I was requested to post the following.  It was written by Anna Bayer.

Joe Szalai
--------------------------------------

One of my favorite stories about famous Hungarians:
I was born in Hungary and always I felt Hungarian and I was very-very proud
of our culture, language, scientists, musicians...

In 1989 I visited Israel and went to see Diaspora Museum in Tel-Aviv.
Suddenly I see pictures of famous Jewish musicians, scientists etc. Lots of
our Hungarians were among them. First I felt angry, how they dare to put
them as Jews as all their life they lived as Hungarians. But then I thought
about the topic: Who cares where they are coming from. The most important is
what they contributed, what they gave the World. Everybody can be proud of
them, they are "public domain"

I have been living in Israel  for 5 years now. There are people here from
all over the World. I learnt that if I like classical music or understand it
I am not more cultured then others, because Eastern music is also a kind of
very valuable contribution to World's mucic sounds. I only do not understand
it. So I am not superior at all, I do not understand sg.

Sorry for my poor English.

Best regards
Anna Bayer
________________________________________
Anna Brunner Bayer
The SELA Group
10, Ha-Kishon St.,51203 Bnei Brak,Israel
Phone: 972-3-6190999, Fax: 972-3-6190992
Location: http://www.sela.co.il:8080/
Email:

I really agree with Eva Balogh's response on this matter.

Peter Soltesz wrote:

>The the US and hopefully elsewhere one can be (and is) protected under the
>law.  This does not mean that gays, for example, are allowed to marry, collect
>insurance....

What laws are you talking about?  Gays often have no protection regarding job
discrimination, being denied housing, harassement...  Does that all have to do
with only marriage????  States like Oregon and Colorado even have tried to pass
 laws ensuring gays don't become recognized as a group worthy of protection.

>Why is it that for eons there was this "prejudice" against them (gays)?
>Answer because the fact that NO religion has ever tolerated it. It is consi-
>dered a trend against god and nature.

***
WHAT? Religion is a power structure. Homosexuality has been in every culture
for eons (Greeks, Indians, Mayans,...) whether or not the big-boys playing god
with their priests and game rules admit it.  It may not be in the Bible, but
it sure is in human nature!  Even dogs, rabbits and dolphins display it.

The Bible mentions incest and the stoning of women numerous times.  Blacks have
the "Mark of Hamm(sp?)," slaves should be treated well, and in ONE of the many
interpretations of a story with Lot, he sent one of his daughters out to be
raped!  Gee, so do these ancient affirmations of abusive habits mean they are
justified? Holy Abraham even abandonned ONE of his two wives (the bloody biga-
mist!) in the desert!  TRADITIONAL FAMILY VALUES!  ... but god thought that was
o.k..

Remember the discussion on the primitive tribes?  Well, again, no one really
knows what any god thinks, because people seem to just make rules up then shove
god's ass on it as a sign of power and approval.  Ancient societies had their
own survival as a top priority, so officially breeding was encouraged and acts
that threatened this were discouraged.

Furthermore, up until very recently social pressure demanded people conform or
face bad consequences.  So, after hearing everyone say something is wrong, many
people will say nothing for a long time and just let the prevailing attitude
survive.  That does not make a wrong thing correct- it simply means the bad
attitude can survive for a long time.


*****

Most child molestors are heterosexual, the rape of women is heterosexual,
 incestis so often heterosexual, spouse abuse, marriages of convenience.... wit
h
 all
these problems, why not outlaw heterosexuality? (Because that would be ridicu-
lous!... and everyone is used to hearing about rape, spouse abuse....) Why are
 gays looked at as the being bad guys?  Allowing gays to exist in peace, DOES
 NOTmean that heteros have to live in danger or become gay themselves.
 Heterosexualsoften display much lewd behavior and that does not thrill me
 either.     Do you think a gay person needs to kiss in public or ask for oral
 sex from everyone on the street? What is this lewd behavior you're so concerne
d
 about?  I find no
offense in seeing two people hand in hand or exchanging a kiss.

- Mark

Joe...
Life is full of choices. One has to try to pick the correct ones. Each
and every choice one makes has some predetermined result. Some people can
see that and others cannot. If the choice is wrong then you have to live
with the consequences. If one choses to be gay and that (assuming) is the
wrong choice in the world then one has to take the consequences.

If one decides to run someone over with a car because one is angry as
hell and then kills that person, it was a chice that one makes. The
consequences (at least till now) would be that that person needs to go to
jail and pay for their wrong choice.

BTW: I do not believe that being gay is something you are born with -- it
is a choice. Stating it as Eva Balogh put it is just an escape from reality.
Peter Soltesz

On Thu, 22 Aug 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 05:09 PM 8/22/96 -0700, Eva Balogh, responding to Peter Soltesz, wrote:
>
> >A homosexual doesn't chose his sexual orientation.
>
> Obviously, I agree, but I'd like to ask this.  What if sexual orientation
> is, indeed, a choice?  Should choice be respected?  And should all choices
> be equal under the law?
>
> Joe Szalai
>

As a final note to Mr. Soltesz's comment:

"... the ultimate truth always comes out in the end..."

I still would like to know when the end is. Christianity was once a pillar of
France, but now France couldn't be bothered by religion.  Does that prove the
farce of the Church?  Has the end by which we should judge things already
occurred?  I read your explanation, but if a Christian says we can live eternal
-
ly, then we have no end.  Our time is never up.  Maybe Earth is just a low
stage on our development.

Maybe we should look at it this way, too:

I feel that people finally supporting the rights of others who have been
ignored for a long time (even eons) shows that the truth comes out in the end.
 This includes women, Jews, and gays who all were often openly denied rights an
d
even despised because of people's hates, greeds,.. and "god's authorization."
Do you not feel that this is a development showing that now the truth is coming
out??  Now that different societies are recognizing gays and rights for women
that this is the truth that you say will come out in the end!?!

The end.
- Mark

Mr. Soltesz,

I agree, people should be responsible for the results of their choices, but
they should at least be free to make a choice for themselves.

You choose to believe that homosexuality is a choice. If the ways of nature and
god are so strong, why is something so essential in nature as a sexual orienta-
tion supposedly so dependent upon choice?  Choices involve options,  so why
are some people priviledged to have this choice?  Then do you also fall in love
 with men, but just chose to be heterosexual? SO, when did YOU make the choice?

Do yo really think people choose to be a part of an abused minority?  What good
or glamour is there?

I congratulate people who chose not to live lies and build a life that is con-
structive for themselves.  Many people who are homosexual but make the choice
to try and be heterosexual are often sad and must suffer the consequences.
 TheyWANT to choose to be heterosexual, but NATURE is too strong and they stay 
a
     homosexual inside.  Just ask that homophobe of a politician from Arizona
 who
was recently pulled out of the closet!

People who try to pretend and be something they are not are escaping from
reality!

It's funny: Love is something no one has control over.  Who ever chose to fall
in love with someone?  I wish it were that simple, but we should face reality.

- Mark

A HUNGARIAN CELEBRATION
<><><><><><>><><><><><><>

For the 15 million Hungarians all over the globe, 1996 is a year filled
with celebrations of historic events --  from the founding of Hungary
to the Revolution of 1956.

Exactly 1,100 years ago seven Hungarian tribes settled in the
Carpathian Basin and established the Hungarian nation. Soon after,
with the founding in 996 AD of the Benedictine Monastery in
Pannonhalma, the tradition of excellence in Hungarian education was
established.  This event will be commemorated by Pope John Paul II
during his visit to Hungary in early September.

More recently, in our own lifetime, Hungarians demonstrated their
long-held love of freedom during the 1956 Hungarian Revolution
when they fought Soviet tyranny and through their struggle revealed
to the world, for the first time, the true face of Communism.  Of the
more than 200,000 refugees who fled Hungary at that time, 30,000
were granted asylum in the United States, and 2,000 to 3,000
chose to settle in northeast Ohio.

