pay for -- a $19.95 education. Go to
Columbia boys, or any other real university. Ohio what? 

BTW someone in SCR tried to find Wally out, but SCR was a bit more savvy --
they used a universal library search engine, not the fekete-vonat-local our
Ohio boys used.

Now, Goober, KoVACUOUS, think about why Wally's two other books won't show
up even from a universal library ferrari search.

In article >,
Brigitta Bali > wrote:
>It is part and parcel of the poet's playground to reformulate words and

In article >
 (Gabor Barsai) wrote:
:So who's the poet? The only "poems" I read on the ng are some bad poems
:from you (almost made me throw up)

Your health is irrelevent. Faludy George is healthy. 

:some superb poems from moi 

Toxic waste.

:(but, alas, I am not a poet)

Of you have no capability. You are Mr Bland Gland.

:and some sexist remarks from Wally (in reference to Mrs. Smith)

Still playing the role of the chauvinist octopus, Mr Bland Gland are we?

:and some horrible poems, also from Wally.

YOUR opinion Mr Bland Gland -- also irrelevent.

:I also could not find any books at OSU from Wally.

Because OSU provides you with a $19.95 education. What could you expect.
Try a real university library Mr Bland Gland.

:So what poet are you talking about? Are you talking about poets in 
:general? If yes, what poets do you know? (Not that I care, mind you.)
:I can send you some Nahuatl writings if ya like,

I don't care Mr Bland Gland.

On 28 Apr 1996, SLai768965 wrote:

> Why don't you email me 5 dollars first, you can even save your stamps.
> 
> 
hahaha, that's too old a trick to deceive us

PiotrChruszczewski > wrote:

>
>
>
>On 28 Apr 1996, SLai768965 wrote:
>
>> Why don't you email me 5 dollars first, you can even save your stamps.
>> 
>> 
>hahaha, that's too old a trick to deceive us

How do you email him a note? Scan it in both sides :)


/* Since I had such a hard time finding the right sig, I decided to do this*/
main(){
FILE *i;
if((i=fopen(<insert you fav .sig here>,"rb"))!=NULL){
while(!feof(i)) printf("%c",getc(i));
} /*anyone care to try? I only remember how to deal with binary file :p*/

In article >  "%FNAME%" 
writes:

>  (T. M. Lutas) wrote:
> >In article >, "%FNAME%"
> > wrote:
> >
> >As I read things right now, hungarians want more set asides and more
> >special treatment
> >not true ethnic neutral state action.

Too true, even according to an EC commisioner studying the issue.
 
> Do you really know the meaning of the words you are employing?  What is 
neutral
>  about Romanians 
> reading mostly nationalistic newspapers such as Romania Mare, and encouraging
>  neo-fascist 
> slogans, statements and activities through their support of people like Vadim
>  Tudor. 

.... 'mostly' ...  

untrue to the hilt, Fname. VC Tudor is a dangerous individual, to be sure, but
his star is falling in Romanian politics. 'Romania Mare' or 'Greater Romania'
is, IMHO, a twisting of truth so perverse its untrue; a racist, obscenely
libellous rag that does anything BUT further the true cause of 'Greater
Romania' within a common European home framework. By this, I mean the union
of all Romanians in Romania, Rep. Moldova, Herta and Northern Bucovina into a
visa-free, common cultural and free trade zone. Instead of promoting the human 
rights of Romanians in the Ukraine or Russian military occupation zones (aka
internationally unrecognised 'bandit zones' supported by the kremlin),
VC Tudor and his people are just the old guard Securitate, KGB stooges and 
buddies with Jirinovsky. The Romanian Unionist opposition in Rep. Moldova have 
nothing good to say about them. Whats more, his parliamentary immunity is about
to be lifted (as a prelude to prosecution), and to top it all off, just about 
nobody reads his magazine anymore. They are the most devious of deviants, and 
they should have been 'taken down' long ago. Tudor was even Ceausescus court 
poet, to put a fine point on it, if not confuse the issue further.

In the event of peaceful European progress, everyone should and will forget all
about him, like a bad dream. However, as I have warned others, in the event
of any serious political or military instability in the region (probably 
triggered by social breakdown in the former SU, the bad effects of which will
spread west), somebody will pull Tudor out of a hat, and then all hell will
break loose. There's no telling who he and his gullible redneck goons will go 
after, the Jews, the Hungarians, the Gipsies, the democratic opposition, even 
Iliescu and his top people - whom he has threatened in no uncertain terms ['I 
will be to you, what you were to Ceausescu.'].

My sincere hope is that, if Tudor is prosecuted soon, he is also prosecuted
for fomenting racial tension. He can retire to North Korea, for all I care,
as long as his political input in Romania is ZERO.  

> speak of Romania and "true ethnic neutral state action" when Romania has
>  rehabilitated a 
> convicted war criminal such as Antonescu, and in the same time calls the
>  Hungarians "hortisti" an 
> allusion maybe to Horty who was never sentenced as a war criminal.  How dare
>  you speak of ethnic 
> neutrality when your people continue to persecute Gypsies, Hungarians, and th
e
>  few Jews that are 
> still left by denigrating them publicly, in newspapers and other publications
>  whose support you 
> provide by continuing to buy and read them?  Where is your sense of decency i
n
>  light of these 
> facts?

