Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 two words translated, please (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
2 Hungarian electronic resources FAQ (mind)  1403 sor     (cikkei)
3 Vlasi (was: Re: Re:Nestor & Vlachs I) (mind)  55 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Revanchist views or paranoia? (mind)  53 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: NATO thoughts (and Internet toughtlessness) (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Queen Elizabeth II s Hungarian great-great-grandmot (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: word order (was Re: Hungarian and ...] (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Hungarian and Sumerian? (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Luggage safety at Ferihegy Airport (mind)  83 sor     (cikkei)
10 WANTED: Budapest->Minneapolis->Budapest ticket 22/27 Au (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: $$ FASTCASH $$ (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: $$ FASTCASH $$ (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: SHOUTING & SWEARING (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: $$ FASTCASH $$ (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Air pollution (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: $$ FASTCASH $$ (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: no comment! with a comment (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: no comment! question (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)

+ - two words translated, please (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello everybody,

could somebody please translate "dark hole" into Hungarian for me? I do have
a vague suspect but I don't dare give it here as I would surely misspell
it. And i know there's a disco in Budapest of this name.

Personal mail would be preferable.

Thank you very much in advance,

(Aachen, Germany)
+ - Hungarian electronic resources FAQ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Archive-name: hungarian-faq
Last-modified: 1995/07/07
Version: 1.01
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days

	Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

               TABLE OF CONTENTS

1.      News and discussion groups in English
1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute
1.2  News from Central Europe Today
1.3  The Hungary Report
1.4  Hungary Online
1.5  Mozaik
1.6  On USENET
1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 
1.8  , a list for Hungarian-Americans

2.      News and discussion groups in Hungarian
2.1  HIX
2.2  Other discussion groups

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web
3.2  Gopher and other interactive services

4.      The Net in Hungary
4.3  FidoNet
4.4  Finding out somebody's email address

5.      Odds and ends
5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary
5.2  Conventions for coding Hungarian accents
5.3  Information sources about the rest of Central and Eastern Europe

6.      Contributors to this FAQ

7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 I know this is very long, perhaps too long for human consumption ;-).
One of the tasks for further editing is to make it more concise,
perhaps drop some parts altogether (I'd like to hear any suggestions).
You can search for the section titles listed above and skip what you
don't want, and many Unix newsreaders would jump ahead to the next one
with Ctrl-G (the format now follows the digest specification)!



 Note: commercial networks -- such as CompuServe or AOL -- may have
their own in-house forums relating to Eastern and Central Europe. Be
aware that those are only open to the subscribers of the particular
service, unlike the discussion groups accessible by anyone via the
Internet and Usenet! This file -- the hungarian-faq -- is primarily
concerned with resources freely available netwide.


Subject: 1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute

 The Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest is available via
electronic mail, at no charge. The Digest covers all of the former
Soviet Union, East-Central and Southeastern Europe and is delivered in
two parts, each roughly 15 kByte in size, Monday through Friday (except
Czech holidays).

 You can subscribe by sending <mailto:>.
In the body of the message, type
 "SUBSCRIBE OMRI-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname" (leave out the quotation
marks and be sure to substitute your own name where shown).

 You can get reposts of just the items related to Hungary by
subscribing to Mozaik. See section 1.5.


Subject: 1.2  News from Central Europe Today

 Central Europe Today On-Line is a free daily news service covering the
important events and business news in the region. To subscribe, send
the word SUBSCRIBE <mailto:>. For more
detailed information, send a blank email message

Again, these exceed Hungary in scope, but you can get excerpts
pertaining to Hungary in Mozaik (see 1.4).


Subject: 1.3  The Hungary Report

 The Hungary Report is a free weekly English-language online update of
news and analysis direct from Budapest each Sunday. The Report consists
of briefs, one feature story and an expert political opinion column.
The briefs cover the most important and interesting developments in
Hungary each week, while the feature stories address variously
politics, business, economics, arts and leisure. The weekly political
column, Parliament Watch, is written by Tibor Vidos, director of the
Budapest office of GJW, a British political lobbying and consulting
firm. To subscribe, send
<mailto:> containing (in the body
of the message, not in the headers) the single word "subscribe" (no
quotes).  Or send the word "info" to the same address for further


Subject: 1.4  Hungary Online

 This discussion list is a "kind of Internet supplement" to the column
of the same title in Budapest Business Journal; to subscribe, send the
word "subscribe" <mailto:> (you'll get help
from its Majordomo server, if needed).


Subject: 1.5  MOZAIK

 This is actually one of the services of HIX, meaning there's a slight
bit of Hungarian mixed in (the posts themselves are mostly in English,
but the server speaks Hunglish ;-)). Mozaik brings you, among other
things, reposts of those news items (originating from OMRI, CET and
other sources) that bear directly on Hungary. You can subscribe by
sending a blank email message to <mailto:> and
unsubscribe by sending one to <mailto:>. See
section 3 about searching the HIX archives.


Subject: 1.6  On USENET

 The Hungarian newsgroup in the worldwide hierarchy is
<news:soc.culture.magyar>.  It's mostly in English, sometimes
bilingual, and occasionally Hungarian only. The group is archived 
by HIX (see its section for 'SCM').

 Since May 1995 Hungary has its own netnews hierachy, with the following
groups created so far (hun.lists.* are email gateways):

 If you can connect to a remote news server (typically by setting the
NNTPSERVER variable under Unix), then you can get hun.* directly from
news.sztaki.hu or news.iif.hu (the former has been more stable
lately). Fetching articles is much faster from a local source - ask
you system administrator if they can get a feed! In the USA the first
provider offering the hierarchy seems to be AltNet,
<mailto:> to find out about that.  There is a gopher
interface to news: <gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/11/News> (the full URL to
go straight to the hun.* groups is:
<gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/1exec%3A-g%20hun%3A/bin/gonnrp>). These groups
are also archived by HIX (see its section for 'HUNGROUPS').

 There are Hungarian local newsgroups available through
<telnet://ludens.elte.hu>, login with username GUEST (no password), and
enter NEWS to start the newsreader (you can use the VMS online help to
learn about it). The guest account is set up for accessing
<news:elte.diaklap> (students' journal at Eotvos U.), but other
newsgroups are available as well. (But please be considerate to the
strained network resources of Hungarian sites - from abroad for
non-local news use other providers.) For ELTE-specific questions
contact <mailto:>. This server is also accessible
via remote NNTP like the two mentioned above, but is often much slower
than those.


Subject: 1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 

  is a discussion group providing rapid communication
among those with interests in Hungarian issues. Subscribe by 
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY Yourfirstname Lastname.  Once you
have subscribed, any messages which you want to send to the group
should be sent to the group address, <mailto:>.
(This pattern of two addresses is standard: you turn your mail off and
on at the "listserv" address, and you send mail to the listname
address.  For example, to  unsubscribe, send the server the message
SIGNOFF HUNGARY.  You can temporarily turn off you mail by sending
listserv the message SET HUNGARY NOMAIL.  SET HUNGARY MAIL turns mail
back on.) By default the listserv sends out messages as they arrive,
maybe several ones on busier days. If you prefer daily digest format,
you can issue the command SET HUNGARY DIGESTS (again by sending it to
the LISTSERV address); alternatively you can subscribe to HUNGARY via
HIX as mentioned in 2.1, and receive the same format as the other lists
by HIX. LISTSERV has many useful features, most notably database search
on the list archives - to learn more about it, send commands like SEND

 Note that the form of addressing LISTSERV lists such as Hungary may
depend a great deal on your local network configuration and mailer
software.  For BITNET mailers you need GWUVM only; the local gatewaying
to BITNET may be BITNET% for VAXMail installations and
 at other places. Ask your local network
administrator first if you're experiencing problems.


Subject: 1.8  , a list for Hungarian-Americans

 <mailto:> is a group providing rapid communication
mainly among those living in the USA with interests in Hungarian
issues (it has been created to serve the community mainly at the
University of Maryland and in its vicinity). Subscribe by
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY . (Notice that this is distinct
from the older LISTSERV list mentioned in 1.7 that has a broader focus
- 'the HUNGARY list' ususally refers to that latter one!)