These three significant historic events, along with many others,
combine to form a defining tradition in which all Hungarians take
justifiable pride.  As early as 902 AD , Hungary/s first parliamentary
session was conducted on horseback in the town of Pusztaszer;
an event proudly referred to with the quote, // we had a parliament
before we had chairs. //

In  1222, Hungary authored a Bill of Rights that led continental Europe
in limiting royal power. In an age of intolerance elsewhere in Europe,
Hungary provided an early example of ethnic and religious tolerance
when, in 1568, it enacted the Edict of Torde, recognizing the rights
of all religions to exist.

In spite of those impressive achievements, Hungary has paid a high
price for its love of freedom throughout its turbulent history.  As a result,
a country whose population during the 15th century matched that of
England was devastated while protecting Europe from invading Turks.
When finally defeated, Hungary suffered under Turkish rule for 150 years.

In 1527, Hungary fell under Hapsburg influence.  Two centuries later
Maria Theresa, the Queen of Hungary and Empress of Austria,
attempted to repopulate certain parts of the Hungarian kingdom by
encouraging settlement of various ethnic groups.  Thus the ethnic
mosaic of Central Europe was enriched contributing both to the
uniqueness and the potential for volatility which characterize the
region to this day.

In the late 19th century, Hungarians fought for and eventually gained
a degree of independence within the Austro-Hungarian monarchy as
a result of the 1848 revolution.  When invited to address the
US Congress on his triumphant 1860 visit, Lajos (Luis) Kossuth,
the leader of that revolution, echoed the Hungarian conviction that
// Liberty Is Life ! //  Paying homage to this hero in 1902, Cleveland/s
growing Hungarian-American population dedicated the statue of
Lajos Kossuth, which stands in the University Circle and is regularly
visited by Hungarian dignitaries and Clevelanders alike.

At the end of World War I, Hungary lost two-thirds of its territory and
half of its population to neighboring countries.  Overnight, millions of
Hungarians became citizens of foreign countries, not because they
chose to move but because without their consent the borders were
redrawn around them.  To this day, 3.5 million Hungarians live as
minorities in Romania, Slovakia, northern Serbia, and Ukraine, and
continue their struggle to maintain their cultural identity and to
participate in governing their own communities.  Over the years,
Ohio/s large Hungarian-American population has played an active
role in assisting these efforts.

In the struggle against Communism, Hungary once again played a
decisive role when this small country of 10 million people challenged
the absolute power of the Soviet Union in the bloody revolution of 1956.
As unarmed students came face to face with Soviet tanks, may died
for the same ideal Kossuth had espoused 100 years before.

In 1989, Hungary once again responded to this call with courageous
choice of opening its western border to thousands of East German
refugees fleeing Communism.  This act eventually led to the fall of
the Berlin Wall.

Remarkable as they are, these historic events alone do not fully
define the indomitable spirit of Hungary.  During the Middle Ages,
this nation gave as many saints to the Roman Catholic Church as
it did Nobel Prize winners in the 20th century.  Among many others,
Hungarian scientists like John von Neumann, Leo Szilard and
Edward teller, composers and conductors Zoltan Kodaly,
Bela Bartok, and the Cleveland Orchestra/s own George Szell
all made outstanding contributions in their fields and represent
the best of Hungary/s cultural genius.

Today, Hungary is faced with one of its greatest challenges ever --
to build a democratic, free-market society.  The commitment to
repay the enormous foreign debt incurred by 40 years of
Communist rule is taking a heavy toll on economic growth and
social services.

However, with much of its economy privatized, Hungary has
attracted more that $13 billion since 1990, representing 60
percent of the total investment in the region. With its $550
million investment in Tungsram, Cleveland based GE Lighting
is the largest American investor in Hungary.

Although remarkable progress has been made since Hungary
gained its freedom six years ago, much remains to be done.
In this millenary year, as Hungarians everywhere prepare to
celebrate August 20, honoring Saint Stephen, the first
King of Hungary, the remarkable achievement of the past
1,100 years will provide Hungary the inspiration, confidence
and courage needed to continue to play its traditionally
important role in history.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>From the Cleveland/s The Plain Dealer - Sunday, August 20, 1996
Written by Edith Lauer, president of the Hungarian American
Coalition (in Shaker Heights, Ohio) and Andrea Lauer, director of
the Center for Independent Journalism in Budapest, Hungary.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This article was submitted by Peter A. Soltesz
Member, Hungarian American Coalition
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Eva Balogh said:
think a wrong was righted in this case. We all know about homosexual
relationships which lasted as long, if not longer, as heterosexual
marriages. I know a lesbian couple who have been living together for almost
thirty years. One can pick up the New York Times almost daily and find that
X or Y lived together for twenty-thirty years when one of the partners died.
Why shouldn't this homosexual partner have the same legal rights as the
heterosexual one? Do you find it equitable that in case a homosexual couple
buys a house together and if one is deceased the other will have to pay
inheritance tax on the half when in the case of a heterosexual couple this
is not the case? Or what about those homosexual couples who must live in
different countries because they happen to be of the same sex and the
partner cannot settle in the country because they are not married. If it was
a heterosexual couple the wife or husband would have no difficulty entering
the other's place of birth or citizenship. I know one such couple which have
been forced to live in different countries for eighteen years. Is this fair?
+ Eva...Life is not fair! It is a struggle. One needs to understand that
there is
+ a basis for life on this earth and it is the family structure.
Gays/lesbians
+ do not contribute to the generation and continued survival of the human
race.
+ It does not mean that certain rights should not be permitted, but for sure
+ certain other should not be.  For example, if I decided to state that I
want to
+ marry 100 women and that is MY definition of the family, then why could
I not
+ have family insurance, avoid inheritance taxes, etc.???? This can lead to
+ absurdity. The problem is (perhaps oversimplified) that it is wrong and
that is
+ the choice some people make. OK tbut then do not try to force wrongs
+ (whatever they may be) to be accepted by others.

Mark:
I still would like to know when the end is. Christianity was once a
pillar of
France, but now France couldn't be bothered by religion.  Does that prove the
farce of the Church?.......<snip>

What is the end (a basic question)..perhaps it is the end, or perhaps it
is an end of an era. So far only Jesus seems to know..as he died and came
back
[to my knowledge no one else made the round trip to the other side --
besides HE said that there was another world (and other era/s).

BTW did you notice that ALL those countries that could not be bothered by
religion start to fall by the wayside??? See: Great Britain, USA, France,
Germany, etc.. if they are not yet fully out they will be. There are many
examples of this in the earlier biblical history as well.
Peter

Mark:
I do not mean to belittle the argument nor the question but you said this:
I agree, people should be responsible for the results of their choices, but
they should at least be free to make a choice for themselves.

Here is a choice story that you may like:

During the era of Vietnam, a young student said I better join the armed
forces before they draft me, then I wont have a choice!
So he went around to all the branches, Army, Navy, AirForce, then finally
to the Marines:
The sarge said to him: Son, if you join the Marines, you will always have
a choice! Ya see, you can chose to go to Vietnam ro you can stay behind.
But if you choose to say behind, I cant help you. But if you go to Vietnam,
'then you have a choiuce; you can go to the front or you can stay behind.
If you stay behind I cant help you. But if you go to the front, you have
a choice. You can get shot or not. If you dont get shot, I cant help you.
But if you get shot you have a choice. You can be burried over there or
burried over here. But if you get burried over there I cannot help you.
If you get burried over here then you can be burried at home or burried
in Arlington........etc.

The student chose the marines, because he always had a choice!

Peter Soltesz

MARK SAID:
States like Oregon and Colorado even have tried to pass
 laws ensuring gays don't become recognized as a group worthy of protection.

