Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX SCM 128
Copyright (C) HIX
1995-10-04
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Hungarian Newspaper (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Basic Good Manners (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Romania vs Rumania (mind)  95 sor     (cikkei)
4 Oali Chilar Defends Rude-Mania (mind)  95 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: UN SHOULD MAINTAIN ITS SUPPORT FOR NATO (mind)  64 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re:Romania vs Rumania (mind)  184 sor     (cikkei)
7 Looking for Peter Toth (a taxi cab driver) (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Hungarian economy (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
9 test, please respond to it (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re:Romania vs Rumania (mind)  274 sor     (cikkei)
11 T(e)AS(T)E OF "(the) (rrr)ROMANIA(n)" (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: bal vs. jobb (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Re: Are the rumanians trying to... (mind)  65 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Romania vs Rumania (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: acosoroaescu s rUmanian mind---still on SCM (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
16 SCM: Re: SCM: Re: Romania vs Rumania (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: SCM: test, please respond to it (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Spelling the name of the country (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Romania vs Rumania (mind)  69 sor     (cikkei)
20 UN and citizens (mind)  145 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Re- SCM- RE- Flag ban law p (mind)  2 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Hungarian Newspaper (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Spelling the name of the country (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
24 SCM: Re:Romania vs Rumania (mind)  285 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: Spelling the name of the country (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: Romania vs Rumania (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
27 The Flag law and Tomi s DOCUMENTS ! (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Spelling the name of the country (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
29 rUman_vs_rOman_tom_angi s_wife_and_other_essential_topi (mind)  63 sor     (cikkei)
30 Re: *** SZALON *** #981 (mind)  368 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Hungarian Newspaper (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sayuri Oshima ) wrote:

: My Hungarian Friend will stay New York about 2 month.
: Is there any possibility that he can get Hungarian News Paper
: or German Magazine "Der Spiegel" in New York?
: If you know something, please write me directory to:
 The hungarian newspaper can be gotten in Manhattan at 82nd
 street there is a HUngarian bookstore.
 Cheers
 Andras
+ - Re: Basic Good Manners (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

5 ) wrote:
: In article >,  (Scott
 
: Laws) writes:

: But I feel that Mr. Laws' comment is the right one. There were times when the
: English spelling of the country's name was different, but now Romania is the
: official name. It doesn't matter why those who decided on this spelling did i
t.
: The only thing that matters is that people want their country/nation to be 
: called
: like that. The fact that dictionaries accept the other two versions allow for
: their usage, but I don't think that everybony who does so wants to irritate t
he
: Romanians.

: On the other hand here are two examples which contradict somewhat this attitu
de:

: 1. Some of the same guys posting on this thread, a few months ago supported t
he
: Romanian government's decision to regulate the "official" use of the name for
: Romas/Gypsies, against their will, traditions and internationally accepted
: practice (see a dictionary for Roma, Romany).

: 2. Both my father, sixty something years ago, and my son, just a few years ag
o,
: were registred in their birth certificates as "Matei", although the parents 
: wanted them to be called "Matyas" (I was somewhat luckier). The claim was tha
t 
: there is no such name in Romanian as "Matyas". But gentemen we are not 
: Romanians!

	Hi Matyas:

	Your points are correct.  Insitance on the ROmania spelling 
deamnds a sensitivity on the part of non-Romanians.  Likewise, Romanians 
should have sensitivity to the names that other people want used to 
describe themselves.

	If Romania now will not accept that parents may want to name 
their child Matyas, and that it is none of the state's bussiness in any 
case, Romania is taking yet more bad lessons from pre-1919 Hungary.  Let 
us remember what was wrong back then, and not reimpose it.
	After all, the goal should be to integrate the minorities within the 
society, not to keep them foreever feeling oppressed - and waiting for 
any chance to turn on their oppressors.  Letting a child be named Matyas 
does not threaten the state.  Forbidding a child to be named Matyas 
oppresses him, his family, and his community.

	Alexander
+ - Re: Romania vs Rumania (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote:
: In article >, Alexander Bossy > wrote
:
: >
: >	Are you now arguing that non-Latin speaking Illyrians marched across 
: >Hungary where they first heard Latin, both in Hungarian churches and read 
: >it in Hungarian state documents, no doubt, and recognizing Magyar 
: >superiority, promptly adopted it?

: Oh, do we have to start that again, Alexander?  Romanians are no more
: of Roman stock than Bulgarians are Slavic.  Both of them adapted the
: language of their neighbors at some time in their history.

	Of course errors abound in this paragraph:
	1) The Bulgars conquered a Slavic peoples, and were promptly 
assimilated by them.  They did not REPLACE the Slavic population, and 
then adopt its language.  The situation is similar to that of Normandy, 
where the Norman conquerors were fully francophone within a century.
	2) What exactly do you mean by "of Roman stock"?  Romanians are 
as much "of Roman stock" as the French or Iberians.  By the way, do my 
decendants in another two thousand years get to call themselves "of 
American stock"?  Or are they still going to be Illyrians?

: >	You ignore two important facts: first etymology.  Like it or not, 
: >Romania means "land of the ROMANS". 

: That's right!  And from that it's obvious that this name is part of
: history creation.  With such a name it's so much easier to convince
: ignorant foreigners of Daco-Roman continuity.

	Oh, and what Soviet-invented theory as to its meaning do you 
subscribe to?

	Talking about history making, do you know what Wallachia was 
called in the Middle Ages?  Still another part of" history-making"?

	Your own theory is very convincing, except that you have 
forgotten to insert one vital thing in your revanchist conspiracy 
theory, something that you should have learned in Revanchist Conspiracy 
theories 101: blame it all on World Jewery, Jewish Banking, or, if you 
want to be PC, International Banking.  The Jewish connection to the 
modern Romanians is frighteningly obvious: the Illyrians were the lost 
tribes of Israel.  You doubt it?  Well, consider the names of the two 
groups: Israelities -> Israelians -> Illyrians.  The similarity between 
the names of the two groups is way to close to be mere conincidence.  This 
also helps explain why the Illyrians had no culture of their own, and 
had to keep adopting Slavic and Hungarian ones.
	As Jews, the Illyrians were a parasitical people who were incapable of 
developing their own culture, and so had to copy their neighbors' cultures.  
Initially, they copied the Slavs (and therefore no evidence of the 
Illyrians' survival as distinct people can befound.
	In Hungary, they first came upon the apex of Aryan civilization - 
that of the Magyars (don't worry about the fact that the Magyars aren't 
really Aryan - facts haven't come in your theories yet, so why should 
they come in now?).  But, as Jews, the Illyrians just couldn't copy so 
high a civilization.  Instead, they could only take foreign bits and 
pieces of Hungarian culture: primarily Latin from the Catholic Church, and 
the Royal Court.  Progressing on to Romania, they held fast to this one 
piece of Hungarian culture that was within their ability to grasp.  
Centuries passed.  Then, their breathern on Wall Street, hijacked the Wilson 
presidencey, and manipulated it into forcing the defeated Hungarians to 
accept self-determination on the part of the Transylvanian majority. In 
the late 30's Hungary regained some of its rightful territory.  But, the 
Romanian lost tribes of Israel had another card to play: Jewish 
Bolshevism.  They engenered Hungary's inclusion in the Eastern block so 
that Stalin could force Hungary to cede Transylvania back to 
Romania.  Stalin also annexed Bessarabia so that the Romanians there could 
augment the Jewish population of the Soviet Union, keeping it communist 
for another fifty years.  The Jewish Bolshevik connection also explains 
why Romania was the last European country to overthrow its communist 
government.

	Now, you see Joe, with a little work, your theories can really 
make sence.

	By the by, isn't it remarcable how ALL FOREIGN HISTORIANS can be sumarily 
dismissed as "ignorant".  Thankfully, the Magyar Ultranationalists alone 
can still see the truth, whatever evidence to the contrary is produced.  The 
cult of the will is alive and well.

: > Second, Romanians have spelled Romania ROmania since the switch back 
: >to the Latin alphabet last century.

: It was no doubt a spontaneous, natural thing and had nothing to do with
: the Romanian nationalist intelligentsia codifying the rules of grammar.

	Yes, like my great-great-grandfather, who translitterated our 
last name to Bossy, because it looked French, rather than to Bossii, as 
pure a Latin clan name as one could want, and the accurate 
transliteration to boot.  But, facts aren't your strong point, and reality 
has never been of much interest to you.  You should pick up writing sword 
and soccery novels.

	Your friend from the Lost Tribes,
	Alexander
+ - Oali Chilar Defends Rude-Mania (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Tom Angi > wrote:
>Actually, I think Vlachia is a much better way to spell it, or, even
>better,
>                    OLAJORSZAG
>
>RUMANIA RUMANIA RUMANIA RUMANIA RUMANIA RUMANIA RUMANIA RUMANIA
>
>ruMANIA ruMANIA
>
>What are you going to do about bub?

Oyvey! the schmuck should offer such an invitation!
Hold me back!!!!!

The time for verbal snipping has passed. This irritainment (thanks to Dr
Tom Evans for this one) has devolved. It is time to open the killfile.

.. . . 

This is a public service announcement from the Peoples Republic of Poetry
(A Kolteszet Nepkoztarsasaga):

Hidden inside a Buda-bunker were plans for a crafty attack artcraft
initially developed by the Megayar Communist Dictatorshit. During the 1956
turbulence some stealthy Roma-maniacs secreted the blueprints to a dacha
high in the Carpathians. Successive idiot dictatorshits in Rude-mania
caused the plans to be sold to a vacationing Canadian mooseherder for a
pack of Kent and an empty jar of Aspirins. Thinking the plans were a
contemporary form of Balkan decorative art, he pasted them to the wall of
his cabin. 

Recently, a visit to the cabin by a Member of the House of Uncommons of
the Peoples Republic of Poetry invoked the beloved Eureka Syndrome! The
mooseherder was given Poetic Licence and the Peoples Republic of Poetry
was given the plans. The Department of National Offence brought the plans
to fruition.

And here it is -- intact.

In accordance with the principles of the Policy of Poetry Proliferation
and invoking paragraph 5 of subsection 3, section 5 of the Poetic Justice
Act, the A Kolteszet Nepkoztarsasaga hereby releases in all its fed-up-
fury . . . 