Antonescu is not a rehabilitated figure, except at some misguidedly nostalgic, 
forgetful small minority level. Tudor and co. are responsible. They tipped the
scales. The newspapers you speak of, have a very very small circulation, of 
very small political significance. 
 
> >> Unless there truly is a 
> >> difference, in the sense of "some people are created equal but some are
> >more equal 
> >> than others" which happens to be what I personally believe.
> >
> >> PS I truly hope and wish all Hungarians that Transylvania will not
> >remain a "Romanian 
> >> Province" 
> >
> >Thank you for making it so abundently clear that you really don't want 
equality> >of rights in Romania but more rights for hungarians than romanians 
have in
  their
> >own country.
> >
> >DB
> 
> I want equality of rights for all people, but I also hope for justice.  
Romania
>  was never able 
> to prove her claim to Transylvania from a historical standpoint. 

You forget the Union of 1919, and the Declaration of Independence on the 
Field of Liberty, at Blaj, Transylvania, in 1848. The latter is significant 
precisely because it took place in Transylvania. Did I forget to mention 
1600 A.D., and the union of the three principalities by Mihai Viteazul ?
Read and weep. Must we go around in circles, or are you simply a right-wing
propagandist having a field day on scr, like colonel whathisface from the USAF?

> She never 
> had
>  any right to 
> it. 

Hungary has no right it, after the long, dark centuries of oppression
to which our people (always a majority population) were subjected.

Basarab Voda gave us the right to it back in the 15th century
when his army rained boulders and arrows on top of the Magyar army in the
narrow Carpathian passes. That's when we 'took the high ground' properly
so to speak.  

> The fact that through the resettlement policies of the former communist
>  government more 
> Romanians live there now than Hungarians speaks to absolutely nothing.

Romania now has as much to answer for as far the former regimes 
treatment of Hungarians vis-a-vis resettlement policies, as you and colonel 
whatshisface have to answer for the treatment of Romanians in Transilvania 
during WW2, assuming he wasn't around in WW2 !! :(. 

> By the
>  way, are you 
> aware of how many Romanians in that region would prefere to be part of 
Hungary?

No, do tell.

Lots of Albanians want to be part of Greece too ! - NOT - just to use a more
extreme example.

>   The answer may 
> surprize you.  May I remind you that Hungary had accept almost 40,000 Romania
n
>  refugees during 
> the times of Ceausescu, some of whom she absorbed,, offered assistance to and
>  helped them find 
> their way to the West.  

Yes, I know, and I have mentioned it favorably before. However, it wasn't all 
roses. Some Romanians faced mistreatment at the hands of racist Hungarian
police, if I remember personal accounts of acquaintances correctly. This led
to some running battles in Budapest, on occasion. Are we going to open up 
every single old wound in existence ? 

> I doubt seriously that Romania would have done the
>  same.

Crap with a capital C. I reject your statement out of hand:

Romania has received refugees from countries around the world throughout
history, from Russian religious rejects in the 19th century (which settled in
the Danube Delta); to refugees from
all over the balkans during the Ottoman period, to whom she provided a haven
of Orthodoxy, relative stability, and a good place to run incursions from 
against the Turks; to Polish refugees at the beginning of WW2, along with part 
of their govt. in exile and national treasure, which never fell into the hands 
of the nazis, but found its way to England; all the way to South American 
refugees from right wing juntas; and at present refugees from African political
turmoil. Oh and, let's not forget the Kurdish parliament in exile, which is 
supposed to be based in Romania at present ....... Romanian treatment of
refugees from all over the globe, has been nothing less then exemplary, to 
be fair, as has Hungary's as far as I know on the whole, or Englands, at least
back in the 80's .... . So pull the other one, it's got a knob on it.

> This my friend 
> is what being civilized is all about.  Take a look and learn.

As per my above paragraph, take a hockey stick, and get the puck outta here. 

The right wing political demagoguery in Romania is the same phenomenon as the 
growing right-wing and skinhead movements in Hungary, but in a different form, 
so it's time that you step down from your high chair. 

& *you* take a look. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired of
all the sweeping, gratuitous moral judgements on this topic.I firmly reject
all moral judgement. Lots of countries in this world have problems, including 
Hungary, I hear from first hand evidence. If you have nothing to offer but 
sweeping moral judgement followed by summary condemnation, then remember:
you also have the right to remain silent, so you might as well shut up!

--
Grigore

In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) wrote:

> In article >, 
>  (T.M.Lutas) says:

> >The question is whether Romanian or 
> >Hungarian language instruction is beneficial for a young child of hungarian
> >ethnicity who is born and will live his life out in Romania. I believe
> >that most of the instruction should be in Romanian to ensure that the child
> >will have full access to whatever economic opportunities will be out there
> >when he gets out of school. 
> 
> I have no objection to Romanian language classes in school (that would only
> be sensible) but object to the implied notion that the Romanian language 
> should be forced on other non-Romanian ethnic groups in their home lives,
> from birth onwards. This is the sort of thing that Meciar's language law
> in Slovakia is creeping towards (and it's unadulterated fascism.)