Mark...there are many laws already on discrimination on the books both on
the Federal and State level. Why do we need more specifically for gays,
etc???
You must like lawyers a lot!

The Bible mentions incest and the stoning of women numerous times.
Blacks have
the "Mark of Hamm(sp?)," slaves should be treated well, and in ONE of the
many
interpretations of a story with Lot, he sent one of his daughters out to be
raped!  Gee, so do these ancient affirmations of abusive habits mean they are
justified? Holy Abraham even abandonned ONE of his two wives (the bloody
biga-
mist!) in the desert!  TRADITIONAL FAMILY VALUES!  ... but god thought
that was
o.k..

Good point Mark...however, it shows that God was tryoing to teach His people
and in fact if you continued...you would see that God punished the heck
out of them too!!!
Peter

>On Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:19:29 -0400, Andy Kozma >
>wrote:
>
>[....]
>
>Since this is off the topic, I won't bother to quote....
>
>I just came back from my fourth trip to Toronto (spread over 20
>years). I cannot think of a more civilized and pleasant city! What a
>delight to visit. Most impressive are the competence and kindness of
>service workers, the order, and the safety on the streets.
>
>You are lucky, Andy, to live there. Please don't tell me that that's
>just the Downtown....:-)
>
>Cheers,
>
>Bandi
>=============================================================
>      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
>      <OR>  
>-------------------------------------------------------------
>          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
>=============================================================
>Hello Bandi:I am quite happy you enjoyed your visit to Toronto.I can assure
you,it is not only the dowtown area wich is so civilised.We are quite proud
of our Greater Toronto area,wich inhabits arround 4 million people.You could
find all the colours,religions,nationality etc.here and we realy try to live
in peace with all of them.
You could heare very seldom any race or religion realated incident.Most of
the time
we balme the politicians,peacefully,and the weather for all the
inconviniences,sometimes we beef about emmigration,but then more important
things appear,like making a living.
Hope this was not your last visit,and in case you do it again,just give me a
call and I show you more of our City.
Regards:Andy.

P.S.:just give me a shout in advance.
>

At 11:39 AM 8/23/96 -0400, God fearing and fag hating Peter Soltesz, in a
response to Eva Balogh, wrote:

<castrate>
>For example, if I decided to state that I want to marry 100 women and that
>is MY definition of the family, then why could I not have family insurance,
>avoid inheritance taxes, etc.????

Given your irrational fears and phobias, you'll be lucky if you can marry
just one woman.  And if there's any justice in this world she'll turn out to
be transgendered.  (Do you know what 'transgendered' means, Peter?) Until
then, don't hold your breath, and don't give up those hand exercises that
you've become so good at.

Joe Szalai

"A man in love is incomplete until he has married - then he's finished."
             Zsa Zsa Gabor

Peter,

I liked your story about choice:  It's taught me to never choose to be a marine
!

Beware All Sterile/Impotent People, Single People and Gays: You are undeserving
because your genitals are unproductive!

How can you say that gays and lesbians do not contribute to the generation and
survival of the human race?  As mentioned before, MANY homosexuals have been
good sons/daughters, stepfathers/stepmothers, aunts/uncles, brothers and
sisters!  Therefore, would it also be good to deny rights to sterile/impotent
men and women?  In my neighborhood, there are lesbian mothers with fine, hetero
-
sexual children.  Is that not a contribution?

How can the pope explain how priests and nuns contribute to the continuation
of the human race????  They make it a sacrament not to have children!

Laws should be made to specifically include gays, because too often they spe-
cifically exclude them.

How can you say that countries that have fallen away from god all decline in
the end???  Well, please ANYONE show me what society has survived since the
beginning of time? Even the Holy Roman Empire fell and got its buttocks kicked
in!  Holy Poland got smothered by Holy Prussia and Holy Russia and Catholic
Austria...! I wish this Jesus could answer one question: Why is god so involved
in politics?  Of course, I'm sure he's probably even siding with the Republican
s
in the USA presidential elections.  Decline is a part of change.  What or who
escapes it?... besides your opinions?  <(Ha! That's just a joke.)

Your post to Eva B. regarding gays and marriage rights confused me. How can it
*logically* be argued that gays should be denied marriage rights by stating
exagerations such as "if I married 100 women....?"  No one wants to marry 100
people, they just want the right to marry the one person they want to be with!
Why throw in exagerations and/or scare theories in order to make a logical
point?

I still don't see how so much of your money will be used to support gays if the
y
receive various rights?  Gays are a MINORITY; they are not an invisible mass
just waiting to jump into everyone's home and take over all the organizations
all over the world.  Where is this major burden coming from?

It's sad how people often spend more time moaning about spending money to help
another group but at the same time support spending money for weapons research
and development... or building something on the moon.  (I don't mean you in
this statement, Peter.)

- Mark

>Mark:
>I still would like to know when the end is. Christianity was once a
>pillar of
>France, but now France couldn't be bothered by religion.  Does that prove the
>farce of the Church?.......<snip>
>
>What is the end (a basic question)..perhaps it is the end, or perhaps it
>is an end of an era. So far only Jesus seems to know..as he died and came
>back
>[to my knowledge no one else made the round trip to the other side --
>besides HE said that there was another world (and other era/s).
>
>BTW did you notice that ALL those countries that could not be bothered by
>religion start to fall by the wayside??? See: Great Britain, USA, France,
>Germany, etc.. if they are not yet fully out they will be. There are many
>examples of this in the earlier biblical history as well.
>Peter
>
>Why not Hungarians:Andy.

**********************************************************************

It's party time!

Young Hungarians' and Friends' Picnic in Washington, DC

Hungarian students and young professionals in the Washington, DC
Metropolitan Area cordially invite you and your friends to our annual
picnic. Join us for an afternoon of fun, food and music. 

Date & Time: October 5, 1996, Saturday, 1:00 pm
Place: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC (metro accessible, 
                                        next to the Hungarian Embassy)

For further information you can contact us at
email: 
www:   http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/

**********************************************************************

Buli van!

Washingtoni magyar fiatalok szeretettel meghivnak Teged es Barataid eves 
piknikjukre. Lesz etel, ital es zene.

Mikor: 1996. oktober 5., szombat, 1:00  
Hol: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC (metroval elerheto, a magyar
                                      nagykovetseg kozeleben)

Tovabbi informacioert fordulj hozzank: 
email:  
www:    http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/	
**********************************************************************

.

>Mark:
>I still would like to know when the end is. Christianity was once a
>pillar of
>France, but now France couldn't be bothered by religion.  Does that prove the
>farce of the Church?.......<snip>
>
>What is the end (a basic question)..perhaps it is the end, or perhaps it
>is an end of an era. So far only Jesus seems to know..as he died and came
>back
>[to my knowledge no one else made the round trip to the other side --
>besides HE said that there was another world (and other era/s).
>
>BTW did you notice that ALL those countries that could not be bothered by
>religion start to fall by the wayside??? See: Great Britain, USA, France,
>Germany, etc.. if they are not yet fully out they will be. There are many
>examples of this in the earlier biblical history as well.
>Peter
>
>Are the Jews in this punishment also included?Andy

**********************************************************************

It's party time!

Young Hungarians' and Friends' Picnic in Washington, DC

Hungarian students and young professionals in the Washington, DC
Metropolitan Area cordially invite you and your friends to our annual
picnic. Join us for an afternoon of fun, food and music.

Date & Time: October 5, 1996, Saturday, 1:00 pm
Place: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC (metro accessible,
                                        next to the Hungarian Embassy)

For further information you can contact us at
email: 
www:   http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/

**********************************************************************

Buli van!

Washingtoni magyar fiatalok szeretettel meghivnak Teged es Barataid eves
piknikjukre. Lesz etel, ital es zene.