Gentlemen, get your hard drives ready!
      1. Defrag: check
      2. Configure: check
      3. Open File: check
      4. Send: check

##########################################################################


                      SZARNOKsag   ------ - - -
zsarol zsarol zsarol <ZSARNOKI
                      SARNOKI
                      ASROKI    ---- - - 
                      RASKOI
                      RAKSOI
               RAKOSI RAKOSI RAKOSI RAKOSI  ======== = = =  =
                      RAKSOI
                      RASKOI   -- -  -
                      ASROKI
                      SARNOKI           /
zsarol zsarol zsarol <ZSARNOKI        -/---- - - -  -
                      SZARNOKsag      //
                                    SZAR


                                          /
                                         //
                                        //
                                      SZAR


                                              *   '
                                          (\ ^ / " 
                                          ((\'|^/)
                      Tom Angi wrote:       (\|/)
                                        OLAJO(*)RSZAG


Voila! Now it is OlajorSZAR, the cradle of your cult, sure? Oui? 
Where's Atilla now that you need him, eh?
(Atilla, a man who loved horsing around Europe)

                    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                    !!!A KOLTESZET A LEHETOSEG!!!
                    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency
+ - Re: UN SHOULD MAINTAIN ITS SUPPORT FOR NATO (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

And take this off the mexican.American group also

In >  (Marcin 
Bokszczanin) writes: 

>
>Bogdan Piotrowski ) wrote:
>: Estimado amigo de Mexico:
>
>: Qreo que Ud. estovo equivocado. Nosotros estamos Polacos y no 
discutimos 
>: sobre situacion de Yugoslavia.  Envie su carta a ellos.
>
>Creo, que qreo se escribe creo
>
>Un Polaco de Varsovia
>Marcin Bokszczanin
>
>: Adios,
>
>: Un Polaco de Toronto
>: B. Piotrowski
>
>
>: Organization: Toronto Free-Net
>: Distribution: 
>
>: Greg Laventman ) wrote:
>: :  (Constantin Donea) wrote:
>
>: : >In article >,  (Fredj 
Rouatbi) writes:
>: : >>
>: : >>
>: : >>On the other hand NATO has been there for a just cause. NATO goes 
out of the way to spare civilians lifes. Serbs hide their heavy weapons 
around civilians areas.
>: : >>
>: : >>
>: : >>There's No reason why NATO should not go on a war against the 
serb military. All countries in the region and around the world should 
be supportive of NATO.
>: : >>
>: : >>Fredj Rouatbi
>: : >>NORTEL
>
>: : >Oh give us a break! NATO simply was created for defense, not for 
attack.
>: : >Why should someone else fight for the Muslims in Bosnia??
>
>: : >Constantin Donea
>
>: : Gentlemen:   All of you have wonderful and good ideas on how to 
solve
>: : everything that is wrong in Sarajevo, and with all muslims. Okay.
>
>: : What the hell is this article and their responses doing in the
>: : Soc.culture. mexican?
>
>: : Please, gentlemen, use the thread and group that is the right one.
>
>: : Greg
>
>
+ - Re:Romania vs Rumania (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 2 Oct 1995, Liviu Iordache wrote:

> From: Matthew Peter Muresan
> 
> >spelling was Rumania[...] It was even in line with the
> >way many (less educated probably) Romanians have called
> >themselves for centuries ("rumi^n" -- just think of some
> 
> You might not be exactly correct here. What was the

Well, I said "probably".  So, "probably not", I suppose, after seeing your
abundant examples.  I don't think that the degree of education of people
who used "rumi^n" is *extraordinarily* relevant to the point at hand, but
if you insist... 

> >let alone the conspicuous and undeniable roman origins
> >of the Romanian nation.
>
> [...]
> 
> Therefore, none of the above spellings contradicts the
> Latin roots of the Romanian language. As a matter of
> fact, I'm not aware of any theory that denies the Latin
> roots of Romanians.

I agree, and I never said otherwise.  I'm not quite sure with whom you're 
arguing here: with me, or with what's his name I was arguing with in 
first place?
	Well, you're probably arguing with everybody indiscriminately. 
Well, arguing for the sake of arguing has its advantages too: you could
try out for your Junior High School's debate team!  That'd be, like,
awesome and stuff.  That'd kick ass: your mom would be happy and stuff 
and she'd buy you, like, the latest SEGA Genesis or somethin'.
	Paranoia, what.

> >That said, the one true measure of the generally
> >accepted spelling of any word is the way it shows in
> >scholarly works, in news magazines, and in dailies.  I
> >can testify based on a great number of books ...
> >agree on Romania as the correct spelling.  In fact, a
> >NEXIS search [...] never returned Rumania as a response.
> 
> Well, my search speaks the contrary (see Appendix). Let's

Yes, I'm convinced that the style books of the Ouagadougou Register and 
the Timbuktu Free Press stipulate that "Rumania" is the spelling of 
choice.  I limited my NEXIS search to major American and British 
newspapers and newsmagazines, though.

> >Finally, I am not willing (and honestly hope that nobody
> >else is either) to embark upon fighting any argument
> >that would assert that the Daco-Roman continuity is
> >bogus.  I think arguments in favour of that abound in
> >such a fashion that denying said continuity is akin to
> >saying that the Holocaust hasn't taken place.
> 
> Yeah, whatever... And the most categoric argument is the
> spelling "Romania," isn't it?


No.


>                                  Anyhow I must have missed
> something here. What is the connection between the Latin
> origin of Romanian, the Holocaust, and the so-called
> "Daco-Roman(ian)" theory? Not that I really care for an
> answer, but I find your reasoning quite charming.

You most certainly have missed something.  Take a deep breath, put the 
bong aside, read again, you know the drill.  Oh, thanks for the compliment.

Finally, for everybody's collective enjoyment, here's an edited version of
Mr Iordache's "Rumania" NEXIS search results.  Fungi, heat transfer, the
Romanian Anthropology review, the Cretaceous review, the Slavic review,
Hungarian entomology, toxicology,... it's all here.  I only kept the
titles of the publications that use "Rumania": they're all quite well
known, especially in the National Institute for Health's smoking lounge. 
Useless bit of trivia: Mr Iordache has edited out search result #23 of 30: 
I wonder what was in there? 


> Appendix
> 
>  SEARCH QUERY:
>  RUMANIA
>         1 OF  30
>  SO POLITISCHE-VIERTELJAHRESSCHRIFT.  1995, JUN, V36, N2, P319-327.

>         2 OF  30
>  SO ACTA-PHYTOPATHOLOGICA-ET-ENTOMOLOGICA-HUNGARICA.  1994, V29, N1-2,

>         3 OF  30
>  SO ZEITSCHRIFT-FUR-SOZIALPSYCHOLOGIE.  1995, V26, N1, P15-23.

>         4 OF  30
>  SO HYDROBIOLOGIA.  1995, FEB 24, V298, N1-3, P307-313.

>         5 OF  30
>  SO PHYTON-ANNALES-REI-BOTANICAE.  1994, V34, N2, P169+.

>         6 OF  30
>  SO ECLOGAE-GEOLOGICAE-HELVETIAE.  1994, V87, N3, P895-973.

>         7 OF  30
>  SO FUEL.  1995, JAN, V74, N1, P119-123.

>         8 OF  30
>  SO MUSIK-UND-KIRCHE.  1994, SEP-OCT, V64, N5, P303-303.

>         9 OF  30
>  SO SLAVONIC-AND-EAST-EUROPEAN-REVIEW.  1994, JUL, V72, N3, P562-563.

>        10 OF  30
>  SO EUROPEAN-JOURNAL-OF-PSYCHIATRY.  1993, OCT-DEC, V7, N4, P219-228.

>        11 OF  30
>  SO TLS-THE-TIMES-LITERARY-SUPPLEMENT.  1994, JUL 22, N4764, P26-26.

>        12 OF  30
>  SO HISTORY-OF-EUROPEAN-IDEAS.  1994, MAR, V18, N2, P241-254.

>        13 OF  30
>  SO ANTHROPOLOGIE.  1993, V97, N2-3, P542-542.

>        14 OF  30
>  SO ANTHROPOLOGIE.  1993, V97, N2-3, P511-514.

>        15 OF  30
>  SO ANTHROPOLOGIE.  1993, V97, N2-3, P265-270.

>        16 OF  30
>  SO ANTHROPOLOGIE.  1993, V97, N2-3, P239-264.

>        17 OF  30
>  SO JOURNAL-OF-BALTIC-STUDIES.  1993, FAL, V24, N3, P315-315.

>        18 OF  30
>  SO COLLEGIUM-ANTROPOLOGICUM.  1993, DEC, V17, N2, P297-303.

>        19 OF  30
>  SO AMERICAN-HISTORICAL-REVIEW.  1993, DEC, V98, N5, P1577-1577.

>        20 OF  30
>  SO SLAVIC-REVIEW.  1993, FAL, V52, N3, P612-613.

>        21 OF  30
>  SO PURE-AND-APPLIED-GEOPHYSICS.  1993, V140, N3, P391-402.

>        22 OF  30
>  SO CRETACEOUS-RESEARCH.  1993, JUN, V14, N3, P265-305.

(hmmm... why was 23 of 30 missing?)

>        24 OF  30
>  SO SLAVIC-REVIEW.  1993, SPR, V52, N1, P139-140.

>        25 OF  30
>  SO REVUE-D-ETUDES-COMPARATIVES-EST-OUEST.  1992, DEC, V23, N4, P89-126

>        26 OF  30
>  SO INTERNATIONAL-JOURNAL-OF-CLINICAL-PHARMACOLOGY-THERAPY-AND-
>     TOXICOLOGY.  1993, JUN, V31, N6, P301-308.

>        27 OF  30
>  SO EUROPE-ASIA-STUDIES.  1993, V45, N3, P567-568.

>        28 OF  30
>  SO REVUE-D-ETUDES-COMPARATIVES-EST-OUEST.  1992, JUN-SEP, V23, N2-3,

>        29 OF  30
>  SO INTERNATIONAL-REVIEW-OF-EDUCATION.  1993, MAR, V39, N1-2, P133-136

>        30 OF  30
>  SO MYCOTAXON.  1993, JAN-MAR, V46, JAN-, P35-36.



	-Matei Petru Muresan

...........................................................................
Matthew Peter Muresan, Trumbull;                         Yale-College 1996
Datae:Coll:Yalen:Nov:Port:R:P:Conn:Nov:Angl:Kal:Oct:A:D:MCMXCV:Coll:CCXCIV
...........................................................................
+ - Looking for Peter Toth (a taxi cab driver) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I met Peter Toth in Germany in 1976/1977.  He planned to work in
Germany long enough to buy a taxicab and return to Hungary.  He was a
weight lifter and looked pretty strong.  If you know him please help
me contact him.   I owe him money but never had chance to pay him back

Please email me if you can help.  (ps  please use english)
+ - Re: Hungarian economy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > Fkemeny, 
writes:
> However, I am
>still not sure what the interest rates are on dollar-deposits would be.

The interest is higher then in USA or in any western country. The
actual rates vary from bank to bank.

Tamas
+ - test, please respond to it (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am testing a means of posting. Please respond to this article if you read it.

Thanks.
+ - Re:Romania vs Rumania (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

From: Matthew Peter Muresan

>Yes, up to the late 1950s, the generally accepted
>spelling was Rumania[...] It was even in line with the
>way many (less educated probably) Romanians have called
>themselves for centuries ("rumi^n" -- just think of some
>ballads and other such folklore).

You might not be exactly correct here. What was the
spelling used by boyar Neacsu of Cimpulung, most
certainly one of the educated Romanians of the 16th
century?

Tseara ruma~neasca~!!!

How about the famous Prof.Nae Ionescu? What was the
spelling stressed in the columns of his 1930s newspaper
"Cuvintul?"

Not Roma^n, but Ruma^n!!!

>let alone the conspicuous and undeniable roman origins
>of the Romanian nation.

Yes, but as far as linguistic is concerned "Romanian" is
derived from "romanus" via "ruma~n" and not the other way
around. The evolutionary path, as correctly as it can be
reconstructed, is

romanus-->ruma~n-->rumi^n-->roma^n

Therefore, none of the above spellings contradicts the
Latin roots of the Romanian language. As a matter of
fact, I'm not aware of any theory that denies the Latin
roots of Romanians.

>That said, the one true measure of the generally
>accepted spelling of any word is the way it shows in
>scholarly works, in news magazines, and in dailies.  I
>can testify based on a great number of books ...
>agree on Romania as the correct spelling.  In fact, a
>NEXIS search [...] never returned Rumania as a response.

Well, my search speaks the contrary (see Appendix). Let's
stress here that many of the authors that still use the
English spelling "Rumania" are Romanians, working
currently in Romania, or researchers from abroad highly
trained in matters concerning Romanian history and,
therefore, aware of many of the Romanian nationalistic
phobias.

