Greg Grose > wrote:
>
>> ...singular event in Hungarian history exactly 1,100 years ago. ...
>                                         ^^^^^^^
>> Well, isn't it also possible that the Gesta is not to be taken too literally

There is no contradiction there, Greg.  I never advocated an
all-or-nothing proposition regarding the reliability of the Gesta
Hungarorum.  The test of what is real and what is fiction is in the
corraboration with other findings.  Some events, such as the
"Honfoglalas" have been corraborated by other sources, other have not.

If your point was to dispute the exact anniversary of the conquest,
well, the concensus of experts is that it was a process taking several
months, in 895-896 AD.  So yes, they must have been in the midst of it
EXACTLY 1,100 years ago.  For some pragmatic reason, Hungarians
celebrate the anniversary in '96.

Joe Pannon

CHARLES VAMOSSY wrote:
> 

> Of course, there is another possiblity that I do not dismiss as blithly
> as you ,do, Mr. Tuluca  that the magazine is actually on target when it
> states "In Slovakia and Romania, the old anti-democratic bully is
> emerging in democratically elected leaders:  Vladimir Meciar and Ion
> Iliescu are both roughnecks for whom opposition and minority rights are
> dirty words.  ...Both might be given the benefit of the doubt -- but the
> doubt remains."
> 
> with best wishes for the holidays,
> 
> Charlie Vamossy	My point was clear to me, but it seems not so clear to Joe wh
o 
acused me of loving my country from Ohio (even if only on a temporary 
basis, but of course he couldn't have known that) or to you. My point was 
simply that Maghyars have a very good and well conducted propaganda, and 
yes, taking advantage of other people lack of culture they can influence 
and manipulate mass media. At the same time I was hinting at the fact 
that they do it from outside the Hungary's borders, with a complete lack 
of understanding of the new realities of modern Europe. You want it or 
not borders in Europe are there to stay and I see no way for 12 mil 
Hungarians to rule 6 mil Romanians (in case Hungary could "take back its 
teritories"). The 19th century is history, and history repeats itself but 
not that frequently and wrongly. 
	I have nothing against Maghiars, as I wrote a couple of times by 
now; some of my friends are Hungarian (both from Romania and Hungary) and 
they are better persons than some Romanians I know. This is for me 
another proof that those who recently left their respective countries 
know better than those who lost touch with today's realities. I find the 
efforts of some Hungarians to denigrate Romania futile and unwarranted as 
long as we have geographically to bear ourselves. If Hungary thinks that 
the West of the Americans will place it on a pedestal as the smartest 
country in Central Europe it is dead wrong.  The people in these regions 
don't even know or care about any of our counties as long as there is no 
profit to be made. 
	And if we have to be pragmatic, Romania will always be supported 
by France, Germany and U.K. against Hungary if any real dispute arises so 
I really think that Maghiars should direct their efforts of finding a way 
to pay their external debt and quell the anxiety of those who at first 
believed their propagande and put a lot of money into Hungary. I do not 
want to engage in disputes but any keen economic observer of the region 
knows by now that Hungary was a losing bet. Do not ask me to give proofs 
and quotes because I don't have the time or the patiance. Those 
interested should do a Dialog search using key words "bussines and 
Hungary" and will see what I mean. After that they can also try "Romania 
and bussines" and they will be amazed to find out how much things have 
changed since 1990; the underdog is now a star, and its economic 
prospects are great. Unfortunately, this is not what my mother is telling 
me from Romania. In conclusion I don't care about the West of the 
Americans because I know it's in vain and life will be hard in Romania 
(and Hungary for that matter) for the next 15-20 years regardless of who 
bashes who. The only way out is to forget this stupid trashing and try to 
build some form of cooperation, maybe from two cripples we can make a 
good one.

Same best wishes for X-mas and the New Year! S.Tuluca

Please excuse my mail server: it is the latest American technology...

Lee Laborczfalvi > wrote:

>  Hi there, 
>  I am very keen to get my hands on a Hungarian Dictioanry for Microsoft 
>Word 6.0a.  If anyone knows where I can get one of these, I'd really 
>appreciate it.
>Thanks,
>Lee

There is a very good one the name is "Lektor 4.0". It works well with
ww6.0 and with some other windows applications too.
This is the copyright screen:

MICROSEC Software, Budapest 1994.
Copyright© 1991-1994 Béres T., Hámori M., Seregy L., Vanczák J.
Copyright© 1994, Scriptum Kft.


--------------------------------------
Peter Szaszvari
http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm
--------------------------------------

Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1995/11/22
Version: 1.10
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days

	Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

               TABLE OF CONTENTS

1.      News and discussion groups in English
1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute
1.2  News from Central Europe Today
1.3  The Hungary Report
1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)
1.5  MOZAIK
1.6  On USENET
1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 
1.8  , a list for Hungarian-Americans

2.      News and discussion groups in Hungarian
2.1  HIX (many groups and services)
2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle
2.3  Other discussion groups

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web
3.2  Gopher and other interactive services
3.3  ARENA

4.      The Net in Hungary
4.1  BITNET/HUEARN
4.2  HUNGARNET
4.3  FidoNet
4.4  Finding out somebody's email address

5.      Odds and ends
5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary
5.2  Conventions for coding Hungarian accents
5.3  Information sources about the rest of Central and Eastern Europe

6.      Contributors to this FAQ

7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 I know this is very long, perhaps too long for human consumption ;-).
One of the tasks for further editing is to make it more concise,
perhaps drop some parts altogether (I'd like to hear any suggestions).
You can search for the section titles listed above and skip what you
don't want, and many Unix newsreaders would jump ahead to the next one
with Ctrl-G (the format now follows the digest specification)!

------------------------------

Subject: 1.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN ENGLISH

 Note: commercial networks -- such as CompuServe or AOL -- may have
their own in-house forums relating to Eastern and Central Europe. Be
aware that those are only open to the subscribers of the particular
service, unlike the discussion groups accessible by anyone via the
Internet and Usenet! This file -- the hungarian-faq -- is primarily
concerned with resources freely available netwide.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute

 The Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest is available via
electronic mail, at no charge. The Digest covers all of the former
Soviet Union, East-Central and Southeastern Europe and is delivered in
two parts, each roughly 15 kByte in size, Monday through Friday (except
Czech holidays).

 You can subscribe by sending <mailto:>.
In the body of the message, type
 "SUBSCRIBE OMRI-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname" (leave out the quotation
marks and be sure to substitute your own name where shown).

 You can get reposts of just the items related to Hungary by
subscribing to Mozaik. See section 1.5.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.2  News from Central Europe Today

 Central Europe Today On-Line is a free daily news service covering the
important events and business news in the region. To subscribe, send
the word SUBSCRIBE <mailto:>. For more
detailed information, send a blank email message
<mailto:>.

Again, these exceed Hungary in scope, but you can get excerpts
pertaining to Hungary in Mozaik (see 1.4).

------------------------------

Subject: 1.3  The Hungary Report

 The Hungary Report is a free weekly English-language online update of
news and analysis direct from Budapest each Sunday. The Report consists
of briefs, one feature story and an expert political opinion column.
The briefs cover the most important and interesting developments in
Hungary each week, while the feature stories address variously
politics, business, economics, arts and leisure. The weekly political
column, Parliament Watch, is written by Tibor Vidos, director of the
Budapest office of GJW, a British political lobbying and consulting
firm. To subscribe, send
<mailto:> containing (in the body
of the message, not in the headers) the single word "subscribe" (no
quotes).  Or send the word "info" to the same address for further
information.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)

 This discussion list is a "kind of Internet supplement" to the column
of the same title in Budapest Business Journal; to subscribe, send the
word "subscribe" <mailto:> (you'll get help
from its Majordomo server, if needed).

------------------------------

Subject: 1.5  MOZAIK

 This is actually one of the services of HIX, meaning there's a slight
bit of Hungarian mixed in (the posts themselves are mostly in English,
but the server speaks Hunglish ;-)). MOZAIK brings you original content
(e.g. the schedule of DUNA TV, exchange rates), and digested reposts
of those news items (originating from OMRI, CET and other sources)
that bear directly on Hungary. You can subscribe by
sending a blank email message to <mailto:> and
unsubscribe by sending one to <mailto:>. See
section 3 about searching the HIX archives.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.6  On USENET

 The Hungarian newsgroup in the worldwide hierarchy is
<news:soc.culture.magyar>.  It's mostly in English, sometimes
bilingual, and occasionally Hungarian only. The group is archived 
by HIX (see its section for 'SCM') and is also readable under
<http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/>;.

