Istvan Szucs wrote:
> 
> In article >,
> Adalbrert Albu  > wrote:
> | Stop defamation of Nation and Church on taxpayers
> |
> | Please stop the  defamation of Nation and Church by the Hungarian
> | Government.
> |
> | If the article by Andras Pellionisz is correct then this is a turning
> | moment of my understanding of the entire present. I then understand
> | the attitude of the Hungarian elected government to the grave
> | situation of the minorities within the neighboring countries.
> |
> | I have only one question. Does the government or does not represent
> | the opinion of the majority. It would be important to find out if a
> | sizable portion of the electorate subscribes to the denigration of the
> | national past.
> 
> I have not responded because my feelings regarding this
> issue are still forming. I do think from the excerpts
> Pellionisz provided that the play is unneccessarrily
> hurtful, and disgusting. By unneccessary I mean that I fail
> to see what point Spiro was trying to make that would
> justify the hyrtfulness and disgustingness of ht excerpts
> provided, so as far as the piece itself goes I found the
> outrage appropriate, although I will have to read the piece
> in full to make a final determination.
> 
> At the same time I have seen other controversial pieces of
> art that some found offensive but their artistic value -in
> my opinion- warranted tolarating them, and even the public
> funding they received. Such examples are some of Serrano's
> works, most recognized of them is the piss Christ, or works
> by Maplethorpe.
> IN Hungary historically Attila Jozsef, and Ady were
> considered to be in the same category as Spiro is put in
> now, and I would very much hate to allow myself to be a
> "Horger Antal ur", not to mention Khomeini (vs Rushdie) or
> whoever vs Dante.
> 
> One more point to make however is that what Pellionisz is
> attacking is the award of a prize. Spiro's play was selected
> not by government or government authorities but by a jury,
> therefore Pellionisz' disagreement is with them, although -
> as always, and often unfounded he is trying to blame the
> present government for the award.
> 
> Istvan

It is true that historically A. Jozsef and Ady were in the "same 
category" as Spiro. But both Jozsef and Ady were gentlemen in comparison 
with Spiro. Spiro is closer to Allen Ginsburg and Maplethorp. His is a 
gutter language, thoroughly tasteteless. That alone should make him 
undigestable. While, legally of course, he has his rights ... I would, as 
I hope every reader with a sense of decency, would through his work if I 
had a copy of it- on the dungheap where it deserves to be.

And, alas, it is true that a non-government appointed jury selected his 
work for reward, the government should have had some sense and not to 
accept the jury's taste for reward. It appears that in Hungary, as in the 
USA -or around the enlightened West- juries are a self-selected 
minorities, with a taste for the abstract, or the degenerate and 
the shocking in all areas of artistic endeavor. And this 
minority-representing juries often award the prize to the Maplethorps, 
Ginsbergs, and Spiros. And often these prizes come from the taxpayers 
money.

While Mr. Pellionisze's request to Gonz is unlikely to lead to the 
cancellation of this unfortunate decision it would serve as a token of 
protest. And in that sense I would gladly associate my name with that.
For Spiro there would've been ways to criticise the Hungarian past, the 
Church, the kings of Hungary, etc. And he would, in all probability, have 
been more effective. His "way", I am sure, has boomeranged. A minority of 
perverts and simpletons might have applauded. But hopefully the majority 
has been paying attention.

Laszlo Horvath

T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>
>Szerintetek a Spiro milyen nemzetisegu ?

Tippeljunk.  Tied az elso doba's, Tamas. ;-)

PJ

First Balogh writes "in Hungarian, we never call 1956
Szabadsagharc (Freedomfight)". Later, once both her
lie is completely refuted and her defamation is
condemned as harshly as "Holocaust deniers" are never
let go without suffering ample consequence of their
callous defamation, she is trying to talk herself out
from her "Freedomfight denial" - smelling like rose.

Well, the bloom is off the rose. And emanates a foul smelling
odor. She can rest assured that her "Freedomfight denial"
will get exactly the kind of treatment from volunteers
of Hungarian Antidefamation League as "Holocaust deniers"
deserve from respective other organizations.

First, her s(l)ick twist of her story that "she said
IN HER EVERYDAY CONVERSATIONS they don't use the
Hungarian term for Freedomfight" is a LIE. This is
NOT what she wrote. This lie is only her stupid EXCUSE.

And stupid it is, since elsewhere she confessed that
she was a believer Marxist in 1956 and having escaped 56
she devoted herself to the study of Marxism anew once in
the Free World! Well, we can easily surmise what kind of
"everyday conversations" she led with her camerades who
started to flee Hungary in droves once genuine Freedomfighters
took command in Budapest' streets!

We also know (from her!), that for the close to 40 years since
the Revolution and Freedomfight she lived abroad, and started
to pay renewed attention to Hungary only since her
communist comrade Mr. Horn (butcher of Freedomfighters of 56)
assumed power in 1994. She is the most ardent supporter of Mr.
Horn's regime on Internet ever since! It gives you an idea what
kind of "everyday conversations" she engaged in for over
40 years with her likenesses!

To illuminate the DOUBLE STANDARD that she is now begging
for to escape dire consequences of her defamation, imagine
how defamation leagues would respond to a transparent lie
of a "Holocaust denier", who escaped Germany in 1945, and
lives in seclusion in Paraguay, and now posts an Internet-list
claiming "In German, we never say that there was a Holocaust
in WWII".

When antidefamation league fiercely protests, the nazi,
Eva Balogh style, wants to escape by such outrageous excuse:

"I did not say some don't call it Holocaust. Of course it is
possible that some organizations or individuals use the
term Holocaust. I only said 'in everyday conversations in nazi
hideouts, when we remember those days, we (kapo Evita Balogh
& Comp) we never say it was Holocaust. We always use the term
Endlosung."

Do you think the antidefamation league would happily accept
such profoundly offensive excuse or would surely take it as
"insult to injury"?

T.M.Lutas > wrote:
>
>Sorry, I've seen Pat move away from focusing on traditional right wing 
>anti-communism to nativism and a certain american form of protectionism 
>that is scary to behold. I'd take the National Review crowd as a better 
>example of people who still talk about and fight communism. 

Well, I don't think Pat abandoned his anti-communist views; he just
focused on things he thought more important to American voters. I, too,
don't like his views on trade and other issues, but I think he sensed
correctly the middle class' frustration over the slipping real wages
and the realization that their children will have a taugher time to get
a new home than their parents had.  All this while seeing top management
voting itself obscene salaries and bonuses even during downsizing.
>
>Scary, isn't it. Well, now that you've decided to join me B-) maybe I 
>can win you over on other subjects...

Dream on! ;-)

>Seriously, I'm surprised that this thread hasn't drawn other people to it. 

Maybe I need to post something "controversial" again, eh?  I'll bet that
they will join that thread! 

>Perhaps setting the moral foundation doesn't trip some of our own 
>"communism isn't so bad" crowd. It's when you go beyond theory to practical 
>measures that people seem to get hysterical. Is there a practical limit 
>on hypocrisy? I've yet to see any evidence.

I wonder what your estimate is of the "typical" Romanian Internet
contributor/reader.  I wonder how the profile of that typical
Internetter compares to the typical Hungarian one.  I've seen a gradual
shift of the typical Hungarian Internetter over the last 6/7 years from
mostly the children of the former Communist era elite (who were the
first in seizing Western study opportunities) to a more representative
composition of the Hungarian middle class today.  However, due to their
earlier opportunities, the children of the former elite (some of us
fondly call the "Kadar Jugend"), are in better positions than the late
comers.  BTW, don't expect me to prove any of this with statistics; it's
only my educated guess.  Members of the "Kadar Jugend" are usually
very careful not to hint anything about their background, but they are
still fairly easily recognized by their views.  They go to elaborate
lengths arguing against or ridiculing any suggestion of calling former
communist to account for their deeds.  When that fails, they also manage
somehow to throw in the the red herring of anti-semitism.  I must admit
they have a perfect score record so far: not one former communist
official was put on trial yet!

So how is this on the Romanian side?  Of course I know of the few mild
sentences against some Ceausescu henchmen, but what about the typical
Romanian Internetter's profile?

Joe Pannon

>Nadie contestaba, porque nadie habla este idioma Espanol, entre los 
>Hungaros.
>Si quieres algo, escribe en Ingles, o si puedes Hungaro.
>
>Senki nem valaszol neked, mert nem nagyon beszelik ezt a Spanyol nyelvet 
>a Magyarok kozott.
>
>Ha akarsz valamit, Angolul irjj, vagy ha tudsz Magyarul. 
>
>Dr. Laszlo 
>

Azt tudom, hogy csaknem senki nem beszelik a spanyol nyelvet, te beszels. De
irtam is angolul es nincs kerdes volt. Miert?

Csak akarom tudni milyen hetilap (is that a correct translation for newspaper?,
I´m still to eretlen in this language) van a Magyarorszagon es hogyan 
kaphatom. Szeretem olvasni magyarul es szuksegem van valamire, konyvet,
hetilapot, stb.

Koszonom szepen!

So, more or less, what I tried to say is that I´m learning Hungarian and I´m
interested in material (newspapers, magazines chiefly, and also novels and 
readers) so as to read and improve (well, I´m just beginning, but given there
are not much hungarians in Barcelona, I´ll begin by written Hungarian) my
level.
I´ll be very pleased if someone can give me names of magazines or newspapers
and
if possible, also and address for contacting them. Also, if someone knows of
bookstores that export books to other countries, please, let me know.
Even, if someone plans to come to Spain (I  know that now some hungarians come
to Spain to spend their holidays), more exactly to Costa Brava (Lloret, Tossa
de
Mar, Calella, ...) and can bring me some material (which I´ll religiously
pay, persze) also, e-mail me, please.

Thank you very much. 

PS: By the way, hogyan te beszels spanyolul, Dr. Laszlo. Hol tanultad?

Szia Laszlo!