I certainly didn't intend to imply any such thing. I certainly never 
stated it. If you are competent enough in Romanian that you don't suffer
economically, if you know enough of Romanian culture that at least you
understand the majority society, that is enough for the state to teach.

What I see and I worry about is the tendency of some hungarian irredentists
to try separating our two communities as a prelude to carving up Romania.
As long as this is avoided then have all the hungarian language instruction
you want.

DB

-- 
Romanian Political Pages now are available
Now available!
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In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) wrote:

> In article >,
 (T.M.Lutas) says:

> >With the Iliescu government in place, this situation simply will not change.
> >Iliescu gets his votes from people so desparately poor that they have no 
> >time or energy to discover how much he steals from them. To keep power he
> >must maintain a high level of people who depend on him to give them what
> >few economic goods they get. In return he gets their votes.
> 
> So how do you propose to get rid of Iliescu? 

I plan to vote for Prof. Constantinescu. I also plan to donate as much as I
can to his campaign. And I also encourage everyone that I speak with to do
the same and to use whatever skills that they have in service to his campaign.

Constantinescu is looking towards the west, not the east. I think that this
is in the interests of all Romanians whatever their ethnicity.

DB

-- 
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Now available!
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In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) wrote:

> In article >,
 (T.M.Lutas) says:

> >In article >,  (George
> >Szaszvari) wrote:

> >> Anyway, Spanish was spoken in the south-west long before the drive west
> >> brought English there. I'd say that Hispanics have a right to speak Spanis
h
> >> if they want to. 
> >
> >It isn't a matter of rights at all. If hispanics want to remain migrant 
> >farm workers, living miserable lives and dying young then they have no 
> >need of english beyond the warning labels on the pesticide bottles and 
> >even then that sort of job will still go to an good english speaker. 

> This is a bit of silly over-simplification, isn't it? 

Of course it is. This is Usenet! If I were to go into the entire detailed 
mess that is US immigration policy we would not only bore a vast majority
of the group that is going to read our exchange but we would be traveling
well beyond what can be argued as being in the group's charter.

> As I've 
> stated before, there are plenty of well-to-do Hispanics in SW USA, 

Sure there are. Almost all of them, if not all of them, speak english 
very well. 

> and 
> plenty of relatively poor whites and blacks. What's more, Hispanics have 
> their own cultural centres, TV programmes, work in banks, own successful
> businesses etc. 

Yes they do, as hungarian ethnics should as well. But hispanics have done
this on their own dime. If anything hungarians should be chomping at the bit
for fast privatization which will allow them to be rich enough in 10 years
or so to start building a similar private cultural network. I would 
welcome that as a genuine addition to Romania, not a budget fight for
scarce public funds when budget items like public pensions are not keeping 
up with inflation. Even if hungarians win that kind of fight it is a phyrric
victory. The resentment caused by the losers is going to lead to a build
up of ethnic tensions that all sides but especially hungarians are going
to lose because of.

> If dangerous products are used in areas where warning 
> notices are in a foreign language 

foreign language??? Insert foot in mouth.

> the onus is on the government and/or 
> local authorities to have appropriate translations of the warnings on the 
> goods (as would/should happen in Britain with dangerous EC products), not
> say: *Tough, if you were contanimated by this pesticide! You should have
> learned English!*. Such reasoning is something like an Iliescu argument.

I went out into the garage while composing this response and sure enough, 
the labels of pesticide that I found there are in english only. There may
be some companies that do it bilingually. There may have even been spanish
language inserts in the original boxes but what is on the label is small
print english. And yes, I am sure that there have been people who have had
their health harmed by it. But this is the US, land of immigrants, not
Romania that we are discussing here. This doesn't give Romania a pass or
an excuse but it does show that not even 1st world nations follow all the
rules that some in them would impose on struggling E. European nations like
Romania.

> >The economy of the future that these kids are going to enter after 10 or
> >20 years is going to have a greater and greater need for communications 
> >skills than in the past. If you are in an english speaking country you
> >had better be able to speak english well. 
> 
> Predominantly English, but it's still a multilingual country, isn't it? 

This is a huge debate in the US and has been for a few years now. Large
persistent majorities favor english being the only official language in 
the US. Usually this means that sooner or later it's going to become law.
Right now, I guess you would call the US a non-lingual country. It has no
official language for the entire country though municipalities and even
states have adopted english. However this is not the case in Romania.

Romania has one official language, Romanian.

> >If you are in a Romanian speaking
> >country, speaking Romanian is going to be necessary to keeping up with 
> >your neighbors. And if the Romanian state doesn't make sure that it happens
> >then it is doing a disservice not to the romanian ethnics but to the
> >hungarians.
> 
> So the Romanian state isn't up to doing it's job, thus non-Romanian 
> ethnics must carry the burden? I'm afraid you are transferring the onus 
> of responsibility to the most vulnerable members of that society. 