 Since May 1995 Hungary has its own netnews hierachy, with the following
groups created so far (hun.lists.* are email gateways):
        <news:hun.test>
        <news:hun.news>
        <news:hun.piac>
        <news:hun.comp>
        <news:hun.general>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.forum>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.hunet>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.moka>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.otthonka>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.szalon>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.tipp>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.vita>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.otthon>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.guru>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.kornyesz>
        <news:hun.lists.katalist>

 If you can connect to a remote news server (typically by setting the
NNTPSERVER variable under Unix), then you can get hun.* directly from
news.sztaki.hu or news.iif.hu (the former has been more stable
lately). Fetching articles is much faster from a local source - ask
you system administrator if they can get a feed! In the USA the first
provider offering the hierarchy seems to be AltNet,
<mailto:> to find out about that.  There is a gopher
interface to news: <gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/11/News> (the full URL to
go straight to the hun.* groups is:
<gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/1exec%3A-g%20hun%3A/bin/gonnrp>). These groups
are also archived by HIX (see its section for 'HUNGROUPS') and they
are also readable under <http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/>;.

HIX provides a universal posting gateway to the soc.culture.magyar
and hun.* newsgroups. Use the addresses:
<mailto:>, for example
<mailto:>.

 There are Hungarian local newsgroups available through
<telnet://ludens.elte.hu>, login with username GUEST (no password), and
enter NEWS to start the newsreader (you can use the VMS online help to
learn about it). The guest account is set up for accessing
<news:elte.diaklap> (students' journal at Eotvos U.), but other
newsgroups are available as well. (But please be considerate to the
strained network resources of Hungarian sites - from abroad for
non-local news use other providers.) For ELTE-specific questions
contact <mailto:>. This server is also accessible
via remote NNTP like the two mentioned above, but is often much slower
than those.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 

  is a discussion group providing rapid communication
among those with interests in Hungarian issues. Subscribe by 
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY Yourfirstname Lastname.  Once you
have subscribed, any messages which you want to send to the group
should be sent to the group address, <mailto:>.
(This pattern of two addresses is standard: you turn your mail off and
on at the "listserv" address, and you send mail to the listname
address.  For example, to  unsubscribe, send the server the message
SIGNOFF HUNGARY.  You can temporarily turn off you mail by sending
listserv the message SET HUNGARY NOMAIL.  SET HUNGARY MAIL turns mail
back on.) By default the listserv sends out messages as they arrive,
maybe several ones on busier days. If you prefer daily digest format,
you can issue the command SET HUNGARY DIGESTS (again by sending it to
the LISTSERV address); alternatively you can subscribe to HUNGARY via
HIX as mentioned in 2.1, and receive the same format as the other lists
by HIX. LISTSERV has many useful features, most notably database search
on the list archives - to learn more about it, send commands like SEND
HELP, SEND HELP DATABASE.

 Note that the form of addressing LISTSERV lists such as Hungary may
depend a great deal on your local network configuration and mailer
software.  For BITNET mailers you need GWUVM only; the local gatewaying
to BITNET may be BITNET% for VAXMail installations and
 at other places. Ask your local network
administrator first if you're experiencing problems.

------------------------------

Subject: 1.8  , a list for Hungarian-Americans

 <mailto:> is a group providing rapid communication
mainly among those living in the USA with interests in Hungarian
issues (it has been created to serve the community mainly at the
University of Maryland and in its vicinity). Subscribe by
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY . (Notice that this is distinct
from the older LISTSERV list mentioned in 1.7 that has a broader focus
- 'the HUNGARY list' ususally refers to that latter one!)

------------------------------

Subject: 2.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN HUNGARIAN

------------------------------

Subject: 2.1  HIX

 HIX, or Hollosi Information eXchange, is a non-profit formation run
and supported by several individuals and organizations. HIX was started
in 1989/90 and now it reaches more than 10,000 readers in about 45 countries
around the World.

Its services, mostly in Hungarian, are abundant and change frequently, so
it is best to obtain an up-to-date help file by sending an email message to
<mailto:> (a recent copy of that also seems to be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/MAIN/HELP.ALL>; - but please
notice that there are superseded copies scattered in other parts in
the archive on the one hand, and many of the other files in this same
directory are outdated on the other hand; most notably, DO NOT TOUCH
that ancient version of hungarian-faq found there!). Here's a list of
what it currently offers in email digest format:

 HIR      -- 'Hirmondo', current newspaper survey edited in Budapest
 NARANCS  -- The Internet edition of the 'Magyar Narancs' weekly
 TIPP     -- politics-free questions, tips etc.
 SZALON   -- moderated political discussion forum
 FORUM    -- unmoderated political discussion forum
 GURU     -- computer-related questions
 RANDI    -- moderated personals; anonymous submissions possible
 VITA     -- moderated non-political discussion forum
 OTTHON   -- issues around the home
 MOKA     -- jokes, humor (Hungarian and other)
 MOZAIK   -- semi-regular bits of news and other info, mostly in
	     English, crossposts from the OMRI list, VoA gopher, CET
	     and other sources
 HUNGARY  -- daily digest of the Hungary LISTSERV list (see 1.7)
 SCM      -- gatewayed email digest of the Usenet newsgroup
             soc.culture.magyar 

 The following is not available for email subscription from
Hungary, but are accessible via the SENDDOC interface (or the
'finger ' service for the latest issues):
 HUNGROUPS - gatewayed email digest of the hun.* regional newsgroups

 Note that KEP (transcripts from the videotext news from Hungarian
Television's Kepujsag) has been suspended indefinitely - despite what
HIX' own HELP says.

 To subscribe (unsubscribe) to a particular email-journal, send email
to  ) where NAME is one of the
above.

 The postings for the HIX discussion lists are sent out daily in
digested form. You can send your own submission to ,
whatever NAME is (provided it's actually a discussion list).

 The volume for some of these lists is becoming rather high, e.g. TIPP
often digests dozens of messages in hundreds of lines daily!  You ought
to try targeting your audience properly in order to find those who'd
help with your questions; also keep in mind that readers often answer
to the list rather than the individual even when personal reply is
requested, so if you ask something it's a good idea to subscribe also
(even though technically it's not required) instead of just addressing
a list as a non-subscriber. A reminder to those who reply to a post:
always remember that list messages get sent to several thousand readers,
so consider personal email if the subject is not of general interest!
If you answer through a list it's courteous to send a personal copy
(Cc: with most mailers) as well - this may reach the addressee
considerably earlier than the post distributed through the list.
 Notice the (undocumented) feature of the HIX mail-server: it only
accepts submissions if its address is found in the 'To:' header field!
It would quietly ignore incoming email Cc-d to it, so do not put the
 in the 'Cc:' (you can do so with other addressees).

 The HIX server can also send out archived files, see the SENDDOC
function in its description. In case you have any problems or questions
on the HIX services, please read through the automatic help response
first. If you need human intervention you can reach
<mailto:> - but keep in mind that list managers have
to do plenty other than answering things already laid out in the Fine
Manual.

 You can also view the output of HIX interactively. See section 3.

------------------------------

Subject: 2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle

 Daily selection of articles from leading Hungarian newspapers by
the Lajos Batthyany Foundation, published by the Hungary.Network.
 
 To subscribe (unsubscribe), send email to <mailto:>
(<mailto:>). Also available in 123 accent notations
from the <mailto:> address.

 It is also readable on the WWW under <http://www.hungary.com/bla/sajto/>;.

------------------------------

Subject: 2.3  Other discussion groups in Hungarian

 A number of email lists are available from servers located in Hungary,
for directory see <gopher://HUEARN.sztaki.hu>. There are many college
publications available online as well, check out the links from the HU
homepage (see below).

------------------------------

Subject: 3. INTERACTIVE SERVICES

 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like gopher
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.

------------------------------

Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 This document you are reading now is hosted at
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq>;, and its directory
has a few other documents and several links to other sites of
interest.

 The Hungarian Home Page is at
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>; with links to the
registered Hungarian www servers, including

     - the Prime Minister's Office:  <http://www.meh.hu>; (overseas users
    please notice that the use of the <http://www.hungary.com/meh/>;
    mirror is requested to cut down transatlantic traffic!)