First of all, thanks for replying. Of course I had to reply to that insect
called Megorov. Although maybe I didn´t had to do because he was only trying
to provoque, and unfortunately nowadays, provocations are out everyday bread.
I suppose the Eurocopa 96 won´t get much attention in the United States, 
soccer has no the same status as in Europe. Anyway, what I wanted to explain
to you is that last weekend there was the match England-Spain at quarterfinals.
And what did English press do (not all the press, of course), they organized
a campaign against Spain, Toros (Bullfighting, which I don´t like, either),
paella (a typical Spanish dish), and other things. So what´s the point in
doing all this, when every summer lots of english people come to Spain for
holidays? It´s all the same, provocation! Better not paying attention.

Anyway, I like Hungarian language and Hungarian culture. And I would like to
know more about it, and what that Megorov wrote is rubbish, as rubbish is
racism, xenophobia and all that stuff, against Hungarians, against Chechens,
against Spaniards, against everyone.

My native language is Spanish (we speak Spanish at home, also French because
my mother is French), but I speak Catalan since I began going to school, i.e.
since I was 4 more or less.

Also it´s true that I have a Basque name (Joan Carles is my first name,
composed
as you see) Azkoitia. It has to be written with ´k´ because Basque lacks the
´c´, but due to Franco´s dictatorship and his intentions to suppress other
cultures than spanish (Catalan, Basque, Galician) it was ´Spanishized´.
My christian name is Juan in Spanish, but Joan in Catalan. I like both. In
Basque it would be Jon.

But, how do you know all this about Spain, Basque country and Catalan?

On the other hand, I have already contacted with hix.mit.edu via netscape, but
the problem is that it is very slow, although interesting. However, I can´t
connect to internet from home, so I have to go the university. That´s why I
would like to have written  material to learn more about Hungarian and
hungarians.

Inkabb szeretnem irni magyarul de nem tudom enough. Next time, I expect to
write in Hungarian.

Koszonom szepen, a viszontlatasra, Laszlo.

Joan Carles Azkoitia

Tisztelt Szucs (Istvan) Ur!

Irja:
>Nem .. Toth Jozsef csak bevallottan Hungarista, es a 24 
>oraban melynek webmastere Szalasit vedik. De fajgyulolo. az
>nem.

Hat, en nem tom. Tudja, en mar csak akkor hiszek el valamit, ha magam
latom. Akkor se elsore. Ne haragudjon, de odahaza mar egyesek az Orban Viktort
is Hitlerhez hasonlitgatjak. Hat az en szamomra ez a fasisztazas 
egyszeruen teljesen hitelet vesztette. Egyszeruen teszek ra. Nem erdekel.
Szamomra elsosorban azokat minositi, akik fasisztaznak, nem pedig azokat,
akikrol allitjak. Igy minden bizonnyal sokkal kisebb hibat kovetek el,
mint ellenkezokepp. Mert az a nehany igazi fasiszta legfeljebb egy kicsit
jobb pozicioba kerul, mint megilletne. Viszont az a rengeteg nem kevesbe jobb 
bolsevik meg elveszti egyik leghatasosabb fegyveret.

Van azert ezen kivul is nehany problema az allitasaival.

1. Toth Jozsef-bol a Budapesti telefonkonyvben van legalabb egy oldal.
Masreszt, nem is budapesti lakosrol van szo feltetlenul, es allitom, a 
budapesti Toth Jozsefek 1/3-anak ha van telefonja. Nem latom, hogy uaz 
a szemely volna. 
1'. Tobben, nem akarok ide egy hosszu listat irni, meg vannak gyozodve rola
(en nem!), hogy az osszes gyakori-nevu szerzo a siliconvalley.com domainrol
egy es ugyanaz a szemely. Szoval itt egy komoly problema van. 2. Nem tom
mi az a 24 ora, es hogy ott vedik-e Szalasit, ill. On szerint mit takar ez
a kifejezes. Ilyen allitasokat _barmelyik_ cenzurazatlan forumrol lehet
terjeszteni. Es ha oda nem irnanak _tenyleg_ szelsoseges elemek, akkor
meg mindig lehet oda kuldeni iromanyokat (hamis cimekrol) lejaratas vegett.
3. Nem latom at, hogy adott esetben a webmaster mennyiben felelos a
megjelent anyagokert. 4. Nem vagyok tisztaban azzal, hogy On hogy definialja
mi az hogy 
fajgyulolo. Ez meglehetosen ellentmondasos dolog manapsag. PC-s agyu 
liberalisaink szerint mindenki fajgyulolo, aki nem kozibuk tartozik.

A NEMZET ujrapublikalja a liberalis OMRI digest-et, a jobbkozep BLA-t, gyakran 
ad le cikkeket, melyek az Uj Mao-ban, Demokrata-ban, Nepszabadsagban,
Magyar Hirlapban, Magyar Forumban Uj Ember-ben, Szombat-ban, Cibulak-ban meg a 
jo eg tudja meg miben megjelenik. Meg csak azt se lehet mondani hogy csak 
konzervativ anyagokat ad le, mivel a leadott anyagok tobbsege nem az.
Az, hogy ezek az ujsagok odahaza nincsenek betiltva, azt jelenti, hogy mukodesu
k
torvenyes, es meg a Lex Goncz nevu justismord tesztjet is kialljak.
Marpedig asszerint olyen anyagok, melyet On allit _nem jelenhetnek meg_.

A NEMZET tobbszor leadott mar olyan cikkeket, melyeket kicenzuraztak mas, 
_es nem csak konzervativ_ lapkbol.
Tobb neves szerzoje van. Koztuk Lovas Istvan (Torgyan egyik tanacsadoja), es 
idonkent Csapody Bela, Jeszenszky Geza es masok is megeresztenek egy egy irast,
 
melyet kizarolagosan a NEMZET-nek szantak.

Bizonyara az a "baj", hogy a szerkesztobizottsagnak a demokracia es 
sajtoszabadsag felfogasa lenyegesen kulonbozik attol, amit az atkosban 
megszoktunk. Tovabba lehet tapasztalni, hogy egy jo nagy lyukat ut az
ismet totalissa valt hazai media hegemonian, raadasul pontosan a legfontosabb
reteget, az ertelmiseget megcelozva. Ez nyilvan rengeteg ember erdeket serti. 
Dehat ilyen az elet. Talaljanak ki valami jobbat ellene ill helyette.

Tovabba, itt szeretnem megjegyezni, hogy lehet, hogy igaza van, es Toth Jozsef 
(az, akirol szo van), fajgyulolo, Hungarista etc. De kerdem en, On ugyan ilyen
szigoru a HVG, 168 ora, Magyar Hirlap, Nepszabadsag etc munkatarsaival szemeben
?
On nem veszi a lapokat es rendszeresen ir tiltakozo cikkeket itt az 
SCM-en mert szerkesztoik kozt volt AVH-sok (magyar es kereszteny ellenesek) 
dolgoznak? Vagy On kettos mercet alkalmaz?
[Itt szeretnem felhivni a figyelmet minden olvaso szamara, hogy ezek _kerdesek_
 
nem pedig allitasok.]

Nyilvan ugy van vele, mint a legtobb ember, hogy nem erdekli, hogy mi az
_igazi_ politikai velemenye a szerkesztonek. A lapokat nem azert veszi,
rendeli meg stb, hanem mert tetszik onnek, vagy legalabbis olvashatonak tartja.
Es asszem, ez a lenyeg. 

A NEMZET a magyar ertelmiseg jobbik oldalanak _alapigenyet elegiti ki_, melyre
ugy tunik, a jelenlegi politikai helyzetben _nincs mas mod_.
Igy ha van esze a magyar ertelmiseg jobbik felenek, akkor nem nezi, kiktol
jon ez a lap. 
Masreszt, aki tovabbra is moralizalni akar, annak csak annyit mondok:
__Nem kellett volna szetzuzni a polgarosodo konzervativ kozeposztaly 
lapjait es egyeb foumait__. Ezt (fokent az SZDSZ) megtettek. Nincs mas
valasztasunk gyakorlatilag, akik nem kepesek melyliberalis lapokat olvasni,
legfeljebb termeszetgyogyasz kura reszekent, hanytatoszer gyanant.
Az a helyzet, hogy azzal elunk, amink van.
Az, hogy ez esetleg segiti nehany nem helyen valo elem nepszeruseg novekedeset?
Hat, a dolgoknak aruk van. Mindenert fizetni kell. Antall nem tetszett, partjat
 
tonkretettek, kapjak majd Torgyant. Ot es partjat nehezebb lesz tonkretenni.

Igy vagyok a NEMZET-tel is. Tonkretettek a Magyar Nemzetet? Lett belole
NEMZET. Pesti Hirlapot? Lett belole Demokrata. MDF-et? Lett belole FKGP es MIEP
.
Es meg lehet sorolni. Az egy illuzio, hogy ezek az erok nem kerulnek hatalomba
elobb vagy utobb.
Az ui. ekvivalens lenne a Mo-i demokracia megszunesevel, nem leven mas, aki
kepes lenne levaltani a jelenlegi kormanyt. Es akkor mar nem az Antall fele uri
 
modorban folyik majd az egyre  elkerulhetetlenebbe valo  rendcsinalas.

Attol tartok, ha tonkre teszik a NEMZET-et, akkor lesz belole 24 ora.
Ez az uzenet asszem eleg vilagos az SZDSZ es PC agyuaknak. Jo lesz gondolkozni.

Tisztelettel,

O'dor Tibor

In article >,
TU Vienna  > wrote:
| Tisztelt Szucs (Istvan) Ur!
| 
| Irja:
| >Nem .. Toth Jozsef csak bevallottan Hungarista, es a 24 
| >oraban melynek webmastere Szalasit vedik. De fajgyulolo. az
| >nem.
| 
| Hat, en nem tom. Tudja, en mar csak akkor hiszek el valamit, ha magam
| latom. Akkor se elsore. Ne haragudjon, de odahaza mar egyesek az Orban Viktor
t
| is Hitlerhez hasonlitgatjak. Hat az en szamomra ez a fasisztazas 
| egyszeruen teljesen hitelet vesztette.

Akkor csak nezzen korul 24 ora archivumaban aminek Toth
Jozsef a webmaster-e. http://www.autobahnos.com/~jtoth

Egyszeruen teszek ra. Nem erdekel.
| Szamomra elsosorban azokat minositi, akik fasisztaznak, nem pedig azokat,
| akikrol allitjak. 