Mikor: 1996. oktober 5., szombat, 1:00
Hol: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC (metroval elerheto, a magyar
                                      nagykovetseg kozeleben)

Tovabbi informacioert fordulj hozzank:
email:  
www:    http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/
**********************************************************************

.

>
>Are the Jews in this punishment also included?Andy
Yes of course!

At 10:07 AM 8/23/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:
>
>BTW: I do not believe that being gay is something you are born with -- it
>is a choice. Stating it as Eva Balogh put it is just an escape from reality.
>Peter Soltesz

        Once I have gone through the experience of discussing this matter on
the Forum where one bright correspondent compared homosexuality to
smoking!!! If I recall that super bright person was a medical doctor!!

        Peter Soltesz is simply wrong. Sexual responses don't depend on
choice. If a person is attracted to his/her own sex and not to its opposite
it is not something he/she is able to change. If you ever bothered to read
something on the subject--like life stories of homosexuals--it should be
clear to you that most homosexuals, especially looking back, knew that
something wasn't quite right when they were children: six- seven-year-old
children! So, believe me it is not like smoking: one takes up smoking,
usually as a teenager, because one is young and stupid and because all
his/her friends are doing it. And then one nice day one decides that it was
capitally stupid to start smoking and it is time to give it up. And if your
resolve is real, in a week or so the urge to smoke will cease. Homosexuality
is different. One can't just one day decide: well, I will not be attracted
to my own sex and a week later you are madly in love with a lovely woman.
Don't try to push that theory because it is so obviously wrong that you just
make yourself ridiculous for even entertaining it.

        Eva Balogh

At 09:33 AM 8/23/96 EDT, Mark Humphreys wrote:
>Homosexuality has been in every culture
>for eons (Greeks, Indians, Mayans,...) whether or not the big-boys playing god
>with their priests and game rules admit it.  It may not be in the Bible, but
>it sure is in human nature!  Even dogs, rabbits and dolphins display it.

        I as a dog breeder can attest to that. What do you mean: "even"?
Dogs are not at all discriminating when the time is appropriate. Bitches
(the name of the female dog in "dog language") are in heat twice a year. A
bitch in heat will mount another bitch and they can amuse themselves for
hours. When a bitch is in season and you don't want to have an "accident,"
you keep the males (plainly known as dogs [as opposed to bitches]) out of
the pen. The dogs (males) smell the bitch and the sexual urge propels them
to do something. So, they mount each other and amuse themselves this way,
again for hours. People who are not familiar with dog behavior are quite
shocked. By now, I just laugh.

        Eva Balogh

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:

> Peter,
>
> I liked your story about choice:  It's taught me to never choose to be a
 marine!
>
> Beware All Sterile/Impotent People, Single People and Gays: You are
 undeserving
> because your genitals are unproductive!
>
> How can you say that gays and lesbians do not contribute to the generation an
d
> survival of the human race?  As mentioned before, MANY homosexuals have been
> good sons/daughters, stepfathers/stepmothers, aunts/uncles, brothers and
> sisters!  Therefore, would it also be good to deny rights to sterile/impotent
> men and women?  In my neighborhood, there are lesbian mothers with fine,
 hetero-
> sexual children.  Is that not a contribution?

++ >Perhaps I do not know my anatomy, but the only way I heard of making
++ babies in the standard fashion still requires a man and a woman.
++ It is a contribution of sort...yet what kind of example does that give to
++ the children. I suppose that everyone will have to make up their own mind
++ on what they //feel// is correct or can figure out.

> How can the pope explain how priests and nuns contribute to the continuation
> of the human race????  They make it a sacrament not to have children!
>
++ I for one would really consider it strange to have priests be clebate.
++ If I remember my history correclty, then by going back to the Council
++ of Nicea timeframe, prior to that priests were allowed to marry.
++ I have difficulty in understanding how priests, who have not expereienced
++ marriage and children can give advice and comfort to spouses and talk
++ about how to bring up children. All theory and no practical experience!

> Laws should be made to specifically include gays, because too often they spe-
> cifically exclude them.

++ I beleie that you are incorrect...there are NO laws like that. There may
++ be laws by omission because of the definitions of marriage, etc.
>
> How can you say that countries that have fallen away from god all decline in
> the end???  Well, please ANYONE show me what society has survived since the
> beginning of time? Even the Holy Roman Empire fell and got its buttocks kicke
d
> in!  Holy Poland got smothered by Holy Prussia and Holy Russia and Catholic
> Austria...! I wish this Jesus could answer one question: Why is god so
 involved
> in politics?  Of course, I'm sure he's probably even siding with the
 Republicans
> in the USA presidential elections.  Decline is a part of change.  What or who
> escapes it?... besides your opinions?  <(Ha! That's just a joke.)
>

++ Perhaps they were not as holy as they claim...if one really looks at
++ history it sould be called the UNholy Roman Empire (with other nations
++ too).

> Your post to Eva B. regarding gays and marriage rights confused me. How can i
t
> *logically* be argued that gays should be denied marriage rights by stating
> exagerations such as "if I married 100 women....?"  No one wants to marry 100
> people, they just want the right to marry the one person they want to be with
!
> Why throw in exagerations and/or scare theories in order to make a logical
> point?

++ Perhaps you forgot about the Mormons, Islam, etc. that allow marriage
++ of up to four wifes. Yet, the USA forbids this. If I want to be
++ completely religious and if I were a Moromon, then I cannot practice my
++ religion. How many law suits and noises have you heard about them???

> I still don't see how so much of your money will be used to support gays if
 they
> receive various rights?  Gays are a MINORITY; they are not an invisible mass
> just waiting to jump into everyone's home and take over all the organizations
> all over the world.  Where is this major burden coming from?

++ With all due respect...I do not beleive thatyou have tought much about
++ the potential costs involved
.
> It's sad how people often spend more time moaning about spending money to hel
p
> another group but at the same time support spending money for weapons researc
h
> and development... or building something on the moon.  (I don't mean you in
> this statement, Peter.)

++ I agree, we are spending too much on certain things. Yet there are many
++ people who complained about sending mission to the moon, mars, etc. as
++ being excessive spending -- what do we get for it ?? type questions.
++ Yet the results of those investments are in fact coming in and the
++ practical technologies are bearing some good fruit for the human race!
++ Perhaps what is enough for me is too much for you, and vice versa!
Peter
>

Too bad that Joe Szalai has not yet learn to read ro at least understand.
I did not say anything of the sort. If youreally  bothered to read my posts
instead of just having diahreea of the mouth you may get somewhere.
Peter Soltesz

Why not Hungarians:Andy.

Why not Andy?  Perhaps you can show us all how the Hungarians are all
good and sinless -- perhaps you may find some that are or some that arent.
Peter

Don't try to push that theory because it is so obviously wrong that you just
make yourself ridiculous for even entertaining it.

        Eva Balogh

Well Eva, I am so glad that you are an expert...to me by espousing this
nonsense you look ridiculus.

It the system of things there is always a choice. One can always use
something for good or evil. All those possibilities are there. It does not
mean that it is right or OK because so many are doing it. It is unfortunate
that you have been so brainwashed by that side that you cannot think clearly.

This is just like having the Darwin theory and totally ignoring God (the
creeator) who has made those difference and not a natural selection. We have
now swung away from God completely. Do you really believe thatbeing
gay/lesbian is a normal thing? You really believe that likeing something
makes it right? Perhaps those young chiuldren had some bad experiences
with the opposite sex??  Your argument is just like the following:
Oh the poor boy killed someone because he saw it on TV (and he does not
have the basic morals to know better). So please forgive him!! Oh poor boy!
The fact is that it is wrong and he has to learn to pay for it.