     - a weather forecast page (this is updated daily, and includes weather
    forecasts, meteorological maps, and METEOSAT satellite images; this
    page is in Hungarian)

     - home pages of Hungarian cities (currently Budapest, Debrecen,
    Miskolc, Pecs, Szeged), and of educational and other institutions 

     - a comprehensive list of Hungarian telnet services (e.g. library 
    databases), gopher and ftp sites (3.2). The content of almost all the 
    Hungarian FTP sites is indexed and can be searched.

 The Hungary Online Directory (HUDIR) is at
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; featuring a Yahoo-like hierarchical
database of all Hungarian online content of the World. Currently it
has links in excess of 2500.

 HIX has a WWW server in the USA: the URL is <http://hix.mit.edu>;.
To check out fresh content, see <http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/>;, which
gives you a comprehensive table of content for new material arrived in
the last 24 hours (which is typically in the order of 100-150 pages).
Besides back issues of its email journals, and a plethora of other
files in Hungarian and English, it offers an on-line English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/szotar/>; - its
European mirror is at <http://tpri6l.gsi.de/szotar.html>;), and various
home pages and pointers to other sources. Partial mirrors located in
Hungary are <http://www.eunet.hu/eunet/hix/>; (for the Magyar Narancs
archive), and <http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/>; (for some pictures, and
searching the Radir database - see below).

 Hungary.Network - The GateWWWay to Hungary at
<http://www.hungary.com/>; has a number of government, commercial and
organizational users listed.

 TourInform is at <http://www.hungary.com/tourinform/>; is the service
of the Hungarian Tourism Service, the official promotion agency of the
Hungarian Tourist Board. They offer practical information, maps,
broshures and even tours on video casette.

 The Open Media Research Institute has a WWW server, available at
<http://www.omri.cz>;.  Available at this Web site are all back issues
of the Daily Digest, tables of contents for Transition, OMRI's
bi-weekly analytical journal, and information about OMRI's activities
and staff.

 The World Wide Web server of Central Europe Today is at the URL
<http://www.eunet.cz>;.

 Find back issues of the Hungary Report on the World Wide Web at 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-report/>;. The Hungary-Online archive is
available from <http://www.yak.net/hungary-online/>; as well.

 There is a growing Hungarian resource directory at
<http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard/hir.html>;.

 There is a "Foreign Languages for Travellers" collection of essential
Hungarian expressions with English, German and French explanation,
complete with sound at
<http://insti.physics.sunysb.edu/~mmartin/languages/hungarian/hungarian.html>;.

 The American Association of Young Hungarians (AAYH) has its homepage
at <http://www.jvnc.net/~kerekes/>;.

 There are some nice pictures from Hungary at 
<http://wwwvms.utexas.edu/~HRISTOS/index.html>;.

------------------------------

Subject: 3.2  Gopher and other interactive services

 HIX has a server in the USA: <gopher://hix.mit.edu>. Its services
form just a subset of what it offers as a WWW site. RaDir is sometimes
useful for finding email-addresses, old or new friends on the Net. See
also Section 4.4.

 HIX has a gopher in Hungary as well:
<gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX>, and another mirror at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/hix> (notice that this latter uses a
non-standard Gopher port number). Check also <gopher://gopher.elte.hu>
and <gopher://gopher.sztaki.hu>. Note that gopher is essentially
text-based (thus less satisfying than the Web) but often faster
(therefore less frustrating).

 CET's gopher is called <gopher://gopher.eunet.cz>.

 HIX documents from the archives of hix.mit.edu are available via the
(Unix) 'finger' protocol. Try 'finger ' to see how it
works.  This may be the easiest and fastest access from some sites.

 There is an electronic library at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/elibhu/> (notice the non-standard port)
that has much Hungarian text material, including some classical
poetry.

------------------------------

Subject: 3.3  ARENA

 An interactive chat service of HIX, run by the Hungary.Network.
Similar to IRC, but it does NOT require any client software. Simply
<telnet:hix.hungary.com> and you are there.

------------------------------

Subject: 4. THE NET IN HUNGARY

 Overview: historically, ELLA was the first home-grown X.25
email-system in Hungary. It survives till this very day. EARN was next,
with its BITNET-like infrastructure (4.1). Full Internet connectivity
is provided by HUNGARNET (see 4.2), which really comprises all
academic, research and public non-profit sites.

 Here's a partial list of its domain names:

bme.hu          Technical University of Budapest
sztaki.hu       Computer and Automation Research Institute, Budapest 
elte.hu         Roland Eotvos University of Sciences, Budapest
bke.hu          Budapest University of Economic Sciences
sote.hu         Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
abc.hu          Agricultural Biotechnology Center, Godollo 
gau.hu          Godollo Agricultural University, Godollo
klte.hu         Kossuth Lajos University of Sciences, Debrecen
jpte.hu         Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
u-szeged.hu     Members of the Szeged University Association
bgytf.hu        Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College
uni-miskolc.hu  University of Miskolc
kfki.hu         Central research Inst. of Physics, Budapest 
vein.hu         University of Veszprem, Veszprem
bdtf.hu         Berzsenyi College, Szombathely
szif.hu         Szechenyi Istvan College, Gyor
blki.hu         Balaton Limnological Res. Inst. of Hung. Acad. Sci.

A schematic map of its topology ('HBONE'):

EBONE    EMPB                          EMPB   EBONE

  ^       ^                             ^       ^
  |       |                             |       |
  |       |   Microwave center ======= IIF Center ------- Miskolci Egyetem
  |       |      Budapest            /   Budapest            Miskolc
  |       |    //  ||    \\         /   //   |
  |       |   //   ||     MTA-KFKI /   //    L--------------- BGYTF
  |       |  //   MBK     Budapest    //     |             Nyiregyhaza
  |       | //   Godollo             //      |
  |      BME              MTA-SzTAKI//       L--------------- KLTE
  |    Budapest ########## Budapest          |              Debrecen
  |      ***                                 |
  |      ***                                 L--------------- GAMF
  L------BKE                                 |              Kecskemet
       Budapest                              |
          #    \                             L---------- Veszpremi Egyetem
          #     \                            |              Veszprem
         ELTE    \                           |
       Budapest   JATE                       L--------------- JPTE
                 Szeged                                       Pecs

 LEGEND

 ***  100 Mbps FDDI
  #    10 Mbps optical cable (Ethernet)
  =     2 Mbps microwave
  |    64 kbps leased line (that's 0.064 Mbps)

Source: HUNGARNET/NIIF (URL <http://www.iif.hu/hungarnet.html>;)

 FidoNet is described in section 4.3, and commercial
networks/email/Internet Providers demand a separate document
('commercial.FAQ'), also see <http://www.sztaki.hu/providers/>;.

------------------------------

Subject: 4.1  BITNET/HUEARN

 What follows is a listing of all EARN nodes in Hungary, with contact
info.  This information is also available on the following gopher:
	 <gopher://cc1.kuleuven.ac.be/11/nodeearn/hungary.helpnode>.

HUBIIF11 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                      
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : hubiif11.sztaki.hu                   
      User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBIIF61 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                    
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : mars.iif.hu                          
      User Info: Istvan ;+36 1 1665644
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBME11  Technical University of Budapest
     Technical University;of Budapest;Muegyetem rkp 9. R. ep;H-1111
     Budapest, Hungary           
     Internet address : atlantis.bme.hu                      
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 4632422               
     Fax : +36 1 1665711             

HUBME51  Technical University of Budapest                                  
     Technical University;Muegytem Rakpart 9;H-1111 Budapest               
     Internet address : bmeik.eik.bme.hu                     
     User Info: Laszlo ;+36 1 1812172                 
     Phone : +36 1 1812172            ; Fax : +36 1 1166711             

HUBPSZ12 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                  
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hubpsz12.sztaki.hu                   ;
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBPSZ61 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             

HUBPSZ62 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of
     Sciences;Lagymanyosi ut 11;1111 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUEARN   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary               
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : huearn.sztaki.hu                     ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 2698286                   
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUECO    University of Economic Sciences Budapest, Hungary                 
     University of Economic Sci;Computer Center;Kinizsi u 1-7;1092 Budapest
     Internet address : ursus.bke.hu                         ;
     User Info: Robert ;+36 1 1175224                    
     Phone : +36 1 1181317            ; Fax : +36 1 1175224             