Ertem.. namost a kommunistazokrol ugyanez viszont nem
mondhato el?
Nem kene azert nemileg azt is tekintetbe venni hog akirol
mondjak esetleg veletlenul tenyleg fasiszta?


Igy minden bizonnyal sokkal kisebb hibat kovetek el,
| mint ellenkezokepp. Mert az a nehany igazi fasiszta legfeljebb egy kicsit
| jobb pozicioba kerul, mint megilletne. Viszont az a rengeteg nem kevesbe jobb
 
| bolsevik meg elveszti egyik leghatasosabb fegyveret.

Szoval a jobbolsevikozas nem azt minosit aki
jobbolsevikozik csa a fasisztazas minositi azt aki
asisztazik.


| 
| Van azert ezen kivul is nehany problema az allitasaival.
| 
| 1. Toth Jozsef-bol a Budapesti telefonkonyvben van legalabb egy oldal.
| Masreszt, nem is budapesti lakosrol van szo feltetlenul, es allitom, a 
| budapesti Toth Jozsefek 1/3-anak ha van telefonja. Nem latom, hogy uaz 
| a szemely volna. 

Ebben igaza van. En arrol a toth jozsefrol beszelek aki a 24
orat is szerkeszti. Nem allitom hogy minden toth jozsef hungarista.

| 1'. Tobben, nem akarok ide egy hosszu listat irni, meg vannak gyozodve rola
| (en nem!), hogy az osszes gyakori-nevu szerzo a siliconvalley.com domainrol
| egy es ugyanaz a szemely. Szoval itt egy komoly problema van. 2. Nem tom
| mi az a 24 ora, es hogy ott vedik-e Szalasit, ill. On szerint mit takar ez
| a kifejezes.

Expliciten arrol hogy nemzetvezetonkrol csak pozitiv
megnyilatkozasokat olvashatunk, es tortenelmi szerepte
pozitivan itelik meg.


 Ilyen allitasokat _barmelyik_ cenzurazatlan forumrol lehet
| terjeszteni.

Csakhogy a 24 ora nem cenzuralatlan forum, hanem
szerkesztett lap 

 Es ha oda nem irnanak _tenyleg_ szelsoseges elemek, akkor
| meg mindig lehet oda kuldeni iromanyokat (hamis cimekrol) lejaratas vegett.
| 3. Nem latom at, hogy adott esetben a webmaster mennyiben felelos a
| megjelent anyagokert.

Pedig eleg konnyen atlathato ha a webmaster egy szerkesztett
lap webmaster-e es egyben kiadoja 

4. Nem vagyok tisztaban azzal, hogy On hogy definialja
| mi az hogy 
| fajgyulolo. Ez meglehetosen ellentmondasos dolog manapsag. PC-s agyu 
| liberalisaink szerint mindenki fajgyulolo, aki nem kozibuk
tartozik.

En azt allitottam hogy Hungarista. On szernit nem mindenki
aki hungarista fajgyulolo?
| 
| A NEMZET ujrapublikalja a liberalis OMRI digest-et, a jobbkozep BLA-t, gyakra
n 
| ad le cikkeket, melyek az Uj Mao-ban, Demokrata-ban, Nepszabadsagban,
| Magyar Hirlapban, Magyar Forumban Uj Ember-ben, Szombat-ban, Cibulak-ban meg 
a 
| jo eg tudja meg miben megjelenik. Meg csak azt se lehet mondani hogy csak 
| konzervativ anyagokat ad le, mivel a leadott anyagok
tobbsege nem az.

En a 24-ora beli tevekenysegbl vontam le a kovetkeztetest.


| Az, hogy ezek az ujsagok odahaza nincsenek betiltva, azt jelenti, hogy mukode
suk
| torvenyes, es meg a Lex Goncz nevu justismord tesztjet is
kialljak.

Vagy meg nem merettettek meg... Egybent pedig nem allitottam
hogy nem torvenyesek.


| Marpedig asszerint olyen anyagok, melyet On allit _nem
jelenhetnek meg_.

MIlyen anyagokat allitottam amelyek nem jelentke meg?

| 
| A NEMZET tobbszor leadott mar olyan cikkeket, melyeket kicenzuraztak mas, 
| _es nem csak konzervativ_ lapkbol.
| Tobb neves szerzoje van. Koztuk Lovas Istvan (Torgyan egyik tanacsadoja), es 
| idonkent Csapody Bela, Jeszenszky Geza es masok is megeresztenek egy egy iras
t, 
| melyet kizarolagosan a NEMZET-nek szantak.

Es?
Mennyiben all ez ellentetben azzal amit allitottam? Masreszt
ugye on is emlekszik arra Jeszenszky Geza  mit es miert irt
a nemzetben :)


| Bizonyara az a "baj", hogy a szerkesztobizottsagnak a demokracia es 
| sajtoszabadsag felfogasa lenyegesen kulonbozik attol, amit az atkosban 
| megszoktunk. Tovabba lehet tapasztalni, hogy egy jo nagy lyukat ut az
| ismet totalissa valt hazai media hegemonian, raadasul pontosan a legfontosabb
| reteget, az ertelmiseget megcelozva. Ez nyilvan rengeteg ember erdeket serti.
 
| Dehat ilyen az elet. Talaljanak ki valami jobbat ellene ill helyette.


Ezt mibol vonja le? Milyen allitast tettem amibol on erre kovetkeztet?


| Tovabba, itt szeretnem megjegyezni, hogy lehet, hogy igaza van, es Toth Jozse
f 
| (az, akirol szo van), fajgyulolo, Hungarista etc. De kerdem en, On ugyan ilye
n
| szigoru a HVG, 168 ora, Magyar Hirlap, Nepszabadsag etc
munkatarsaival szemeben?



Milyen szigorrol beszel?  Milyen szigort alkalmaztam Toth
Jozseffel szemben?

| On nem veszi a lapokat es rendszeresen ir tiltakozo cikkeket itt az 
| SCM-en mert szerkesztoik kozt volt AVH-sok (magyar es kereszteny ellenesek) 
| dolgoznak? Vagy On kettos mercet alkalmaz?

Ez meg hogy jon  ide? Azert mert azt allitom hogy Toth
Jozsef hungarista azert minden politkai buntennyel
foglalkoznom kene? On szerint on kettos mercet alkalmaz,
vagy on minden lap minden szerkesztjevel, es minden
politikai szemelyiseggel foglalkozik? 

| [Itt szeretnem felhivni a figyelmet minden olvaso szamara, hogy ezek _kerdese
k_ 
| nem pedig allitasok.]
| 
| Nyilvan ugy van vele, mint a legtobb ember, hogy nem erdekli, hogy mi az
| _igazi_ politikai velemenye a szerkesztonek. A lapokat nem azert veszi,
| rendeli meg stb, hanem mert tetszik onnek, vagy legalabbis olvashatonak tartj
a.
| Es asszem, ez a lenyeg. 

Nem errol van szo. 

| A NEMZET a magyar ertelmiseg jobbik oldalanak _alapigenyet elegiti ki_, melyr
e
| ugy tunik, a jelenlegi politikai helyzetben _nincs mas mod_.
| Igy ha van esze a magyar ertelmiseg jobbik felenek, akkor nem nezi, kiktol
| jon ez a lap. 
| Masreszt, aki tovabbra is moralizalni akar, annak csak
annyit mondok:

Nem moralizaltam :)

| __Nem kellett volna szetzuzni a polgarosodo konzervativ kozeposztaly 
| lapjait es egyeb foumait__. Ezt (fokent az SZDSZ)
megtettek. 


Megis chogyan?

Nincs mas
| valasztasunk gyakorlatilag, akik nem kepesek melyliberalis lapokat olvasni,
| legfeljebb termeszetgyogyasz kura reszekent, hanytatoszer gyanant.
| Az a helyzet, hogy azzal elunk, amink van.
| Az, hogy ez esetleg segiti nehany nem helyen valo elem nepszeruseg novekedese
t?
| Hat, a dolgoknak aruk van. Mindenert fizetni kell. Antall nem tetszett, partj
at 
| tonkretettek, kapjak majd Torgyant. Ot es partjat nehezebb
lesz tonkretenni.

Kirol beszel? Mit tettem en Antall tonkretevesere? Ki tette
tonkre Antallt? Mivel?

| 
| Igy vagyok a NEMZET-tel is. Tonkretettek a Magyar Nemzetet? Lett belole
| NEMZET. Pesti Hirlapot? Lett belole Demokrata. MDF-et? Lett belole FKGP es MI
EP.
| Es meg lehet sorolni. Az egy illuzio, hogy ezek az erok nem kerulnek hatalomb
a
| elobb vagy utobb.

Adja isten hogy ne legyen igaza.

| Az ui. ekvivalens lenne a Mo-i demokracia megszunesevel, nem leven mas, aki
| kepes lenne levaltani a jelenlegi kormanyt. Es akkor mar nem az Antall fele u
ri 
| modorban folyik majd az egyre  elkerulhetetlenebbe valo
rendcsinalas

Es akkor tenyleg megnezhetjuk magunkat, hogy Pellionisz
altal beigert amerikai konzervativ tamogatas hogy kihuz
minket a szarbol.
 
| 
| Attol tartok, ha tonkre teszik a NEMZET-et, akkor lesz belole 24 ora.
| Ez az uzenet asszem eleg vilagos az SZDSZ es PC agyuaknak. Jo lesz gondolkozn
i.