Subject: 2.1  HIX

 HIX, or Hollosi Information eXchange, is a non-profit formation run
and supported by several individuals and organizations. Its services,
almost exclusively in Hungarian, change frequently, so it is best to
obtain an up-to-date help file by sending a blank email message to
<mailto:> (a recent copy of that also seems to be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/MAIN/HELP.ALL>; - but please
notice that there are superseded copies scattered in other parts in
the archive on the one hand, and many of the other files in this same
directory are outdated on the other hand; most notably, DO NOT TOUCH
that ancient version of hungarian-faq found there!). Here's a list of
what it currently offers in email digest format:

 HIR      -- 'Hirmondo', current newspaper survey edited in Budapest
 NARANCS  -- The Internet edition of the 'Magyar Narancs' weekly
 SZALON   -- moderated political discussion forum
 FORUM    -- unmoderated political discussion forum
 TIPP     -- politics-free questions, tips etc.
 GURU     -- computer-related questions
 RANDI    -- moderated personals; anonymous submissions possible
 VITA     -- moderated non-political discussion forum
 OTTHON   -- issues around the home
 MOKA     -- jokes, humor (Hungarian and other)
 MOZAIK   -- semi-regular bits of news and other info, mostly in
	     English, crossposts from the OMRI list, VoA gopher, CET
	     and other sources
 HUNGARY  -- daily digest of the Hungary LISTSERV list (see 1.7)

 The following two are not available for email subscription from
outside Hungary, but are accessible via the SENDDOC interface (or the
'finger ' service for the latest issues):
 SCM      -- gatewayed email digest of the Usenet newsgroup
 HUNGROUPS - gatewayed email digest of the hun.* regional newsgroups

 Note that KEP (transcripts from the videotext news from Hungarian
Television's Kepujsag) has been suspended indefinitely - despite what
HIX' own HELP says.

 To subscribe (unsubscribe) to a particular email-journal, send email
to  ) where NAME is one of the

 The postings for the HIX discussion lists are sent out daily in
digested form. You can send your own submission to ,
whatever NAME is (provided it's actually a discussion list).

 The volume for some of these lists is becoming rather high, e.g. TIPP
often digests dozens of messages in hundreds of lines daily!  You ought
to try targeting your audience properly in order to find those who'd
help with your questions; also keep in mind that readers often answer
to the list rather than the individual even when personal reply is
requested, so if you ask something it's a good idea to subscribe also
(even though technically it's not required) instead of just addressing
a list as a non-subscriber. A reminder to those who reply to a post:
always remember that list messages get sent to several hundred readers,
so consider personal email if the subject is not of general interest!
If you answer through a list it's courteous to send a personal copy
(Cc: with most mailers) as well - this may reach the addressee
considerably earlier than the post distributed through the list.
 Notice the (undocumented) feature of the HIX mail-server: it only
accepts submissions if its address is found in the 'To:' header field!
It would quietly ignore incoming email Cc-d to it, so do not put the
 in the 'Cc:' (you can do so with other addressees).

 The HIX server can also send out archived files, see the SENDDOC
function in its description. In case you have any problems or questions
on the HIX services, please read through the automatic help response
first. If you need human intervention you can reach
<mailto:> - but keep in mind that list managers have
to do plenty other than answering things already laid out in the Fine

 You can also view the output of HIX interactively. See section 3.


Subject: 2.2  Other discussion groups in Hungarian

 A number of email lists are available from servers located in Hungary,
for directory see <gopher://HUEARN.sztaki.hu>. There are many college
publications available online as well, check out the links from the HU
homepage (see below).



 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like gopher
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.


Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 This document you are reading now is hosted at
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq>;, and its directory
has a few other documents and several links to other sites of

 The Hungarian Home Page is at
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>; with links to the
registered Hungarian www servers, including

 - the Prime Minister's Office:  <http://www.meh.hu>; (overseas users
please notice that the use of the <http://www.hungary.com/meh/>;
mirror is requested to cut down transatlantic traffic!)

 - a weather forecast page (this is updated daily, and includes weather
forecasts, meteorological maps, and METEOSAT satellite images; this
page is in Hungarian)

 - home pages of Hungarian cities (currently Budapest, Debrecen,
Miskolc, Pecs, Szeged), and of educational and other institutions 

 - a comprehensive list of Hungarian telnet services (e.g. library 
databases), gopher and ftp sites (3.2). The content of almost all the 
Hungarian FTP sites is indexed and can be searched.

 HIX has a WWW server in the USA: the URL is <http://hix.mit.edu>;.
Besides back issues of its email journals, and a plethora of other
files in Hungarian and English, it offers an on-line English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/szotar/>; - its
European mirror is at <http://tpri6l.gsi.de/szotar.html>;), and various
home pages and pointers to other sources. Partial mirrors located in
Hungary are <http://www.eunet.hu/eunet/hix/>; (for the Magyar Narancs
archive), and <http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/>; (for some pictures, and
searching the Radir database - see below).

 The Open Media Research Institute has a WWW server, available at
<http://www.omri.cz>;.  Available at this Web site are all back issues
of the Daily Digest, tables of contents for Transition, OMRI's
bi-weekly analytical journal, and information about OMRI's activities
and staff.

 The World Wide Web server of Central Europe Today is at the URL

 Find back issues of the Hungary Report on the World Wide Web at 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-report/>;. The Hungary-Online archive is
available from <http://www.yak.net/hungary-online/>; as well.

  A new directory server <http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; 
catalogize hierarchically the growing number of Hungarian Internet 
info sources.  There is a similar collection at

 There is a "Foreign Languages for Travellers" collection of essential
Hungarian expressions with English, German and French explanation,
complete with sound at

 The American Association of Young Hungarians (AAYH) has its homepage
at <http://www.jvnc.net/~kerekes/>;.

 There are some nice pictures from Hungary at 


Subject: 3.2  Gopher and other interactive services

 HIX has a server in the USA: <gopher://hix.mit.edu>. Its services
form just a subset of what it offers as a WWW site. RaDir is sometimes
useful for finding email-addresses, old or new friends on the Net. See
also Section 4.4.

 HIX has a gopher in Hungary as well:
<gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX>, and another mirror at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/hix> (notice that this latter uses a
non-standard Gopher port number). Check also <gopher://gopher.elte.hu>
and <gopher://gopher.sztaki.hu>. Note that gopher is essentially
text-based (thus less satisfying than the Web) but often faster
(therefore less frustrating).

 CET's gopher is called <gopher://gopher.eunet.cz>.

 HIX documents from the archives of hix.mit.edu are available via the
(Unix) 'finger' protocol. Try 'finger ' to see how it
works.  This may be the easiest and fastest access from some sites.

 There is an electronic library at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/elibhu/> (notice the non-standard port)
that has much Hungarian text material, including some classical



 Overview: historically, ELLA was the first home-grown X.25
email-system in Hungary. It survives till this very day. EARN was next,
with its BITNET-like infrastructure (4.1). Full Internet connectivity
is provided by HUNGARNET (see 4.2), which really comprises all
academic, research and public non-profit sites.

 Here's a partial list of its domain names:

bme.hu          Technical University of Budapest
sztaki.hu       Computer and Automation Research Institute, Budapest 
elte.hu         Roland Eotvos University of Sciences, Budapest
bke.hu          Budapest University of Economic Sciences
sote.hu         Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
abc.hu          Agricultural Biotechnology Center, Godollo 
gau.hu          Godollo Agricultural University, Godollo
klte.hu         Kossuth Lajos University of Sciences, Debrecen
jpte.hu         Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
u-szeged.hu     Members of the Szeged University Association
bgytf.hu        Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College
uni-miskolc.hu  University of Miskolc
kfki.hu         Central research Inst. of Physics, Budapest 
vein.hu         University of Veszprem, Veszprem
bdtf.hu         Berzsenyi College, Szombathely
szif.hu         Szechenyi Istvan College, Gyor
blki.hu         Balaton Limnological Res. Inst. of Hung. Acad. Sci.

A schematic map of its topology ('HBONE'):

EBONE    EMPB                          EMPB   EBONE

  ^       ^                             ^       ^
  |       |                             |       |
  |       |   Microwave center ======= IIF Center ------- Miskolci Egyetem
  |       |      Budapest            /   Budapest            Miskolc
  |       |    //  ||    \\         /   //   |
  |       |   //   ||     MTA-KFKI /   //    L--------------- BGYTF
  |       |  //   MBK     Budapest    //     |             Nyiregyhaza
  |       | //   Godollo             //      |
  |      BME              MTA-SzTAKI//       L--------------- KLTE
  |    Budapest ########## Budapest          |              Debrecen
  |      ***                                 |
  |      ***                                 L--------------- GAMF
  L------BKE                                 |              Kecskemet
       Budapest                              |
          #    \                             L---------- Veszpremi Egyetem
          #     \                            |              Veszprem
         ELTE    \                           |
       Budapest   JATE                       L--------------- JPTE
                 Szeged                                       Pecs


 ***  100 Mbps FDDI
  #    10 Mbps optical cable (Ethernet)
  =     2 Mbps microwave
  |    64 kbps leased line (that's 0.064 Mbps)

Source: HUNGARNET/NIIF (URL <http://www.iif.hu/hungarnet.html>;)

 FidoNet is described in section 4.3, and commercial
networks/email/Internet Providers demand a separate document
('commercial.FAQ'), also see <http://www.sztaki.hu/providers/>;.