I am just trying to clearly state that I am not trying to bash anything or
anyone...all I am trying to state is that in my opinion and in many
others' it is not right. It does not make you less intelligent or
whatever. It jusy means that you are sinning. That is between you maker
and yourself. Yet I will not condone your actions, I will protect those
who wish to know the truth. yes, I am sure that the truth hurts and it is
much easier for you all to attack me or those who are opposed in their views.

Time will come when what you say and do will catch up with you. The
ultimate truth will stay just that and nothing you or I can say or do will
ever change that. It is easy for you to cite certain observations in
animals. Are YOU animals or HUMANS..there is supposed to be something
special in each and every one of us that knows tha truth. It is very easy to
fall pray to erroneous and fanciful ideas -- especially ones that are
wrong and appealingly exiting for some! It does not make it right.

I guess according to Eva...we are not better than dogs!

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> At 09:33 AM 8/23/96 EDT, Mark Humphreys wrote:
> >Homosexuality has been in every culture
> >for eons (Greeks, Indians, Mayans,...) whether or not the big-boys playing
 god
> >with their priests and game rules admit it.  It may not be in the Bible, but
> >it sure is in human nature!  Even dogs, rabbits and dolphins display it.
>
>         I as a dog breeder can attest to that. What do you mean: "even"?
> Dogs are not at all discriminating when the time is appropriate. Bitches
> (the name of the female dog in "dog language") are in heat twice a year. A
> bitch in heat will mount another bitch and they can amuse themselves for
> hours. When a bitch is in season and you don't want to have an "accident,"
> you keep the males (plainly known as dogs [as opposed to bitches]) out of
> the pen. The dogs (males) smell the bitch and the sexual urge propels them
> to do something. So, they mount each other and amuse themselves this way,
> again for hours. People who are not familiar with dog behavior are quite
> shocked. By now, I just laugh.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>

George Frajkor >

George Frajkor you are RACIST, NAZI.

Just think about the great Slovak musicians, how they respected
and portrayed the national image and feeling of your neighbor
Hungarians. Your entire culture is impregnated with that spirit
and system of values.

You are sick and if majority of the Slovaks on this news group
are as you are , and this is what appears to be the case reading
the postings,  then fore sure you do not deserve what you get
at Trianon.

You are not fit to be a part of Europe.

Your kind should be sent to the Siberian woods. There Carpatians
woods are to close to the civilization and the forest is not deep
enough.

All your cited facts are tendentious, they are maliciously wrong.

I would post and archive your communications with all the NAZI haunting
organizations and databases.

I am sure that the time will come for you to sweat for your stance.


A. Albu

Dear fellow Netizen,

In advance, I apologize for the crossposting but I think this
issue may be of interest to this forum, too.

Slovak-L is a mailing list created by Mr. Frajkor himself to
promote hatred, extreme nationalism and rehabilitation of the
Slovak fascism. Mr. Frajkor, a professional propagandist, is
routinely having recourse to various tricks from the lowest
arsenal of a bad journalist, such as purpose lies, falsifications
and other manipulations.

This weekend, I will address some recent defamatory allegations of
Mr. Frajkor that will, as a side product, demonstrate his use of
the abovementioned tools.

The articles will appear in Slovak-L only and will not be crossposted
in order to preserve bandwith and people's adrenaline. Mr. Frajkor
already is an unwelcome person in a number of forums.

Slovak-L can be read either as a newsgroup
       bit.listserv.slovak-L
or can be subscribed to by sending a message to
       
with an empty subject line and the body of the message as follows:
       SUBSCRIBE SLOVAK-L First_name Name.

Roman Kanala

In article >,  (ANDREW
ROZSA) writes:
>On Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:43:29 -0400, Joe Szalai
> wrote:
>
>>At 05:28 PM 8/18/96 -0700, Eva Balogh, in Re: Toronto, wrote:
>
>>[.....]
>>>difficulties learning a new language. Or, those with a cultural superiority
>>>complex--see, for example, the French.
>>
>
>I also submit that the arrogance of the French is unmatched on this
>planet.
>


True that the French MEDIA and the PARISIANS may often be arrogant,
pretentious, disdainful and ridiculous. Especially the right-wing fellows.

But not all French people are like that.

And some EVEN speak foreign languages, as you can see.

(But sorry, my hungarian is inexistent, because all my friends
are in Slovakia). However if I had time I'd learn a bit of Hungarian.

___________________________________________________________

Marc GELGON
IRISA, Campus de Beaulieu                               Email : 
r
35042 Rennes cedex              Tel   : 99.84.74.32
France.
____________________________________________________________

At 10:07 a.m. 8/23/96 Peter A. Soltesz wrote:

>Life is full of choices. One has to try to pick the correct ones. Each
>and every choice one makes has some predetermined result. Some people can
>see that and others cannot. If the choice is wrong then you have to live
>with the consequences. If one choses to be gay and that (assuming) is the
>wrong choice in the world then one has to take the consequences.
>

I think here one has to distinguish between two kinds of consequences of a
choice.  The first kind, happens because of the way the material world is
structured.  If I choose to walk in a swamp, I take the risk of drowning in
quicksand, if I choose to climb Everest, I risk death from a hundred
causes, if I choose to walk in a desert, a rattle snake may bite me.  Other
consequences are not 'natural' in this sense, they are the result of the
sum of my choice and the choice of others.  Most of what homophobic people
claim are the consequences of homosexual behavior, are these later kind.
That is, homosexual behavior in itself has fewer consequences then
heterosexual behavior.  For example, no one has yet got pregnant from
homosexual encounters.  Being discriminated against if one is gay, is a
consequence, but the discrimination is a consequence of the behavior of the
discriminators as well as the discriminated against.

>If one decides to run someone over with a car because one is angry as
>hell and then kills that person, it was a chice that one makes. The
>consequences (at least till now) would be that that person needs to go to
>jail and pay for their wrong choice.

But how are acts of love between consenting adults that do no objective
harm to anyone to be compared to choices that cause the death of others?


>
>BTW: I do not believe that being gay is something you are born with -- it
>is a choice. Stating it as Eva Balogh put it is just an escape from reality.
>Peter Soltesz
>

I think the jury on this issue is out, though the evidence has been tilting
toward at least some degree of biological determination.  I suspect that
all humans are capable of homosexual behavior, heterosexual behavior, and
celibacy to various degrees.  Different people find different behaviors
more or less congenial.  Some people find intimacy with same sex
individuals more prefferable then intimacy with the opposite sex.  Maybe
some of these people can be intimate with opposite sex individuals, but
some of them, obviously would find it as difficult as you or I might, if
homosexual behavior was expected and heterosexual behavior was considered
repulsive.  Imagine, if the population of the world doubled 'cause of all
the damn breeders like us, what would be considered 'moral' then?

In brief, the degree of difficulty  of behaving counter to one's
orientation must vary as well as the orientation itself.  Some people find
celibacy perfectly fine and can tolarate it or may even preffer it, this
was considered a gift by St. Paul and Jesus.  Some of us are 'driven'
towards intimacy with others.  No one who has ever fallen in love can doubt
the force of the drive (or whatever it is).  Our tribal taboo against
homosexuality was functional, when relatively dense occupation of land was
naturally selected for.  With five billion plus population on the planet
and a consumption level of resources greater then in the neolithic by a
factor of a thousand or more per individual, this tribal taboo is useless
and meaningless and probably dangerous.  Why continue it?

Christians, Islamic People and Secular Europeans have gone all over the
planet trampling the tribal taboos of all other peoples.  Here in B.C. they
chopped totem poles as idols (they were not) and prohibited potlatches by
inprisonment and continue to mow down the ancient forests at will and strip
mining the fish from the ocean that was the wealth of these people.  So if
your tribal taboo gets transgressed for a change, live with it!  At least,
no one forces you to participate, which is more then many women of whatever
orientation can say.