I think that you misunderstand me. The Romanian government's job is to
make sure that all it's citizen's understand and can communicate in 
romanian. As I understand it, this is what it is trying to do over the
protests of some very loud hungarian irredentists.

> >I worry about
> >ghettoization of hungarian minorities out of neighborly concern, if you
> >want a lower standard of living then at least stop complaining about 
> >Romanian discrimination when it happens. 
> 
> Huh??

If you separate and do not learn romanian language and culture enough to
gain economic parity with Romanians hungarian ethnic's living standard's
are going to suffer. We have both agreed that this is a possibility. What
worries me is the example of America where statistical discrepancies are
viewed as damning evidence of discrimination and all alternate explanations
are dismissed. 

DB

-- 
Romanian Political Pages now are available
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I am trying to collect material to form a database of the names of
wild plants in all the ‘living’ European languages. This is a long
term piece of research, which I hope will become useful to many
people.
Can anyone contribute? If you have significant numbers of names
for wild plants - their Latin names together with their names
in the Magyar language, or know where they are to be found, or
knows someone who does, I would be glad to hear from you!
("Wild plants" includes trees, shrubs, flowers, ferns, grasses,
waterweeds and so on.)
Information could be in electronic form (preferably, as it will
help me a lot with any special characters and difficult spellings!),
but printed books and lists, book titles &c. or any other
information will be of value too.
The Latin - English list is now very complete, would anyone
like information from that in return?
Please reply (in English apart from the Latin and Hungarian
names of course!) by email.
If you are just interested in botany I
would love to hear from you too.

Many Thanks...

Andrew N Gagg

Wally Keeler ) wrote:
: T. Kocsis > wrote:
: |I only write some tipical words of the five geniuses to characterize them.
: |south - cheerful, serene life ideal | Berzsenyi belongs to here.
: |west - cultivatedness and social balance | Szecheny is tipical.
: |north - closeness to nature, sensitivity | Hamvas put Petofi here
: |east -  yearning for freedom
: |Erdely - intricate richness
: |
: |Hamvas says that an average european only has to unit and con-
: |ciliate to form his/her individuality. We have five such geniuses
: |and three of them ( east, west, erdely) are very difficult to
: |reconcile. Only the five together form a full hungarian psyche, full
: |magyar personality. (Jokai, Csokonay seems to manage that)

: Each genius seems to designate a particular cultural configuration. One's
: personality is a result of growing up within a particular culture -- mind
: set, values, etc. For centuries this was fine because travel was restricted
: to walking and the horse up until the current century. If the suicide rate
: was low in Hungary's past, perhaps it was because there was little exposure
: to the assorted geniuses. This lent itself to stability of character. 
self-defined tautology... logical positivism at best... or are you suggesting
an environmental determinism unique to a particular culture thru isolation???


: With
: the advent of cars, radio, tv, the exposure of the assorted geniuses to one
: another increased along with the need to reconcile what a Hungarian was.
: The suggestion is that Hungarians suffer from an identity crisis.
language makes our identity (see Whorf, Piaget, Chomsky et al)... 
how do the native canadians enter this process???

: Canada's native people may suffer from this same sort of phenomenon. The
: Natives suffered from an assortment of benign neglect, apartheidism,
: assimilation, at the hands of the colonizers. Over two hundred years,
: Anglo-Franco culture dominated and the Native cultures had no way to
: maintain their own distinctiveness. Now we have a situation where it is
: impossible for a Native to fully live the Native way as did his ancestors.
: Lakes and rivers are polluted. Urban development. Tv. Radio. Movies. There
: are very few left who are sustaining themselves from hunting, fishing,
: trapping and leading a nomadic way of life. This "cultural genocide" has
: been an important contributing factor to the high suicide rate.
oh! Woe is me! i can't buy AA batteries for my Walkman, i think i'll kill 
myself now...

: (Economic conditions and poverty are non-starters as a causitive factor --
: suicide rates are higher in more economically advanced countries than in
: third world countries. And there are no studies which have determined that
: suicide is more likely to occur among the lower economic class than among the
: middle or upper class).
your kidding. the opposite is true, namely suicide is a burgeous road for 
those whose material quests lead to a cosmic dead end (see Marcuse, Maslow,
Ornstein) on second thought, was that your point?

: Canadians have always had an identity "crisis". It differs from the immigrant
: society to our south where the process of assimilation prevails, rather
: than Canada's general policy of integration, not assimilation. Canada has
: no fixed identity -- never has. (I personally like this very much. In July
: 1985, there was considerable disdain when I spoke at the Schoeffer Seminarium
: in the city of Kalosca -- there was a Hungarian cultural assembly there of
: many of Hungary's creme de la creme of the avante garde -- and expressed my
: personal delight that I had no cultural history, no cultural identity. I
: expressed it as freedom. Canada is in a perpetual state of becoming.) 
what does your cultural independence have to do with you being Hungarian?
is it that you think yourself Canadian to be a serum against suicide?