HUELLA   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary           
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Node admin: Gizella ;+36 1 1497986                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGBOX   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary            
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hugbox.sztaki.hu                    ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 1497532                
     Phone : +36 1 1497532            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGIRK51 University of Agriculture Sciences
     University of Agriculture;Pater Karoly ut 1;H-2103 Godollo
     Internet address : vax.gau.hu                           ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 28 30200 -1015              
     Phone : +36 28 30200 -1015       ; Fax : +36 28 20804              

HUKLTEDR Kossuth Lajos University Debrecen, Hungary                       
     Internet address : dragon.klte.hu                       ;
     User Info: Robert                           

HUKLTE51 Kossuth Lajos University, Debrecen                                 
     Kossuth Lajos University;Egyetem Ter 1; PF. 58;H-4010 Debrecen        
     Internet address : huni7.cic.klte.hu                    ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 52 18800                      
     Phone : +36 52 18800             ; Fax : +36 52 16783              

HUSOTE51 University of Medical Science Budapest, Hungary                   
     University of Medical Science;SOTE;Ulloi u. 26.;1085 Budapest         
     Internet address : janus.sote.hu                        ;
     User Info: Gabor ;+36 1 1141705                 
     Phone : +36 1 1141705            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866

HUSZEG11 Jozsef Attila University, Szeged, Hungary                         
     Jozsef Attila University;Computer Centre;Arpad ter 2.;H-6720
     Szeged;Hungary                
     User Info: Ferenc ;+36 62 321022
     Miklos ;+36  
     Phone : +36 62 321022            ; Fax : +36 62 322227             

------------------------------

Subject: 4.2  HUNGARIAN ACADEMIC AND RESEARCH NETWORK (HUNGARNET)

 This information is also available on
<http://www.ripe.net/ripe/hungarnet.html>;.

Organisational Structure: 
 HUNGARNET is an association and also the computer network of Hungarian
institutes of higher education, research and development, libraries and
other public collections. HUNGARNET funding comes from the R&D
Information Infrastructure Program (IIF) sponsored by the Hungarian
Academy of Science, the National Committee of Technological
Development, the Ministry for Culture and Education and the National
Science Foundation. About 500 organizations have access to HUNGARNET
services. HUNGARNET as an association represents Hungary in
international networking organizations (e.g. TERENA).

Generic Services:
 HUNGARNET provides access to the Internet and several other national
network services over leased lines and the public packet switched data
network. Lot of different services (e.g. gopher, ftp, WWW, data bases)
provided by member organizations are available on the net. Centrally
supported and coordinated services are:
 - email (internet SMPT, EARN BSMTP, OSI X.400, UUCP, XXX ELLA) 
 - email gateways between the different email systems above 
 - distribution services (LISTSERV, news) 
 - information services (ftp, gopher, WWW servers, data bases) 
 - directory services (X.500) 
 - individual accounts and login

External Connectivity:  
 HUNGARNET is subscriber to EBONE and EMPB/EuropaNET as well. There are
two 64 kbps leased lines to EBONE (Vienna EBS). These two lines should
be upgraded to a single 256 kbps line in the near future.  HUNGARNET
uses two 64 kbps interfaces on the EMPB/EuropaNET node in Budapest as
well. These two interfaces should also be upgraded to a single 256 kbps
interface very soon.

Internal Connectivity: 
 Internal connectivity of HUNGARNET is based partly on the public X.25
service of the Hungarian PTT and partly on the community's private IP
backbone network (HBONE). The kernel of the HBONE infrastructure is in
Budapest, where several important organizations are connected in
different ways (64-256 kbps leased lines, 1-2 Mbps microwave links, 10
Mbps optical Ethernet, 100 Mbps FDDI). Several cities (regional
centers) in the country are also connected to the network via 64 kbps
leased lines (Miskolc, Nyiregyhaza, Debrecen, Kecskemet, Szeged, Pecs,
Veszprem) and 2 Mbps microwave (Godollo). Now there are about 50
organizations directly connected to the backbone and about 50 others
using IP over X.25. The number of the registered, connected hosts is
about ten thousand. There is an ongoing development, new regional
centers (Kaposvar, Keszthely, Szombathely, Sopron, Gyor) and several
organizations in Budapest will be connected subsequently.  Many users
do not have IP connectivity yet but are connected to the public X.25
network. There are several services (e.g. individual login, mail,
gopher, news) that are open for traditional XXX/X.25 access.

Contact Persons:
Miklos NAGY <mailto:> - head of the HUNGARNET/IIF 
					coordination office
Laszlo CSABA <mailto:> - HUNGARNET/IIF technical director
Balazs MARTOS <mailto:> - HBONE project manager
Nandor HORVATH <mailto:> - Local Internet Registry, 
				.hu top level domain contact
IP address and domain administration: <mailto:> 
Network management: <mailto:>

------------------------------

Subject: 4.3  FidoNet

 FidoNet connects through sztaki.hu, as indicated above.

 There are three FidoNet nodes: Budapest NET (2:371/0); West Hungary
Net (2:372/0); and Tisza NET (2:370/0). If you want to write on the
FidoNet, chances are you already know how. *PLEASE* find out what you
are about to do instead of experimenting with the Hungarian net - don't
add to the problems for the folks in Hungary having to deal with the
underdeveloped phone system and outrageous international tolls ;-<. For
further information I post a Fido-sheet separately from this FAQ, where
there are also telephone numbers and further addresses, but again: try
to verify that you are mailing to a valid address (the BBS situation
may have changed since the copy you are reading got updated - look for
current FIDO listing on the net, or better yet contact the person you
want to reach by other means first)!. If you can send Internet email
and have the FidoNet address, you can write to it by transforming it to
appropriate .FIDONET.ORG format.

 Fidonet mail works with Hungarian BBS's but you have to know whom to
reach. I will attempt to maintain a separate Fido posting to Usenet;
please try to make sure you email to a valid address and in particular
avoid using outdated sources on Hungarian BBS's (otherwise your
misdirected trial will burden the Hungarian network coordinator!).

------------------------------

Subject: 4.4  Finding out somebody's email-address in Hungary

 The bigger academic domains have on-line directories (CSO phonebooks):

Technical University, Budapest
      gopher://goliat.eik.bme.hu/11/engl/tel-adat/hazi-tele

Budapest University of Economic Sciences*
      gopher://URSUS.BKE.HU:71/11/kozgaz/telefon
(*under construction)

Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
      <gopher://xenia.sote.hu:105/2>

Central Research Inst. of Physics, Budapest
      <gopher://sunserv.kfki.hu:105/2>

Members of the Szeged University Association
      <gopher://sol.cc.u-szeged.hu:105/2>

Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
      <gopher://ipiux.jpte.hu:1051/2>
	<http://ipisun.jpte.hu/cgi-bin/ph.pl>;

University of Veszprem
      <gopher://miat0.vein.hu:105/2>

 ELLA also has an on-line directory: <telnet://hugbox.sztaki.hu:203>
(i.e. address a special port). Note that the opening screen uses
special characters for the accented letters but the data records have
combinations of vowel plus ',: or " instead (i.e. searching for
hollo'si would retrieve a record, but hollosi won't)!

 If the person has registered him/herself with the RaDir database of
HIX, you might try the following (note, however, that most parts of
RaDir are badly out of date):

 - by <gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/radir> (a link to the same is
offered by <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/>; on the World Wide Web); from
inside Hungary use <gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX/radir>, or
<http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/radir.html>; (this last one is a true HTML
search form)). Under RaDir, you'll find the entire database
cross-indexed by search keys.

 - by 'finger +whois:"SEARCHWORD"@hix.mit.edu' you can look up records
containing "SEARCHWORD" string in the database

 - by email: send a blank message <mailto:>. You'll
receive, in several chunks, the entire database of users, their
electronic and snail-mail addresses, etc. You'll need a decent editor
to search what you're looking for.

 If you have some idea what institution to check at, you may find an
online directory service -- many are available, and could be reached
through the Hungarian gophers (or WWW sites) mentioned in section 3.
Try contacting the (electronic) postmaster, usually
, or using 'finger' to inquire about users.

 As a last resort, send in your query to a discussion group. Readers of
<news:soc.culture.magyar>, <mailto:> discussion
list (section 1.7), or some HIX-list (<mailto:> in
particular, see 2.1) may be able to help. Be aware, though, that most
participants are located abroad - especially in the case of the Usenet
group!