Tibor Benke

Peter:

You earlier stated that homosexuality is against god and nature.  I then men-
tioned observations of homosexuality in nature in order to show that YES it is
a part of nature.  Eva B simply gave a good concrete example of it.

Furthermore, love and intelligence is what I was often told separate humans fro
m
other animals.  Well, why do homophobes then insist that when it comes to sex
everyone should automatically want only the other sex?  A human can love and
have the intelligence to go beyond to basic functions of genitalia.

You talk of sin, sin, sin.  Well, quote if you are a Christian PLS quote me
where Christ says homosexuals are sinners!!  No Old Testament tribal codes pls.
In Leviticus which is simply a group of social rules it is also a sin to shave
and to touch leather.  Therefore, do you shave???  Would you ever allow child-
ren to play football?  How do you classify what is a sin and what is not?? The
story of Sodom & Gomorrah is trash as I have already stated in earlier postings
.
So, please give me the quotes.

Peter, ALL nations have fallen.  Why can't you say that is just the nature of
things?  Why does god have to come in to it?  Maybe they all fell, because as
you earlier stated, they didn't properly sanction homosexuality!

God is used for ignorance.  If the creation of the world is too difficult to
explain people just stick a god on to it and say he created it. The Vikings,
Aztecs, Romans, Christians all do it.  At least Darwinists take an appreciative
look at nature and try to build a logic.  I don't agree with a lot regarding
evolution, but it's good to see people trying to understand their world instead
of following some bogus religious text hook, line and sinker.

Nobody ever answered my earlier question: Suddenly, after centuries, the Cath.
Church decided that "oops, St. Christopher doesn't exist anymore!"  Well, who
than should be given credit with having answered all the prayers he supposedly
answered? Gilgamesh or Ra?

(This message will be cont'd.)
- Mark

Tibor Benk's interesting reply was good to read.
Tibor, you brought up some ideas that may or maynot be fy=ully correct.
The taboo for example in the Catholic Church is NOT to have any birth
control (although nature has given women some protection agains being
constantly pregnant -- but no protection against rape [ a criminal act].

I find it interesting that you define some of this as taboos (as in
tribalistic) yet I want to share with you an experiement with newly
born puppies, cats, and other animals of sort. They place them on a
checkerboard square that have alternae black & white boxes with a big
chasms between one end and the other. Apparently only a few day old puppies
actually fall. ALL of the others actually stop to prevent them from falling
down this three foot deep chasm. No one has tought them to be afraid, yet
they have this natural fear.

So if you want to go ahead and break all the taboos, please do go ahead.
Some of us have certain innate fears or knowledge that certain things are
not to be.
Peter Soltesz

Hi again Peter,

Yes, a man and a woman are required to make a baby... BUT more than baby poppin
g
is necessary to make a society.  It also needs caring, nuturing, constructive,
and responsible people.  Is a person uncapable of these virtues if they fall in
love with someone of the same sex?  Please answer.

Why are you so afraid of children knowing that there are homosexuals?  When wil
l
they find out about reality?  If heterosexuality is so natural and sanctioned b
y
god, then why are you so scared it will disappear?  You should give nature some
credit... or god.  I am sure there are gay children who would like to know of
healthy, constructive gay role models!

If the Church can't even make up its own mind re: the celibacy of priests and
nuns, how I can trust them in other matters?  Jesus, and they dare tell me they
hold the constant truth of all ages and can tell me how to lead my life!!

REMEMBER: If a person or group is not recognised, how can the be protected by
          the law?  You know: What Jewish problem?  What Hungarian problem?...

Yes, gays need the protection of laws.  If they already have the rights and are
so cozy, why does it then disturb you to confirm it and put it in clear writing
?

Oh, the Mormon Church! Ha!  In the early 1970's they finally decided that god
allows Blacks into heaven!  They also discourage polygamy now.  They DID have
their laws that protected them in Utah.  Also, polygamy was permissable only
under certain circumstances I think.  For example, many men died during the
journey West, so other men could marry and mate with the widows.  That's no
longer a need. I lived for a while in Muslim Tunisia, and I never knew of anyon
e
with several wives.

Yes, Peter, I am right.  There are laws that support the discrimination of gays
.
Just look at the boyscouts.  Also, harassment in the workplace against gays is
often allowed by law, because there are often NO LAWS to protect them.

Yes, I have thought about the costs involved.  That's why I think it is absurd
to mention it.  Like I said before, we could all then save costs by not allowin
g
anyone to get married!  But then again, look at all those jobs that were lost
when women entered the work force... not to mention Blacks.

Thank you,
Mark

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Roman Kanala wrote:
> Slovak-L can be read either as a newsgroup
>        bit.listserv.slovak-L
> or can be subscribed to by sending a message to
>        
> with an empty subject line and the body of the message as follows:
>        SUBSCRIBE SLOVAK-L First_name Name.

 I should add my customary note about the unreliable (typically much slower
than email, and not infrequently losing articles altogether) propagation
of posts via the bit.listserv gatewaying mechanism - which I found even
lot worse in the case of Slovak-L when checked that out than with
HUNGARY, the problems of which had been mentioned here earlier. So if one
wants to be sure to get all posts the email subscription is much recommended!
 I should also warn participants that crossposts (which apparently started
to happen between b.l.h and b.l.s-l with increasing frequency) between
gatewayed lists work particularly poorly - the email side, unlike in the
case of Usenet news, doesn't even see that the piece was crossposted, and
the chain of followups is being broken up at each steps.

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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ESB:
>
> At 06:39 PM 8/19/96 -0400, Zoli Szekely wrote:
> >The following poem (I put here in some PARTS) is very typical
> >about the handling of Heidegger and his philosophy, directly
> >connecting child murder by the Nazis in 1943 in Terezin,
> >Czechslovakia to him and his philosophy, and calling him
> >'small' because of that.
> >
> >(Now, you show me similar poem about Lukacs and the GULAG??)
> >
> >                                                    Sz. Zoli
> >
> >A poem by Maria Bonn
>
>         whoever Maria Bonn is.

I have no idea who is Maria Bonn. But her ugly little piece is
up there on the Heidegger home-page called Ereignis.

(See at:         http://webcom.com/paf/ereignis.html         )

Who put it up there and why? It is the question, my friends in
the Internet.
                                                      Sz. Zoli

Sam:
> One of these days you may learn to
> appreciate people like Heidegger without glossing over their faults.
I do not need your advice in appreciating Heidegger.
Heidegger is rooted so deeply in the European culture
that we don't need, thank you very much, culturally
challanged advices from over the sea.

As about faults, well, everybody may have faults.
Even a Heidegger. But putting him and his philosophy
on the flames of a self-indulged entellectuel witch-
hunt is a different story.

> Until then, you'll remain an idol-worshipping little weenie. Got that?
> Sam Stowe
One day you may have a chance to understand what kind
of idols you worship. The American culture is more
like idol-worshipping than the European.

I'm just over celebrating 11 hundred years of my people
in Europe. And in Hungary it is a reason to celebrate.
In the U.S. you may celebrate the birthday of Mickey
Mouse, as comparable?
                                             Sz. Zoli

ESB:
>
> The number of people who lost their lives after
> August 1, 1919 as a result of reprisals, without the benefit of the courts,
> is estimated anything between 2,000 and 5,000. (The high number comes from
> the same Peter Gosztonyi whom you quoted on Lukacs's role in the
> executions.) And even if we deem these numbers too high (as I do), I assume
> you would consider the role of those who committed those crimes just as
> terrible as that of Lukacs's.
And vice versa?                            Sz. Zoli

> Or, I hope that that is the case.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

 I just happened to check back into this thread (which IMHO has long
become so low in signal-to-noise that I wasn't following ;-():

On Fri, 23 Aug 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:
>[PAS] earlier stated that homosexuality is against god and nature.  I then men
-
> tioned observations of homosexuality in nature in order to show that YES it i
s
> a part of nature.