: The cohesiveness of Canada as a country is in some doubt, what with Quebec
: posturing for sovreignty, and within Quebec, the Cree and Inuit, posturing
: that they can also be sovereign. (Very interesting) However, it has not
: lead to higher rates of suicide. Perhaps this could be explained away by
: the fact that Canadians have never had a genius to begin with, so they are
: starting with a clean slate. It is not a matter of reconciling to anything
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^
ahso, another example of cultural tabula rasa (gimme a break the brits and 
frogs have never been clean of anything but genius) 

: -- it is a matter of personal adjustments within the world's first post-moder
n
: state. 
you must be leading an interesting life (see Lao Tse, Hayakawa, Watts... or
Jaynes, Harris, or Ornstein if you like)


: |The problem with these geniuses, that if they are not reconciled they
: |become demonical because the geniuses are archeotipical qualities. It
: |results the tipical Hungarian irrational hatred to each other. 
the hatred is NOT irrational... unfortunately, it's real!

: Ok, so we have groups in conflict with each other. Is this a recent cultural
: phenomenon (20th century) or has this "irrational hatred" been a long term
: historical feature? I have not heard of this 5 genius postulate and it is ver
y
: interesting. It would seem that a prima facie case has been made which
: concludes that Hungary's high suicide rate is a cultural manifestation and if
: this is the case, then suicide and goulash go together as easily as mom and
: apple pie.
the most simple and elegant explanans is materialism, which the hungarian 
culture/language abhores, but the german/austrian influence has imported and 
yoked upon our culture... if you own the apple pie, the apple pie owns YOU mom!

nice thinkies wally!

janos

Brigitta Bali > wrote:
>
>             ENGLISH LESSON 101.a for Gyorgy Kovacs
>
>You continue to be as KoVACUOUS as always. Wally is involved in inventive
>wordplay. 

) Joe Pannonescu wrote:
|Right on, Brigi!  I'm afraid what we've got here is a failure to
|communicate!  Some people want to interpret literally even what is
|symbolic.  What can you do with people like that?

Regardless of how difficult it was for me to sometimes swallow your fertile
wit ;-) I would suggest that you lance the infertile toxic banalities and
flush them downstream for processing at the Cernavoda Nuclear Power Plant;
they should provide enough power to light up a 10 watt bulb long enough for
a gang of medieval Romanians to gather up their rakes and hoes for a Gypsy
house-swarming.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >,  > wrote:
>Brigitta Bali > wrote:
>>
>>             ENGLISH LESSON 101.a for Gyorgy Kovacs
>>
>>You continue to be as KoVACUOUS as always. Wally is involved in inventive
>>wordplay. 
>
>Right on, Brigi!  I'm afraid what we've got here is a failure to
>communicate!  Some people want to interpret literally even what is
>symbolic.  What can you do with people like that?
>
>Joe
You can love them, you can hate them, you can ignore them, but you can't shut 
them up.
GK

In article >,
Brigitta Bali > wrote:
>Now, Goober, KoVACUOUS, think about why Wally's two other books won't show
>up even from a universal library ferrari search.

Because Wally's a sexist pig? A tragedy of a human lie?
Wally wrote two books? Wow, I'm impressed...
Maybe you and Wally should look into Nahuatl or Quechua poetry.

Gabor

In article >,
Brigitta Bali > wrote:
>Your health is irrelevent. Faludy George is healthy.

What is this garbage? "Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated"?

>:(but, alas, I am not a poet)
>
>Of you have no capability. You are Mr Bland Gland.

Does oo spik Inglish? You are talking about an interest which is not there.

>:and some sexist remarks from Wally (in reference to Mrs. Smith)
>
>Still playing the role of the chauvinist octopus, Mr Bland Gland are we?

Well, I never made a sexist remark.

>Because OSU provides you with a $19.95 education. What could you expect.
>Try a real university library Mr Bland Gland.

Well, this is the largest campus in the US, a real country, unlike Canada.

Gabor

I posted a bait for Wally, and guess who was the first to bite it: His
favourite sidekick Brigi.
She writes:

> Wally is involved in inventive wordplay.
Last time Wally was inventive, was when he managed to use the toilet alone for
the first time (last week or so). He claims to be creative, but he keeps the
same misspellings over and over, and thinks that its poetry. Well, my little
poor pseudo-poets (I know I used this before, but I'm not a poet either),
poetry is not about making up new words. Kids do it all the time. The REAL
poetry is when you can put together existing words in a manner pleasing to the
reader. That might be the answer to your question:

> why Wally's two other books won't show up even from a universal library
ferrari
> search.
They only keep poetry, not pseudo-poetry.

>Remember when Wally gave you your first English lesson:
Nope, I gave him 3 in a row. He did not learn. Neither did you.

>Wally wrote: misogynist
>Gyorgy Kovacs wrote: whatever the heck that means
Wally still could not come up with a curriculum for which this word is
essential. Besides it sounds like you are the ones who hate real women, not me.

> I don't think that the Romanians would appreciate your racist remark
This is probably the first thing we agree on, except for one thing: it was not
a racist, but a chauvinist remark (check the dictionary, Ms English101).