Subject: 4.1  BITNET/HUEARN

 What follows is a listing of all EARN nodes in Hungary, with contact
info.  This information is also available on the following gopher:

HUBIIF11 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                      
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : hubiif11.sztaki.hu                   
      User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBIIF61 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                    
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : mars.iif.hu                          
      User Info: Istvan ;+36 1 1665644
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBME11  Technical University of Budapest
     Technical University;of Budapest;Muegyetem rkp 9. R. ep;H-1111
     Budapest, Hungary           
     Internet address : atlantis.bme.hu                      
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 4632422               
     Fax : +36 1 1665711             

HUBME51  Technical University of Budapest                                  
     Technical University;Muegytem Rakpart 9;H-1111 Budapest               
     Internet address : bmeik.eik.bme.hu                     
     User Info: Laszlo ;+36 1 1812172                 
     Phone : +36 1 1812172            ; Fax : +36 1 1166711             

HUBPSZ12 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                  
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hubpsz12.sztaki.hu                   ;
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBPSZ61 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             

HUBPSZ62 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of
     Sciences;Lagymanyosi ut 11;1111 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUEARN   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary               
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : huearn.sztaki.hu                     ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 2698286                   
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUECO    University of Economic Sciences Budapest, Hungary                 
     University of Economic Sci;Computer Center;Kinizsi u 1-7;1092 Budapest
     Internet address : ursus.bke.hu                         ;
     User Info: Robert ;+36 1 1175224                    
     Phone : +36 1 1181317            ; Fax : +36 1 1175224             

HUELLA   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary           
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Node admin: Gizella ;+36 1 1497986                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGBOX   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary            
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hugbox.sztaki.hu                    ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 1497532                
     Phone : +36 1 1497532            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGIRK51 University of Agriculture Sciences
     University of Agriculture;Pater Karoly ut 1;H-2103 Godollo
     Internet address : vax.gau.hu                           ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 28 30200 -1015              
     Phone : +36 28 30200 -1015       ; Fax : +36 28 20804              

HUKLTEDR Kossuth Lajos University Debrecen, Hungary                       
     Internet address : dragon.klte.hu                       ;
     User Info: Robert                           

HUKLTE51 Kossuth Lajos University, Debrecen                                 
     Kossuth Lajos University;Egyetem Ter 1; PF. 58;H-4010 Debrecen        
     Internet address : huni7.cic.klte.hu                    ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 52 18800                      
     Phone : +36 52 18800             ; Fax : +36 52 16783              

HUSOTE51 University of Medical Science Budapest, Hungary                   
     University of Medical Science;SOTE;Ulloi u. 26.;1085 Budapest         
     Internet address : janus.sote.hu                        ;
     User Info: Gabor ;+36 1 1141705                 
     Phone : +36 1 1141705            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866

HUSZEG11 Jozsef Attila University, Szeged, Hungary                         
     Jozsef Attila University;Computer Centre;Arpad ter 2.;H-6720
     User Info: Ferenc ;+36 62 321022
     Miklos ;+36  
     Phone : +36 62 321022            ; Fax : +36 62 322227             



 This information is also available on

Organisational Structure: 
 HUNGARNET is an association and also the computer network of Hungarian
institutes of higher education, research and development, libraries and
other public collections. HUNGARNET funding comes from the R&D
Information Infrastructure Program (IIF) sponsored by the Hungarian
Academy of Science, the National Committee of Technological
Development, the Ministry for Culture and Education and the National
Science Foundation. About 500 organizations have access to HUNGARNET
services. HUNGARNET as an association represents Hungary in
international networking organizations (e.g. TERENA).

Generic Services:
 HUNGARNET provides access to the Internet and several other national
network services over leased lines and the public packet switched data
network. Lot of different services (e.g. gopher, ftp, WWW, data bases)
provided by member organizations are available on the net. Centrally
supported and coordinated services are:
 - email (internet SMPT, EARN BSMTP, OSI X.400, UUCP, XXX ELLA) 
 - email gateways between the different email systems above 
 - distribution services (LISTSERV, news) 
 - information services (ftp, gopher, WWW servers, data bases) 
 - directory services (X.500) 
 - individual accounts and login

External Connectivity:  
 HUNGARNET is subscriber to EBONE and EMPB/EuropaNET as well. There are
two 64 kbps leased lines to EBONE (Vienna EBS). These two lines should
be upgraded to a single 256 kbps line in the near future.  HUNGARNET
uses two 64 kbps interfaces on the EMPB/EuropaNET node in Budapest as
well. These two interfaces should also be upgraded to a single 256 kbps
interface very soon.

Internal Connectivity: 
 Internal connectivity of HUNGARNET is based partly on the public X.25
service of the Hungarian PTT and partly on the community's private IP
backbone network (HBONE). The kernel of the HBONE infrastructure is in
Budapest, where several important organizations are connected in
different ways (64-256 kbps leased lines, 1-2 Mbps microwave links, 10
Mbps optical Ethernet, 100 Mbps FDDI). Several cities (regional
centers) in the country are also connected to the network via 64 kbps
leased lines (Miskolc, Nyiregyhaza, Debrecen, Kecskemet, Szeged, Pecs,
Veszprem) and 2 Mbps microwave (Godollo). Now there are about 50
organizations directly connected to the backbone and about 50 others
using IP over X.25. The number of the registered, connected hosts is
about ten thousand. There is an ongoing development, new regional
centers (Kaposvar, Keszthely, Szombathely, Sopron, Gyor) and several
organizations in Budapest will be connected subsequently.  Many users
do not have IP connectivity yet but are connected to the public X.25
network. There are several services (e.g. individual login, mail,
gopher, news) that are open for traditional XXX/X.25 access.

Contact Persons:
Miklos NAGY <mailto:> - head of the HUNGARNET/IIF 
					coordination office
Laszlo CSABA <mailto:> - HUNGARNET/IIF technical director
Balazs MARTOS <mailto:> - HBONE project manager
Nandor HORVATH <mailto:> - Local Internet Registry, 
				.hu top level domain contact
IP address and domain administration: <mailto:> 
Network management: <mailto:>


Subject: 4.3  FidoNet

 FidoNet connects through sztaki.hu, as indicated above.

 There are three FidoNet nodes: Budapest NET (2:371/0); West Hungary
Net (2:372/0); and Tisza NET (2:370/0). If you want to write on the
FidoNet, chances are you already know how. *PLEASE* find out what you
are about to do instead of experimenting with the Hungarian net - don't
add to the problems for the folks in Hungary having to deal with the
underdeveloped phone system and outrageous international tolls ;-<. For
further information I post a Fido-sheet separately from this FAQ, where
there are also telephone numbers and further addresses, but again: try
to verify that you are mailing to a valid address (the BBS situation
may have changed since the copy you are reading got updated - look for
current FIDO listing on the net, or better yet contact the person you
want to reach by other means first)!. If you can send Internet email
and have the FidoNet address, you can write to it by transforming it to
appropriate .FIDONET.ORG format.

 Fidonet mail works with Hungarian BBS's but you have to know whom to
reach. I will attempt to maintain a separate Fido posting to Usenet;
please try to make sure you email to a valid address and in particular
avoid using outdated sources on Hungarian BBS's (otherwise your
misdirected trial will burden the Hungarian network coordinator!).


Subject: 4.4  Finding out somebody's email-address in Hungary

 The bigger academic domains have on-line directories (CSO phonebooks):

Technical University, Budapest

Budapest University of Economic Sciences*
(*under construction)

Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest

Central Research Inst. of Physics, Budapest

Members of the Szeged University Association

Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs

University of Veszprem

 ELLA also has an on-line directory: <telnet://hugbox.sztaki.hu:203>
(i.e. address a special port). Note that the opening screen uses
special characters for the accented letters but the data records have
combinations of vowel plus ',: or " instead (i.e. searching for
hollo'si would retrieve a record, but hollosi won't)!