------------------------------

Subject: 5.  ODDS AND ENDS

------------------------------

Subject: 5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary

 The electricity is 220 V, 50 Hz. The frequency, in fact, fluctuates a
lot, but it doesn't cause any problem when operating computer devices.
(Don't trust too much your plug-in clock radios though.) If you are
from any country running on 110 V or around, due to complications in
voltage conversion, a battery driven laptop or notebook is your best
bet. However, if you decide to take your desktop system, printer, etc.,
you  have a good chance that the device can also be operated on 220 V.
Check it first before you go through unnecessary trouble. If not, you
have to apply 220 V to 110 V AC converters (you might need more than
one; check the power ratings of your devices & converters). WARNING!
Your converters should be designed for *electronic/motorized devices*.
Refuse any converter for *heating appliances* even if its power rating
is much higher! These converters are not real transformers, and can
cause major damages to your electronic devices.

 Also make sure you are able to connect to the Hungarian grounded power
outlet, because that's what's recommended for your appliances.
Therefore you should try to find grounded plug adapters and/or voltage
converters.  Connecting to ungrounded outlets causes possibly no harm,
but for your own & your devices' safety grounded connections should be
preferred.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2  Conventions & standards for coding Hungarian accents

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.0 Introduction & section overview  

 During the evolution of teletypes and computers, two character tables
survived, acquiring major importance in later computer systems. One is
EBCDIC, primarily used in ancient IBM mainframes. The other one, ASCII,
can be considered today's ubiquitous standard in computing worldwide.
The rest of this section, therefore, pays attention to ASCII code, very
unfairly ignoring EBCDIC, since none of the accent conversion programs
support neither this code table nor the CMS environment.

 Since the language of computing has been English from the beginning,
the original ASCII table was limited to the characters used in English:
letters of the Latin alphabet, a few punctuation marks and some other
special symbols. Since the number of all these characters, plus the
unprintable "control" characters (located in the first 32 positions of
the ASCII table, responsible for different control functions) doesn't
exceed 128, the real 'brilliant' idea of representing the ASCII table
in 7 bits spread like wild fire all over the computer world. No wonder,
that most of the Internet mailers and Usenet hubs are also set up to
forward documents in 7-bit ASCII only.  (Read the rest of the section
carefully to learn how to overcome these problems.) As computing and
word processing started to rise up in the rest of the world, there was
an increasing demand to represent these national characters as well. (A
good example is Hungarian. The extra consonants [nonexistent in
English] are formed by merely juxtaposing 2 (or 3 in case of dzs)
regular Latin characters; so there is no problem here.  However, the
special vowels of the language are denoted by applying different
accents on the Latin 'base-vowel', introducing new characters, the so
called accented vowels.) It's an obvious idea to place these national
characters and other fancy symbols utilizing codes 128 to 255, still
remaining within the byte limit. Different character sets have been
created by defining purpose- or language-specific characters for the
upper half of the table, while keeping the 7-bit ASCII codes unchanged.
(Note:  Some character sets also re-use codes between 0 and 31, the
domain of ASCII control characters, keeping some, or none of them.
Using these codes, however, is pretty difficult, device- and
implementation-dependent, etc.  Therefore it wouldn't be wise to put
accented characters here, but fortunately none of the sets listed below
did it actually.) Hopefully Unicode will ultimately stop this
confusion, but until then there's a long long way to go.

At this point let's clarify the terminology:

... ASCII (also 7-bit or plain ASCII) data:
Usually text (but not necessarily, see 5.2.5.1.), containing only 7-bit
ASCII characters, including the control ones.
... 8-bit (extended) ASCII data:
Text containing the uniform 7-bit ASCII characters, plus special
characters (with code greater than 127) according to one of the 8-bit
character sets.
... Binary data:
Non-text data (executables, pictures, etc.) containing any 8-bit value.

 The different kludges accepted by Internet users to denote accented
vowels in 7-bit ASCII are described in 5.2.1. The most important
extended ASCII character sets are introduced in 5.2.2. 5.2.3 shows the
accented character representations used by high-level formatting
languages. The correct ways of transferring files among word processor
[on the Net] are detailed in 5.2.4. If the data to be transferred is
not 7-bit ASCII, 5.2.5 tells you what to do. Last, but not least, 5.2.6
introduces the programs in the HIX archives (and mentions some others)
that address the problem of conversion between the various types of
accent representation.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.1 House rules for plain (7-bit) ASCII

 If you are limited to the use of 7-bit ASCII, you have essentially the
following choices to deal with the accented characters:

5.2.1.0 No accent marks at all

 Simple and sure-fire. In fact, the most common 'solution'.

5.2.1.1 The '~" coding (also called "marking notation" or "Babai-code")
        [Sometimes nicknamed as _repu~lo"_.]

 Here's a sample:

         O~t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu~nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu~ko~rfu'ro'ge'p
         O~t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru~lt i'ro't nyu'z

or, in the alternative ':" _repu:lo"_ format:

         O:t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu:nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu:ko:rfu'ro'ge'p
         O:t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru:lt i'ro't nyu'z

 Quite readable, though a bit tricky to disambiguate mechanically:
remember, the " or : or ' may also serve as punctuation marks. (This
problem can be handled using Maxent's escaping capabilities, see
5.2.6.6.)

Warning! Don't get confused: in TeX (see 5.2.3.1) " denotes umlaut!

5.2.1.2 The 123 coding (also "numerical notation" or "Pro1sze1ky-code")

 Here's the same text:

         O2t hu3to3ha1zbo1l ke1rtu2nk szi1nhu1st
         a1rvi1ztu3ro3 tu2ko2rfu1ro1ge1p
         O2t sze1p szu3zla1ny o3ru2lt i1ro1t nyu1z

 The only one that's both short and unambiguous, though it takes some
getting used to. 1 stands for the stroke, 2 for the short umlaut, 3 for
the 'Hungarian' or long umlaut (double acute). Very easily converted to
other formats. (Also can be ambiguous, though with much smaller
probability. E.g. U2, CO2, , etc.)

5.2.1.3 Telegraphic style. For example,

         Oet huetoehaazbool keertuenk sziinhuust
         aarviiztueroe tuekoerfuuroogeep
         Oet szeep szuezlaany oeruelt iiroot nyuuz

 Avoid it like the plague because

1. It's ambiguous. (Think of Goethe, Oetker, Eoersi, Csooori, poeen.) 
2. Coding of o" & u" (o3 & u3) is not consistent:
   u3 = ue (fallback to u2), uue, uee, ueue
3. Absolutely not a pleasure to read.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.2 Fancy 8-bit character sets (extended ASCII)

 The following rollcall lists the most important character sets
supported by the majority of hardware and software, including the
accent conversion programs. The available Hungarian accented characters
are detailed for each set.

Notes: 

 Henceforth when referring to an accented character, the numerical
(Pro1sze1ki) notation will be used to maintain clarity.


5.2.2.1 PC-codepages

(*) PC-437: Hardware

 The basic hardware character set of PC-compatible systems. Since it
was supposed to contain many symbols (line drawing characters, some
Greek letters, etc.), and be general, it's pretty poor in terms of
accented characters. Missing Hungarian vowels: o3, u3 [substitute them
with o^ & u^], A1 [substitute it with A-circle], I1, O1, O3, U1, U3.

(*) CWI recommendation for Hungarian accents:

A standard initiative to replace the many house rules of character code
assignment for accents unavailable in PC-437. Codes are assigned as
follows:

o3->147 [o^], u3->150 [u^], A1->143, I1->141 [i`] or 140 [I^],
O1->149 [o`], O3->167, U1->151 [u`], U3->153 [y~]

(*) PC-850: Multilingual

Contains all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.
Note: ? means o, u, O or U.

(*) PC-852: Latin 2

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

(*) PC-860: Portuguese
(*) PC-863: Canadian-French
(*) PC-865: Nordic

These sets miss various Hungarian accents, esp. in upper case. Using
them for a Hungarian text makes absolutely no sense.

5.2.2.2 ISO character sets

 These character sets are specified by ISO standards. As far as ALL
(not only Hungarian) accented vowels concerned, ISO 8859/1, 2 & 9 is
equivalent to Windows Latin 1, 2 & 5 respectively.