>Finally, I am not willing (and honestly hope that nobody
>else is either) to embark upon fighting any argument
>that would assert that the Daco-Roman continuity is
>bogus.  I think arguments in favour of that abound in
>such a fashion that denying said continuity is akin to
>saying that the Holocaust hasn't taken place.

Yeah, whatever... And the most categoric argument is the
spelling "Romania," isn't it? Anyhow I must have missed
something here. What is the connection between the Latin
origin of Romanian, the Holocaust, and the so-called
"Daco-Roman(ian)" theory? Not that I really care for an
answer, but I find your reasoning quite charming.

According to an ancient Chinese document, the Moon is
made up of green cheese. Denying this is like saying that
our Hungarian fellows are in no way related to Attila.

Liviu Iordache

Appendix

 SEARCH QUERY:
 RUMANIA
        1 OF  30
 AU CROMEN-E.  GREGORI-I.  SCHASHER-A.
 TI RUMANIA UNDERGOING RADICAL CHANGE - PROSPECTS AND PROBLEMS REGARDING
    EUROPEAN INTEGRATION - GERMAN - GREGORI,I, SCHASER,A.
 SO POLITISCHE-VIERTELJAHRESSCHRIFT.  1995, JUN, V36, N2, P319-327.
    ISSN 0032-3470.
        2 OF  30
 AU SARINGER-G.  TAKACS-A.
 TI BIOLOGY AND CONTROL OF TANYMECUS-DILATICOLLIS GYLL (COL,
    CURCULIONIDAE).
 SO ACTA-PHYTOPATHOLOGICA-ET-ENTOMOLOGICA-HUNGARICA.  1994, V29, N1-2,
    P173-185.
    ISSN 0238-1249.
 AB T. dilaticollis has long been a member of the Hungarian fauna, but
    publication on its damage only appeared in 1952.  In South-Eastern
    European countries first of all in Rumania, ......
        3 OF  30
 AU LANTERMANN-ED.  HANZE-M.
 TI VALUES AND MATERIAL SUCCESS OF RESETTLERS.
 SO ZEITSCHRIFT-FUR-SOZIALPSYCHOLOGIE.  1995, V26, N1, P15-23.
    ISSN 0044-3514.
 AB A causal two-step model for the development ....
    ....The model was
    tested with a structural equation model on the basis of interview
    data from 239 resettler families from Poland, ROUMANIA...
        4 OF  30
 AU PETKOVSKI-S.
 TI ON THE PRESENCE OF THE GENUS TANYMASTIX SIMON, 1886 (CRUSTACEA,
    ANOSTRACA) IN MACEDONIA.
 SO HYDROBIOLOGIA.  1995, FEB 24, V298, N1-3, P307-313.
    ISSN 0018-8158.
 AB The genus Tanymastix Simon, 1886 is represented in Macedonia by two
    species: Tanymastix stagnalis (Linnaeus, 1758) and Tanymastix motasi
    Orghidan, 1945. ... In
    T. motasi, the original description of the species, hitherto known
    only for the Giurgiu Region in RUMANIA, is supplemented by additional
    diagnostic characteristics.
        5 OF  30
 AU TEPPNER-H.  KLEIN-E.  DRESCHER-A.  ZAGULSKIJ-M.
 TI NIGRITELLA-CARPATICA (ORCHIDACEAE ORCHIDEAE) - A RELIC ENDEMIC OF THE
    EASTERN CARPATHIANS - TAXONOMY, DISTRIBUTION, KARYOLOGY AND
    EMBRYOLOGY.
 SO PHYTON-ANNALES-REI-BOTANICAE.  1994, V34, N2, P169+.
    ISSN 0079-2047.
 AB Nigritella carpatica (Zapalowicz) Teppner, Klein & Zagulskij, comb.
    nova, is described in full detail.....
    The species is endemic in the northwestern
    part of the East Carpathian Mountains and is known from six locations
    (in RUMANIA and the Ukraine)...
        6 OF  30
 AU PFISTER-T.  WEGMULLER-U.
 TI UPPER MARINE MOLASSE, MIDDLE BURDIGALIAN NEAR BERNE, SWITZERLAND .1.
    PALAEOTAXODONTA AND PTERIOMORPHIA PRO-PARTE.
 SO ECLOGAE-GEOLOGICAE-HELVETIAE.  1994, V87, N3, P895-973.
    ISSN 0012-9402.
 AB The rich and diverse macrofauna of the Belpbergschichten
    ......... The location of the area at the transition
    from the Central Paratethys (E-Bavaria to Ukraine and RUMANIA)
        7 OF  30
 AU NASCU-HI.  COMSULEA-DI.  NIAC-G.
 TI THE DISTRIBUTION OF INORGANIC ELEMENTS BETWEEN COAL AND MINERAL
    MATTER IN RUMANIAN LIGNITE.
 SO FUEL.  1995, JAN, V74, N1, P119-123.
    ISSN 0016-2361.
        8 OF  30
 AU BOHM-H.
 TI A BACH ACADEMY IN RUMANIA.
 SO MUSIK-UND-KIRCHE.  1994, SEP-OCT, V64, N5, P303-303.
    ISSN 0027-4771.
        9 OF  30
 AU DELETANT-D.
 TI THE GREAT-POWERS AND RUMANIA, 1944-1946 - A STUDY OF THE EARLY
    COLD-WAR ERA - SAIU,L.
 SO SLAVONIC-AND-EAST-EUROPEAN-REVIEW.  1994, JUL, V72, N3, P562-563.
    ISSN 0037-6795.
       10 OF  30
 AU LAZARESCU-M.  ARDELEANU-V.  JIANU-A.
 TI STUDY ON THE REACTIVE PSYCHOSIS OCCURRED DURING THE REVOLUTION OF
    DECEMBER 1989 - TIMISOARA, RUMANIA.
 SO EUROPEAN-JOURNAL-OF-PSYCHIATRY.  1993, OCT-DEC, V7, N4, P219-228.
    ISSN 0213-6163.
       11 OF  30
 AU DELETANT-D.
 TI RUMANIA, 1866-1947 - HITCHINS,K.
 SO TLS-THE-TIMES-LITERARY-SUPPLEMENT.  1994, JUL 22, N4764, P26-26.
    ISSN 0307-661X.
       12 OF  30
 AU SNEDEKER-DC.
 TI NATIONALISM AND THE MILITARY IN THE 1990S - THE UNIQUE CASE OF
    RUMANIA.
 SO HISTORY-OF-EUROPEAN-IDEAS.  1994, MAR, V18, N2, P241-254.
    ISSN 0191-6599.
       13 OF  30
 AU PERPERE-M.
 TI THE PALEOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC OF RUMANIA IN A EUROPEAN CONTEXT -
    FRENCH - CHIRICA,V, MONAH,D.
 SO ANTHROPOLOGIE.  1993, V97, N2-3, P542-542.
    ISSN 0003-5521.
       14 OF  30
 AU BORONEANT-V.
 TI NEW DATA ON ANTHROPOLOGICAL DISCOVERIES FROM SCHELA-CLADOVEI,
    DROBETA-TURNU SEVERIN (RUMANIA).
 SO ANTHROPOLOGIE.  1993, V97, N2-3, P511-514.
    ISSN 0003-5521.
       15 OF  30
 AU PELISEK-J.
 TI QUATERNARY SEDIMENTS IN THE AREA OF MAMAIA-SAT, RUMANIA, ON THE BLACK
    SEA SHORELINE.
 SO ANTHROPOLOGIE.  1993, V97, N2-3, P265-270.
    ISSN 0003-5521.
       16 OF  30
 AU VALOCH-K.
 TI THE INDUSTRIES OF THE MIDDLE PALAEOLITHIC SITE MAMAIA-SAT (RUMANIA)
 SO ANTHROPOLOGIE.  1993, V97, N2-3, P239-264.
    ISSN 0003-5521.
       17 OF  30
 AU URBAN-W.
 TI THE GREAT-POWERS AND RUMANIA, 1944-1946 - A STUDY OF THE EARLY
    COLD-WAR ERA - SAIU,L.
 SO JOURNAL-OF-BALTIC-STUDIES.  1993, FAL, V24, N3, P315-315.
    ISSN 0162-9778.
       18 OF  30
 AU PRADO-C.  GOMEZLOBO-P.
 TI ANTHROPOLOGY AS A PREDICTOR OF RISK FACTORS ON CARDIOVASCULAR
    DISEASES - ADOLESCENT PERIOD.
 SO COLLEGIUM-ANTROPOLOGICUM.  1993, DEC, V17, N2, P297-303.
    ISSN 0350-6134.
 AB ......
    where the morbi-mortality due to cardiovascular diseases has most
    positive.  Spain is, together with RUMANIA, the European country
    where the morbi-mortality due to cardiovascular diseases has most
    augmented.
       19 OF  30
 AU MICHELSON-PE.
 TI THE GREAT POWERS AND RUMANIA, 1944-1946 - A STUDY OF THE EARLY COLD
    WAR ERA - SAIU,L.
 SO AMERICAN-HISTORICAL-REVIEW.  1993, DEC, V98, N5, P1577-1577.
    ISSN 0002-8762.
       20 OF  30
 AU KELLOGG-F.
 TI THE GREAT POWERS AND RUMANIA, 1944-1946 - A STUDY OF THE EARLY
    COLD-WAR ERA - SAIU,L.
 SO SLAVIC-REVIEW.  1993, FAL, V52, N3, P612-613.
    ISSN 0037-6779.
       21 OF  30
 AU KIRATZI-AA.
 TI ACTIVE DEFORMATION IN THE VRANCEA REGION, RUMANIA.
 SO PURE-AND-APPLIED-GEOPHYSICS.  1993, V140, N3, P391-402.
    ISSN 0033-4553.
       22 OF  30
 AU AVRAM-E.  SZASZ-L.  ANTONESCU-E.  BALTRES-A.  IVA-M.  MELINTE-M.
    NEAGU-T.  RADAN-S.  TOMESCU-C.
 TI CRETACEOUS TERRESTRIAL AND SHALLOW MARINE DEPOSITS IN NORTHERN
    SOUTH-DOBROGEA (SE RUMANIA).
 SO CRETACEOUS-RESEARCH.  1993, JUN, V14, N3, P265-305.
    ISSN 0195-6671.
       24 OF  30
 AU FISCHER-ME.
 TI 20TH-CENTURY RUMANIA - FISCHERGALATI,S.
 SO SLAVIC-REVIEW.  1993, SPR, V52, N1, P139-140.
    ISSN 0037-6779.
       25 OF  30
 AU CETERCHI-I.
 TI INSTITUTIONAL PROBLEMS OF TRANSITION IN RUMANIA.
 SO REVUE-D-ETUDES-COMPARATIVES-EST-OUEST.  1992, DEC, V23, N4, P89-126
    ISSN 0338-0599.
       26 OF  30
 AU SIMONIC-A.  VRHOVAC-B.
 TI CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY IN EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.
 SO INTERNATIONAL-JOURNAL-OF-CLINICAL-PHARMACOLOGY-THERAPY-AND-
    TOXICOLOGY.  1993, JUN, V31, N6, P301-308.
    ISSN 0174-4879.
 AB The current ...
    It is mainly basic in only a few
    countries (RUMANIA, Turkey,
       27 OF  30
 AU PEARTON-M.
 TI THE GREAT POWERS AND RUMANIA 1944-1946 - A STUDY OF THE EARLY
    COLD-WAR ERA - SAIU,L.
 SO EUROPE-ASIA-STUDIES.  1993, V45, N3, P567-568.
    ISSN 0038-5859.
       28 OF  30
 AU LABARONNE-D.
 TI THE RUMANIAN ECONOMY IN TRANSITION TO A MARKET ECONOMY - ECONOMIC AND
    INSTITUTIONAL REFORMS.
 SO REVUE-D-ETUDES-COMPARATIVES-EST-OUEST.  1992, JUN-SEP, V23, N2-3,
    P105-136.
       29 OF  30
 AU BIRZEA-C.
 TI THE ISSUE OF POPULATION IN RUMANIA.
 SO INTERNATIONAL-REVIEW-OF-EDUCATION.  1993, MAR, V39, N1-2, P133-136
       30 OF  30
 AU VANEV-SG.  NEGREAN-G.
 TI RAMULARIA-BISCUTELIAE, SP-NOV.
 SO MYCOTAXON.  1993, JAN-MAR, V46, JAN-, P35-36.
 AB .......
       During taxonomic investigations of some undetermined Hyphomycetous
    specimens deposited in the Mycological Herbarium of the Institute of
    Biological Sciences, Bucharest, RUMANIA (BUCM),....
+ - T(e)AS(T)E OF "(the) (rrr)ROMANIA(n)" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Last time I've seen you, I remember, you were sleeping on
the pavement while little kids were teasing you about the
hair on your tongue (I recall the old Illyrian tease:
>>Taran cu par pe limba!<<)  Poor Batiushka, I guess the
free grape juice (*must*), so abundant at the "Taste of
Romania," was too strong for an old fart like you.
Reading your recent posts on scr, scm, and "romanians," I
suspect that you might not have recovered yet. Or maybe
this is just your pathetic way of acknowledging that you
are not a good sport.