 If the person has registered him/herself with the RaDir database of
HIX, you might try the following (note, however, that most parts of
RaDir are badly out of date):

 - by <gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/radir> (a link to the same is
offered by <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/>; on the World Wide Web); from
inside Hungary use <gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX/radir>, or
<http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/radir.html>; (this last one is a true HTML
search form)). Under RaDir, you'll find the entire database
cross-indexed by search keys.

 - by 'finger +whois:"SEARCHWORD"@hix.mit.edu' you can look up records
containing "SEARCHWORD" string in the database

 - by email: send a blank message <mailto:>. You'll
receive, in several chunks, the entire database of users, their
electronic and snail-mail addresses, etc. You'll need a decent editor
to search what you're looking for.

 If you have some idea what institution to check at, you may find an
online directory service -- many are available, and could be reached
through the Hungarian gophers (or WWW sites) mentioned in section 3.
Try contacting the (electronic) postmaster, usually
, or using 'finger' to inquire about users.

 As a last resort, send in your query to a discussion group. Readers of
<news:soc.culture.magyar>, <mailto:> discussion
list (section 1.7), or some HIX-list (<mailto:> in
particular, see 2.1) may be able to help. Be aware, though, that most
participants are located abroad - especially in the case of the Usenet


Subject: 5.  ODDS AND ENDS


Subject: 5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary

 The electricity is 220 V, 50 Hz. The frequency, in fact, fluctuates a
lot, but it doesn't cause any problem when operating computer devices.
(Don't trust too much your plug-in clock radios though.) If you are
from any country running on 110 V or around, due to complications in
voltage conversion, a battery driven laptop or notebook is your best
bet. However, if you decide to take your desktop system, printer, etc.,
you  have a good chance that the device can also be operated on 220 V.
Check it first before you go through unnecessary trouble. If not, you
have to apply 220 V to 110 V AC converters (you might need more than
one; check the power ratings of your devices & converters). WARNING!
Your converters should be designed for *electronic/motorized devices*.
Refuse any converter for *heating appliances* even if its power rating
is much higher! These converters are not real transformers, and can
cause major damages to your electronic devices.

 Also make sure you are able to connect to the Hungarian grounded power
outlet, because that's what's recommended for your appliances.
Therefore you should try to find grounded plug adapters and/or voltage
converters.  Connecting to ungrounded outlets causes possibly no harm,
but for your own & your devices' safety grounded connections should be


Subject: 5.2  Conventions & standards for coding Hungarian accents


Subject: 5.2.0 Introduction & section overview  

 During the evolution of teletypes and computers, two character tables
survived, acquiring major importance in later computer systems. One is
EBCDIC, primarily used in ancient IBM mainframes. The other one, ASCII,
can be considered today's ubiquitous standard in computing worldwide.
The rest of this section, therefore, pays attention to ASCII code, very
unfairly ignoring EBCDIC, since none of the accent conversion programs
support neither this code table nor the CMS environment.

 Since the language of computing has been English from the beginning,
the original ASCII table was limited to the characters used in English:
letters of the Latin alphabet, a few punctuation marks and some other
special symbols. Since the number of all these characters, plus the
unprintable "control" characters (located in the first 32 positions of
the ASCII table, responsible for different control functions) doesn't
exceed 128, the real 'brilliant' idea of representing the ASCII table
in 7 bits spread like wild fire all over the computer world. No wonder,
that most of the Internet mailers and Usenet hubs are also set up to
forward documents in 7-bit ASCII only.  (Read the rest of the section
carefully to learn how to overcome these problems.) As computing and
word processing started to rise up in the rest of the world, there was
an increasing demand to represent these national characters as well. (A
good example is Hungarian. The extra consonants [nonexistent in
English] are formed by merely juxtaposing 2 (or 3 in case of dzs)
regular Latin characters; so there is no problem here.  However, the
special vowels of the language are denoted by applying different
accents on the Latin 'base-vowel', introducing new characters, the so
called accented vowels.) It's an obvious idea to place these national
characters and other fancy symbols utilizing codes 128 to 255, still
remaining within the byte limit. Different character sets have been
created by defining purpose- or language-specific characters for the
upper half of the table, while keeping the 7-bit ASCII codes unchanged.
(Note:  Some character sets also re-use codes between 0 and 31, the
domain of ASCII control characters, keeping some, or none of them.
Using these codes, however, is pretty difficult, device- and
implementation-dependent, etc.  Therefore it wouldn't be wise to put
accented characters here, but fortunately none of the sets listed below
did it actually.) Hopefully Unicode will ultimately stop this
confusion, but until then there's a long long way to go.

At this point let's clarify the terminology:

.. ASCII (also 7-bit or plain ASCII) data:
Usually text (but not necessarily, see, containing only 7-bit
ASCII characters, including the control ones.
.. 8-bit (extended) ASCII data:
Text containing the uniform 7-bit ASCII characters, plus special
characters (with code greater than 127) according to one of the 8-bit
character sets.
.. Binary data:
Non-text data (executables, pictures, etc.) containing any 8-bit value.

 The different kludges accepted by Internet users to denote accented
vowels in 7-bit ASCII are described in 5.2.1. The most important
extended ASCII character sets are introduced in 5.2.2. 5.2.3 shows the
accented character representations used by high-level formatting
languages. The correct ways of transferring files among word processor
[on the Net] are detailed in 5.2.4. If the data to be transferred is
not 7-bit ASCII, 5.2.5 tells you what to do. Last, but not least, 5.2.6
introduces the programs in the HIX archives (and mentions some others)
that address the problem of conversion between the various types of
accent representation.


Subject: 5.2.1 House rules for plain (7-bit) ASCII

 If you are limited to the use of 7-bit ASCII, you have essentially the
following choices to deal with the accented characters: No accent marks at all

 Simple and sure-fire. In fact, the most common 'solution'. The '~" coding (also called "marking notation" or "Babai-code")
        [Sometimes nicknamed as _repu~lo"_.]

 Here's a sample:

         O~t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu~nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu~ko~rfu'ro'ge'p
         O~t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru~lt i'ro't nyu'z

or, in the alternative ':" _repu:lo"_ format:

         O:t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu:nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu:ko:rfu'ro'ge'p
         O:t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru:lt i'ro't nyu'z

 Quite readable, though a bit tricky to disambiguate mechanically:
remember, the " or : or ' may also serve as punctuation marks. (This
problem can be handled using Maxent's escaping capabilities, see

Warning! Don't get confused: in TeX (see " denotes umlaut! The 123 coding (also "numerical notation" or "Pro1sze1ky-code")

 Here's the same text:

         O2t hu3to3ha1zbo1l ke1rtu2nk szi1nhu1st
         a1rvi1ztu3ro3 tu2ko2rfu1ro1ge1p
         O2t sze1p szu3zla1ny o3ru2lt i1ro1t nyu1z

 The only one that's both short and unambiguous, though it takes some
getting used to. 1 stands for the stroke, 2 for the short umlaut, 3 for
the 'Hungarian' or long umlaut (double acute). Very easily converted to
other formats. (Also can be ambiguous, though with much smaller
probability. E.g. U2, CO2, , etc.) Telegraphic style. For example,

         Oet huetoehaazbool keertuenk sziinhuust
         aarviiztueroe tuekoerfuuroogeep
         Oet szeep szuezlaany oeruelt iiroot nyuuz

 Avoid it like the plague because

1. It's ambiguous. (Think of Goethe, Oetker, Eoersi, Csooori, poeen.) 
2. Coding of o" & u" (o3 & u3) is not consistent:
   u3 = ue (fallback to u2), uue, uee, ueue
3. Absolutely not a pleasure to read.


Subject: 5.2.2 Fancy 8-bit character sets (extended ASCII)

 The following rollcall lists the most important character sets
supported by the majority of hardware and software, including the
accent conversion programs. The available Hungarian accented characters
are detailed for each set.


 Henceforth when referring to an accented character, the numerical
(Pro1sze1ki) notation will be used to maintain clarity. PC-codepages

(*) PC-437: Hardware

 The basic hardware character set of PC-compatible systems. Since it
was supposed to contain many symbols (line drawing characters, some
Greek letters, etc.), and be general, it's pretty poor in terms of
accented characters. Missing Hungarian vowels: o3, u3 [substitute them
with o^ & u^], A1 [substitute it with A-circle], I1, O1, O3, U1, U3.