(*) ISO 8859/1:
(*) ISO 8859/3:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

(*) ISO 8859/2:

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

 Fonts for iso-8859-2 (and some other) character sets can be found at
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/font/> for various operation systems, and at
<ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/> (mirrored at
<ftp://ftp.vma.bme.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/> and
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/>) mostly for Unix. There is
material for Hungarianizing the Linux (and possibly other Unix variant)
operation system at <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/linux/>.

5.2.2.3 Others

The following character sets are supported by various laser printers. 
Roman-8 bears special importance as being the default character set of
many printers.

(*) Ventura International & Roman-8:
(*) MC Text:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.3 Text formatting languages

 The text formatting languages listed below, beyond their powerful text
formatting capabilities, also include the specification of [almost] all
the accented characters. These languages give an alternative way of
dealing with accents in 7-bit ASCII, especially if the software that
can display, print or convert these representations is available.
[Unlike notations in 5.2.1, the "raw" files of these languages are not
intended to be read by ordinary users.]

5.2.3.1 [La]TeX. 

 Invented by D. E. Knuth, TeX (pronounce as [tech]; 'X' denotes the
Greek letter 'chi'), and the macro collection based on it, LaTeX, are
today's most popular text formatting languages for document creation
and DTP.

To continue with the same example,

 \"{O}t h\H{u}t\H{o}h\'{a}zb\'{o}l k\'{e}rt\"{u}nk sz\'{\i}nh\'{u}st

 \'{a}rv\'{\i}zt\H{u}r\H{o} t\"{u}k\"{o}rf\'{u}r\'{o}g\'{e}p

 \"{O}t sz\'{e}p sz\H{u}zl\'{a}ny \H{o}r\"{u}lt \'{i}r\'{o}t ny\'{u}z

 This is meant to be printed with TeX or previewed as a dvi file.
 Wholly unambiguous, can be automatically converted to/from several
other formats (see 5.2.6). Also check the babel system for LaTeX with
the Hungarian specific option, available from FTP sites kth.se or
goya.dit.upm.es.

5.2.3.2 HTML (HyperText Markup Language)

 Unfortunately, the HTML-2 standard still does not contain notation for
Hungarumlaut (long umlaut, double acute). We use tilde or circumflex
instead. The preferred notation is o with tilde õ and u with
circumflex û. In the example above,

   Öt hûtõházból kértünk
   színhúst

   árvíztûrõ
   tükörfúrógép

   Öt szép szûzlány õrült
   írót nyúz

5.2.3.3 RTF (Rich Text Format)

 This standard is widespread among Microsoft word processors. For
non-ASCII characters it uses the following coding:

\'XX

where XX is the code of the given ISO 8859/2 (or PC-852 for Word for
DOS) character in hexadecimal.

5.2.3.4 Adobe PostScript

 It is a universal standard for describing any kind of graphics,
including fonts, but it is aimed at producing the final (typically
printed) copy of documents and not at word-processing per se. For a
starter document see <http://www.adobe.com/PS/PS-QA.html>; or
<ftp://wilma.cs.brown.edu/pub/comp.lang.postscript/FAQ.txt> or
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/postscript/faq/part1-4>.
If one has the right accented fonts sets then, in theory, the output is
transferable between different machines - but often we run into hurdles
in practice.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.4 Microcomputer products: The word processors 

 Different word processors on different microcomputers use several
proprietary internal control sequences to handle accented characters,
as much as other symbols, and other text formatting commands. If you
want to transfer a document like this, you have to convert this [very
probably] binary file (8-bit ASCII with all kinds of binary crap) to
text (7-bit ASCII), see 5.2.5.1, unless your mailer can handle binary
directly, see 5.2.5.2. Make sure, however, that the recipient of your
document also possesses the same or equivalent word processor, or a
word processor supporting the format you used.

 It might happen that you want to use your document in another word
processing system, or a plain text editor. Today's word processors
offer conversion to a few formats, and also pure text with different
character sets (5.2.2). The resulting file, if necessary, can be
converted further to 7-bit ASCII as shown in 5.2.6. (The output is
already 7-bit ASCII in Microsoft's RTF, see 5.2.3.3.)

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.5 Switching binary to ASCII and vice versa

5.2.5.1 Uuencode & uudecode

 The easiest and most popular way of conversion between binary and
ASCII is the use of the twin sisters uuencode and uudecode. These
programs were created originally for Unix ('uu' stands for Unix to
Unix), but today they are implemented under most platforms.

 Uuencode makes an ASCII file out of a binary one, forming 61 character
long lines to avoid problems excessively long lines can cause in the
different mailer agents. This conversion increases the size of the file
by 40%.  Warning! Understand the really goofy usage of uuencode. The
parameters specify the local & remote BINARY filenames respectively.
The encoded ASCII result is sent to the standard output, it has to be
redirected into a file explicitly. (E.g. uuencode myface.gif myface.gif
> myface.uue )

 Uudecode converts the encoded ASCII file back to binary. It is smart:
using the "begin" and "end" tags placed in the encoded file, uudecode
is able to retrieve the encoded information automatically discarding
everything before and after the tags (headers, signatures, other junk),
even if it's inserted in the middle of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Its
usage is also simple: only the input filename has to be specified; the
original filename is restored from the "begin" tag. (E.g. uudecode
yourface.mal )

5.2.5.2 MIME support

 Many modern mailers support the MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extensions) standard being able to transfer different file formats
beyond plain text. In this case the ASCII/binary conversion is the
mailer's internal affair. Some mailers make explicit calls to uuencode
and uudecode, some others (e.g. PINE) have different built in
conversion algorithms, trying to choose the most appropriate one for
the given binary file. (One type of MIME encoding substitutes an
unprintable character by its code in hexadecimal, preceded by an =
sign. That's why you often see them splattered around.) In either case,
however, the user is not responsible for the conversion, the mailer
takes care of it automatically.

5.2.5.3 Binhex

 BinHex files are 7-bit ASCII text files, typically used for encoding
Macintosh binaries. Conversion is done by various applications, see eg.
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/macintosh/general-faq>.

------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.6 Translating between various accent formats

 From the HIX archives (see section 3) the following programs are
available.  The regular location is 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/info/programs/>;, though
you should also check <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/>; 
for updates. At the time of this writing the SENDDOC archive is 
extremely ill-organized and outdated in many parts, including, 
unfortunately, the 'new' directory.

 Warning! From abroad always access the HIX archives via 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/>;,
<gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/senddoc>,
<mailto:>, or 'finger '
(the latter only works for text, and you may have to redirect it to a
pager or file). The mirror at <gopher://hix.elte.hu> is updated only at
certain periods of time, also there is a limited bandwidth on the lines
connecting Hungary to the world (see section 4).

5.2.6.1 ekezettelenites

 Gabor Toth's UNIX shell script for deleting unwanted accents from mail
files.

5.2.6.2 etex

 Gabor Toth's shareware C source code for converting the marking or
numerical accent notation to TeX-format. It also claims to be capable
of hyphenation. Supports the UNIX platform.

5.2.6.3 hion

 Peter Verhas's C source code. It's an improved version of etex, as it
reduces the probability of incorrect hyphenation with some built-in
exception library. Hion is able to do the conversion between the
numerical (or, redefining each accent mark, also the marking) accent
notation & TeX-format, and remove accents if the input is an accent
notation. Read his documentation. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS,
UNIX. Available from <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/TeX/hion.tar.gz>
or <ftp://ftp.digital.bme.hu/hion/>.

5.2.6.4 drtc.c

 Peter Verhas's freeware C source code for conversion between RTF (Rich
Text Format), character sets ISO 8859/2 (Latin 2), PC-852 (Latin 2)
and CWI. The program attempts to find out the inbound format
automatically. The outbound format can't be RTF. Supported platforms:
VMS, MS-DOS, & possibly UNIX.

5.2.6.5 hun.c

 Gabor Ligeti's freeware C source code for accent removal and
conversion between the marking & numerical accent notation, TeX-format
and PC-852 (Latin 2) codepage. Warning! Conversion capabilities are not
orthogonal, type hun /? for the supported conversions. No platform
limitations are indicated.

5.2.6.6 MAXENT.UUE_V6.0a

 Peter Csaszar's freeware C source code compressed with pkzip & encoded
with uuencode (see 5.2.5.1). Warning! As of 6/12/95, the HIX gopher's
/HIX/SENDDOC/info/programs directory still contains 'maxent.c', the
very old version V1.4 of Maxent. Don't touch this file, go for version
V6.0a, currently in <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/MAXENT.Z>;.