Liviu Iordache
+ - Re: bal vs. jobb (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

AND Books ) wrote:
: a linguistic no-brainer question: in mgy the word left iz "bal" whilst the 
: word for right is "jobb"... i know of several pejoratives for left, but none 
: for right.. (eg fa'ca'n, la'bu, baleset, balcsillag, balek, balekfogo, 
: balfoga's, balga, balhedelem, balhit, baljos, balle'pe's, balog, balpa'rt,
: balsiker, balsors, balszerencse, )
: 
: any explanations? (academic or other?)
: 
: just a thought!
: 

Historically, at least in European societies, "left" is associated with
evil. "Sinister" originally meant left-handed. That may be connected
with "balszerencse", etc.

d.A.
:
+ - Re: Re: Are the rumanians trying to... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  writ
es:

That is your posting below represents the official "fujitsu" opinion.

|>  
|> > From: 
|>  
|> > Subject: Re: Are the rumanians trying to...
|>  
|> > Organization: Eotvos University, Budapest, Hungary
|>  
|>  
|> > It seems to me that everyone forgot that not only hungarians and
|> > rumanians live(d) in Transsylvania (Siebenbu:rgen).
|> 
|> Nein, wir haben nicht vergessen, mein Herr.  Ihren Brudern aus Amerika
|> und Hungarien haben vergessen.  Die Saxen  haben sehr viel gemacht in
|> Siebenbuergen und keine Rumanien haben dass nicht gesagt.
		     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^	
What is the purpose of this reply, because if you wanted to show everybody how
"cultured" you are, you missed (that is at least double negation, not to speak
about other miss... 's). On the other hand I witnessed a very sad story which
contradicts your (too) strong statement, in which a Romanian university profess
or
had said in class that the Germans in Romania are intruders... (there was at le
ast
one "Sachse" in the class - he quit the classroom ...)

|> 
|> 
|> > My grandfather
|> > was an ethnic german and had to flee from the atrocities when the
|> > "civilized followers of the culture of Rome" took over Transsylvania.
|> 
|> Sie haben zu viele Gesichte gelessen in Budapest.
|> Sie muessen nach Berlin gehen wo kann man mehr lessen !
				^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
.... mehr lesen kann! ... but probably this is not your strong side.

|> 
|> > The only Romans the Vlach sheperds seem to be following are Caligula
|> > and Heliogabalus (Elagabal). Nero was probably too civilized.
|> 
|> Igen ! Heil Cezar !
|> 
|> > 
|> >         Tschuess,
|> 
|> Servus !
|> 
|> >                                         gff
|> 
|> HAdrian  - great great ... great son of Caligula
|> 
|> 

Although I find gff's posting too strong there is a lot of truth in it...

Matyas 
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+ - Re: Romania vs Rumania (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Alexander Bossy > wrote:

>  The Jewish connection to the 
>modern Romanians is frighteningly obvious: the Illyrians were the lost 
>tribes of Israel.  You doubt it?  Well, consider the names of the two 
>groups: Israelities -> Israelians -> Illyrians.  The similarity between 
>the names of the two groups is way to close to be mere conincidence.  This 
>also helps explain why the Illyrians had no culture of their own, and 
>had to keep adopting Slavic and Hungarian ones.

If you say so, Counsel ...

Joe
+ - Re: acosoroaescu s rUmanian mind---still on SCM (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
Tom Angi > wrote:
>
>Why oh why do they hang out on Magyar teritory?
>
>Tell him to go home.

Oh, come now, Tom!  You see it all wrong!  Almost all their presence
here is propoganda victory for us!  Intelligent impartial visitors to
s.c.m. can't fail to see the contrast between their posts and ours.
So "all power to them", I say. ;-)

Joe
+ - SCM: Re: SCM: Re: Romania vs Rumania (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

unsubscribe soc-culture-magyar
+ - Re: SCM: test, please respond to it (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>I am testing a means of posting. Please respond to this article if you read it
.
>
>Thanks.

I read it
+ - Re: Spelling the name of the country (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Alexander,
I understand peoples who wants to be part of civilization world.
But,to do this, you have to consider a lot of things;for example,
if we take a look at the origin of your country,you'll be 
surprised to know that you came from Central Asia, not Central 
Europe,how you desperately want it.So, my friend, try to be smart
and let thinks to be like they are presently.I appreciate your 
understanding. 
                   Ionel
+ - Re: Romania vs Rumania (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> From: Liviu Iordache >
 ..............
>> From: Matthew Peter Muresan
> 
> >Yes, up to the late 1950s, the generally accepted
> >spelling was Rumania[...] It was even in line with the
> >way many (less educated probably) Romanians have called
> >themselves for centuries ("rumi^n" -- just think of some
> >ballads and other such folklore).
.................
> Yes, but as far as linguistic is concerned "Romanian" is
> derived from "romanus" via "ruma~n" and not the other way
> around. The evolutionary path, as correctly as it can be
> reconstructed, is
> 
> romanus-->ruma~n-->rumi^n-->roma^n
> 
> Therefore, none of the above spellings contradicts the
> Latin roots of the Romanian language. As a matter of
> fact, I'm not aware of any theory that denies the Latin
> roots of Romanians.

The evolution explained is well known by many people and I think that,
leaving aside the jokes, what  some people tried to say is that :

 ROMANIA is a "more appropriate" naming for two reasons:
- It is the official name commonly used in recent publications
- It shows more clearly the historical connection

...................

> >Finally, I am not willing (and honestly hope that nobody
> >else is either) to embark upon fighting any argument
> >that would assert that the Daco-Roman continuity is
> >bogus.  I think arguments in favour of that abound in
> >such a fashion that denying said continuity is akin to
> >saying that the Holocaust hasn't taken place.
> 
> Yeah, whatever... And the most categoric argument is the
> spelling "Romania," isn't it? 

Has anybody claimed that ?

>Anyhow I must have missed
> something here. 
>What is the connection between the Latin
> origin of Romanian, the Holocaust, and the so-called
> "Daco-Roman(ian)" theory? Not that I really care for an
> answer, but I find your reasoning quite charming.

The man intended to say that in "his opinion" the evidence of
Daco-Romanian continuity is such that denial would be ridiculous.
He probably has not seen your previous posts inspired so well from
Hungarian textbooks but having the arrival of Romanians in Transylvania
moved back a couple hundred years to make it look somewhat original (a
"fact" that still seem to escape Panonescu who keeps quoting you like
the Bible).  You could answer him straight rather than act like a "Smart
Ass". 

> According to an ancient Chinese document, the Moon is
> made up of green cheese. Denying this is like saying that
> our Hungarian fellows are in no way related to Attila.
 
Is like your previous "argument" was not enough sarcasm, you smear
more shit on top of it.

> Liviu Iordache
 
(H)Adrian C(aligulescu)
+ - UN and citizens (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

THE UNITED NATIONS AND THE CITIZENS

It is far from the truth to assert that the United Nations has
supranational authority and that it uses it in a peremptory way, as
though the United Nations had authoritarian power.  The conventions
and treaties adopted by the UN are adopted by sovereign states and not
by virtue of an imaginary right that the UN would have.  The United
Nations is only the result of the wishes expressed by the states which
are members of it and, particularly by the five permanent members of
the Security Council (China, the United-states, France, Great-Britain
and Russia).

Since the end of international bipolarity, the United Nations has been
subdued to these five countries and especially to the United States
which  imposes a rule that expresses the North American wishes and not
the wishes of the peoples of the world.

Russia and China are not the only countries that deserve the name «
megamurderers ».  The United States is responsible for the death of 2
million Vietnamese.  Between 1969 and 1975, the United States dropped
539,529 tons of bombs over Cambodia (a figure to be compared with the
160,000 tons of bombs dropped over Japan between 1941 and 1945).  For
decades, the United-States advised and supported the most bloody
military dictatorships in Latin America and elsewhere in the world.
As for Europe, it spread war twice all over the world, within half a
century.   Nobody is entitled to make a judgement on anybody.

The United Nations « rule of law » model is better than the United
States model because it gives a vision of the world which doesn’t
submit citizens to any particular religious law.  The United Nations
Charter is more inspired by the « Age of Enlightenment » and by the
secular principles of the « 1789 declaration of the rights of man and
citizen » than by the 1787 American Constitution which is wholly
imbued with religious dogma.  Nowadays, we know where religious
fanatism leads.  A world built for everyone must confine any religious
and philosophical matter to the private life sphere of every
individual.  Or else, it would mean that there is just one only world
for the Judeo-Christians, one only world for the Muslims,... in short,
only one world for the people who believe they are the only ones who
detain THE ONLY truth.  A world for Manicheans. A world that leads to
the rule of jungle and eventually to war.  At the dawn of the
twenty-first century, a world like that must definitely be banned.

No wonder that the North American right wing, supported by probably
the most Manichean population of the world, in their search for a new
Devil to combat since communism collapsed, has been denigrating the
United Nations.  The universal values of the United Nations Charter
are incompatible with values such as domination, exclusion,
selfishness.  Indeed, the United Nations has failed to have all the
governments share the values of its Charter.  Therefore, the fiftieth
anniversary of  the United Nations mustn’t be an opportuny for
official celebrations but rather a chance for a deep thinking and an
assessment of its achievements and shortcomings 

If one looks at how the United Nations works, at its history and its
achievements, only one conclusion can be drawn by anyone who cannot do
with status quo: realism calls for a reform of the Institution.
Indeed, who would dare to assert that the United Nations fulfills the
commitments put down, on behalf of all of us, in the preamble and the
first article of its Charter?

The question raised today, not only on the occasion of the
Institution’s 50th anniversary but especially following the
outstanding failures that official discourses can no longer even
conceal, is simple: Is the United Nations the most adequate instrument
to achieve its priority objectives, e.g. peace all over the world, a
fair international order, respect fo human dignity and progress for
all the peoples?