(*) CWI recommendation for Hungarian accents:

A standard initiative to replace the many house rules of character code
assignment for accents unavailable in PC-437. Codes are assigned as

o3->147 [o^], u3->150 [u^], A1->143, I1->141 [i`] or 140 [I^],
O1->149 [o`], O3->167, U1->151 [u`], U3->153 [y~]

(*) PC-850: Multilingual

Contains all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.
Note: ? means o, u, O or U.

(*) PC-852: Latin 2

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

(*) PC-860: Portuguese
(*) PC-863: Canadian-French
(*) PC-865: Nordic

These sets miss various Hungarian accents, esp. in upper case. Using
them for a Hungarian text makes absolutely no sense. ISO character sets

 These character sets are specified by ISO standards. As far as ALL
(not only Hungarian) accented vowels concerned, ISO 8859/1, 2 & 9 is
equivalent to Windows Latin 1, 2 & 5 respectively.

(*) ISO 8859/1:
(*) ISO 8859/3:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

(*) ISO 8859/2:

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

 Fonts for iso-8859-2 (and some other) character sets can be found at
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/font/> for various operation systems, and at
<ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/> (mirrored at
<ftp://ftp.vma.bme.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/> and
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/>) mostly for Unix. There is
material for Hungarianizing the Linux (and possibly other Unix variant)
operation system at <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/linux/>. Others

The following character sets are supported by various laser printers. 
Roman-8 bears special importance as being the default character set of
many printers.

(*) Ventura International & Roman-8:
(*) MC Text:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.


Subject: 5.2.3 Text formatting languages

 The text formatting languages listed below, beyond their powerful text
formatting capabilities, also include the specification of [almost] all
the accented characters. These languages give an alternative way of
dealing with accents in 7-bit ASCII, especially if the software that
can display, print or convert these representations is available.
[Unlike notations in 5.2.1, the "raw" files of these languages are not
intended to be read by ordinary users.] [La]TeX. 

 Invented by D. E. Knuth, TeX (pronounce as [tech]; 'X' denotes the
Greek letter 'chi'), and the macro collection based on it, LaTeX, are
today's most popular text formatting languages for document creation
and DTP.

To continue with the same example,

 \"{O}t h\H{u}t\H{o}h\'{a}zb\'{o}l k\'{e}rt\"{u}nk sz\'{\i}nh\'{u}st

 \'{a}rv\'{\i}zt\H{u}r\H{o} t\"{u}k\"{o}rf\'{u}r\'{o}g\'{e}p

 \"{O}t sz\'{e}p sz\H{u}zl\'{a}ny \H{o}r\"{u}lt \'{i}r\'{o}t ny\'{u}z

 This is meant to be printed with TeX or previewed as a dvi file.
 Wholly unambiguous, can be automatically converted to/from several
other formats (see 5.2.6). Also check the babel system for LaTeX with
the Hungarian specific option, available from FTP sites kth.se or
goya.dit.upm.es. HTML (HyperText Markup Language)

 Unfortunately, the HTML-2 standard still does not contain notation for
Hungarumlaut (long umlaut, double acute). We use tilde or circumflex
instead. The preferred notation is o with tilde õ and u with
circumflex û. In the example above,

   Öt hûtõházból kértünk


   Öt szép szûzlány õrült
   írót nyúz RTF (Rich Text Format)

 This standard is widespread among Microsoft word processors. For
non-ASCII characters it uses the following coding:


where XX is the code of the given ISO 8859/2 (or PC-852 for Word for
DOS) character in hexadecimal. Adobe PostScript

 It is a universal standard for describing any kind of graphics,
including fonts, but it is aimed at producing the final (typically
printed) copy of documents and not at word-processing per se. For a
starter document see <http://www.adobe.com/PS/PS-QA.html>; or
<ftp://wilma.cs.brown.edu/pub/comp.lang.postscript/FAQ.txt> or
If one has the right accented fonts sets then, in theory, the output is
transferable between different machines - but often we run into hurdles
in practice.


Subject: 5.2.4 Microcomputer products: The word processors 

 Different word processors on different microcomputers use several
proprietary internal control sequences to handle accented characters,
as much as other symbols, and other text formatting commands. If you
want to transfer a document like this, you have to convert this [very
probably] binary file (8-bit ASCII with all kinds of binary crap) to
text (7-bit ASCII), see, unless your mailer can handle binary
directly, see Make sure, however, that the recipient of your
document also possesses the same or equivalent word processor, or a
word processor supporting the format you used.

 It might happen that you want to use your document in another word
processing system, or a plain text editor. Today's word processors
offer conversion to a few formats, and also pure text with different
character sets (5.2.2). The resulting file, if necessary, can be
converted further to 7-bit ASCII as shown in 5.2.6. (The output is
already 7-bit ASCII in Microsoft's RTF, see


Subject: 5.2.5 Switching binary to ASCII and vice versa Uuencode & uudecode

 The easiest and most popular way of conversion between binary and
ASCII is the use of the twin sisters uuencode and uudecode. These
programs were created originally for Unix ('uu' stands for Unix to
Unix), but today they are implemented under most platforms.

 Uuencode makes an ASCII file out of a binary one, forming 61 character
long lines to avoid problems excessively long lines can cause in the
different mailer agents. This conversion increases the size of the file
by 40%.  Warning! Understand the really goofy usage of uuencode. The
parameters specify the local & remote BINARY filenames respectively.
The encoded ASCII result is sent to the standard output, it has to be
redirected into a file explicitly. (E.g. uuencode myface.gif myface.gif
> myface.uue )

 Uudecode converts the encoded ASCII file back to binary. It is smart:
using the "begin" and "end" tags placed in the encoded file, uudecode
is able to retrieve the encoded information automatically discarding
everything before and after the tags (headers, signatures, other junk),
even if it's inserted in the middle of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Its
usage is also simple: only the input filename has to be specified; the
original filename is restored from the "begin" tag. (E.g. uudecode
yourface.mal ) MIME support

 Many modern mailers support the MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extensions) standard being able to transfer different file formats
beyond plain text. In this case the ASCII/binary conversion is the
mailer's internal affair. Some mailers make explicit calls to uuencode
and uudecode, some others (e.g. PINE) have different built in
conversion algorithms, trying to choose the most appropriate one for
the given binary file. (One type of MIME encoding substitutes an
unprintable character by its code in hexadecimal, preceded by an =
sign. That's why you often see them splattered around.) In either case,
however, the user is not responsible for the conversion, the mailer
takes care of it automatically. Binhex

 BinHex files are 7-bit ASCII text files, typically used for encoding
Macintosh binaries. Conversion is done by various applications, see eg.


Subject: 5.2.6 Translating between various accent formats

 From the HIX archives (see section 3) the following programs are
available.  The regular location is 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/info/programs/>;, though
you should also check <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/>; 
for updates. At the time of this writing the SENDDOC archive is 
extremely ill-organized and outdated in many parts, including, 
unfortunately, the 'new' directory.

 Warning! From abroad always access the HIX archives via 
<mailto:>, or 'finger '
(the latter only works for text, and you may have to redirect it to a
pager or file). The mirror at <gopher://hix.elte.hu> is updated only at
certain periods of time, also there is a limited bandwidth on the lines
connecting Hungary to the world (see section 4). ekezettelenites

 Gabor Toth's UNIX shell script for deleting unwanted accents from mail
files. etex

 Gabor Toth's shareware C source code for converting the marking or
numerical accent notation to TeX-format. It also claims to be capable
of hyphenation. Supports the UNIX platform. hion

 Peter Verhas's C source code. It's an improved version of etex, as it
reduces the probability of incorrect hyphenation with some built-in
exception library. Hion is able to do the conversion between the
numerical (or, redefining each accent mark, also the marking) accent
notation & TeX-format, and remove accents if the input is an accent
notation. Read his documentation. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS,
UNIX. Available from <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/TeX/hion.tar.gz>
or <ftp://ftp.digital.bme.hu/hion/>. drtc.c

 Peter Verhas's freeware C source code for conversion between RTF (Rich
Text Format), character sets ISO 8859/2 (Latin 2), PC-852 (Latin 2)
and CWI. The program attempts to find out the inbound format
automatically. The outbound format can't be RTF. Supported platforms:
VMS, MS-DOS, & possibly UNIX. hun.c

 Gabor Ligeti's freeware C source code for accent removal and
conversion between the marking & numerical accent notation, TeX-format
and PC-852 (Latin 2) codepage. Warning! Conversion capabilities are not
orthogonal, type hun /? for the supported conversions. No platform
limitations are indicated. MAXENT.UUE_V6.0a

 Peter Csaszar's freeware C source code compressed with pkzip & encoded
with uuencode (see Warning! As of 6/12/95, the HIX gopher's
/HIX/SENDDOC/info/programs directory still contains 'maxent.c', the
very old version V1.4 of Maxent. Don't touch this file, go for version
V6.0a, currently in <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/MAXENT.Z>;.