>It is not a spelling error -- it is inventive wordplay, an element of
>creativity.
My deep blue eyes. Either of you still have to come up creating something
USEFUL which is the measure of REAL CREATIVITY. Poetry can be useful, but your
pseudo-poetry has a lot to improve to get there. Might help to learn the
existing words before making up bogus ones. Just to feed you some ammo, I
confess: after Petofi and Arany, my favourite poets are Jeno Heltai and Jozsef
Romhanyi.

Something for Wally so he won't feel totally ignored:
>Brigitta, what are you doing dragging this Magyar meathead into SCR?
As long as you are on SCR, you are safe. I don't read it. It was probably Brigi
who started crossposting.

Date: Sun Apr 28 09:35:38 EDT 1996

>Do you think he could really learn from an English lesson from anyone?
I could and I did. Your turn.

>We spent a month on him in SCM and The Black Hole of Vacuity couldn't
>bring himself to be inventive with language if his life depended on it.
I would rather rely on REAL skills, than misspelling for life saving purposes.

Best Regards,
GK

In article >,  says...
>
>Whoever is collecting a list of different translations of "I love you"
>would you please send me a list of what you have so far. thanks,


ß ňĺá˙ ëţáëţ   - This is Russian language.

In article >,
 (Gabor Barsai) wrote:

> To survive in the US, it is foolish not to know English, but it is foolish
> also to know just only English. Substitute 'US' and 'English' for whatever 
> country you like, and the 'official' language there.

I'll be happy to go along with this statement.

-- 
Now available on the Romanian Political Pages
The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

In article >, 
os.com (T.M.Lutas) says:

>> Okay, now that you've dropped the *need to assimilate* argument, let's
>> work on showing how strength in diversity can beat the extremists. *Common
>> language* also means *common understanding of purpose* (it doean't only 
>> refer to the literal linguistic sense), so I hope you mean the latter.

>I would hope that a common purpose would be to rebuild our destroyed nation.
>To bring about not only a political and economic but also a cultural 
>renaissance that will lead to a strong, united Romania that does not need
>to fear any of its neighbors and is an example to the world of how good
>a small country can be. 

>> I'm keen on doing away with ALL borders. How about a United [snip]

>Absolutely horrible!!! Why would we ever want a unitarian state in Europe
>especially when the people in charge of the EU have such a consistently
>dreadful history of being big government types. I wouldn't like to trade
>Moscow for Brussels as overlord.

Of course not under the current system as it stands! Do away with national 
borders and let people get on with their own lives, but not in the way it 
is done now, with national interests vying with each other. The EC has done 
a lot of good and has also made mistakes. Mainly, it's too bureaucratic,
syphoning off funds into black holes. Without national boundaries and a 
streamlined bureaucracy the better points of the EC will become evident.
Another important point is to have a single European language besides one's 
own indigenous language. Surely you agree that unifying the linguistic 
aspect of a Unified Europe would solve a lot of problems? (as you keep 
insisting should happen in Romania.) This doesn't mean do away with local
languages, rather encourage them, but alongside a European (if not global)
standard of communication (French, Esperanto, English. whatever might be 
considered most suitable.) BTW Are you really equating the EC with Soviet 
rule in Eastern Europe? If so, then that's absurd! Stand for another period 
in corner with funny hat on.

[snip]
>>>contrast, someone like Akbar the Great and his golden Mughal rule 
>>>encouraged diversity thereby enriching all cultures through cross-
>>>fertilization and positive fusions, as opposed to repression of them.)
>> >
>I'm game if you are.
>
>> >So, since I'm not so enthused by this "oneness
>> >of identity" either, what's your beef?
>> 
>> Keep your hair on, and sorry if it seemed like I implied that you were a 
>> Nazi; I'm just trying to say how dangerously close one can come to such 
>> ideologies when looking to put the responsibility in someone else's lap 
[snip]
>
>And calling your opponent a totalitarian or even hinting it was also a 
>Nazi trick. They were good at that sort of thing weren't they.

Don't be silly. It's still bugging you, huh? Do I need to repeat the above 
paragraph? Are you trying to say that I'm a Nazi now, or what?

>In one of these postings I laid out the core of such an agenda. At least
>the final goals. Where would you like to take the discussion from here?

Please specify your agenda (apart from everyone in Romania needing to
speak Romanian, which is not an issue with me so long as other languages
and cultures are not repressed at the same time.)

Regards
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PeeCee..PCDOS..Win-OS/2 * NW London Computer Club
 ICPUG..Commodore=64 ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list!

In article >, 
os.com (T.M.Lutas) says:
>
>Yes they do, as hungarian ethnics should as well. But hispanics have done
>this on their own dime. If anything hungarians should be chomping at the bit
>for fast privatization which will allow them to be rich enough in 10 years
>or so to start building a similar private cultural network. I would 
>welcome that as a genuine addition to Romania, not a budget fight for
>scarce public funds when budget items like public pensions are not keeping 
>up with inflation. Even if hungarians win that kind of fight it is a phyrric
>victory. The resentment caused by the losers is going to lead to a build
>up of ethnic tensions that all sides but especially hungarians are going
>to lose because of.