1) azert ez talan megsem ilyen egyszeru. 
2) nem tettem, mondtam semmit a nemzet megszuneseert. Az
persze hogy keretlenul kuldtek nekem nem tetszett, ezen tul
semmi kifogasom a letezese ellen
3) Nem tartom magam PC agyunak.. Nem is tudom mit ert on
ezen. Nem ertek viszont egyet a PC modszereivel, celjaival.

istvaan

 wrote:
> 
> In article >, 
> (Istvan Szucs) wrote:
> 
> > I agree, but I cannot imagine how the text in the
> > excerpts could be justified by anything in the story.
> 
> i have not read the excerpts; i have not read the story. *but* (it seems to m
e)
> 
> 1. a literary work should be considered in its entirety... always.
> 
> 2. a literary work should be considered on the basis of its literary merit
> and *not* its subject-matter.
> 
> ( now #2 is difficult, i admit, even for myself. seeing as some
> subject-matters do indeed impact adversely on my ahm... emotional
> well-being. and still i will maintain: that the content of a literary work
> is its language, and not its subject-matter. dunno... celine comes to
> mind.)
> 
> ef
> 
> --
> NWHQ
> http://www.knosso.com/NWHQ/

First of all no responsible historical documents support the accusation 
and calumny in Spiro's subject matter; and secondly, gutter language and 
imagery doesn't equal artistic merit. Both A. Jozsef and Ady (and even 
Petofi) came closer to the truth in the judgement of the role of the 
Church in general, and in Hungarian history, in particular. And neither 
Jozsef, nor Ady, nor Petofi were -as we used to say when I was a 
youngster in Hungary a half of a century ago- "szivbajosok".

In article >,
Laszlo Horvath  > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs wrote:

[...]
| > IN Hungary historically Attila Jozsef, and Ady were
| > considered to be in the same category as Spiro is put in
| > now, and I would very much hate to allow myself to be a
| > "Horger Antal ur", not to mention Khomeini (vs Rushdie) or
| > whoever vs Dante.

| It is true that historically A. Jozsef and Ady were in the "same 
| category" as Spiro. But both Jozsef and Ady were gentlemen in comparison 
| with Spiro. 

Well apparently you haven't read some pieces that I
read. They are pretty graphic and explicit - if this is what
you mean by lack of gentlemanliness.
Just look at Elobocsajto szep uzenet to mention a milder but
well known example. Of course if you went as far as
Baudlaire, you could see things that make Spiro's excerpts
look like a innertime family cnversation (and I don't mean
the Bundys).

Spiro is closer to Allen Ginsburg and Maplethorp. His is a 
| gutter language, thoroughly tasteteless. That alone should make him 
| undigestable.

I disagree. I think that offensive languate may be very
appropriate to eress feelings, emotions, opinions, or to be
used by certain characters. I think gutter langauge may be
appropriate for various reasons in literature. Nt all of
literature needs to be about pretty things, and "gutter
language" can be pretty expressive. I just don't see how it
is appropriate here...

 While, legally of course, he has his rights ... I would, as 
| I hope every reader with a sense of decency, would through his work if I 
| had a copy of it- on the dungheap where it deserves to be.

You just passed judgment on many many authors considered
"classics" or representative essentials of the 20th
century. I think it would be a shame to pass judgment on
them like that without evaluating their merits.


| 
| And, alas, it is true that a non-government appointed jury selected his 
| work for reward, the government should have had some sense and not to 
| accept the jury's taste for reward. 

I think that owuld have been undue interference!

It appears that in Hungary, as in the 
| USA -or around the enlightened West- juries are a self-selected 
| minorities, with a taste for the abstract, or the degenerate and 
| the shocking in all areas of artistic endeavor.

What makes them self selected? DId you think that juries
should be based on popular vote or opinion of the majority?
In that case you would find out that the best art there is
is either Szomszedok or Dallas maybe Isaura and   Magnum PI
close behind :)

And this 
| minority-representing juries often award the prize to the Maplethorps, 
| Ginsbergs, and Spiros. And often these prizes come from the taxpayers 
| money.

I've had discussions about this with many people. I too have
doubts about why someone's opinion  should be authoritative
about art, but I really don't have a strong position. I do
not see as a let's see what the majority likes attitude as
one that would bring culture and arts ahead. This is why
broadway is only showing musicals in NY (for the most
part), and this is how the american commercial tv works  -
ratings. 

| 
| While Mr. Pellionisze's request to Gonz is unlikely to lead to the 
| cancellation of this unfortunate decision it would serve as a token of 
| protest.
| And in that sense I would gladly associate my name with that.
| For Spiro there would've been ways to criticise the Hungarian past, the 
| Church, the kings of Hungary, etc. And he would, in all probability, have 
| been more effective. His "way", I am sure, has boomeranged. A minority of 
| perverts and simpletons might have applauded. But hopefully the majority 
| has been paying attention.
| 
| Laszlo Horvath

Here I am in trouble threefold. I tend to agree that Sprio
could have and should have found more appropriate ways of
criticism of the past, but here I would have to agree with
Elizabeth and say that I have to reserve judgment until I
see the whole work, and of course even then I can only speak
for myself, which I am sure you won't consider too
important. However labeling those who consider Spiro's work
valuable as perverts and simpleton is unfounded, especially
uintil you read the whole story, and you hear what it is
that they think is valuable in it.

Istvan

In article >,
Eva S. Balogh > wrote:
|  (Istvan Szucs) wrote:
| 
| 
| 
| 
| >The conclusions you [Andras Szucs] draw from this difference of
| >opinion, or from the fact that Eva Balogh may be wrong (I
| >actually think she is), the noise you make about this is
| >juvenile.
| 
| 	Istvan, I think Eva Balogh is right. Because the only thing Eva Balogh
| says is as follows. In everyday conversations we don't refer to 1956
| as "szabadsagharc." In ordinary conversations we talk about 1956 as
| "forradalom." In writing, in titles of organizations, one can find the
| coupling of revolution (forradalom) and war of independence
| (szabadsagharc) but not always. See, for example, the 1956-Institute
| which doesn't carry the word "szabadsagharc." Therefore Szucs's
| ranting and raving about nothing. He gives examples from written texts
| and names of organizations. I am talking about spoken Hungarian usage.
| 
This I agree with. It is certainly true that in everyday
usage wt talk about the otvenhatos forradalom, mcuh more
often then about the otvenhatos szabadsagharc.

If I may ask you, if you talk about Szucs'  rantings, please
specify at least with an initial which one you ar referring
to. I think I know :) but others may be confused.

I have a small request.  I want to compliment a very attractive and nice
young Hungarian woman (age 26) in her own language. At the least, I would
want to convey that she is both pretty and appealing as a person.

Can anyone help me?  
Thanks, John

On Fri, 21 Jun 96 19:32:25 GMT Peter Szaszvari ) wrote:
| In article >,
|    imexintra > wrote:
| >We Christians are concerned with the right of every person to 
|                                                      ^^^^^^
| Here is the point! Why do you call a minus 6 months old baby a 
| person?

Because babies are persons.  Or rather -- living human beings.

-- 
Penio Penev > 1-212-327-7423

On Sat, 22 Jun 1996 11:43:14 -0500 Alexander Yordanov 
e.edu) wrote:
| 
| 
| On Fri, 21 Jun 1996, imexintra wrote:
| 
| >  (Scott A. Safier) wrote:
| > 
| > >A long-term sociology study was conducted in Rumania to women who were
| > >twice denied abortion (first by the lower state organization, then an
| > >appeal).  The (unwanted) children of these women had more developmental
| > >problems growing up, scored lower on standardized tests, have difficulty
| > >keeping jobs, and are more likely to be alcoholics.  Some of these
| > >(unwanted) children are now having children, and these effects seem to 
| > >be
| > >affecting their parenting and childrearing skills.
| > 
| > 1. Scott, you like very much communist statistics, but you should know 
| > that communist statistics is not reliable.
| 
| Why do you think that all statistics from a communist country are 
| unreliable? Besides, a lot of studies in Romania were done after the fall 
| of comunism there, and those are to be trusted. 
| 
| > 2. Every human being is a unical person. Nobody has right to decide the 
| > faith of another human whether he/she shouls live or die. Tell me,
| 
| The fetus is not a human being because it depends on the woman's 
| organism. As such, it is not a human being.

The one-week baby is not a human being because it depends o the
organism of its parents/guardians.  As such, it is not a human being
and deserves to die.  

Same thing for all kids up to adolescence.


| > exterminate yourselves instead of killing innocent little children? Do 
| 
| Fetuses are *not* little children. Stop, please!

As well as adults are *not* little children, which, of course, does
not give us the right to kill adults.  Or does it?



| You Christians are concerned with keeping Christianity alive so that you 
| can exercise your power and suppress anyone who dares to question your 
| bullshit.

Killing human beings is something that has been outlawed not only by
the Christian religion, but rather by all religions that sprouted from
the Old Testament, as well as meny others.  And we live in the world,
created by exactly those religions.

-- 
Penio Penev > 1-212-327-7423

In article >,  (Frank) says:
>
>On 15 Jun 1996 18:09:46 GMT,  (Laszlo Horvath)
>wrote:
>
>>Magyar filmek vannak a KNA (B.C.), (ch5 in Vancouver) csatornan, szombat 
>>este. 5 hetig tart, ez a masodik het.
>
>
>Here in Calgary, it's next to impossible to get any Hungarian films.
>Yes we have a weekly half hour of Hungarian programing on the local
>cable "Community" channel, but it is mostly news, read in hungarian,
>with the occasional, poor quality cartoon or travelogue thrown in. 
>I envy you folks in Vancouver.  
>
>Frank
  you're quite lucky in Calgary, as in England we don't even have anything to 
do with Hungary. I don't know anything about the Hungarian community in 
Canada, but in England the Hungarians do not really stick together. There
were 300,000 Hungarians once in England, but they either died or moved 
to Canada, Australia, America or back to Hungary. Most came to England
in 1956, including my father.Also they came to England very young with
no money and now some of them have more than the English who were here
first. 
      The closest I get to Hungary is going there once a year,  if I am lucky. 
I 
was born in England and can speak fluent Hungarian unlike most kids who
have Hungarian parents. They cannot be bothered to learn!
   I am not on the NET but I do have an address;

                                 LESLIE SOMOGYI
                                 4 MENDIP WAY 
                                 SUNDON PARK
                                 LUTON, BEDFORDSHIRE
                                 LU3 3JL 
                                 ENGLAND

Szia Laszlo!