 Maxent provides 100% orthogonality in conversion between any of the
accent notations listed in 5.2.1 but telegraphic style, and any of the
character sets listed in 5.2.2, allowing multiple notations in the
input file. The domain of conversion includes 6 vowels and 6 accent
types, applying therefore a house rule extension of the marking and
numerical accent notations. (Hoping that this extension becomes widely
accepted, no longer remaining a house rule.) Language accent profiles
other than the default Hungarian can be selected. Further accent
services include accent notation escaping & de-escaping (see,
and flexible substitution of the o3 etc. characters.

 Beyond some little services, the rest of the major features provide
comprehensive retabulation strategies, full newline conversion
capabilities and script file execution (ideal for maintaining mail
folders after download).

 The help given by the program can be saved into a file by typing
maxent -h0 > maxent.hlp . Print this file for fancy bedtime reading.

 Maxent supports only the MS-DOS environment, and should be compiled by
a Borland C compiler. This is the sacrifice for the extensive services
provided. ekezet.dot

 Via anonymous <ftp://bme-tel.ttt.bme.hu/pub/income/ekezetes/>, you can
find Kornel Umann's WinWord template capable of many kinds of
conversion.  Also find other goodies in the directory above. hixiso

 Olivier Clary's Unix scripts for converting accented text appearing
on HIX are at <ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/hixiso.tar.gz>.


Subject:  5.3 Information sources pertaining to the rest of Central Europe

 This section is by no means to be comprehensive. For a big but dated
(1992) list see

 Both OMRI and CET cover the general region in their news. See Section
1.1 and 1.2, respectively.

 To complement the HUNGARY list (see Section 1.7), at the same listserv
at Buffalo there exist the Middle European discussion list MIDEUR-L as
well as POLAND-L and SLOVAK-L. Send the usual command to
<mailto:> (or simply  on

      SUBSCRIBE listname-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname.

 On Usenet there is soc.culture.romanian, soc.culture.czecho-slovak,
soc.culture.polish, and the gatewayed bit.listserv.mideur-l and
bit.listserv.slovak-l; bit.listserv.hungary has been established, but
many sites do not have it. The surest way to receive everything is via
email. If you prefer using Usenet newsreaders you find HIX's HUNGARY
digests posted to soc.culture.magyar (which group does not seem to
suffer the poor propagation affecting some of the bit.listserv
groups).  Please notice that while the listserv groups are
bi-directionally gatewayed, i.e. posts to them get propagated back to
the original mailing list, the posts coming from HIX to
soc.culture.magyar are mere copies of the mailing list messages - do
not reply to the newgroups since your answer won't reach the email
readers (who constitute a likely large majority).

 Speaking of limitations of distribution be aware that some commercial
Internet connection providers (most blatantly American Online)
established their own groups with topics overlapping existing Usenet
hierarchy. The utility of these local groups is seriously limited since
they are, unlike the open real Usenet newsgroups such as those
mentioned above, unavailable to anyone but their own subscribers (i.e.
a small domestic fraction of all the Internet/Usenet users worldwide).
Please do not post to non-local groups saying how nice would be to use
these specialized forums - we can not. Use the newsgroup
soc.culture.magyar or the mailing lists!

 The Central European Regional Research Organization (CERRO) can be
joined at <mailto:> with the command
SUBSCRIBE CERRO-L Firstname Lastname.  This is a scholarly group that
deposits papers and the like in an electronic archive in Vienna.  The
archive is accessible with anonymous <ftp://wu-wien.ac.at>, or with

 The Eastern Europe Business Network ) is
primarily remarkable for its size (1700+ subscribers). Messages tend to
be brief bursts of announcements, questions and, unsurprisingly, calls
for or queries about business. The list is administered by Yale's Civic
Education Project (Chris Owen, <mailto:>). To
subscribe, send a message to the address
<mailto:> that has

             subscribe e-europe YourFirstName YourLastName
in its body.

 The repository for Voice of America material, accessible with
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov>, also contains some information and news
items relevant to the region.

 Check the NATO archive for goodies: <gopher://gopher.nato.int>.

 The Slovakia Document Store will answer all your questions about
Slovakia:  on the World Wide Web, <http://www.eunet.sk>;, via
<gopher://gopher.eunet.sk>, via <ftp://ftp.eunet.sk/slovakia/>, via
gophermail: send a message with Subject: HELP



(the order is alphabetical by last name)

Beke Tibor     <mailto:>           general layout, 2.1, 5.3
Bruner, Rick   <mailto:>     1.3
Csaszar Peter  <mailto:>   5.1, 5.2
Fabian Peter   <mailto:> 3.1, 4.1, 4.4
Fekete Zoli    <mailto:>           much of the rest
Hewes, Cameron <mailto:>      1.2
Hollo Kriszta  <mailto:>         4.2
Umann Kornel   <mailto:>        5.2
Varnum, Ken    <mailto:>       1.1

 If you have a question or remark regarding some specific section, you
may want to contact its author. The FAQ as such continues to be
maintained by Zoli Fekete <mailto:>. The keeper hereby
expresses the many thanks we all owe to every contributor - and above
all to Tibor Beke who brought about this cooperative effort, and took
upon consolidating the whole (with Peter Csaszar who took over the
next-to-last editing). Still, any errors are the responsibility of
Zoli - who'd like to hear all corrections, recommendations or just
comments readers may have!
 Acknowledgement is also due here to Jozsef Hollosi and Arpad Palotas,
for providing webspace to this FAQ on the HIX server and helping to
improve its homepage, respectively.


Subject: 7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

 One of these days ;-) there will be a guide here about how to handle
all the strange things that you may see embedded in this text; but in
the meantime, if you don't know yet what URLs are and are not reading a
copy thru a WWW browser that may show a selectable link: just do the
sensible thing and use email to access 'mailto:' addresses, ftp for
'ftp:' and telnet for 'telnet:'...

 Updated versions of this document will be in
or <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq>. Notice
that the canonical Usenet archive <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu> is often
overloaded - if you can't get connected try one of the mirror sites (of
which a list by countries can be found in
that is also available thru the RTFM mail-server shown below) - eg.
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq> in
the USA! You can also retrieve it via <mailto:>
with the command "send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq" in the body
of the message, or via 'finger '.
 A brief extract of hungarian-faq, concentrating on the email services,
is also available now
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer>; or 
'finger '.
 A separate document on network service providers in Hungary
prepared independently by John Horvath <mailto:> is
available via email from its author or via

 This hungarian-faq is expected to be updated at least every couple of
months, due to the rapid changes occuring on the net. If you are
reading a copy whose 'Last-modified:' date shown on top is older than
that then many parts may be out of date - in this case get the recent
one from the sources listed above, and/or try to convince the
administrator of the site keeping the old copy to freshen it. Please
notice that retrieving from the Usenet archives is likely a lot faster
than asking me personally (and most everything I can answer is already
in here)! If you do write me <mailto:>, then give a
descriptive 'Subject:' line - keep in mind that much of my incoming
email deemed unworthy by me is deleted unread in order to keep up with
the high volume I am receiving (most of it from various mailing
lists).  The best way to ensure catching my attention - and to allow
automatized pre-processing - is to start it with 'ZFIX:' (the name my
mail-handler answers to is Zophisticated Free Information eXchange, in
case you were wondering :-)).

 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
"For my assured failures and derelictions, I ask pardon beforehand of my
betters and my equals in my calling." 		- 	Rudyard Kipling
+ - Vlasi (was: Re: Re:Nestor & Vlachs I) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > Liviu Iordache,
In article >, T. Kocsis >
>>No, definitely not. The 'olasz' -Italien is the older
>>word, much older than the 'olah' in Hungarian. Both
>>words' roots in the 'valch'  but the 'olasz' came into
>>the language through Slavic language form 'vlasi', which
>>means the Hungarians did not live together with
>>romance volks.