This has nothing to do with fashion.  On the contrary!  A repeated
criticism of the Organisation, too gladly supported by some folks,
only serves the interests of those - states, firms, transnational
financial companies, international crime organisations - who wish to
conceal their responsabilities in today’s tragedies by loading them
onto a scape-goat institution.

Analysing the United Nations involves looking, in the first place, at
the external factors that have led to its failure.  Even if they still
need to be clearly identified, the causes linked to the attitude of
the organisation’s senior excutives are nothing compared with the
causes due to the states’ attitude.

Fifty years ago, the peoples of the world, traumatised by the nameless
horrors of he Second World War, entrusted their governments with the
task of combining their efforts in order to build a world of peace,
the foundations of which would be freedom and justice.

Should the United Nations Charter anniversary make any sense, it can
only be that of an opportunity for self-assessment, for accounting for
what has been done and for drawing conclusions.  The peoples of the
world must be given the means to appraise what use has been made of
the mandate they entrusted their governments with.  Only in that way
does the United Nations overall assessment take a dimension that
corresponds to reality and needs: an assessment of the international
order leaders’ action.

This appraisal is too often evaded by the triumphalist discourses of
leaders who have once and for all self-proclaimed their infallibility.
Thus, criticism will not be made by those who bear the responsibility
of such  heavy liabilities and such light assets.  It can only be made
by their constituents.  And this requires that the peoples themselves
take over the responsibility of the relations between them.

Governments’ action in the international order must be fully examined
and criticized by the citizens.  As Belgian poltician Roger Lallement
writes: « We still live as if the sphere of our own responsibility
ended where that of our States started.. In fact, this fictitious
segmentation affects our democratic values ».  There can no longer be
any head of state’s private domain.   Beyond the democratic gap that
this tradition involves, the usage that has been made of it has
moreover led, too often, to nothing but tragedies.

As there is no such thing as fatality in the internal order, nor is
there such thing as fatality in the international order.  Too many
choices are made out of any democratic control.  Other choices are
made with massive efforts to condition  public opinion.  The peoples
suffer because of those choices.  Therefore those choices must be
discussed by the peoples.  With their governments, if that is
possible; despite them, if that is necessary.

The real motives and objectives of States are almost always concealed
to the public because they are essentially driven, not by the
wilingness to meet the common interests of the people, but by either
economic interests or the specific interests of international actors.

Therefore it is vital to pronounce the end of government leaders’
absolutism in international relations and to submit foreign policy to
the rules of democracy.  It is therefore vital to break down myths and
generally accepted ideas used by governments to have their decisions
accepted and later to explain their errors and their faults.

Raoul M. Jennar is an analyst of Belgian politics who has just had his
book « L’ONU et le Citoyen » (The UN  and the citizens) published in
Paris by L’Harmatan.


_________________________________________________________________
|Didier Vandenbroeck                                            |
|Arkham Consulting S.A.                / There will always      |
|176 rue Edouard Dekoster             /  be a future for people |
|1140 BRUSSEL                   \    /   who think to the future|
|Belgium                         \  /                           |
|Tel +32-2-2417312                \/                            |
|E-mail                              |
_________________________________________________________________
+ - Re: Re- SCM- RE- Flag ban law p (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Does your mother know you're a genious? Oh, God, what you did to
this people...
+ - Re: Hungarian Newspaper (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andras Nagy ) wrote:
: Sayuri Oshima ) wrote:

: : My Hungarian Friend will stay New York about 2 month.
: : Is there any possibility that he can get Hungarian News Paper
: : or German Magazine "Der Spiegel" in New York?
: : If you know something, please write me directory to:
:  The hungarian newspaper can be gotten in Manhattan at 82nd
:  street there is a HUngarian bookstore.
:  Cheers
:  Andras
 Well it may be 86th, anyways it's on the east side, close to
 the Hungarian restaurants, and the "magyar ha'z". If you ask
 around anyone can show you.
+ - Re: Spelling the name of the country (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ionel Leon > wrote:

>Alexander,

>...for example, if we take a look at the origin of your country,you'll be 
>surprised to know that you came from Central Asia, not Central 
>Europe,how you desperately want it.

There you have it, Alex! Told you them Romanians came from... China!
As far as your Cantacuzini ancestors are concerned, Alex, I've always
suspected they were Magyars, not Greeks! How else did they get to be
Emperors in Byzantium and Princes in the Romanian Countries?

Dorin Taranul Chinez
+ - SCM: Re:Romania vs Rumania (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

FORWARDED FROM: /mail/am/am620(#5706) From:(Liviu Iordac
he)
From: Matthew Peter Muresan

>Yes, up to the late 1950s, the generally accepted
>spelling was Rumania[...] It was even in line with the
>way many (less educated probably) Romanians have called
>themselves for centuries ("rumi^n" -- just think of some
>ballads and other such folklore).

You might not be exactly correct here. What was the
spelling used by boyar Neacsu of Cimpulung, most
certainly one of the educated Romanians of the 16th
century?

Tseara ruma~neasca~!!!

How about the famous Prof.Nae Ionescu? What was the
spelling stressed in the columns of his 1930s newspaper
"Cuvintul?"

Not Roma^n, but Ruma^n!!!

>let alone the conspicuous and undeniable roman origins
>of the Romanian nation.

Yes, but as far as linguistic is concerned "Romanian" is
derived from "romanus" via "ruma~n" and not the other way
around. The evolutionary path, as correctly as it can be
reconstructed, is

romanus-->ruma~n-->rumi^n-->roma^n

Therefore, none of the above spellings contradicts the
Latin roots of the Romanian language. As a matter of
fact, I'm not aware of any theory that denies the Latin
roots of Romanians.

>That said, the one true measure of the generally
>accepted spelling of any word is the way it shows in
>scholarly works, in news magazines, and in dailies.  I
>can testify based on a great number of books ...
>agree on Romania as the correct spelling.  In fact, a
>NEXIS search [...] never returned Rumania as a response.

Well, my search speaks the contrary (see Appendix). Let's
stress here that many of the authors that still use the
English spelling "Rumania" are Romanians, working
currently in Romania, or researchers from abroad highly
trained in matters concerning Romanian history and,
therefore, aware of many of the Romanian nationalistic
phobias.

>Finally, I am not willing (and honestly hope that nobody
>else is either) to embark upon fighting any argument
>that would assert that the Daco-Roman continuity is
>bogus.  I think arguments in favour of that abound in
>such a fashion that denying said continuity is akin to
>saying that the Holocaust hasn't taken place.

Yeah, whatever... And the most categoric argument is the
spelling "Romania," isn't it? Anyhow I must have missed
something here. What is the connection between the Latin
origin of Romanian, the Holocaust, and the so-called
"Daco-Roman(ian)" theory? Not that I really care for an
answer, but I find your reasoning quite charming.

According to an ancient Chinese document, the Moon is
made up of green cheese. Denying this is like saying that
our Hungarian fellows are in no way related to Attila.