First of all, thanks for replying. Of course I had to reply to that insect
called Megorov. Although maybe I didn´t had to do because he was only trying
to provoque, and unfortunately nowadays, provocations are out everyday bread.
I suppose the Eurocopa 96 won´t get much attention in the United States, 
soccer has no the same status as in Europe. Anyway, what I wanted to explain
to you is that last weekend there was the match England-Spain at quarterfinals.
And what did English press do (not all the press, of course), they organized
a campaign against Spain, Toros (Bullfighting, which I don´t like, either),
paella (a typical Spanish dish), and other things. So what´s the point in
doing all this, when every summer lots of english people come to Spain for
holidays? It´s all the same, provocation! Better not paying attention.

Anyway, I like Hungarian language and Hungarian culture. And I would like to
know more about it, and what that Megorov wrote is rubbish, as rubbish is
racism, xenophobia and all that stuff, against Hungarians, against Chechens,
against Spaniards, against everyone.

My native language is Spanish (we speak Spanish at home, also French because
my mother is French), but I speak Catalan since I began going to school, i.e.
since I was 4 more or less.

Also it´s true that I have a Basque name (Joan Carles is my first name,
composed
as you see) Azkoitia. It has to be written with ´k´ because Basque lacks the
´c´, but due to Franco´s dictatorship and his intentions to suppress other
cultures than spanish (Catalan, Basque, Galician) it was ´Spanishized´.
My christian name is Juan in Spanish, but Joan in Catalan. I like both. In
Basque it would be Jon.

But, how do you know all this about Spain, Basque country and Catalan?

On the other hand, I have already contacted with hix.mit.edu via netscape, but
the problem is that it is very slow, although interesting. However, I can´t
connect to internet from home, so I have to go the university. That´s why I
would like to have written  material to learn more about Hungarian and
hungarians.

Inkabb szeretnem irni magyarul de nem tudom enough. Next time, I expect to
write in Hungarian.

Koszonom szepen, a viszontlatasra, Laszlo.

Joan Carles Azkoitia

Archive-name: hungarian/pointer
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: pointer
Bit-listserv-hungary-archive-name: pointer
Version: 0.90 (beta)
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-modified: 1995/11/21
URL: http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer

 This document summarizes network-related resources of Hungarian
interest, which are accessible via email. Some of the most readily
available sources of information can be found in the archives of
periodical information postings to Usenet; these documents are commonly
known as FAQs (from Frequently Asked/Answered Questions). Knowing the
name of the file you can retrieve it by sending email to
 with the command "send
usenet/news.answers/<ARCHIVE-NAME>" in the message (without the quotes,
and with substituting the actual name for <ARCHIVE-NAME> in the pattern
shown above) - for example, to get the document described below, use

 send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq

 To learn more about the RTFM server just send the command "help" to it
- it will provide step-by-step intstructions on how to use the
archives, on retrieving indexes and so on.

 "Hungarian electronic resources FAQ" is a comprehensive collection
dealing with email, FTP, WWW and other Internet tools; its archive name
is 'hungarian-faq' (and the mail-server command to get it is shown in
the example above).
 If you only have direct access to email then, in order to use the
other tools, you'll need the methods described in "Accessing The
Internet By E-Mail" (Archive-name:
internet-services/access-via-email).
 To get a general introduction to Usenet (with some guides to Internet
as well - and explanation of how they are different, too) see "Welcome
to news.newusers.questions!" (Archive-name: news-newusers-intro).
 For a guide to finding someone's e-mail addresses, see the "FAQ: How
to find people's E-mail addresses" (Archive-name: finding-addresses).
Do notice that it's usually inappropriate to send such blanket requests
to mailing lists; the search tools available give much better chance to
locate addresses sought than posted queries in any case!
 An overview of commercial on-line services in Hungary is available by 
John Horvath > 
(Archive-name: hungarian/comm-providers).

 The hungarian-faq describes several email lists related to Hungary;
only a brief summary is shown here. Please keep in mind that
subscription requests (and other administrative communications) should
be directed to the server address, NOT to the lists themselves.

Server: 
 List:  (the HUNGARY LISTSERV list)

Server: 
 List: HOL (Hungary Online)

Server: 
 List: hungary-report

Server: 
 Lists: OMRI-L (Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest)
        MIDEUR-L (Middle European discussion list)

Server: 
 List: cet-online (Central Europe Today On-Line; email )

Server: 
 List: CERRO-L (Central European Regional Research Organization)

Server: email to  (Hollosi Information Exchange)
 Lists: HIX is a collection of several separate lists, including
  - MOZAIK, a collection of news items in English
  - various discussion forums in Hungarian language
  - SCM and HUNGROUPS, which are email-accessible archives of the Usenet
    newsgroup soc.culture.magyar and the hun.* national hierarchy,
    respectively; to get a directory listing of these archives (as well
    as that of other HIX lists), send email to  with
    "arch" in the 'Subject:' line. Note that the SENDDOC utility takes
    its parameter from the 'Subject:' of the message (unlike many other
    servers, like the ones described previously, which use the body)!

 Note that this document is available on the
 <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>; homepage for the "Hungarian
electronic resources FAQ" at the HIX WWW-server.
 The latter also provides access for the full FAQ via 
 'finger ', and for this brief pointer you are
reading via 'finger ' (notice that you
will likely need to redirect the output to a pager or a file in order
to read it). The Usenet archive name for this document is
 hungarian/pointer .

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the 
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!

Ola Juan:

I went to Los Angeles City College and took 2 years of Spanish. Also I 
worked in Mexico for three and a half year.

Since I'm in the USA, I can not help you regarding your question about 
magazines or the newspapers. However, I was in Hungary 3 weeks ago and I 
have seen the very material you are talking about. I'm sure someone will 
guide you out there. I also have seen some Spanish papers believe it, or 
not.

Te felicito, porque hablas y escribes muy bien este idioma tan dificil.
Buena suerte, y toma le suave con mis hermanos Hungaros.

Dr. Laszlo

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On 25 Jun 1996, Istvan Szucs wrote:
> If I may ask you, if you talk about Szucs'  rantings, please
> specify at least with an initial which one you ar referring
> to. I think I know :) but others may be confused.

 But he/they/it only has one ranting, basically ;-(...

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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 wrote:
> 
> T.M.Lutas > wrote:
> >
>>SNIP<
> >Perhaps setting the moral foundation doesn't trip some of our own
> >"communism isn't so bad" crowd. It's when you go beyond theory to practical
> >measures that people seem to get hysterical. Is there a practical limit
> >on hypocrisy? I've yet to see any evidence.
> 

Like I said ...  I don't know of any political system that was able to be used
as a front for the deliberate stravation/extermination of _at least_  30 millio
n
citizens of its own countries.

I'm refering to the combined losses of Chinese, Russians, Ukranian, etc., that 
died
at the hands of their fellow countrymen in all the various "great purges [sic]"
 that 
occurred  from 1919 [Russia] though the Maoist Great Revolution of the late '60
's. 

Bill Halverson

In article >,
 > wrote:


Other then repeating yourself opening new threads every day
with the same information even if your view is challanged
are you planning to do anaything? Perhaps respond to
criticsm why your comparison with holocaust denial is totally groundless,
since the question here is not that Eva is denying that the
revolution occured, but that whether or not it is called
freedom fight or revolution (her vote is with revolution.

Your contribution to this newsgroup is absolutely
non-constructive.
I am not saying this because I disagre with your evaluation
but because all you do is repeat yourself. I don;t think it
works even as propaganda, but it sure does not help the 
exchange of ideas.
Your unresponsiveness, makes it evident that you are not
interested in dialog, in fact yuo conveniently open a new
thread every time so responses to you previously posting the
same thing would not be referenced. 
I think when I previously just called your effort juvenile I
gave you too much credit.


Istvan

In article >,
Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq > wrote:
| -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
| 
| On 25 Jun 1996, Istvan Szucs wrote:
| > If I may ask you, if you talk about Szucs'  rantings, please
| > specify at least with an initial which one you ar referring
| > to. I think I know :) but others may be confused.
| 
Do you consider my postings rantings? Why?

Istvan

Joska, ha a sorok mogott azt akartad sejtetni, hogy Spiro Zsido nemzeti
segu, vagy israeli nemzetisegu, akkor a hozzaallasod helytelen 1
Ti. Zsido nemzetiseg NINCS ( nez meg egy magyar,indus, yemenita, perzsa 
zsidot es azt fogod altni, hogy mindegyik a "gazdanepre" hasonlit !!! Ezek 
szerint Spiro- mitan esetleg szoke es szurkeszemu- ha szerencseje van- 
akkor nyugodtan mondhatjuk, hogy magyar nemzetisegu- akarcsak Petri ( nem 
kevesbe kifogasolhato vallasgyalazo stilusa es azt hiszem nem zsido...).
visoznt, ha arra akarsz tippelni, hogy zsido vallasu- esetleg zsido 
eredetu, akkor visoznt nekem az az erzesem, hogy jo a tippelesed-megpedig 
azert, mert a nev Spiro- igen kozel all a spanyol zsidok kozott igen 
gyakori  Schapira nevhez. elkepzelheto, hogy az evtizedek soran ez 
Spiro-va alakult- magyar nyelven konnyebb igy kimondani...
Egyebkent az a zsido, aki igy ir, mint Spiro (megha a felet kicenzuraztak 
is a dramajabol) az bizony szegyene minden vallasnak...
Altalanossagban visoznt azt is mondhatjuk, hogy az utolso idokben- 5-10 
ev, valahogy "schick", nyomdafesteket NEM turo modon irni- mintha ez 
mutatna a szolasszabadsagot...Nem hiszem, hogy az USA-ban, ahol olyan 
buszkek a sozlasszabadsagra, hasonlo stilusban Spiro nyomtatasban 
megjelenhetne ! Persze remelem ismered azt a kabare mondast: 
Magyarorszagon mindeg a lo masik oldalan vannak...
Ha zoldnek kell lenni abban, ha pirosnak abban es ha demokratanak- velt 
demokratanak kell-lehet lenni akkor eleve tulozunk... 