>Let's see if I can follow: "olasz" for the Franks is derived
>from the Slavic "vlasi". But the Slavs used "vlasi" for the

No. 'Vlasi' used in early Slavic sources for the Italians. See
modern West-Slavic languages:
Czech: Vlachy
Polish: Wlochy

>Please quote one Hungarian document that used
>"the vlasi" for the Franks.

Well, Hungarian documents somehow did not use Old-Slavic,
I dunno why....:) :) :)  However you already got one reference
from Jeliko to olasz->Italian, now I give you another one:

Szepesolaszi  lat: Villa Latina (Spisske Vlachy, Slovakia)

Here some other villages , originaly established by Italian
or French peasants, hence the name, 'olasz':

E'rolaszi (Olosig, Romania)
Olasz ( Baranya county, Hungary)
Olaszfa (Vas county,  Hungary)
Olaszfalu / Lapincsolaszi (Wallendorf, Austria)
Olaszliszka (Zemplen county, Hungary)
Olasztelek (Talisoara, Romania)

Let see again the word 'Vlach'. The different Slavic langua-
ges have no problem to begin a word with 'vl'  (like in
Vladislav) however it is not the case in Hungarian where
this combination is alien to the language. That's why it was
changed to 'o' both in 'oláh^ and 'olasz'. 
It is no problem in Hungarian to end a word with 'h' (doh, juh,
rüh, etc)so the language can keep the ending sound of 'Vlach',
however that's not true for Slavic languages. Some of them
just don't have soft 'h' at all, like russian, only the hard one
like in 'xopowo'.  Consequently,  the 'ch' sound changed to
more appropiate one: vlaCH -> vlaSI.

So, again: 'olasz' was borrowed from Slavic, in which it was
used and are used even now in the meaning of Italian. 

+ - Re: Revanchist views or paranoia? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Alexander Bossy > wrote:
>	If I may paraphrase: "Since Voivodina, Transylvania, Slovakia, 
>Croatia, etc. were not given specifically to either Hungary or Austria by 
>international treaties, partition of the Austro-Hungarian Empire along 
>ethnic lines seems to me justified after the collapse of the Dual 
>Monarchy.  This would be in line with the principle of self-determination."

I've read a lot of dumb things from you, but this one is hard to top.
Maybe by saying that ... since Oltenia, Muntenia or Moldova were never given
to Romania by any treaty, partition of Romania would be justified.
You really seem to have a problem with proper anologies, so why
should I bother?

>	So, Hungary's claims on neighboring countries are based on "the 
>standards of the ... feudal system."  Wake up, Joe, feudalism is dead.  
>Even feudal families like mine realize that.  We now live in a world 
>dominated by democracies.  Popular will should be dominant.

What have you been drinking?  Or just had trouble comprehending what you
were reading?  You should _REALLY_ try harder to ascertain the time
frame of what we are talking about and not mix the present with the
historic past.

> In case you forgot, Hungary's claims to Transylvania this century 
>have always been historical.  It was the reason why the Romanian 
>population was "voluntarily" Magyarized before WWI.  It was why half of 
>Transylvania was handed over to Hungary by the Vienna diktat durring 
>WWII.  While Romania also has historical claims to Transylvania, 
>Romania's real claims are based on popular will.

Yes, history is important, especially the one that actually happened,
not the one that is invented to justify claims to a piece of real
estate.  In the light of Trianon, it's also not quite correct to say
that "half the Transylvania was handed over to Hungary by the Vienna
diktat".  For Hungarians Trianon was also a diktat, giving to Romania
alone more territory from Hungary than what remained.  After that,
the Second Vienna Arbitration giving half of that territory back to
Hungary was a partial justice.  I already expressed what I thought about
the "self-determination" so laudly advocated by the victorious WW I
powers without actually putting it to the test of plebiscite.  Such a
plebiscite would surely have resulted in different borders than what were
drawn in the smoky rooms around Versailles, though most of Transylvania
would still have gone to Romania.  But on such principle, much of
Florida should also belong to Cuba because of the large concentration of
Cuban refugees there.  But bygones are bygones and I only hope that
Hungary learned an important lesson from the consequences of her past
generosity toward immigrants and refugees from neighboring lands and 
puts a stop to it before another application of the "Wilson principle"
is put on the international agenda by some greedy neighbors.

Joe Pannon
+ - Re: NATO thoughts (and Internet toughtlessness) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Andras Nagy > wrote:

> Very well put together and insightful post. Unfortunately  
> we (and I do have eastern european backgroud) love to 
> fight or at least talk about fighting. In is just in our  
> nature !

That's all nice, but why do you have to dilute your post with including
the entire text of the message you were replying to?  Especially when
your reply was by an order of magnitude shorter than the included text!
Let's get some common sense about included text, guys!  You should only
include as much as is absolutely necessary to remind the readers what you
are responding to.  Let's not burden the network load by forcing it to
carry the same message more than once!

Joe Pannon
+ - Re: Queen Elizabeth II s Hungarian great-great-grandmot (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  (Frank O'Donnell) says:
>My wife's family has some encyclopedia articles and other notes
>which establish the following lineage:
>In 1835, Countess Claudine Rhedey of Kis-Rede married Duke
>Alexander of Wurttemberg; she became ennobled as Countess
>Hohenstein.  Their second child, Franz, married Princess
>Mary Adelaide and became known as Franz or Francis, Prince
>of Teck.  Their child, Princess Victoria Mary, married
>George V and produced George VI, who in turn was the father
>of Queen Elizabeth II of England.
>Does anyone know of any works on the Countess Rhedey or her
>family genealogically upstream of her?  My wife's paternal
>line is also Rhedey of Hungary, and although the chance of
>being significantly related to royalty is slight at best, this 
>may help us determine where the Rhedey ancestral area was
>(i.e. where is Kis-Rede?).  One source refers to the 
>"mountain fastnesses of Transylvania from which her family
>had sprung," but other bits suggest the Rhedey ancestral
>home may have been in southwest Hungary around the Drava
>Thanks much for any clues!

Alexander married morganaatically May 2, 1835, Countess Claudine Susanne, daugh
ter of Count Laszlo Rhedey de Kis-Rhede and his wife Baroness Agnes Inczedy
+ - Re: word order (was Re: Hungarian and ...] (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (Janos Szamosfalvi) writes:

>Hungarian is probably one of the hardest European language to learn 
>for a non-native speaker, so it's not hard to imagine that you were 
>corrected by others.   


>Actually, the correct word order may depend 
>not only on the intended meaning, 

I disagree, because that would mean that word order is free.

>but also on the preceeeding and 
>following sentences' word order.

I don't know about the following sentence, but it certainly does depend 
on the preceding sentences.

>There are many correct ways to say "the dog sees the man" in Hungarian,
>and even though there may only be one that fits into a particular 
>context, all of them are correct.  

Yes, of course - I don't deny this.

>Although this freedom may imply a context sensitive grammar, I would 
>rather think about some higher order, inter sentence grammar rules.

I think it is a context sensitive order, but: What exactly do you mean by 
'inter sentence grammar rules'? 

>If you say something in a sentence in a certain way, then the next 
>sentence have to comply with it, so some restrictions are placed on 
>that sentence based on the preceeding one.

My word!

Wolf Rackebrandt             |         Die Hoffnung ist ein sicherer Weg zu  
        |  unangenehmen Ueberraschungen, aber das Herz 
http://www.snafu.de/~lupus/  |          freut sich, wenn es einen Traum hat.
+ - Re: Hungarian and Sumerian? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > "Jeliko" > writes
>From: "Jeliko" >
>Subject: Re: Hungarian and Sumerian?
>Date: 30 Jun 1995 14:56:48 GMT

>Janos Szamosfalvi writes:

>> Well, sometimes it does make a difference, sometimes it doesn't.
>> For example,
>>       A kutya la'tja az embert.
>>       Az embert la'tja a kutya.
>> both mean the same thing and both would be translated as: The dog sees 
>> the man.

>Hmmm. Would it not be "The dog sees the man." and "The man is seen by the 
>dog"? Similar minor, but noticable difference.

yes: active versus passive voice....we do that in english too.  so the above 
would NOT be translated the same.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"ED Beta is simply the best consumer videotape format available."  
       --Video Magazine (Nov.1992, p. 30)
"Manufacturers may have a point when they perceive the U.S. consumer 
    electronics market as unsophisticated." --VideoMaker (March 1993, p. 88)
I opted for Betamax, the world for VHS. I for Amiga, the world for IBM clones.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
+ - Re: Luggage safety at Ferihegy Airport (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kriza Gyorgy ) wrote:
: In article >,  says...
: >
: >In article > Arlene Proebsting, 
: >writes:
: >>I heard that a lot of people have had their luggage stolen when flying 
: >>into Ferihegy airport.  Is this still a problem?  
: >
: >Dunno, I haven't heard of it.
: >

: I can imagine that statistically the situation is worse than, say, at Zurich 
: airport, but the fraction of lost luggage is still so low that you don't 
: need to worry about that. (This is from my own experience.)