Liviu Iordache

Appendix

 SEARCH QUERY:
 RUMANIA
        1 OF  30
 AU CROMEN-E.  GREGORI-I.  SCHASHER-A.
 TI RUMANIA UNDERGOING RADICAL CHANGE - PROSPECTS AND PROBLEMS REGARDING
    EUROPEAN INTEGRATION - GERMAN - GREGORI,I, SCHASER,A.
 SO POLITISCHE-VIERTELJAHRESSCHRIFT.  1995, JUN, V36, N2, P319-327.
    ISSN 0032-3470.
        2 OF  30
 AU SARINGER-G.  TAKACS-A.
 TI BIOLOGY AND CONTROL OF TANYMECUS-DILATICOLLIS GYLL (COL,
    CURCULIONIDAE).
 SO ACTA-PHYTOPATHOLOGICA-ET-ENTOMOLOGICA-HUNGARICA.  1994, V29, N1-2,
    P173-185.
    ISSN 0238-1249.
 AB T. dilaticollis has long been a member of the Hungarian fauna, but
    publication on its damage only appeared in 1952.  In South-Eastern
    European countries first of all in Rumania, ......
        3 OF  30
 AU LANTERMANN-ED.  HANZE-M.
 TI VALUES AND MATERIAL SUCCESS OF RESETTLERS.
 SO ZEITSCHRIFT-FUR-SOZIALPSYCHOLOGIE.  1995, V26, N1, P15-23.
    ISSN 0044-3514.
 AB A causal two-step model for the development ....
    ....The model was
    tested with a structural equation model on the basis of interview
    data from 239 resettler families from Poland, ROUMANIA...
        4 OF  30
 AU PETKOVSKI-S.
 TI ON THE PRESENCE OF THE GENUS TANYMASTIX SIMON, 1886 (CRUSTACEA,
    ANOSTRACA) IN MACEDONIA.
 SO HYDROBIOLOGIA.  1995, FEB 24, V298, N1-3, P307-313.
    ISSN 0018-8158.
 AB The genus Tanymastix Simon, 1886 is represented in Macedonia by two
    species: Tanymastix stagnalis (Linnaeus, 1758) and Tanymastix motasi
    Orghidan, 1945. ... In
    T. motasi, the original description of the species, hitherto known
    only for the Giurgiu Region in RUMANIA, is supplemented by additional
    diagnostic characteristics.
        5 OF  30
 AU TEPPNER-H.  KLEIN-E.  DRESCHER-A.  ZAGULSKIJ-M.
 TI NIGRITELLA-CARPATICA (ORCHIDACEAE ORCHIDEAE) - A RELIC ENDEMIC OF THE
    EASTERN CARPATHIANS - TAXONOMY, DISTRIBUTION, KARYOLOGY AND
    EMBRYOLOGY.
 SO PHYTON-ANNALES-REI-BOTANICAE.  1994, V34, N2, P169+.
    ISSN 0079-2047.
 AB Nigritella carpatica (Zapalowicz) Teppner, Klein & Zagulskij, comb.
    nova, is described in full detail.....
    The species is endemic in the northwestern
    part of the East Carpathian Mountains and is known from six locations
    (in RUMANIA and the Ukraine)...
        6 OF  30
 AU PFISTER-T.  WEGMULLER-U.
 TI UPPER MARINE MOLASSE, MIDDLE BURDIGALIAN NEAR BERNE, SWITZERLAND .1.
    PALAEOTAXODONTA AND PTERIOMORPHIA PRO-PARTE.
 SO ECLOGAE-GEOLOGICAE-HELVETIAE.  1994, V87, N3, P895-973.
    ISSN 0012-9402.
 AB The rich and diverse macrofauna of the Belpbergschichten
    ......... The location of the area at the transition
    from the Central Paratethys (E-Bavaria to Ukraine and RUMANIA)
        7 OF  30
 AU NASCU-HI.  COMSULEA-DI.  NIAC-G.
 TI THE DISTRIBUTION OF INORGANIC ELEMENTS BETWEEN COAL AND MINERAL
    MATTER IN RUMANIAN LIGNITE.
 SO FUEL.  1995, JAN, V74, N1, P119-123.
    ISSN 0016-2361.
        8 OF  30
 AU BOHM-H.
 TI A BACH ACADEMY IN RUMANIA.
 SO MUSIK-UND-KIRCHE.  1994, SEP-OCT, V64, N5, P303-303.
    ISSN 0027-4771.
        9 OF  30
 AU DELETANT-D.
 TI THE GREAT-POWERS AND RUMANIA, 1944-1946 - A STUDY OF THE EARLY
    COLD-WAR ERA - SAIU,L.
 SO SLAVONIC-AND-EAST-EUROPEAN-REVIEW.  1994, JUL, V72, N3, P562-563.
    ISSN 0037-6795.
       10 OF  30
 AU LAZARESCU-M.  ARDELEANU-V.  JIANU-A.
 TI STUDY ON THE REACTIVE PSYCHOSIS OCCURRED DURING THE REVOLUTION OF
    DECEMBER 1989 - TIMISOARA, RUMANIA.
 SO EUROPEAN-JOURNAL-OF-PSYCHIATRY.  1993, OCT-DEC, V7, N4, P219-228.
    ISSN 0213-6163.
       11 OF  30
 AU DELETANT-D.
 TI RUMANIA, 1866-1947 - HITCHINS,K.
 SO TLS-THE-TIMES-LITERARY-SUPPLEMENT.  1994, JUL 22, N4764, P26-26.
    ISSN 0307-661X.
       12 OF  30
 AU SNEDEKER-DC.
 TI NATIONALISM AND THE MILITARY IN THE 1990S - THE UNIQUE CASE OF
    RUMANIA.
 SO HISTORY-OF-EUROPEAN-IDEAS.  1994, MAR, V18, N2, P241-254.
    ISSN 0191-6599.
       13 OF  30
 AU PERPERE-M.
 TI THE PALEOLITHIC AND NEOLITHIC OF RUMANIA IN A EUROPEAN CONTEXT -
    FRENCH - CHIRICA,V, MONAH,D.
 SO ANTHROPOLOGIE.  1993, V97, N2-3, P542-542.
    ISSN 0003-5521.
       14 OF  30
 AU BORONEANT-V.
 TI NEW DATA ON ANTHROPOLOGICAL DISCOVERIES FROM SCHELA-CLADOVEI,
    DROBETA-TURNU SEVERIN (RUMANIA).
 SO ANTHROPOLOGIE.  1993, V97, N2-3, P511-514.
    ISSN 0003-5521.
       15 OF  30
 AU PELISEK-J.
 TI QUATERNARY SEDIMENTS IN THE AREA OF MAMAIA-SAT, RUMANIA, ON THE BLACK
    SEA SHORELINE.
 SO ANTHROPOLOGIE.  1993, V97, N2-3, P265-270.
    ISSN 0003-5521.
       16 OF  30
 AU VALOCH-K.
 TI THE INDUSTRIES OF THE MIDDLE PALAEOLITHIC SITE MAMAIA-SAT (RUMANIA)
 SO ANTHROPOLOGIE.  1993, V97, N2-3, P239-264.
    ISSN 0003-5521.
       17 OF  30
 AU URBAN-W.
 TI THE GREAT-POWERS AND RUMANIA, 1944-1946 - A STUDY OF THE EARLY
    COLD-WAR ERA - SAIU,L.
 SO JOURNAL-OF-BALTIC-STUDIES.  1993, FAL, V24, N3, P315-315.
    ISSN 0162-9778.
       18 OF  30
 AU PRADO-C.  GOMEZLOBO-P.
 TI ANTHROPOLOGY AS A PREDICTOR OF RISK FACTORS ON CARDIOVASCULAR
    DISEASES - ADOLESCENT PERIOD.
 SO COLLEGIUM-ANTROPOLOGICUM.  1993, DEC, V17, N2, P297-303.
    ISSN 0350-6134.
 AB ......
    where the morbi-mortality due to cardiovascular diseases has most
    positive.  Spain is, together with RUMANIA, the European country
    where the morbi-mortality due to cardiovascular diseases has most
    augmented.
       19 OF  30
 AU MICHELSON-PE.
 TI THE GREAT POWERS AND RUMANIA, 1944-1946 - A STUDY OF THE EARLY COLD
    WAR ERA - SAIU,L.
 SO AMERICAN-HISTORICAL-REVIEW.  1993, DEC, V98, N5, P1577-1577.
    ISSN 0002-8762.
       20 OF  30
 AU KELLOGG-F.
 TI THE GREAT POWERS AND RUMANIA, 1944-1946 - A STUDY OF THE EARLY
    COLD-WAR ERA - SAIU,L.
 SO SLAVIC-REVIEW.  1993, FAL, V52, N3, P612-613.
    ISSN 0037-6779.
       21 OF  30
 AU KIRATZI-AA.
 TI ACTIVE DEFORMATION IN THE VRANCEA REGION, RUMANIA.
 SO PURE-AND-APPLIED-GEOPHYSICS.  1993, V140, N3, P391-402.
    ISSN 0033-4553.
       22 OF  30
 AU AVRAM-E.  SZASZ-L.  ANTONESCU-E.  BALTRES-A.  IVA-M.  MELINTE-M.
    NEAGU-T.  RADAN-S.  TOMESCU-C.
 TI CRETACEOUS TERRESTRIAL AND SHALLOW MARINE DEPOSITS IN NORTHERN
    SOUTH-DOBROGEA (SE RUMANIA).
 SO CRETACEOUS-RESEARCH.  1993, JUN, V14, N3, P265-305.
    ISSN 0195-6671.
       24 OF  30
 AU FISCHER-ME.
 TI 20TH-CENTURY RUMANIA - FISCHERGALATI,S.
 SO SLAVIC-REVIEW.  1993, SPR, V52, N1, P139-140.
    ISSN 0037-6779.
       25 OF  30
 AU CETERCHI-I.
 TI INSTITUTIONAL PROBLEMS OF TRANSITION IN RUMANIA.
 SO REVUE-D-ETUDES-COMPARATIVES-EST-OUEST.  1992, DEC, V23, N4, P89-126
    ISSN 0338-0599.
       26 OF  30
 AU SIMONIC-A.  VRHOVAC-B.
 TI CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY IN EASTERN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES.
 SO INTERNATIONAL-JOURNAL-OF-CLINICAL-PHARMACOLOGY-THERAPY-AND-
    TOXICOLOGY.  1993, JUN, V31, N6, P301-308.
    ISSN 0174-4879.
 AB The current ...
    It is mainly basic in only a few
    countries (RUMANIA, Turkey,
       27 OF  30
 AU PEARTON-M.
 TI THE GREAT POWERS AND RUMANIA 1944-1946 - A STUDY OF THE EARLY
    COLD-WAR ERA - SAIU,L.
 SO EUROPE-ASIA-STUDIES.  1993, V45, N3, P567-568.
    ISSN 0038-5859.
       28 OF  30
 AU LABARONNE-D.
 TI THE RUMANIAN ECONOMY IN TRANSITION TO A MARKET ECONOMY - ECONOMIC AND
    INSTITUTIONAL REFORMS.
 SO REVUE-D-ETUDES-COMPARATIVES-EST-OUEST.  1992, JUN-SEP, V23, N2-3,
    P105-136.
       29 OF  30
 AU BIRZEA-C.
 TI THE ISSUE OF POPULATION IN RUMANIA.
 SO INTERNATIONAL-REVIEW-OF-EDUCATION.  1993, MAR, V39, N1-2, P133-136
       30 OF  30
 AU VANEV-SG.  NEGREAN-G.
 TI RAMULARIA-BISCUTELIAE, SP-NOV.
 SO MYCOTAXON.  1993, JAN-MAR, V46, JAN-, P35-36.
 AB .......
       During taxonomic investigations of some undetermined Hyphomycetous
    specimens deposited in the Mycological Herbarium of the Institute of
    Biological Sciences, Bucharest, RUMANIA (BUCM),....

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-----FORWARDER'S COMMENTS:
What does this have to do with Magyar society and culture?
+ - Re: Spelling the name of the country (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ionel Leon ) wrote:
: Alexander,
: I understand peoples who wants to be part of civilization world.
: But,to do this, you have to consider a lot of things;

	Consider things?  No.  Do things, and not do other things.  And 
I'm not going to claim that all Romanians have always fallen on the right 
side of that dividing line - but then, no other nation's citizens have 
always been civilized either.

: for example,
: if we take a look at the origin of your country,you'll be 
: surprised to know that you came from Central Asia, not Central 
: Europe,how you desperately want it.

	What?  The United States has Central Asian origins?  No doubt it 
was founded by Magyars, not Anglo-Saxons, whatever our history books 
say.  But, FYI, they don't claim that our origins are Central European.  
They quite definitely (in my time) stressed our WESTERN origins.  
Nowadays, with PCism gone mad, they stress our NONWESTERN origins.  
(You'd be supprised to find out how vital the Cambodians have suddenly 
become in the development of the United States.)

: So, my friend, try to be smart

	For me, it is so easy to be smart that, not only shall I try to 
be smart, but I shall also succeed in being smart.

	Alexander
+ - Re: Romania vs Rumania (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 wrote:
: In article >, Alexander Bossy > wrote
:

: >  The Jewish connection to the 
: >modern Romanians is frighteningly obvious: the Illyrians were the lost 
: >tribes of Israel.  You doubt it?  Well, consider the names of the two 
: >groups: Israelities -> Israelians -> Illyrians.  The similarity between 
: >the names of the two groups is way to close to be mere conincidence.  This 
: >also helps explain why the Illyrians had no culture of their own, and 
: >had to keep adopting Slavic and Hungarian ones.

: If you say so, Counsel ...

	Dear Joe:

	We on s.c.r. are very fond of you, and were concerned about your 
psychological well-being when you discovered that the rest of the world 
does not believe your nineteenth century racial [I'm using that words 
19th Cen. meaning] views.  Consequently, using my inate Romanian ability 
to create a history our of whole cloth that takes in all peoples, except 
for the Magyars, I felt obliged to come in to your rescue; we don't want 
to see the men in white coats take you away - with Dima gone, things 
would get way to boring here.  I merely brought your 19th century views 
to their full flowering.  And I assure you that the narative that I spun 
for you is far more credible than the one you wrote for us.

	I remain your most devoted friend among the Lost Tribes of Israel-Illyira.
	Alexander
+ - The Flag law and Tomi s DOCUMENTS ! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tom Angi writes with aplomb :
--------------------------------------
>My wife doesn't think your comment is amusing.

>How old are these girls?
> --------------------------------------------
Hey, no wonder she might be jelous, you dirty old ...
------------------------------

>BTW, our citizenship is not "damned."  We were both born here in the
USA.

>Go home.  Stay out of here.  You already got too much of our land.

>A 100% Magyar (and have documents dating back to the Reformation 
to prove it.)

Tom Angi
> ---------------------------------------------

OK,OK, Tomi, if you say so , since I don't really fancy you.

I don't care about those Reformation papers but.. ..
You got any documents on your wife by any chance ?
You know, new ones, Polaroid pictures of her wearing EVE's costume  ??

HAdrian  C(aligulescu)

P.S.  You wanna buy some ?

OH, by the way, that Foreign Flag law in Romania is quite ridiculous, but
not as much as what's going on here lately !
+ - Re: Spelling the name of the country (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dorin Taranul ) wrote:
: Ionel Leon > wrote:

: >Alexander,

: >...for example, if we take a look at the origin of your country,you'll be 
: >surprised to know that you came from Central Asia, not Central 
: >Europe,how you desperately want it.

: There you have it, Alex! Told you them Romanians came from... China!
: As far as your Cantacuzini ancestors are concerned, Alex, I've always
: suspected they were Magyars, not Greeks! How else did they get to be
: Emperors in Byzantium and Princes in the Romanian Countries?

	Shhhhhh! Don't let our family secret out.

	Alexander
+ - rUman_vs_rOman_tom_angi s_wife_and_other_essential_topi (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 (Gabor Barsai) wrote:
     
     >>My wife doesn't think your comment is amusing.
     
     >So why is that my problem? Her feelings are chosen by her. I can't 
     >help it if she's not pretty.
     