Georg Fischer






Joska !In article >, 
 says...
>
>T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>>
>>Szerintetek a Spiro milyen nemzetisegu ?
>
>Tippeljunk.  Tied az elso doba's, Tamas. ;-)
>
>PJ

 wrote:


>Well, the bloom is off the rose. And emanates a foul smelling
>odor. She can rest assured that her "Freedomfight denial"
>will get exactly the kind of treatment from volunteers
>of Hungarian Antidefamation League as "Holocaust deniers"
>deserve from respective other organizations.

	I am looking forward to meeting these volunteers of the Hungarian
Antidefamation League.

	Mr. Andras Szucs's problem is that he finds it difficult to believe
that there are a few people on this earth who are true democrats, a
concept he finds hard to fathom and mixes up with communism. Anyone
who doesn't agree with his political philosophy (far right) must be a
communist. In order to prove this accusation he twists all utterances
beyond recognition. Thus, from student revolutionaryin 1956 one is
transformed into a comrade-in-arm of Gyula Horn; from a student of
Russian and East European Studies an ardent believer in Marxism;  from
a genuine interest in Hungarian politics ignited during a brief visit
to Hungary in December 1993 a faithful supporter of Gyula Horn and his
regime. One could continue. But if anyone is interested in my person
and my political views I would advise that person the peruse my
writings on the HIX forums (Forum, Szalon, and Hungary). I believe  a
different picture would emerge from the one described here.


Eva Balogh

On Tue, 25 Jun 1996 02:39:02 GMT,  wrote:

<snip>

>I want to compliment a very attractive and nice
>young Hungarian woman (age 26) in her own language.

<snip>

So do I....          8^)

>Can anyone help me?  
>Thanks, John
>
Sorry for the waste of bandwidth....

Bela P. Havasreti

In article >,  (P
enio Penev) writes:
|> On Fri, 21 Jun 96 19:32:25 GMT Peter Szaszvari ) wrot
e:
|> | In article >,
|> |    imexintra > wrote:
|> | >We Christians are concerned with the right of every person to 
|> |                                                      ^^^^^^
|> | Here is the point! Why do you call a minus 6 months old baby a 
|> | person?
|> 
|> Because babies are persons.  Or rather -- living human beings.

Says who?

|> 
|> -- 
|> Penio Penev > 1-212-327-7423

Antonio Branco Nunes > wrote:

>Alanis Morissette wrote:
>|> 
>|> Whocrass wrote:
>...
>|> > > >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
>........
>|> > > >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
>|> > > >Everybody   Fuck Otto J. Makela
>...
>|> > > "Reading about jazz is like kissing your sister"
>|> > >                      -a librarian somewhere USAWE DON'T CARE TO SO 
>|> > >SHUT THE FUCK
>|> > UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>|> 
>|> Who is Otto J. Makela?

>hehehehehehehehehehe


>Branco
>Portugal

????? Dont got it man,  help me on that dude


A girl a day keeps the wife away!!!


E`verdade, mas nao digam ŕ minha Maria...
Zé Marreta
E-Mail  (De Sentinela e batendo-se(no bom sentido;-)..) pelas c
ausas justas, 
defensor dos pobres de espirito, 
contra a parasitagem social ca esta o Marreta p'defender o PessoALL
Snail Mail Adress:
Urbanizacao Pedreira dos Hungaros Park, Apartment 3a near huntchback's Tavern

In article >,
    wrote:

>I have a small request.  I want to compliment a very attractive 
and nice
>young Hungarian woman (age 26) in her own language. At the 
least, I would
>want to convey that she is both pretty and appealing as a 
person.
>
>Can anyone help me?  
>Thanks, John
>
Be carefull !

I hope it helps :)


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

Sure, number one pathological liar is E. Balogh herself, but
at least she has the right for self-defense. If she cannot
talk herself out from "Freedomfight denial" she is clearly
an outcast of decent societies everywhere who KNOW that 1956,
indeed, was a heroic Freedomfight against the Evil Empire, for
which the world still owes Hungary. (For an internal revolution
the world owes nothing -- this is why E.Balogh denies Freedom-
fight, and accepts only the revolution.  Eva Balogh is NOT on
the side of Hungarians, she is on the side of internationalists)

Who else would be crazy enough to back repeat-Marxist Eva Balogh
in her lie of Revolution or Freedomfight? (It was NEVER either-or;
the accepted definition of 1956 is "Revolution AND Freedom Fight").

Take for instance Istvan Szucs. Apparently, he is not crazy enough
to deny either revolution or freedomfight (he writes "I am not saying
this because I disagre with your evaluation" - though he does appear
to support the "either revolution or freedomfight", he has yet to
be on record for "revolution and freedomfight").

Why is Istvan Szucs such an ardent defender of Eva Balogh on this
issue, if he himself disagrees with Balogh's "Freedomfight denial"?

Simple. Istvan Szucs is a defender of the DOUBLE STANDARD, and thus
speaks up for those (Eva Balogh) whose contribution to propaganda is
to do lip service (paid or unpaid) to maintaining a double standard.
Hungarians must accept standards imposed on them from the outside,
yet should be disqualified even of using the SAME STANDARDS when it
comes to defend themselves.

The issue therefore is LOYALTY to the Hungarian Nation -- that
Eva Balogh as an indoctrinated Marxist in her youth and indoctrinated
internationalist thereafter NEVER HAD (was indoctrinated to dispise
Nation and whatever comes with the concept), and Istvan Szucs is loyal
only to HUNGARY (as he wishes to claim the country to them) and displays
no loyalty to speak of to Hungarian Nation.

This is why these characters would like to see Hungarian Nation
destroyed, since their lack of loyalty would thus be meaningless.
They can't wait till the moment when "Soc.culture.magyar" becomes
"soc.culture.centraleuropean".

I suggest they do exactly that -- establish THAT list and let
"soc.culture.magyar" unsabotaged, let it serve the goals of strenghtening
the Culture of Magyars, that is one of the pillars of Hungarian
Nationhood.

 (Istvan Szucs) wrote:


>Akkor csak nezzen korul 24 ora archivumaban aminek Toth
>Jozsef a webmaster-e. http://www.autobahnos.com/~jtoth


	Nahat, Jozsi ba' ket ujsagot is szerkeszt! Igen tehetseges ficko ez a
Toth Jozsef. Par honappal ezelott alig makogott valamit magyarul, de
ket het alatt tokeletesen megtanulta nyelvunket: a Nemzet
szerkesztobizottsaganak elnokekent lattuk vissza. Kesz csoda, hogy
ennek a Toth Jozsi ba'-nak micsoda energiaja van, kulonosen ha
szamitasba vesszuk, hogy mar legalabb 70-80 ev korul jarhat, mivel
oreg "amerikas magyar." Olyan negy elemivel rendelkezo parasztember,
aki valamikor Horthy Magyarorszaganak nyomorabol menekult Amerikaba.
Vagy talan az is lehet, hogy mar itt szuletett az istenadta es
mindossze szegeny negy elemit vegzett papaja vandorolt ki meg Ferenc
Jozsef koraban. Talan a Felvidekrol! Ugy, hogy a budapesti
telefonkonyvben keresni a mi oreg amerikas magyarunkat bizony csak
idopocseklas.

	Koszonom a felvilagositast, feltetlenul  bele fogok kukkantani Jozsi
ba' uj ujsagjaba.

	Balogh Eva

In article >,  () wrote:

> T.M.Lutas > wrote:

> >Seriously, I'm surprised that this thread hasn't drawn other people to it. 
> 
> Maybe I need to post something "controversial" again, eh?  I'll bet that
> they will join that thread! 

Unfortunately, my ability to go full bore into this sort of speculation has 
just ended. Up until very recently, I've been in the enviable position of 
complete independent. I had no bosses, no official ties, just my own sense 
of justice to guide my political commentary. 

A lot of this was due to the fact that there was no PNT-cd  structure to speak 
of in New York. That's changing now. Mr. Dinu Aluman has been recently 
appointed as US VP of the PNT-cd structure and he is a New York resident and 
he has decided to organize the NYC metropolitan area. I signed up so now, 
at least theoretically, people can hang the PNT to a small degree on what 
I say. Hopefully, we'll be getting up an official PNT website which I will
likely write the code for. 

Note: I've said in the past several times that when I acquired party ties 
and ceased to be 100% an independent, I would let people know. Well, now 
you know that I kept my word in this matter.

> >Perhaps setting the moral foundation doesn't trip some of our own 
> >"communism isn't so bad" crowd. It's when you go beyond theory to practical 
> >measures that people seem to get hysterical. Is there a practical limit 
> >on hypocrisy? I've yet to see any evidence.
> 
> I wonder what your estimate is of the "typical" Romanian Internet
> contributor/reader.  I wonder how the profile of that typical
> Internetter compares to the typical Hungarian one.  

I don't think that I would be able to make a generalization. Heck, half 
the time if they post in english, I can't tell for certain that they are 
Romanian or not. Wally Keeler could be some sick SRI plot to give 
anti-communists ulcers and is really some guy in Bucuresti named Ionescu 
and I really couldn't tell. And if you think that this is too far-fetched, 
you should read sometime how the US tried to get rid of Castro. Once you 
digest the possibility of a poisoned wetsuit, nothing is impossible. A 
poisoned Keeler? Who knows (just kidding Oali).

> I've seen a gradual
> shift of the typical Hungarian Internetter over the last 6/7 years from
> mostly the children of the former Communist era elite (who were the
> first in seizing Western study opportunities) to a more representative
> composition of the Hungarian middle class today.  However, due to their
> earlier opportunities, the children of the former elite (some of us
> fondly call the "Kadar Jugend"), are in better positions than the late
> comers.  

Well, it stands to reason. I'm not going to challenge you on this. However, 
by its very nature the net makes such advantages more irrelevant than in 
any other field of endeavor. For example, look at the political pages I 
publish. With a very small amount of money I've generated waves far larger
than I could have in any other medium.
(insert plug here)
If you haven't taken a look lately, the address is 
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
(end shameless plug)

The Kadar Jugend as you call them or Ceausescu's Children in Romania are 
handicapped because they are essentially a rear guard action. They have no 
moral legitimacy. They cannot tolerate open, frank discussion of the past, 
and they are in no position to promote any positive agenda. 