 While I don't feel like picking up this rubber bone again ;-), interested
parties who read Hungarian might want to check back into the SZALON (or
was it VITA ?) archives a year or two ago when I cited a couple of rather
interesting references to scientific observations of homosexual behavior
among a variety of animals, including primates.
 Incidentally, I also argued that "homophobism" doesn't really exist the
way 'homophiles' claim it does ;-<...
 Yet more incidentally I also quoted statistics that the total incidence
of human anal intercourses is estimated several times as high in the
heterosexual population (making hetero women the sexually most HIV-risk
exposed segment) than among homosexuals.

 But in all honesty I can't find a good reason why all this would belong
in the HUNGARY list.
 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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Amos:
>        You guys either have  not been in a war or  you pretend you
>     have not been in one.  War is not a debating society nor is it
>     a democracy.  War is HELL!
You're right. Just read a couple of stories how Russian Commisars
made the 1918-20 Civil War in Russia a "HELL" for everyone.

>     Still,  every commanding officer's
>     primary duty is not  to let his unit's savety  be compromised.
>     And it doesn't matter whether the danger is only perceived. It
>     is real to the person involved.
So it is legitimate to make phantoms and to kill in the name of
your phantom, isn't it?

>     Summary executions  happen on
>     the frontline all the time. If Lukacs was facing such a danger
>     he had all the right, nay the duty by the rules of war,  to do
>     what is deemed to be necessary.  And that includes summary ex-
>     ecutions.
Great news. So you agree with Lukacs who himself executed some of
his soldiers by his own pocket pistol?

>        The feeble attempt at comparison  does not serve to support
>     the biased Lukacs bashing.
You don't need to be biased. Lukacs was biased enough himself!
And you don't need bashing him. It's enough if you tell the truth
about him.
                                                          Sz. Zoli

ESB:
> The dogs (males) smell the bitch and the sexual urge propels them
> to do something. So, they mount each other and amuse themselves this way,
> again for hours. People who are not familiar with dog behavior are quite
> shocked. By now, I just laugh.
What does this have to do with people.
Could you explain, please?
(I wanna laugh, too.)        Sz. Zoli

The most superior culture is the one which if removed would affect the
most the Western Civilization.

I doubt is the Hungarian Culture, try Italian.


A. Albu


Arrogance is the end of wisdom.
Thats why so few are accepting you. Try to change if you want
understanding with your neighbors.

Mark Humpreys to Peter Soltesz:

> You choose to believe that homosexuality is a choice.
> If the ways of nature and god are so strong, why is
> something so essential in nature as a sexual orienta-
> tion supposedly so dependent upon choice?
I have heard about people who eat cockroaches. They just like it.
(And say, yummie.) Actually, I doubt they just chose to eat
cockroaches. Maybe it is genetic... I don't know if the ways of
nature and God are so strong, why is something so essential in
nature as feeding supposedly so dependent upon choices?

> I congratulate people who chose not to live lies and build a life that is
> constructive for themselves.
I congratulate people who chose not to live lies and build a life
that is constructive for themselves. They are the real heroes of
our age (heck, out with the olympicons!), because they simply
refuse to eat potato, and they rather eat cockroach.

> Many people who are homosexual but make the choice
> to try and be heterosexual are often sad and must suffer the consequences.
Many people who like cockroaches but make the choice to try and
eat potato are often sad and must suffer the consequences,
(whatever on Earth can be those).

> They WANT to choose to be heterosexual, but NATURE is too strong and they
> stay a homosexual inside.
They WANT to choose to eat potato, but NATURE is too strong and
they stay a cockroach eater inside.

> Just ask that homophobe of a politician from Arizona  who
> was recently pulled out of the closet!
Just ask that cocko-phobe of a politician from Arizona  who was
recently pulled out of the closet, and ate a big cockroach in
public immediately! What a brave act, boy!

Etc.                                                  Sz. Zoli

ESB:
> Peter Soltesz is simply wrong. Sexual responses don't depend on choice.
Oh, Eva! I know, you had your 2 fauvorite students just out
of the closet. You remember your own story of the past in the
FORUM? Whatever happened to them. Both got AIDS and died.
Poor favourite students of yours.

Anyway, I refuse to believe you. How do you know that these
responses don't depend on choices? Did you read it in the
latest tabloid or in a reliable source? (I guess not in any
of the latter.)
                                                   Sz. Zoli

ESB:

> At 06:01 PM 8/19/96 -0400, Zoli Fekete wrote:
> >To help you see better in the Heidegger question, a message from 1989:
> >
> >                                                               (Sz.Z.)
> >SYMPOSIUM ON HEIDEGGER AND NAZISM
> >
> >Edited and Introduced by Arnold I. Davidson
> >
> >   * Arnold I. Davidson: "Questions Concerning Heidegger: Opening the
> >     Debate"
> >   * Hans- Georg Gadamer: "'Back From Syracuse?'"
> >   * Jurgen Habermas: "Work and Weltanschaung: The Heidegger Controversy
> >     from a German Perspective"
> >   * Jacques Derrida: "Of Spirit"
> >   * Maurice Blanchot: "Thinking the Apocalypse: A Letter From Maurice
> >     Blanchot to Catherine David"
> >   * Phillipe Lacoue- Labarthe: "Neither an Accident nor a Mistake"
>
>         Were the papers of that symposum ever published?
>
>         Eva Balogh

Zoli Fekete was right. His name is confused with mine here.
(Or maybe the other way around?) The above was posted by me.

Source:
Critical Inquiry Volume 15, Number 2.
Edited and Introduced by Arnold I. Davidson

See more in the Heidegger homepage (called Ereignis) at
http://webcom.com/paf/ereignis.html
                                                   Sz. Zoli

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At 21:07 20/08/96 -0400, Joe Szalai threw down the gauntlet:
>At 07:56 AM 8/20/96 -0300, Johanne L. Tournier boasted:
(not me - I never boast!)
>
><snip>
>>I can attest to the superiority complex of the French. And in there case, it
>>is not a mask for actually feeling inferior!
>
>Ok, Johanne, start attesting.

Well, for example - a couple of incidents from a trip to Paris in 1972. Have
the French changed significantly since that time? We asked directions in
French from a couple of nice-looking young ladies we met on the street. My
mother's accent was not good, but mine was fair - but when we spoke to them,
they responded by laughing in our faces. Is that rude or what?

The waiter at the restaurant where we had eaten several times tried to
short-change us. My mother asked him point-blank for the correct change, and
when he got back to the other waiters, they all laughed at him for getting
caught, and he explained that he thought we looked like we didn't understand.

This may not apply to the French outside of Paris, but the Parisians are
well known to be arrogant.

  Perhaps you can show how the French cultural
>superiority complex differs from the (perceived?) Hungarian one.

Now you put me on the spot. Notice I did not comment on the (perceived)
Hungarian superiority complex, and my experience of Hungarians in real life
is limited. I have never traveled to Hungary and have never spent a great
deal of time among Hungarians in America or Canada. Let me make an
(educated?) guess as to the nature of the Hungarian complex and the
distinction between that and the French one.

I recall it was not too long ago that somebody on this List referred to the
*infesuperiority* complex of Hungarians. I think there exists among many
Hungarians a complex combination of feelings of pride in the accomplishments
of the people, the country, and the culture and a feeling of
self-consciousness (?) caused partly by being strangers in a strange land,
as it were, and because of having the culture misunderstood by narrow-minded
chauvinists basing their judgments of what is meritorious based partly on
proximity to Anglo-American cultural centers. In other words, traditionally
the Hungarians have often been dismissed as a people, even though their
cumulative accomplishments far outweigh their relatively small numbers.