     [snippy]
     
     >I kinda like H(A)drian's and Cris Tomescu's posts...[snippy]
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     uh -oh....mmhhhh....aaaaaahhhhhh.......yes, YES, Y-E-S........
     
     ANYBODY CALLIN' MEEEE???????  ANYBODY TALKIN' ABOUT MEEEEE??????
     
     oh, it's you Gabor, you Don_Juan_de_las_Mujeres_Calientes......
     
     AY_AY_AY_AY_AY you wild Gaucho_de_las_Pampas.......
     
     and who's this guy, tom angi, anyway?  and why does he bring up his 
     wife in all this......must be some subliminal reason, eh??? 
     
     ......................................................................
     <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
     ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><
     ><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><>><><><
     ><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><>><><><time required to process all 
     brand new scr/scm material i have so dearly missed for the last month 
     or so><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
     >?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?>?
     !@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@!@
     ......................................................................
     ........nah, as boring as ever....................goodnight...........
     ...............<-cristian>........aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh........zzzzz
     zzzzzzzzzzz................
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     >And I don't like your condescending attitude either.
     
     So kill me. That's OK, I don't like you either.
     
     >Are you promoting pornography on the net?
     
     Not that I know of. Penthouse magazine can be obtained at the local 
     7-11. I
     haven't seen a naked girl on the "Bikini of the Day", although I admit 
     not
     looking into it very much. (Adrian, you old dog...)
     
     >How old are these girls?  Do you know how old I am?
          |                            |
      I don't know.              Why should I care?
     
     Gabor
+ - Re: *** SZALON *** #981 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

From:  (HIX SZALON)
Reply-To: "HIX SZALON" >
Newsgroups: soc.culture.magyar
Subject: *** SZALON *** #981
Date: 2 Oct 1995 19:50:38 -0500
Organization: UTexas Mail-to-News Gateway
Message-ID: >

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Issue____________: *** SZALON 981 ***
Date_____________: Mon Oct  2 00:56:03 EDT 1995
Publisher________: Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Disclaimer_______: Authors bear full responsibility for their articles.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Send-Articles-To_: >
Subscribe________: >   or >
Unsubscribe______: > or >
Help_____________: >
Supervisor_______: >
Moderator________: Talas Sandor
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
HIXWEB___________: http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/  or  http://hix.mit.edu/
ARENA____________: telnet hix.hungary.com
HUDIR____________: http://www.hungary.com/hudir/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Tartalomjegyzek:
----------------

> Felado : 
> Temakor: London V. ( 74 sor )

> Felado : 
> Temakor: Rovid valasz Kornai Andrasnak ( 59 sor )

> Felado : Eva S. Balogh
> Temakor: Public relations? ( 56 sor )

> Felado : 
> Temakor: Titkos Meciar-Horn paktum es a Duna ( 72 sor )

> Felado : Magyarok Vilagszovetsege
> Temakor: Magyar Figyelo 1995/5 ( 5 sor )

> =======================================================
> Felado : 
> Temakor: London V. ( 74 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Sep 28 10:36:56 EDT 1995 SZALON #980
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Lotyogok a varosban

Reggel Arnold bevonul a furdobe. Hosszasan zuhanyozik, az ejszaka ragadosra
izzadtuk magunkat. Vekonyak a falak, es aki figyelemmel kiseri a kiszivargo
kejes nyogeseket, sziszegeseket es fujtatasokat,  konnyen rajohet arra, hogy
eppen melyik testreszet torolgeti szarazra. Hianyzik a kave, az ujsag,
raadasul ehes es szomjas is vagyok. Nem vasaroltunk be az este, csak valami
kekszet talaltam a kezitaskam kulso zsebeben, azt ragcsalom. Pedig, ha az
emlekezetem nem csal, akkor valami csokinak is kell lennie valahol a feneken.

Otthon nem volt idom rendet rakni benne, kiboritom a tartalmat az agyra. A
kisollom amelyrol mar egy feleve lemondtam, a halom tetejere kerul. En meg
Arnoldot gyanusitottam meg az eltuntetesevel. Annyira meggyozoen erveltem,
hogy be is ismerte. Csokit nem talalok, hanem a teli selyemsalamat, egy par
megkezdett levelet, amelyeket sohasem postaztam, na meg  leveleket amelyeket
fel sem bontottam. Egy koteg,  osszeruzsozott kedvezmenyes arat hirdeto
ujsagkivagas, hajcsatok, tukor, - ketto is, - ures dezodor.

Szerintem a  rekordot Judit, Arnold nagynenje tartja. Egy egesz napot
kovalyogtunk kettesben Bukarestben. Csinos, bor kezitaskajaban iratok,
vekker, es zseblampa mellett a tizorai is elfert, amit aztan  jo etvaggyal
fogyasztottunk el a Cismigiu parkban. Del tajban elkapott az eso, amire
osszecsukhato ernyot varazsolt elo, es a ciponket a kezunkbe veve, mezitlab
kerulgettunk a holyagosra vert tocsakat a Magherun. Szarazon ertunk
Natasaekhoz. - Kavet kertek? - A bukarestiek  torok kavet foznek, amitol
csak kopkodni lehet. - Igen, - mondta angyali mosollyal Judit -
presszokavet. - Es mar huzta is elo taskajabol a ketszemelyes presszofozot.

Lepteket hallok, bezuditom az egeszet a taskamba. Arnold frissen es uden
jelenik meg az ajtoban. A derekara kotott torulkozo lassan omlik a labai
ele. Nincs idom gyonyorkodni a latvanyban, iramodok a furdobe, meg mielott
valaki mas elfoglalna.

Elkiserem Arnoldot Notting Hillig, ott elvalunk. Megbeszeljuk, hogy varok ra
delutan ottol a Yorki herceg szobra talpazatanak arnyekos oldalan.  Kora
reggel van, csak a munkaba menok jarnak az utcakon. Leulok a Regent Streeten
egy kavezo teraszan. A kave forro, az "Enrilo" tejeskave izere emlekeztet.
Ovatosan horpolgetem, kozben lapozgatok az utikonyvben. Ugy gondolom, hogy
ma vegigsetalok az Oxford Streeten, aztan felulok a metrora es elmegyek a
Towerhez. Kifizetem a kavet az olasznak, szedelozkodok.

Az Oxford Sreeten nagy a forgalom, a jardakon szamtalan nemzet  fia tolong,
bamulja a kirakatokat. A Selfridge's elott fekete limuzinbol negy, fekete
lepedobe burkolt no szall ki, a bejarat fele kacsaznak. Arcukat csinos,
fekete alarc fedi. Vajon mit vasarolnak? Feketenemut? Vagy talan ekszert.
Nem, azt biztos a ferj veszi nekik. Ami engem illet, en imadom az ekszereket.

Valamifele bizsergo joerzes tolt el, akarhanyszor a nyakamra teszek egy
igazgyongy lancot, vagy felprobalok egy brilliansokkal kirakott gyurut.
Arnold ilyenkor turelmesen megvarja amig ez az erzes elcsitul, es szepen
karonfogva, mint valami sulyos  beteget, kivezet az uzletbol. Most, hogy
egyedul vagyok, annyit alldogalok az ekszeruzlet  kirakata elott amig
akarok. Szemem sarkabol latom amint egy jokepu fiatalember, a kavezo
teraszan jol megnez maganak.  Biztos az atlatszo szoknyam miatt. Bevallom
jot tesz az onbizalmamnak.

Ebbol a szempontbol imadok Franciaorszagban turistaskodni. Figyelni az
izmos, fiatal ferfitesteket, turni a szemtelen pillantasokat. Stockholmban
nincs ilyenben reszem. Raadasul, mostanaban mind nehezebben tudom elhitetni
magammal, hogy kizarolag a hideg eghajlat okozza a kozombosseguket.

Megkeresem a terkepen, a British Museum-ot, illetve a  Great Russel
Streetet. Probalom betajolni magam, A jardan ket fiatalember kinalja harsany
hangon az arujat, valami piperecikknek nezem. - A boltban otven fontba
kerul, mi tizert adjuk. Garantaltan lopott aru! - Gyulnek az emberek, van
aki harmat vesz. Kozepkoru, fekete ferfi all mellettem, csovalja a fejet.
Osszenevetunk, kicsit kulonbeknek erezzuk magunkat. Kell neha az is az
embernek.

A British Muzeum olyan mint minden mas muzeum. Itt is majdnem minden
"garantaltan lopott holmi". Nem is idozok sokat benne, csak a a mumiakat
nezem meg kozelebbrol. Sietek, mert ma meg a Towert is meg akarom nezni.
Kivulrol, ugyanis nincs nagyobb gusztusom bortonlatogatashoz, meg akkor sem,
ha mar regota felhagytak az iparral.


> =======================================================
> Felado : 
> Temakor: Rovid valasz Kornai Andrasnak ( 59 sor )
> Idopont: Fri Sep 29 18:54:04 EDT 1995 SZALON #981
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Kedves Szalon & Andras!

> 1. Az IMF de1moniza1la1sa. Az a szomoru1 helyzet hogy Magyarorsza1g to2bbet
> ko2lt(o2tt) mint amit produka1l(t), koraszu2lo2tt jo1le1ti a1llam, stb.
> Ezen va1ltoztatni kulcske1rde1s, ami teljesen fu2ggetlen atto1l hogy kik
> propona1lja1k az "A" megolda1st e1s kik a "B" megolda1st. Megva1rom, hogy
> Na1ndi ezzel eddig egyete1rt-e, azta1n ha igen akkor majd innen folytatjuk.

Lehet, hogy igy van, de akkor annak a tobb fogyasztasnak a fo felelose
a fekete gazdasag hivalkodo ujgazdag retege, azon belul is elsosorban a
szervezett alvilag. Elsodlegesen ezeket kellene megfogni annak a celnak
az erdekeben, hogy javuljon a koltsegvetes helyzete, es nem az egeszsegugyet,
szocialpolitikat, oktatast. Alapveto aranytevesztesben vannak Bokrosek
akkor, amikor semmit sem tesznek a fekete gazdasag (ide tartoznak a
120,000.-Ft eves jovedelem utan adozo vallalkozok is) ellen, pontosabban
azert, hogy egy pici reszt ok is meltoztassanak vallalni a teherviselesbol!

(...a koltsegvetesi egyensuly...)
> helyrea1lli1ta1sa1nak szu2kse1gesse1ge1ben egyete1rte1sre jussunk, azta1n

OK, abban egyetertunk.

> hogy ezt hogyan lehet a legjobban megvalo1si1tani, pl. a ha1ziu1r
> lelo2ve1se1vel (halottnak nem kell fizetni) azt majd legko2zelebb.

Nem is rossz gondolat. :-)

> itt minden baj
> (esetu2nkben: nadra1gszi1jmeghu1za1s, Bokros-politika) okozo1ja. Szerintem
>
> (a) ez a politika alapja1ban helyes, ezt nem ta1madni kell hanem javi1tani,

Totalisan helytelen a fent emlitettek miatt.

> hiszen a koali1cio1s mega1llapoda1s e1rtelme1ben a gazdasa1gi
> kulcspozi1cio1k teljes ege1szu2kben szocialista ke1zben vannak, ellente1tben
> pl. a mu3velo3de1su2ggyel amie1rt lehet Fodort, teha1t csakis e1s
> kiza1ro1lag az SZDSZ-t szidni, ahogy a ko2zbiztonsa1ge1rt Kuncze1t, stb.  Az
> SZDSZ felelo3s bizonyos dolgoke1rt, bizonyos ara1nyban: azt hogy ez az
> ara1ny tu1lmegy a szavazatok/manda1tumok a1ltal meghata1rozott ara1nyon azt
> te1telesen bizonyi1tani ke1ne. Ku2lo2no2sen a gazdasa1gpolitika teru2lete1n,
> ahol az SZDSZ-nek egyetlen miniszte1riuma, de me1g egy fo3hato1sa1ga sincs,
> ez nem lesz ko2nnyu3: e1rdeklo3de1ssel va1rom Na1ndi e1rveit.