So just let the same freedom of opportunity exist for Hungarians (and 
other ethnics) in Romania, too. I'm not asking for preferential 
treatment and I'm sure most people not of Romanian descent wouldn't 
want it any other way, either. The answer here seems to be to go for
your desire of massive privatization.....so be it. What about the powers 
that be? Wouldn't they be worried about such a drastic step away from 
centralization?

Public pensions is a problem world-wide btw. In Britain and the US
it is reckoned that anyone without a private pension in the next century
will be on the scrap heap by retirement age (if they can remain employed
long enough to afford one in the first place.)

>> If dangerous products are used in areas where warning 
>> notices are in a foreign language 
>
>foreign language??? Insert foot in mouth.

Not so fast! It means foreign to the people reading it, i.e., *foreign 
language* as in a language that is alien to them. Put funny hat on and 
stand in corner.

>> the onus is on the government and/or 
>> local authorities to have appropriate translations of the warnings on the 
>> goods (as would/should happen in Britain with dangerous EC products), not
>> say: *Tough, if you were contanimated by this pesticide! You should have
>> learned English!*. Such reasoning is something like an Iliescu argument.
>
>I went out into the garage while composing this response and sure enough, 
>the labels of pesticide that I found there are in english only. There may
>be some companies that do it bilingually. There may have even been spanish
>language inserts in the original boxes but what is on the label is small
>print english. And yes, I am sure that there have been people who have had
>their health harmed by it. [snip]

Minus points to the US govt and local authorities! They should be setting 
a better example!

>> >The economy of the future that these kids are going to enter after 10 or
>> >20 years is going to have a greater and greater need for communications 
>> >skills than in the past. If you are in an english speaking country you
>> >had better be able to speak english well. 
>> 
>> Predominantly English, but it's still a multilingual country, isn't it? 
>
>Romania has one official language, Romanian.

Aaah...with absolutely no regard for any other languages or cultures
at all, never mind that certain languages indigenous to some of those 
territories have been spoken there for centuries, right?

>> So the Romanian state isn't up to doing it's job, thus non-Romanian 
>> ethnics must carry the burden? I'm afraid you are transferring the onus 
>> of responsibility to the most vulnerable members of that society. 
>
>I think that you misunderstand me. The Romanian government's job is to
>make sure that all it's citizen's understand and can communicate in 
>romanian. 

I'd have thought that any govt's duty was to be concerned with ALL their
citizens' rights and interests (and taking careful note of the more 
vulnerable members of that society.) Not in Romania, apparently, according
to what you're writing.

>As I understand it, this is what it is trying to do over the
>protests of some very loud hungarian irredentists.

Suggesting that govt policy is knee-jerk reaction to a bunch of noisy 
irredentists. Very disappointing! How come the Hungarians in Burgenland
(annexed into Austria since WWII) doesn't have a bunch of noisy irredentists
demanding that territory be repatriated back to Hungary? I'm sure they're
all sood Austrian citizens now, learn and speak German when they need to
and speak Hungarian at home as they like. Of course, during the communist 
era they were largely glad to be in Austria, but it still bears some
thought.

Regards
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PeeCee..PCDOS..Win-OS/2 * NW London Computer Club
 ICPUG..Commodore=64 ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list!

In article >, 
os.com (T.M.Lutas) says:

>> So how do you propose to get rid of Iliescu? 
>
>I plan to vote for Prof. Constantinescu. I also plan to donate as much as I
>can to his campaign. And I also encourage everyone that I speak with to do
>the same and to use whatever skills that they have in service to his campaign.
>Constantinescu is looking towards the west, not the east. I think that this
>is in the interests of all Romanians whatever their ethnicity.

Sounds very good. Best of luck!

Regards
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PeeCee..PCDOS..Win-OS/2 * NW London Computer Club
 ICPUG..Commodore=64 ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list!

In article >, 
os.com (T.M.Lutas) says:
>
>This is interesting. I think that the main protests are aimed at the 
>adoption of the current national curriculum. Now a curriculum is a 
>document that by its nature forces people to take certain classes and
>makes other classes optional. Are you saying that Romania should abandon
>national curricula? 

Anyone should abandon any curriculum that is so woodenly inflexible 
that it does not meet the needs of the people it's supposed to benefit.
It is typical that many rules about what people should learn and do 
(how to behave, etc) are made by uncomprehending career politicians and 
mindless career bureaucrats to the great detriment of society (and you
know what that means when nationalistic propagandists start to influence
such things.)

>Or should they make ethnic exceptions? I am interested in hearing how you 
>would advocate Romanian language instruction in a natural, positive way. 