If there is anything in the world that promotes open, frank discussion 
among huge numbers of people and the promotion of positive agenda better 
than the Internet, I've yet to see it. These guys are paper tigers and 
any attempt by them to control things runs up against the very structure 
of the internet as a robust network that cannot be killed or censored.

> BTW, don't expect me to prove any of this with statistics; it's
> only my educated guess.  Members of the "Kadar Jugend" are usually
> very careful not to hint anything about their background, but they are
> still fairly easily recognized by their views.  They go to elaborate
> lengths arguing against or ridiculing any suggestion of calling former
> communist to account for their deeds.  When that fails, they also manage
> somehow to throw in the the red herring of anti-semitism.  I must admit
> they have a perfect score record so far: not one former communist
> official was put on trial yet!

What you really need is to find some Hungarian anti-communist jews or 
hungarians with some jewish ancestry to take care of the anti-semite 
attack. People who have some portion of that heritage are much more 
self-confident in the face of those attacks. This is not to say that
real anti-semitism is to be tolerated but this charge, like any other, 
can be used as a red herring and when it is, the tactic should be 
exposed and defeated. 

If you have trouble discovering them a good marker for finding a right wing 
jew is Israeli politics. If they like Likud over Labor, you've got yourself
a good ally in hungarian politics.

In US universities the right wing jews would be found in Tagar while the 
left wing ones would usually congregate around Hillel (though there were 
enough non-political ones there to make Hillel a so-so marker).

This is one of the reasons that UDMR makes me nervous. If there were an 
easy way to separate out the left-wing hungarians in transylvania from the 
right wing hungarians I think the whole area's politics would be more 
ideologically and less ethnically based. The resultant drop in PUNR 
support would be welcome news to me. Would you care to suggest such a test?

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
Note: my opinions are my own & not necessarily those of the PNT-cd or CDR

Tisztelt Szucs (Istvan) Ur!

Nehany megjegyzes legutobbi valaszahoz.

1. Sokkal tobb kommunista van mint fasiszta ma Magyarorszagon. Mig a kommunista
   veszely (ld. valasztasok az oroszoknal) realis, addig a fasiszta veszely
   abszolute irrealis, csak beteges emberek agyaban szulethet az meg, vagy 
   meginkabb politikai szandekkal, a sajat bunokrol, kulonosen a 
   privatizacio soran elkovetett buncselekmenyekrol valo figyelem eltereles 
   vegett. Tovabba nagyon jo ervkent szolgal a Nyugat fele a kialakult
   media hegemonia magyarazatakent annak elefogadtatasara.
   Ti.: Ha ezeknek a kezebe kerulne a kamera/mikrofon etc akkor itt embereket
   gazositananak el, lonenek a dunaba stb.
2. A fasisztazas nevetseges. Altalaban azokat akiket fasisztaznak, nem sok
   kozuk van ahhoz, amivel gyanusitjak oket, mig a masik esetben altalaban 
   (nem mindig, van 
   termeszetesen, mikor alpatalan) az illeto legalabbis parttag volt, igy
   lehet csak informacio hiany miatt no, meg a szemelyiseg jogok miatt nem
   lehet az allitasokat bizonyitani.
3. Valami erthetetlen oknal fogva a Nyugat jobban toleralja a bolsevik
   szemeteket, mint a (tenyleg, nem On vagy masok altal annak minositett) 
   fasiszta szemeteket.
   [Errol volt alkalmam egyszer hosszan diskuralni egy Belga katolikus
   pappal. Abszolute egyetertett velem, hogy a baloldali szelsosegeket
   a katolikus egyhaz jobban toleralja, mint a jobboldaliakat, bar az 
   elobbiek nem kevesbe veszelyesek, mint az utobbiak, bar O maga is arra
   hajlott, hogy jobban el tudja fogadni a szelsobalos propagandat
   a leoweni katolikus egyetemen, mint a megjeleno markans jobboldalt,
   bar O maga kifejezetten konzervetiv! 
   Akkor, a beszelgetes soran arra jutottunk, hogy ennek oka, talan
   abban keresendo, hogy mig a jobboldal szelsoseges formai visszautes 
   a poganysagra, egyfajta atavizmus, addig a baloldal szelsosegeseinek
   hangja sokszor szinte profetai, annak ellenere, hogy vilagos, hogy
   emberellenes. Dehat sok ponton az evangelium is az. [Hate mailekre 
   ezugyben nem valaszolok. Csak akkor, ha az illeto tudja bizonyitani
   a Petri Kossuth dija elleni peticiot alairta. :-)] Legalabbis olyan 
   gyarlo embereknek, mint en
   nehez kovetni, es elfogadni. De ezzel a papsag egy resze is igy van,
   ezt elismeri.
   Szamomra, aki nem vagyok vallasos, egyszeruen sokkolo az az aszocialitas,
   pl. amit Krisztus mond tobhelyutt. Sajnos, nincs Biblia a kozelemben, nem 
   tudok idezni, fejbol meg nem megy pontosan.
4. Nem allitottam, hogy On PC. Elnezest ha felreertheto voltam. 
   Orulok, hogy a PC-vel kapcsolatban (is) hasonlo allasponton vagyunk.
5. Irja:
   >Nem kene azert nemileg azt is tekintetbe venni hog akirol
   >mondka az esetleg tenyleg fasiszta?
   Jo kerdes. A kozepibe talalt. Rovid valaszom: NEM. 
   Hosszu valasz: Szinte mindenkirol mondjak mar. Igy a szo jelentese uresse
   valik. Arra a csoportra, amit tenylegesen jelol vannak mas, jobb kifejezesek
.
   Pl. Konzervativ, jobboldali, vagy mar sok esetben, azok a szemelyek, akiknek
   a velemenye nagyon nem tetszik. Hasonlo fejlodesen ment vegbe, mint a szinte
n
   tulhasznalt "antiszemita" kifejezes. Az is jelentes valtozason ment at.
   Egyesek szerint mar nem azokat jeloli, akik utaljak a zsidokat, hanem azokat
,
   akiket legalabb egy zsido utal.
   Ez a "szomagia", amit bizonyos korok csinalnak meglepoen hatasos, ui.az
emlitett
   szavaknak oriasi erzelmi toltete, energiaja van. Lagalabb annyi energia van 
   bennuk, mint egy atomeromuben. Altalaban normalis emberek irtoznak,
   vagy legalabbis nem igazan szeretik a fasisztakat, antiszemitakat. Ez egy 
   altalanosabb irtozas resze. A szelsosegtol, az idegentol valo irtozase.
   Node ha mindenkit lehet igy illetni, akkor a helyzet megvaltozik.
   Egy darabig vedekezeskent megprobaljak az emberek visszaallitani az eredeti
   jelentest. Aztan, mivel a tomeg media torzitasainak keptelenek ellenallni
   megfelelo intezmenyek hianyaban,
   elfogadjak a jelentes valtozast. Igy valojaban jelentes nelkuli szova valnak
,
   ui. amit tenylegesen jelolnek azokra vannak jobb szavak, melyek nem 
   erodalodnak, igy azokat keptelen az uj jelentes kiszoritani. Igy ezek a
szavak 
   el kezdenek "lebegni". Keresik uj jelentesuket.
   Igy lesz "fasiszta" egy program a  programozoi szlengben, ami valami
olyan, hogy
   igen vacakul van megirva, nem igazan user friendly, ostobaan eroszakos
megoldasai
   vannak stb.
   Szoval, ha mindenki aki szamit, de lagalabbis majdnem a fele fasisztanak
hivatik, 
   akkor nekem sincs, es szerintem masoknak sincs ideje es energiaja annak
utanajarni,
   hogy a "fasiszta" szot most melyik ertelmeben hasznaltak eppen.
   Ez a "szomagia", amit egyes neo-bolsevik es  PC korok alkalmaznak addig
fog mukodni,
   mig el nem terjed es altalanossa nem valik az uj ertelmezes a nyelvben.
   Csak akkor lesz gond, hogy hogy fogjuk hivni a tenylegesen fasisztakat,
antiszemitakat.
   Maradnak a "tenyleg fasiszta", "igazi fasiszta", ill. a "self-acknowleged
fascist"
   mintajara konstrualt  kifejezeek. De ezek erzelmi toltese sokkal kisebb,
mint az 
   erdeti jelentese. Nem beszelve ezek erodalasarol is. Igy majd, ha a
jelenlegi 
   tendenciakat ad absurdum visszuk, megjelennek az "igazan igazi fasiszta", 
   "isten bizony, hogy igazan igazi fasiszta" stb tipusu kifejezesek.
Persze, ez csak
   jatek, mert az egsz mar kozben elveszti erzelmi tartalmat, es atmegy a 
   "baszdmegezes" szintjere, mint azt mar egyes retegek eseten lehet latni.
   En a Magyar nyelvben meg kb 6-8 evet adok a "fasiszta" szo teljes 
   elbegatelizalodasanak. Utana legfeljebb egy fintort fog kivaltani.
   
   A fenti gondolatok nem teljesen eredetiek. Hasonlo megfigyelesekrol (ott
statisztikaval
   es egyeb "todomanyos" apparatussal alatamasztva) olvashattam egy a
"holocaust" szo,
   bagatelizalodasaval kapcsolatban a Francia nyelvben. Bar ott a dinamika
egy kicsit mas.
   A cikk szerint a Franciak mintha meguntak volna ezt a szot, meg az azzal
valo 
   allando dobalozast nem helyenvalo helyeken. Ez is mutatja, milyen
veszelyes jatek
   ez az orwelli szomagia. Tomegek szamara rohej lesz mas emberek szenvedesebol
   es halalabol, csak azert, hogy Mitterand elvtars es masok megkaparinthassak
   a hatalmat egy-ket evvel tovabb, mint egyebkent kepesek lettek volna ra.
   Ugyanennek persze megvan a hazai megfeleloje. Csak itt minden sokkal
barbarabb es
   veszelyesebb.
   Errol szol a cikk, amit szerencsesen toroltem a disc-emrol, nem gondolva
arra,
   hogy az meg kellhet.
     