: >>Also, how much should it cost to take a taxi from the airport to the 
: >>center of town? 
: >
: >It costs a goddamn lot. Only one taxi company got the right to
: >carry passengers away from Airport.  You have to pay accordingly
: >where you go because they have district charges. The chepast one
: >was last year 1200 Ft. Can you imagine that ? Five minutes drive
: >costed 1200 Ft !!!! If you went to Buda it was well above 3000 Ft.
: > 

: That one taxi company charges 56 Ft/km. 1200 Ft for a five-minute ride means 
: an average velocity of 260 km/h. I think you pay more than 1200 Ft, because 
: out of town you have to pay aller-retour, and the ride takes about 30 
: minutes. 

: >>Is there a way to ensure that you are not getting  ripped off ?
: >
: >I think you even have to pay more if you don't speak Hungarian.
: >

: This is exactly the reason why only one company is allowed to take 
: passangers at the airport. If something like that happens, now it can be 
: traced back to the company. It's true that one has to be careful with 
: taxi drivers in Budapest. Rules of riding a taxi are simple. You pay against 
: a printed receipt showing the distance and the kilometer charge. These 
: kilometer charges should be (and are) posted in teh taxi. You have to make 
: sure the meter starts with the right amount (also posted). You also have to 
: make sure that out of the typically three different km charges (day, night, 
: long distance) the driver uses the right one. This may be more difficult for 
: a foreigner. 

: Black economy is wide-spread in Hungary. Hungarians often pre-negotiate the 
: price. You pay less, and the driver will not pay the taxes. (Moreover, the 
: meter will accumulate a "rolling distance", and the charges are deductible 
: from the driver's income.)

: >There is a bus line (red 94 or ninety something) which goes
: >to the terminal of blue metro from the Airport. It is fast but
: >don't go too frequently.
: >
: >(I prefer calling my relatives to pick me up)
: >

: If nobody picks me up, I take the shuttle bus to go downtown (Erzsebet 
: ter, next to the Deak ter metro station) for 350 Ft. It goes every 30 
: minutes. That blue bus (94?) takes you to the Kobanya-Kispest metro and 
: train station for 35 Ft, if it helps. 

: >Tamás

: Gyorgy

In case you are interested, last summer I picked up a business card at 
Ferihegy airport for the Airport Minibus Service.  I don't have any 
prices, but they do have a number for reservations.
 	Phone: 157-8555, 157-6283
	Fax:   157-8993

Good Luck!  I'm going to Hungary in 2 weeks myself and I just can't wait. 
(I go every summer and I couldn't imagine missing a year).

+ - WANTED: Budapest->Minneapolis->Budapest ticket 22/27 Au (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Could anyone please help me buy a ticket leaving Budapest, Hungary on
(or before) 22 August to Minneapolis returning (late 26 or) 27 (or later)
August to Budapest. The crazy agreement between the airlines means that
my travel agent in the UK can't sell me tickets that do not originate
in this country. I have an ISIC student card, if that helps.
Please mailto:    Thanks!
+ - Re: $$ FASTCASH $$ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zoltan Koczkas wrote:


>This is a service.  **  IT IS PERFECTLY LEGAL  ** If you have any
>doubts as to the legality of this service, please refer to Title
>1302 and 1341 of the Postal Lottery Laws.


Legal?  HA!  A pyramid scheme is *still* a pyramid scheme (and also a 
chain-letter), and is also illegal.  

If this is so legal, why doesn't your post have a return email address?

It is cause for removal of accounts on many systems.  I for one will *not*
participate in illegal activities no matter *how* much people try to claim
that they are legal.  I believe the Postmaster General would use the laws
regarding chain letters to prosecute. 

On many systems, the Sys Admin won't think twice about deleting an account
if a complaint is brought up about participating in chain letters.  This 
goes especially on educational or business systems. 

One last thing:  Refrain from posting to newsgroups that have nothing to
do with the content of a post, lest ye be mail bombed.

<kill file activated>

         ,  ,         Paul-Joseph "Dragon" de Werk
         {  }         Software Engineer/QA
         \VV/         Non-HP Personnel
+ - Re: $$ FASTCASH $$ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)




> Follow these instructions EXACTLY, and in 20 to 60 days you will have
> received over 50,000.00 dollars IN CASH.

> [1]  Immediately mail $1.00 to the first 5 names listed below,
> starting

It may not be illegal in the USA but it is in the UK and it also has 
nothing to do with Trumpet Winsock so please keep this bilge to yourself.

Mike Robertson                E-mail: 
MES, 26 North Road,                   
Lerwick, Shetland, UK     Compuserve: 100016,1727
Phone: +44 1595 695762           Fax: +44 1595 694459
+ - Re: SHOUTING & SWEARING (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Oliver Tershnasy > wrote:
>	An interesting point (to me anyway) has been brought up
>and mentioned in several postings.
>	That Japenese & Hunragian laguages don't support any
>"shouting and swearing".

I donno about that. I speak both Hungarian and Japanese and can shout and
swear just fine in both languages :)

   \          /   ___   /    ____       /         /
  B/    ___  /     ./  /     /    __.__/    __.__/  sPACEMAN sPIFF
 R/\___    \/    _____/     /   ___/  /   ___/      
K/         /     /   /     /    /    /    /
!\________/______\  /_____/_____\   /_____\
>Oliver Tershansy
>a/k/a The AntiRush

+ - Re: $$ FASTCASH $$ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

ZoltanKoczkas wrote:

Perhaps if you learned to spell before, severely and received, we could 
take your words about good fortune seriously.

+ - Re: Air pollution (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Ruthart ) wrote:
: I was in Budapest 4 years ago and I too noticed the high level of 
: air pollution. There are two main sources: the Budapest Transit
: Company still uses locally manufactured buses with diesel engines.
: These engines are inefficient and purly maintained. You can see
: black smoke comming out of the exhaust system when-ever they 
: accelerate. The other source is passenger cars: there are still 
: many two stroke engines left from the former Eastern-European 
: auto manufacturers (although their number is deminishing as they
: find their way to the junk yard).
: George Ruthart, Mississauga, Ontario Canada
+ - Re: $$ FASTCASH $$ (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zoltan Koczkas wrote:


>This is a service.  **  IT IS PERFECTLY LEGAL  ** If you have any
>doubts as to the legality of this service, please refer to Title
>1302 and 1341 of the Postal Lottery Laws.


Legal?  HA!  A pyramid scheme is *still* a pyramid scheme (and also a 
chain-letter), and is also illegal.  

If this is so legal, why doesn't your post have a return email address?

It is cause for removal of accounts on many systems.  I for one will *not*
participate in illegal activities no matter *how* much people try to claim
that they are legal.  I believe the Postmaster General would use the laws
regarding chain letters to prosecute. 

On many systems, the Sys Admin won't think twice about deleting an account
if a complaint is brought up about participating in chain letters.  This 
goes especially on educational or business systems. 

One last thing:  Refrain from posting to newsgroups that have nothing to
do with the content of a post, lest ye be mail bombed.

<kill file activated>

         ,  ,         Paul-Joseph "Dragon" de Werk
         {  }         Software Engineer/QA
         \VV/         Non-HP Personnel
+ - Re: no comment! with a comment (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
ibokor > wrote:
>What  wrote reminded me of an examination

Well, what you write usually reminds me of my dear friend, Mihai Octavian:
always full of contempt and hate, always eager to blame Hungarians for all your


So what does this d.A. stand for? Please forgive this ignorance of mine, but
you know, I'm just a low-life from Hungary, speaking the North American version
of English.

+ - Re: no comment! question (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

What  wrote reminded me of an examination
paper in high school. It was an "unseen" to be translated into
English. The gist of the text is still present and the contribution
from  brings it vividly to mind.

A Hungarian linguist maintained that he could learn *any* language
from books alone. He went to a conference in London to present
a paper on his theory. After the lecture he was approached by an
Oxford Don who said, "That was a fascinating lecture, Professor
Kocsis. I didn't understand it all, but it made be aware of something
I had never known before: how much Hungarian resembles English."