As you've said yourself, ethnics should learn the modicum of the predominant
language to sufficiently get by. If it isn't rammed down peoples' throats
it won't be resented. It has a lot to do with how it's done (peculiar to 
every unique situation) and most importantly, the attitude of the authority 
presenting a community with such an obligation/choice. The less it seems l
ike an obligation enforced by a domineering overlord intent on replacing an 
indigenous long-standing inheritance (taking their soul, if you will) the 
more likely it is to be accepted and enjoyed as something enriching, useful,
to be shared and all the rest. Can that be done if the authority makes it 
clear that people must learn a language to kill off any irredentist paranoia
that authority might have? Hardly! It's going to cause resentment. The way 
to do it is to put oneself in the place of the person/people one wishes to 
persuade (in this case, to learn Romanian.) Understand THEIR mind. Applaud 
and support the Hungarian language/cultural inheritance, be positive about 
that person's/people's assets, make them feel good about it and let tham 
know that YOU feel good about it, too. Encourage them! Show them the 
positive similarities and binding points between both your positive aspects 
and you will naturally come together in harmony. Then people will WANT to 
learn Romanian and be part of that positive feeling. Some people reading 
this will think it's some kind of arrogant mystical claptrap, but I assure 
you that it works for me and the people who taught me this approach. The 
trick is to actively replace the negative with the positive. Having said all 
that, it can, of course, be easier to talk about than actually implement, 
but then we all have our ups and downs, even the best of us ;-)

>What do you do with the irredentists who would rather 
>sacrifice some of their children's economic possibilities in order to keep
>them 'pure' hungarians? 

You spend too much time and effort on this irredentist stuff. Any non-
ethnic Romanian will see it as negative paranoia and obviously resent it. 
BTW nobody is pure anything. Not pure Hungarian, Romanian, German, Aryan, 
or whatever. We had that out in our initial exchanges. I don't have any 
time for that kind of false uebermensch mentality born of lack of real self-
confidence. It's a prop that is a recipe for ignorance and the inevitable 
arrogance (with all the consequences that we are only too aware of.)

>Do you let these children do without Romanian 
>language skills and suffer higher unemployment rates later in life or do
>you avoid the higher social assistance spending 20 years from now and 
>make them learn sufficient Romanian now?

See above.

>>  There is a myth that everyone in the west is 
>> well-off. There is a huge amount of pauperization here too, despite the 
>> supposedly better economic climate.
>
>I live in the US. I know exactly what you speak about but even the poor in
>the US make and spend many times more than the average Romanian. Even 
>taking account of the differences in prices that remain, this is still true.

Regards
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PeeCee..PCDOS..Win-OS/2 * NW London Computer Club
 ICPUG..Commodore=64 ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list!

In article 
Enike  > wrote:
>Gabi:
>
>Don't waste your bandwidth.  Neither can read for comprehension and just

Ah, why not. Maybe some Nahuatl will do good for her:


Atl, xochitla ihuan ixtlahuac,
ahuaixca te xochihuiliztli quitlacatilia,
ca incemanca tequipanoliztica
mopilhuan quixochicualotilia.

This can be found at Xochimilco.

Now this...this is creative.

Gabor

 (Gabor Barsai) writes:

>Well, this is the largest campus in the US, a real country, unlike Canada.
                                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Gabor

	Obviouszlyi.

Eddie

In article >, 
os.com (T.M.Lutas) says:

>What I see and I worry about is the tendency of some hungarian irredentists
>to try separating our two communities as a prelude to carving up Romania.
>As long as this is avoided then have all the hungarian language instruction
>you want.

May I suggest that less paranoia over irredentists and more attention 
with getting Romania on its feet as an economically rich and culturally 
diverse and happy place would be much more beneficial to ALL concerned? 
To keep going on about Hungarians and the problems they're supposedly 
causing in Romania smacks of using them as an alibi for the shortcomings 
of the people who might otherwise be getting their own act together.

Regards
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
 Acorn..RISC OS * IBM PeeCee..PCDOS..Win-OS/2 * NW London Computer Club
 ICPUG..Commodore=64 ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list!

Gabi:

Don't waste your bandwidth.  Neither can read for comprehension and just 
hang around these ngs to try and pick fights to occupy their otherwise 
lame lives.  Ms. Bali doesn't understand what it means to forward 
something to someone (duh-that's how I see the garbage spewed forth from 
their idiot fingertips) and Mr. Keeler doesn't know where he's not 
wanted.  It's ironic that he tells the magyar ng that he's leaving to go 
to the romanian ng and spews a racist remark against the Romanians as he 
pretends to leave this ng.  Now he's back and just wants to cause more 
trouble.  Both just display a great need for therapy as their lack of 
lives is affecting them in a rather negative way.  Glad I won't have to 
be around to smell their garbage for the summer.



On 28 Apr 1996, Gabor Barsai wrote:

> 
> In article >,
> Brigitta Bali > wrote:
> >It is part and parcel of the poet's playground to reformulate words and
> 
> So who's the poet? The only "poems" I read on the ng are some bad poems from 
> you (almost made me throw up), some superb poems from moi (but, alas, I am no
t 
> a poet), and some sexist remarks from Wally (in reference to Mrs. Smith), and
 
> some horrible poems, also from Wally. I also could not find any books at OSU 
> from Wally. So what poet are you talking about? Are you talking about poets i
n 
> general? If yes, what poets do you know? (Not that I care, mind you.)
> I can send you some Nahuatl writings if ya like, but you'll have to translate
 
> 'em, I won't do dat for ya.
> 
> Gabor
> 
>