Amint idom engedi bekukkantok a javasolt web oldalra, es kommentalni fogom,
hogy szerintem az fasiszta-e, es azt is, hogy miert ill. miert nem.

Tisztelettel,

O'dor Tibor


Ps.: Jeszenszky akarmit is irt _megjelent_.

Tiztelt halgatosag:

Johogy szotatok mert mar irtam, de nem mindenki olvas, hogy nekem
semi kozom nincsena Toth Judith-oz aki a 24.orat csinali.Semi rokonsagba
vagy ismerecsegbe nem vagyok sevele, se nem a csalagyaval.A Nemzet es
a tobi ujsag tizta kulon dolog, semi kozuk.

Magyart igasz hogy nem hasznalom gyakran es hat rosdas.  Ha fontos
jon fel, ra mondom a tape re angolba es mekerem egy gyereket hogy
fordicsa at.Most is lehetne szolni hogy egy gyerek fesulye ki,
diszicse ki de ma nem tudok ijen dogokal sok idomet totteni.
Tetyetek be a masinaba ahogy van aszt kesz.Csakakor szojatok ha
elszalad a lu.Tietek a gyeplo ha balag.

Bisztos nem tugyak azok meg aszt sem hogy csak Los Angeles ben is
hany Toth van. Nem mind ugyan az.Engem meg ma sok mindenkinek nesztek
de Judith-nak meg sosem. Man csak a bajszom miat se.Hungarista meg
mas szidalomok amikel tele szorni akarnak penig nem votam sose, aszt
jo tugyatok.Man nem is leszk.En man csak aszt akarom megelni hogy
Kun Bela bolsevikijei takarogyanak harmatszor is az en os regi fodem
birtokarol.Korab is vot gane, de enyi nem vot.Edig leg alab az
Arpad Haz kirajainkat bekebe hatytak.Harom a magyar igassag. Sokba
jon ez most is, de mekkel torteni.Isten nem neszheti eszt csakugy.

Isten megalgya minda tesveremet
a nemzetbe
- Joseph Toth

, why do you think that the 
world owes anything to Hungary?
Do you think if we call '56 a freedom fight against the 'Evil Empire'
it would put any obligation on onyone?

Do you really believe that if all of us in one voice would declare
'56 whatever you want it to be called, the West will fall on its knees
with tears in its eyes:
   - "Forgive me, the stupid ignorant West!  Now, I know
       Hungary made the first deadly stab at the 'Evil Empire'!   
       Let me express the West's gratitude by forgiving all of
       Hugary's loans, or something."

You also seem to draw a line between:
Loyality to Hungary vs. Loyality to the Hungarian Nation.
Do you believe in the existence of the Nation-State?  How would
you define who belongs and who does not to the Nation?
Where do you draw the line?
I bet you have a certain set of criteria or test to
decide whether X.Y. deserves to be called The Member of the
Nation.   Please share it with us so everyone could decide
what side of the turf he/she is.

      Peter Revesz
      


 wrote:
: Sure, number one pathological liar is E. Balogh herself, but
: at least she has the right for self-defense. If she cannot
: talk herself out from "Freedomfight denial" she is clearly
: an outcast of decent societies everywhere who KNOW that 1956,
: indeed, was a heroic Freedomfight against the Evil Empire, for
: which the world still owes Hungary. (For an internal revolution
: the world owes nothing -- this is why E.Balogh denies Freedom-
: fight, and accepts only the revolution.  Eva Balogh is NOT on
: the side of Hungarians, she is on the side of internationalists)

: Who else would be crazy enough to back repeat-Marxist Eva Balogh
: in her lie of Revolution or Freedomfight? (It was NEVER either-or;
: the accepted definition of 1956 is "Revolution AND Freedom Fight").

: Take for instance Istvan Szucs. Apparently, he is not crazy enough
: to deny either revolution or freedomfight (he writes "I am not saying
: this because I disagre with your evaluation" - though he does appear
: to support the "either revolution or freedomfight", he has yet to
: be on record for "revolution and freedomfight").

: Why is Istvan Szucs such an ardent defender of Eva Balogh on this
: issue, if he himself disagrees with Balogh's "Freedomfight denial"?

: Simple. Istvan Szucs is a defender of the DOUBLE STANDARD, and thus
: speaks up for those (Eva Balogh) whose contribution to propaganda is
: to do lip service (paid or unpaid) to maintaining a double standard.
: Hungarians must accept standards imposed on them from the outside,
: yet should be disqualified even of using the SAME STANDARDS when it
: comes to defend themselves.

: The issue therefore is LOYALTY to the Hungarian Nation -- that
: Eva Balogh as an indoctrinated Marxist in her youth and indoctrinated
: internationalist thereafter NEVER HAD (was indoctrinated to dispise
: Nation and whatever comes with the concept), and Istvan Szucs is loyal
: only to HUNGARY (as he wishes to claim the country to them) and displays
: no loyalty to speak of to Hungarian Nation.

: This is why these characters would like to see Hungarian Nation
: destroyed, since their lack of loyalty would thus be meaningless.
: They can't wait till the moment when "Soc.culture.magyar" becomes
: "soc.culture.centraleuropean".

: I suggest they do exactly that -- establish THAT list and let
: "soc.culture.magyar" unsabotaged, let it serve the goals of strenghtening
: the Culture of Magyars, that is one of the pillars of Hungarian
: Nationhood.

In article >,
 wrote:

> Tiztelt halgatosag:
> 
> Johogy szotatok mert mar irtam, de nem mindenki olvas, hogy nekem
> semi kozom nincsena Toth Judith-oz aki a 24.orat csinali.Semi rokonsagba
> vagy ismerecsegbe nem vagyok sevele, se nem a csalagyaval.A Nemzet es
> a tobi ujsag tizta kulon dolog, semi kozuk.
> 
> Magyart igasz hogy nem hasznalom gyakran es hat rosdas.  Ha fontos
> jon fel, ra mondom a tape re angolba es mekerem egy gyereket hogy
> fordicsa at.Most is lehetne szolni hogy egy gyerek fesulye ki,
> diszicse ki de ma nem tudok ijen dogokal sok idomet totteni.
> Tetyetek be a masinaba ahogy van aszt kesz.Csakakor szojatok ha
> elszalad a lu.Tietek a gyeplo ha balag.

et citera, et cimbalom


ha ha ha ha ha
ROTF!!!

ez jo voot pelionisz ba'... haat akor indoljunk.... a nepies iranba, na!
csak rosdasan, rosdasan!

heh
ef

-- 
NWHQ
http://www.knosso.com/NWHQ/

In article >,
 > wrote:
| 
| Take for instance Istvan Szucs. Apparently, he is not crazy enough
| to deny either revolution or freedomfight (he writes "I am not saying
| this because I disagre with your evaluation" - though he does appear
| to support the "either revolution or freedomfight", he has yet to
| be on record for "revolution and freedomfight").
| 
If you insist I can go on record as revolution and
fredomfight and probably lots of other things.  the 1956
revolution was all of those. , but this is completely
independent of the point I was  making, and where we disagree.

| Why is Istvan Szucs such an ardent defender of Eva Balogh on this
| issue, if he himself disagrees with Balogh's "Freedomfight denial"?
| 
| Simple. Istvan Szucs is a defender of the DOUBLE STANDARD,


I am a denier that there is a double standard. Of course
this point uyou have so far failed to address, you just keep
repearting the same thing as a record that got stuck.
THis may be a good way to teach parrots, but it is not a
good way to convince peopel who think. 

 and thus
| speaks up for those (Eva Balogh) whose contribution to propaganda is
| to do lip service (paid or unpaid) to maintaining a double
standard.

For the n+1th time ther is no double standard. I have
exlained why ther is no double standard. If you disagree,
lets talk about whether or not there is one, but you cannot
pretend that that point was never made without losing
credibility while proving that you have read the article.

| Hungarians must accept standards imposed on them from the outside,
| yet should be disqualified even of using the SAME STANDARDS when it
| comes to defend themselves.

Noone said Hungarians must accept standards imposed on them
from the outside. Of course this staement is pretty vague,
but especially in what you call the 1956 revolution there is
no standard imposteed from the outside.  Please note that I
am not on the outside and I am not imposing any standard,
not even atte mpting or wishing to do so.
I don't see how self defense is an issue here, since there
has been no attempt to harm Hungary or its interests, there
is simply nothing to defend against./

| 
[...]
| 
| This is why these characters would like to see Hungarian Nation
| destroyed, since their lack of loyalty would thus be meaningless.
| They can't wait till the moment when "Soc.culture.magyar" becomes
| "soc.culture.centraleuropean".

I have not committed any la act of unloyalty to Hungary. I
am loyal, and your whole paragraph above is therefore
meaningless. Again, if you fa disagree I would like to hear
what act of unloyalty I have committed.  Since I am goin g
back to Hungary on Thursday, I would like to hear it by
Wednesday , so I have a chance to respond to it, especially
since this accusation is one I take very personally. 
| 
| I suggest they do exactly that -- establish THAT list and let
| "soc.culture.magyar" unsabotaged, let it serve the goals of strenghtening
| the Culture of Magyars, that is one of the pillars of Hungarian
| Nationhood.



And let you be the judge of what that is and shove
disagreements under the rug, or just excommunicate those who
disagree with you from the Hungarian nation.

Just WHO do you think you are?

Istvan

In article >,
 > wrote:
| Tiztelt halgatosag:
| 
| Johogy szotatok mert mar irtam, de nem mindenki olvas, hogy nekem
| semi kozom nincsena Toth Judith-oz aki a 24.orat csinali.Semi rokonsagba
| vagy ismerecsegbe nem vagyok sevele, se nem a csalagyaval.A Nemzet es
| a tobi ujsag tizta kulon dolog, semi kozuk.
| 

Toth Jozsefnek elnezeset kerem. Mentsegemre legyen mondva,
hogy nem Toth Judittal, hanem a 24 oras Toth Jozseffel -
hittem hogy azonos, ezek szerint tevesen. Velemenyem a 24
oras TOthekra vonatkozott, es az valtozatlan.

Istvan