Az teljesen formalis erv Andras, ami a tarcak elosztasara hivatkozik.
A jelenlegi gazdasagpolitikank 100%-ig a Penzugykutato Rt. muhelyeben
keszult, amely Rt. koztudottan az SZDSZ leanyvallalata.

> Ve1gu2l megjegyzem hogy tiszta1n szocialista e1rdek azt la1ttatni, hogy az
> MSZP a good cop e1s az SZDSZ a bad cop. Egy ro2hej ahogy az ellenze1k ennek
> bedo3l, e1s ma1r most megalapozza1k azt hogy az MSZP a va1laszta1sok elo3tt
> egy fe1l e1vvel felru1gja a koali1cio1t, mindent az SZDSZ-re kenjen, e1s
> nyerjen u1jabb ne1gy e1vet. Ugye az ellenze1k nem is tagadhatja majd majd
> hogy mindenro3l az SZDSZ tehet, az MSZP felelo3sse1ge minima1lis, hiszen o3k
> maguk mondta1k...

Egyetertek.

    Udvozlettel: Nandi

> =======================================================
> Felado : Eva S. Balogh
> E-mail : 
> Temakor: Public relations? ( 56 sor )
> Idopont: Sat Sep 30 08:04:07 EDT 1995 SZALON #981
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Olajos Imre leirasa az Iliescu interjurol a Press Clubban igen erdekes volt.
Koszonom, mivel en nem lattam. Imre a kovetkezoket mondta ezzel kapcsolatban:

>Viszont hadd mondjak el par dolgot Ion Iliescu elnok VEDELMEBEN! Ha jol
>emlekszem, amikor Horn Gyula Amerikaban jart, a kutya sem kozvetitette itt
>Amerikaban a sajtotajekoztatojat (ha volt ilyen egyaltalan). Tovabba ha jol
>tudom, akkor Horn ur meg sem tud nyikkani angolul. Iliescu elnok VEGIG
tolmacs
>nelkul, rettenetesen tort angolsaggal, de ANGOLUL mondta el a mondanivalojat
>es a mondokajat! Valamint azt is Iliescu elnok pozitivumanak tudom be, hogy
>sokszor volt olyan, hogy valaszolt a kerdesre, de NEM HAGYTA ABBA a valaszt
>addig, amig el nem mondott mindent, ami az adott pillanatban az eszebe
jutott!
>Magyarul ontotta magabol a szot (csunyabbat is tudnek erre mondani, de ez
itt
>egy moderalt forum).
>
>Egyszoval Iliescu tud valamit, amit mi magyarok nem nagyon: tudja, mit
jelent
>az, hogy "public relations (PR)", azaz hogy hogyan jelenjen meg a
nyilvanossag
>elott, s hogy hogyan prezentalja magat es az eszmeit, ideait. Ez az, ami
>nagyon hianyzik a magyar politikusok nagy tobbsegebol. (A Torgyan-fele
>demagogia NEM PR!)
>
>Csak ennyit szerettem volna kozolni. Nagyon ritkan irok politikai temaban,
de
>amit tegnap lattam a C-SPAN 2-n, az nagyon kihozott a sodrombol. Ugyanakkor
>nagyon is gondolkodora kesztetett.
>
>Udvozlettel,
>________________________________________________________________________
>LaLa (Imre Olajos, Jr.)
>
Eloszor is, Imrenek teljesen igaza van. Egy sort sem lehetett olvasni Horn
washington latogatasarol peldaul a New York Timesban, vagy barmi mas nagyobb
amerikai lapban. Egy interneti ismerosom szerint volt valami beszede Hornnak
a Press Club-ban, amit o a National Public Radion hallott New York allamban.
En ellenben nem, Connecticutban.

Amikor meghallottam egy es fel evvel ezelott, hogy Horn oroszon es
szerb-horvaton kivul egy szot sem tud egyetlen nyugati nyelven, meg voltam
dobbenve. Kulonosen akkor, amikor azt olvastam a HVG-ben, hogy valami svajci
konferencian OROSZUL adott elo! Annyi esze sincs, hogy tudna, hogy jobb lett
volna akkor mar magyarul beszelni?

Ami "public relations" illeti, a magyarok azt sem tudjak, hogy mirol
beszelsz, amikor PR-rol van szo. De mar 80 evvel ezelott sem tudtak, es azota
sem tanultak meg. En allandoan azt hajtogatom, hogy a magyarok nem ertenek
mas nepek nyelven--tisztara mindegy, hogy hany nyelvet sajatitottak el.
Egyszeruen nem ertik mas nepek gondolkodasmodjat. A csehek ellenben, hogy egy
masik kelet-europai peldaval jojjek elo, nagyon tudnak a nyugat nyelven
beszelni es nem csak azert mivel Klaus angolsaga igen jo--hallottam a
National Public Radion. Ok tudjak, hogy a nyugat mit akar hallani--mi nem!

Balogh Eva

> =======================================================
> Felado : 
> Temakor: Titkos Meciar-Horn paktum es a Duna ( 72 sor )
> Idopont: Sat Sep 30 12:36:04 EDT 1995 SZALON #981
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Tisztelt Olvasom!

Szerdan, szeptember 27-en, a new yorki konzulatus nyilvanossaga elott
megkerdeztem kulugyminiszterunket, Kovacs Laszlot, hogy:

1) Tud-e arrol, hogy James Crowford, a hagai perben a magyar felet kepviselo
ugyved, (aki, ha szabad kezet kapna, biztosan megnyerne szamunkra a pert),
Budapestrol olyan utasitast kapott, hogy a pert kezelje ugy, mint egy
epitkezesi szerzodes paragrafusainak betartasat vagy megszegeset merlegelo
vitat, s ne foglalkozzon annak hatarsertesi vonatkozasaival, az ENSZ, a
Parisi bekeszerzodes, s a hatar-folyokra vonatkozo nemzetkozi
megegyezesekkel, melyek egy nemzet teruleti integritasa megsertesenek
tekintik egy hatarfolyo eltereleset.

2) Ha ilyen utmutatast kapott az ugyved, ugy annak koze van-e, az ezidaig
titokban tartott Horn-Meciar paktumhoz? Nem gondolja, hogy ez torvenyellenes,
elvegre utkozik a Parlament korabbi hatarozataval? Nem lenne kotelessege
errol tajekoztatni a koalicios partner SZDSZ-t, melynek olyan prominens
tagjai, mint Vargha Janos, a Duna Kor vezetoje, evek ota harcolnak az ellen,
hogy a szlovak es magyar vizugyi lobby titokban meggegyezhessen, s
megakadalyozhassak a biztos hagai magyar gyozelmet.

A Kovacs kulugyminiszter valaszaban kifejtette, hogy:
1) Nem tud ilyen utasitasrol. (Ez azert volt varatlan, mert azt peldaul
pontosan tudta, hogy melyik honapban, hany dollaros szamlat nyujtott be az
ugyved, s az ember azt gondolna, hogy az orszag teruleti integritasa talan
ennel megis fontosabb -LB.)

2) Kovacs Laszlo arra tett, nem is burkolt celzast, hogy szerinte mi ezt a
pert nem nyerhetjuk meg, sot lehet, hogy meg nekunk kell majd karteritest
fizetnunk Szlovakianak.  (Ezt hallva felvetodott bennem a kerdes: helyes-e,
hogy a magyar diplomacia vezetoje ilyen teves velemenyt hisz vagy terjeszt?
Vajjon Meciar is azt allitana hasonlo helyzetben, hogy szlovakia fogja
elvesziteni a pert? Az is felvetodott bennem, hogy milyen kepe lehet a
nemzetkozi jogrendrol annak, aki azt hiszi, hogy azt itelheti a hagai birosag
karterites fizetesere, akinek hatarfolyojat eltulajdonitottak - LB)

3) Kocsak szerint a per lefolytatasat az angol ugyved azert erolteti, mert
ehhez anyagi erdek fuzi, mig a magyar erdek az lenne, hogy egyezzunk meg a
birosagon kivul, s igy ne kelljen ugyvedi dijat fizetnunk. (Eloszor az jutott
az eszembe, hogy vajjon mit gondol Kovacs ur a hallgatoi szellemi
kepessegeirol, hogy parhuzamot mer vonni olyan szamok kozott melyekben 9
nulla van es olyanok kozt, melyben 4? Aztan az is eszembe jutott, hogy talan
azert van most a szlovak felnek olyan nagy kiegyezesi kedve, azert kot Meciar
titkos paktumot Horn miniszterelnokkel, mert erzi, hogy ha lefolytatjak a
pert, ugy elveszitik azt, s akkor, hatarfolyonk visszaterelesen kivul meg
dollar-milliardos karteritest is kell fizetniuk -LB.)

4) Kovacs Laszlo elismerte, hogy szuletett egy titkos megegyezes, s azt is,
hogy a ket orszag vizugyisei targyaljak annak reszleteit, de arra a kerdesre,
hogy a megegyezes tartalmazza-e a Hagaban ismertetett Kiegyezesi Tervunk
alap-elemeit, a Duna visszatereleset, es a vizelosztas magyar felsegteruletre
helyezeset, nem valaszolt. (Mivel a vilag kornyezetvedo szervezetei, s Dennis
Hayes sajtokampanyanak koszonhetoen, a vilag kozvelemenye is tamogatja mar a
Kiegyezesi Tervet, s mivel a Hagai Birosag elott nyeresre allunk, bunos
felelotlenseg es egyben a magyar parlament korabbi donteset serto
torvenytelen lepes is lenne a per feladasa. -LB)

Tisztelt olvasom! Nagyon kerem Ont, s Onon keresztul a magyar kozvelemenyt, a
magyar sajtot, hogy ne mint nezo, ne mint az esemenyeknek csak megfigyeloje
kovesse a hagai fejlemenyeket, hanem lepjen On is palyara, irjon
kepviseloinek, irjon a sajtoban, vegyen reszt a Duna elterelesenek 3-ik
evfordulojan, oktober 22-en a bosi tuntetesen (iden az otthoniak
szervezeseben), majd oktober 23-an a Parlamenthez is vigye el a titkos
paktumok es hazank integritasanak visszaallitasa mellett szolo, s a hagai
per lefolytatasa melletti plakatjait. Magyarorszag az On hazaja, a Duna az On
hatarfolyoja, azt megvedeni az On kotelessege is. Kerjuk a kormanyt, hogy
betartsa a Parlament donteset, s kitartson az 1997-es varhato gyozelemig
Hagaban. Gondoljon arra, hogy csak azt veszithetjuk el, amit mi magunk
feladunk, s mi a Dunat nem adjuk fel, nem adhatjuk fel. Segitsen On is!
 - Liptak Bela.

> =======================================================
> Felado : Magyarok Vilagszovetsege
> E-mail : 
> Temakor: Magyar Figyelo 1995/5 ( 5 sor )
> Idopont: Sun Oct  1 10:04:19 EDT 1995 SZALON #981
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

A Magyar Figyelo 1995/5 szama megtekintheto az MVSZ homepage-en:

http://www.hungary.com/mvsz/mf9505/

Magyarok Vilagszovetsege


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