 Maxent provides 100% orthogonality in conversion between any of the
accent notations listed in 5.2.1 but telegraphic style, and any of the
character sets listed in 5.2.2, allowing multiple notations in the
input file. The domain of conversion includes 6 vowels and 6 accent
types, applying therefore a house rule extension of the marking and
numerical accent notations. (Hoping that this extension becomes widely
accepted, no longer remaining a house rule.) Language accent profiles
other than the default Hungarian can be selected. Further accent
services include accent notation escaping & de-escaping (see 5.2.1.1),
and flexible substitution of the o3 etc. characters.

 Beyond some little services, the rest of the major features provide
comprehensive retabulation strategies, full newline conversion
capabilities and script file execution (ideal for maintaining mail
folders after download).

 The help given by the program can be saved into a file by typing
maxent -h0 > maxent.hlp . Print this file for fancy bedtime reading.

 Maxent supports only the MS-DOS environment, and should be compiled by
a Borland C compiler. This is the sacrifice for the extensive services
provided.

5.2.6.7 ekezet.dot

 Via anonymous <ftp://bme-tel.ttt.bme.hu/pub/income/ekezetes/>, you can
find Kornel Umann's WinWord template capable of many kinds of
conversion.  Also find other goodies in the directory above.

5.2.6.8 hixiso

 Olivier Clary's Unix scripts for converting accented text appearing
on HIX are at <ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/hixiso.tar.gz>.

------------------------------

Subject:  5.3 Information sources pertaining to the rest of Central Europe

 This section is by no means to be comprehensive. For a big but dated
(1992) list see
<gopher://poniecki.berkeley.edu/00/archives/polish.archives/Network/EE-MotherLi
st>.

 Both OMRI and CET cover the general region in their news. See Section
1.1 and 1.2, respectively.

 To complement the HUNGARY list (see Section 1.7), at the same listserv
at Buffalo there exist the Middle European discussion list MIDEUR-L as
well as POLAND-L and SLOVAK-L. Send the usual command to
<mailto:> (or simply  on
BITNET):

      SUBSCRIBE listname-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname.

 On Usenet there is soc.culture.romanian, soc.culture.czecho-slovak,
soc.culture.polish, and the gatewayed bit.listserv.mideur-l and
bit.listserv.slovak-l; bit.listserv.hungary has been established, but
many sites do not have it. The surest way to receive everything is via
email. If you prefer using Usenet newsreaders you find HIX's HUNGARY
digests posted to soc.culture.magyar (which group does not seem to
suffer the poor propagation affecting some of the bit.listserv
groups).  Please notice that while the listserv groups are
bi-directionally gatewayed, i.e. posts to them get propagated back to
the original mailing list, the posts coming from HIX to
soc.culture.magyar are mere copies of the mailing list messages - do
not reply to the newgroups since your answer won't reach the email
readers (who constitute a likely large majority).

 Speaking of limitations of distribution be aware that some commercial
Internet connection providers (most blatantly American Online)
established their own groups with topics overlapping existing Usenet
hierarchy. The utility of these local groups is seriously limited since
they are, unlike the open real Usenet newsgroups such as those
mentioned above, unavailable to anyone but their own subscribers (i.e.
a small domestic fraction of all the Internet/Usenet users worldwide).
Please do not post to non-local groups saying how nice would be to use
these specialized forums - we can not. Use the newsgroup
soc.culture.magyar or the mailing lists!

 The Central European Regional Research Organization (CERRO) can be
joined at <mailto:> with the command
SUBSCRIBE CERRO-L Firstname Lastname.  This is a scholarly group that
deposits papers and the like in an electronic archive in Vienna.  The
archive is accessible with anonymous <ftp://wu-wien.ac.at>, or with
<gopher://gopher.wu-wien.ac.at>.

 The Eastern Europe Business Network ) is
primarily remarkable for its size (1700+ subscribers). Messages tend to
be brief bursts of announcements, questions and, unsurprisingly, calls
for or queries about business. The list is administered by Yale's Civic
Education Project (Chris Owen, <mailto:>). To
subscribe, send a message to the address
<mailto:> that has

             subscribe e-europe YourFirstName YourLastName
in its body.

 The repository for Voice of America material, accessible with
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov>, also contains some information and news
items relevant to the region.

 Check the NATO archive for goodies: <gopher://gopher.nato.int>.

 The Slovakia Document Store will answer all your questions about
Slovakia:  on the World Wide Web, <http://www.eunet.sk>;, via
<gopher://gopher.eunet.sk>, via <ftp://ftp.eunet.sk/slovakia/>, via
gophermail: send a message with Subject: HELP
<mailto:>.

------------------------------

Subject: 6.  CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS FAQ

(the order is alphabetical by last name)

Beke Tibor     <mailto:>           general layout, 2.1, 5.3
Bruner, Rick   <mailto:>     1.3
Csaszar Peter  <mailto:>   5.1, 5.2
Fabian Peter   <mailto:> 3.1, 4.1, 4.4
Fekete Zoli    <mailto:>           much of the rest
Hewes, Cameron <mailto:>      1.2
Hollo Kriszta  <mailto:>         4.2
Umann Kornel   <mailto:>        5.2
Varnum, Ken    <mailto:>       1.1

 If you have a question or remark regarding some specific section, you
may want to contact its author. The FAQ as such continues to be
maintained by Zoli Fekete <mailto:>. The keeper hereby
expresses the many thanks we all owe to every contributor - and above
all to Tibor Beke who brought about this cooperative effort, and took
upon consolidating the whole (with Peter Csaszar who took over the
next-to-last editing). Still, any errors are the responsibility of
Zoli - who'd like to hear all corrections, recommendations or just
comments readers may have!
 Acknowledgement is also due here to Jozsef Hollosi and Arpad Palotas,
for providing webspace to this FAQ on the HIX server and helping to
improve its homepage, respectively.

------------------------------

Subject: 7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

 One of these days ;-) there will be a guide here about how to handle
all the strange things that you may see embedded in this text; but in
the meantime, if you don't know yet what URLs are and are not reading a
copy thru a WWW browser that may show a selectable link: just do the
sensible thing and use email to access 'mailto:' addresses, ftp for
'ftp:' and telnet for 'telnet:'...

 Updated versions of this document will be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/posted>;
or <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq>. Notice
that the canonical Usenet archive <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu> is often
overloaded - if you can't get connected try one of the mirror sites (of
which a list by countries can be found in
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/news-answers/introduction>
that is also available thru the RTFM mail-server shown below) - eg.
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq> in
the USA! You can also retrieve it via <mailto:>
with the command "send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq" in the body
of the message, or via 'finger '.
 A brief extract of hungarian-faq, concentrating on the email services,
is also available now
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer>; or 
'finger '.
 A separate document on network service providers in Hungary
prepared independently by John Horvath <mailto:> is
available via email from its author or via
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/comm-providers>;.

 This hungarian-faq is expected to be updated at least every couple of
months, due to the rapid changes occuring on the net. If you are
reading a copy whose 'Last-modified:' date shown on top is older than
that then many parts may be out of date - in this case get the recent
one from the sources listed above, and/or try to convince the
administrator of the site keeping the old copy to freshen it. Please
notice that retrieving from the Usenet archives is likely a lot faster
than asking me personally (and most everything I can answer is already
in here)! If you do write me <mailto:>, then give a
descriptive 'Subject:' line - keep in mind that much of my incoming
email deemed unworthy by me is deleted unread in order to keep up with
the high volume I am receiving (most of it from various mailing
lists).  The best way to ensure catching my attention - and to allow
automatized pre-processing - is to start it with 'ZFIX:' (the name my
mail-handler answers to is Zophisticated Free Information eXchange, in
case you were wondering :-)).

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the 
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!