I have found that Hungarians in general seem to appreciate having a
non-Hungarian express interest in their culture and history. The attitude
that they show may be one more of *noblesse oblige* or at least good
manners, in other words, if they feel superior, they are at least courteous,
they don't laugh in one's face as the French girls did to us.

>This could turn out to be a learning experience for all of us.

Except for Joe Szalai, that is! :-))
>
>Joe Szalai

Johanne/Janka

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

Joe:

> True, most things don't have a singular cause.  But I'd still like to know
> what you mean by asymmetrical thinking and why you think it makes a lot of
> trouble.  I'm not familiar with that concept in a political context.
Asymmetry would not mean that you take position. Asymmetry means
that you force your own position over anything else without any
kind of considerations.

Fighting for the human rights of women is fine. But the feminist
agenda wants to explain the world on the sole basis of 'violence
against women', or 'sexual harrasment' or 'abusive husband', etc.
which is already beyond any real sense. It is already asymmetrical
thinking.

Fighting for the human rights of minorities is fine. But the
aggressive pushing of 'affirmative action' and the explanation
of the world on the sole basis of 'hate and frustration by the
majority groups against the minorities' is wrong. It is already
assymmetrical wordview.

Fighting for the human rights of workers is fine. But the theory
of 'class fightings', which explains history on the sole basis of
clashes between the classes, and which offers a solution as the
'dictatorship of the proletariat' is simply out of sense. It is
a bad asymmetrical philosophy, which caused countless deaths in
this Century.

And you could continue until sundown.

> >In the end of the most hated Century of the Earth you can not
> >claim, that this century was controlled by Christians.
>
> I don't know what you mean.
I mean that the 20th Century is indeed the most hated century in
the history of mankind.

> Most of the notable and notorious characters of
> this century were Christian.
Come on. You mean Ulyanoff? Who executed the Russian clergy? Or
Dzugashvili? Who sent them in the GULAG? Maybe Kun Bela, Rakosi
Matyas or Gero Erno, just to name some Hungarians? Who widely
discriminated in the work places, schools, etc. on the basis of
faith? Or probably Adolf Hitler, who worshipped satanic Teuton
'gods' and persecuted Catholics? Who are you talking about?

Geeeez, I got it! You undoubtly are talking about Bill Clinton.
He used to say: "God bless you all, and God bless America..."

                                                      Sz. Zoli

P.S. Thanks for your further math quotes. I'm really glad you
     help me to enrich my collection. I've still got some more
     spaces available for your quotes on my disk, anyway...

Something more to Sam about Heidegger and the Thechnology
(written by Samuel Ebersole):                    Sz. Zoli



Martin Heidegger

(1889-1976)

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Martin Heidegger is widely regarded as one of the central figures of the
existentialist movement and has had a major influence in the areas of
phenomenology and ontology. His seminal work, Sein und Zeit, affected the
philosophical and cultural landscape of continental Europe for decades.
Heidegger's contribution to philosophy is remarkably monolithic in its
devotion to metaphysics and ontology. Time and again Heidegger returned to
the question, "what is the meaning of being?" One of Heidegger's later works
[17], The Question Concerning Technology (1977), deals with the issue of
dehumanization in modern society, what Heidegger called the "darkening of
the world." The book was based on four lectures delivered in 1949 and
captured Heidegger's ontological approach to issues important to post-World
War Europe. Heidegger was greatly concerned about technical nihilism, and
for a time believed that Nazism could provide a solution. After the war,
Heidegger described the catastrophe as, "the confrontation of European
humanity with global technology" (Heim, 1993, p. 55). However, throughout
his work, Heidegger is careful to approach technology with neither praise
nor blame-neither as an optimist nor pessimist. Heidegger's concept of
technology is not defined by things or processes. For Heidegger,
"technology's essence is nothing technological" (1977, p. 4). Instead it is
a system, Gestell, looming but undefined (Heim, p. 57). Gestell [18],
literally "framing", is an all-encompassing view of technology, not as a
means to an end, but rather a mode of human existence. As such, the real
danger of technology for Heidegger was the process by which the machines
begin to alter our existence. According to Heim,

     What Heidegger called "the essence of technology" infiltrates human
     existence more intimately than anything humans could create. The danger
     of technology lies in the transformation of the human being, by which
     human actions and aspirations are fundamentally distorted. Not that
     machines can run amok, or even that we might misunderstand ourselves
     through a faulty comparison with machines. Instead, technology enters
     the inmost recesses of human existence, transforming the way we know
     and think and will. Technology is, in essence, a mode of human
     existence, and we could not appreciate its mental infiltrations until
     the computer became a major cultural phenomenon. (p. 61)

According to Mitcham (1994) "modern technology in particular is a revealing
that sets up and challenges nature to yield a kind of energy that can be
independently stored and transmitted" (p. 51). This is what other authors
have referred to as "productionist metaphysics." This concept of "standing
reserve", resources which are stored in anticipation of consumption, is
conveyed by Heidegger's use of the word bestand.

Heidegger's ontological philosophy has seen renewed popularity as advances
in communication technology continues to define new limits of human
existence. Two recent example of works on Heidegger are: Heidegger's
Confrontation with Modernity: Technology, Politics, Art (1994), by Michael
Zimmerman, and, RUATV? Heidegger and the Televisual (1993), edited by Tony
Fry. In RUATV?, Heidegger's metaphysics are used to explore television as a
cybernetic medium. In the essay "Switchings", Tony Fry wrote,

     With his notion of the "will to will" Heidegger prefigured much of the
     critical concern with cybernetics. He put forward an analysis that
     loaded technology with a determinate existence and an impetus of its
     own beyond any direct control of the "will to power." (p. 24)

Heidegger died in 1976, long before the personal computer and computer
networks [19], such as the Web, became a reality. However, as early as 1957
Heidegger foresaw the computer, what he called the "language machine," or
the sprachmaschine.

     The language machine regulates and adjusts in advance the mode of our
     possible usage of language through mechanical energies and functions.
     The language machine is-and above all, is still becoming-one way in
     which modern technology controls the mode and the world of language as
     such. Meanwhile, the impress is still maintained that man is the master
     of the language machine. But the truth of the matter might well be that
     the language machine takes language into its management and thus
     masters the essence of the human being. (Heidegger, quoted in Heim, p.
     8, see also p. 62-66)

In article >,  says...
>
>The most superior culture is the one which if removed would affect the
>most the Western Civilization.
>I doubt is the Hungarian Culture, try Italian.

Western civilization owes its existence to the pre-Christian Greeks.
Remove the Greeks and the whole intellectual, cultural and historical
basis for Western Civilization disappears.

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC

E.Balogh wrote:

>        I as a dog breeder can attest to that. What do you mean: "even"?
>Dogs are not at all discriminating when the time is appropriate. Bitches
>(the name of the female dog in "dog language") are in heat twice a year. A
>bitch in heat will mount another bitch and they can amuse themselves for
>hours. When a bitch is in season and you don't want to have an "accident,"
>you keep the males (plainly known as dogs [as opposed to bitches]) out of
>the pen. The dogs (males) smell the bitch and the sexual urge propels them
>to do something. So, they mount each other and amuse themselves this way,
>again for hours. People who are not familiar with dog behavior are quite
>shocked. By now, I just laugh.
>
>        Eva Balogh

Thanks Eva for the nice biology lesson, however let me ask something. Have
you ever seen male/female dogs 'amusing themselves' while the opposing sex
is actually present on the scene and 'accident' would be allowed to happen?
Also have you seen male/female dogs being 'urged' by the smell of another
dog with the same sex? If not, your example is simple the analogy of the
human 'prison homosexuality'.