CHARLES VAMOSSY wrote:
> 

> Of course, there is another possiblity that I do not dismiss as blithly
> as you ,do, Mr. Tuluca  that the magazine is actually on target when it
> states "In Slovakia and Romania, the old anti-democratic bully is
> emerging in democratically elected leaders:  Vladimir Meciar and Ion
> Iliescu are both roughnecks for whom opposition and minority rights are
> dirty words.  ...Both might be given the benefit of the doubt -- but the
> doubt remains."
> 
> with best wishes for the holidays,
> 
> Charlie Vamossy	My point was clear to me, but it seems not so clear to Joe wh
o 
acused me of loving my country from Ohio (even if only on a temporary 
basis, but of course he couldn't have known that) or to you. My point was 
simply that Maghyars have a very good and well conducted propaganda, and 
yes, taking advantage of other people lack of culture they can influence 
and manipulate mass media. At the same time I was hinting at the fact 
that they do it from outside the Hungary's borders, with a complete lack 
of understanding of the new realities of modern Europe. You want it or 
not borders in Europe are there to stay and I see no way for 12 mil 
Hungarians to rule 6 mil Romanians (in case Hungary could "take back its 
teritories"). The 19th century is history, and history repeats itself but 
not that frequently and wrongly. 
	I have nothing against Maghiars, as I wrote a couple of times by 
now; some of my friends are Hungarian (both from Romania and Hungary) and 
they are better persons than some Romanians I know. This is for me 
another proof that those who recently left their respective countries 
know better than those who lost touch with today's realities. I find the 
efforts of some Hungarians to denigrate Romania futile and unwarranted as 
long as we have geographically to bear ourselves. If Hungary thinks that 
the West of the Americans will place it on a pedestal as the smartest 
country in Central Europe it is dead wrong.  The people in these regions 
don't even know or care about any of our counties as long as there is no 
profit to be made. 
	And if we have to be pragmatic, Romania will always be supported 
by France, Germany and U.K. against Hungary if any real dispute arises so 
I really think that Maghiars should direct their efforts of finding a way 
to pay their external debt and quell the anxiety of those who at first 
believed their propagande and put a lot of money into Hungary. I do not 
want to engage in disputes but any keen economic observer of the region 
knows by now that Hungary was a losing bet. Do not ask me to give proofs 
and quotes because I don't have the time or the patiance. Those 
interested should do a Dialog search using key words "bussines and 
Hungary" and will see what I mean. After that they can also try "Romania 
and bussines" and they will be amazed to find out how much things have 
changed since 1990; the underdog is now a star, and its economic 
prospects are great. Unfortunately, this is not what my mother is telling 
me from Romania. In conclusion I don't care about the West of the 
Americans because I know it's in vain and life will be hard in Romania 
(and Hungary for that matter) for the next 15-20 years regardless of who 
bashes who. The only way out is to forget this stupid trashing and try to 
build some form of cooperation, maybe from two cripples we can make a 
good one.

Same best wishes for X-mas and the New Year! S.Tuluca

CHARLES VAMOSSY wrote:
> 

> Of course, there is another possiblity that I do not dismiss as blithly
> as you ,do, Mr. Tuluca  that the magazine is actually on target when it
> states "In Slovakia and Romania, the old anti-democratic bully is
> emerging in democratically elected leaders:  Vladimir Meciar and Ion
> Iliescu are both roughnecks for whom opposition and minority rights are
> dirty words.  ...Both might be given the benefit of the doubt -- but the
> doubt remains."
> 
> with best wishes for the holidays,
> 
> Charlie Vamossy	My point was clear to me, but it seems not so clear to Joe wh
o 
acused me of loving my country from Ohio (even if only on a temporary 
basis, but of course he couldn't have known that) or to you. My point was 
simply that Maghyars have a very good and well conducted propaganda, and 
yes, taking advantage of other people lack of culture they can influence 
and manipulate mass media. At the same time I was hinting at the fact 
that they do it from outside the Hungary's borders, with a complete lack 
of understanding of the new realities of modern Europe. You want it or 
not borders in Europe are there to stay and I see no way for 12 mil 
Hungarians to rule 6 mil Romanians (in case Hungary could "take back its 
teritories"). The 19th century is history, and history repeats itself but 
not that frequently and wrongly. 
	I have nothing against Maghiars, as I wrote a couple of times by 
now; some of my friends are Hungarian (both from Romania and Hungary) and 
they are better persons than some Romanians I know. This is for me 
another proof that those who recently left their respective countries 
know better than those who lost touch with today's realities. I find the 
efforts of some Hungarians to denigrate Romania futile and unwarranted as 
long as we have geographically to bear ourselves. If Hungary thinks that 
the West of the Americans will place it on a pedestal as the smartest 
country in Central Europe it is dead wrong.  The people in these regions 
don't even know or care about any of our counties as long as there is no 
profit to be made. 
	And if we have to be pragmatic, Romania will always be supported 
by France, Germany and U.K. against Hungary if any real dispute arises so 
I really think that Maghiars should direct their efforts of finding a way 
to pay their external debt and quell the anxiety of those who at first 
believed their propagande and put a lot of money into Hungary. I do not 
want to engage in disputes but any keen economic observer of the region 
knows by now that Hungary was a losing bet. Do not ask me to give proofs 
and quotes because I don't have the time or the patiance. Those 
interested should do a Dialog search using key words "bussines and 
Hungary" and will see what I mean. After that they can also try "Romania 
and bussines" and they will be amazed to find out how much things have 
changed since 1990; the underdog is now a star, and its economic 
prospects are great. Unfortunately, this is not what my mother is telling 
me from Romania. In conclusion I don't care about the West of the 
Americans because I know it's in vain and life will be hard in Romania 
(and Hungary for that matter) for the next 15-20 years regardless of who 
bashes who. The only way out is to forget this stupid trashing and try to 
build some form of cooperation, maybe from two cripples we can make a 
good one.

Same best wishes for X-mas and the New Year! S.Tuluca

 (Blaise Szekely) wrote:

(cut)
>2.) Ezenkivul meg kell szabadulnunk egy csomo zurzavaros tudomanyos eszmetol
>es elmelettol. Elsosorban azokrol az elmeletekrol van szo, amelyek
>probaljak megmagyarazni az Atom-nak nevezett elemi egyseg mukodeset. Dacara a 
>latszolagos, csalfa technologiai sikereknek, halvany fogalmunk sincs arrol, 
>hogy mikent mukodik a termeszet gepezete az atomok segitsegevel.
>Kozben gyorsitott utemben piszkoljuk es pusztitjuk a termeszet vilagat.
>Egyetlen remenyunk csak az lehet, hogy felredobva a mai zagyvalekos 
>atomelmeleteket, bevezetunk egy teljesen uj tudomanyos gondolatot, melynek
>segitsegevel megertjuk az atomok es a termeszet mukodeset.
>Modomban all reszletes magyarazatokat kuldeni azok reszere, akiket e 
>gondolatok eredekelnek.

Ki az a "mi" akik nem ertik az atomelmeletet? Miert kellene
mindenkinek erteni?
Kik vezetnek be az uj "tudomanyos gondolatot" es milyen modon?
Amit nem ertunk az zavaros?
Az uj "tudomanyos gondolat" majd nem lesz zavaros azoknak akik nem
ertik? Vagy azt majd nem is kell erteni? (Bar ebben az esetben
szerintem automatikusan atsorol az elso pont ala, a vallasokhoz.)

Miert kell osszekeverni a tudomanyos megismerest, a fektelen
autogyartassal? Persze ha mindenki teljesen eszetlen lenne, akkor
autot sem lehetne gyartani, de ez meg nem jelenti azt, hogy a
fizikusok felelosek a kornyezetrombolasert.

Jobb lett volna teljesen tudatlanul? Mar keso!

Kar, hogy mindez nem angolul van, az lenne csak a szep!


--------------------------------------
Peter Szaszvari
http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm
--------------------------------------

Archive-name: hungarian/pointer
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: pointer
Bit-listserv-hungary-archive-name: pointer
Version: 0.90 (beta)
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-modified: 1995/11/21
URL: http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer

 This document summarizes network-related resources of Hungarian
interest, which are accessible via email. Some of the most readily
available sources of information can be found in the archives of
periodical information postings to Usenet; these documents are commonly
known as FAQs (from Frequently Asked/Answered Questions). Knowing the
name of the file you can retrieve it by sending email to
 with the command "send
usenet/news.answers/<ARCHIVE-NAME>" in the message (without the quotes,
and with substituting the actual name for <ARCHIVE-NAME> in the pattern
shown above) - for example, to get the document described below, use

 send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq

 To learn more about the RTFM server just send the command "help" to it
- it will provide step-by-step intstructions on how to use the
archives, on retrieving indexes and so on.

 "Hungarian electronic resources FAQ" is a comprehensive collection
dealing with email, FTP, WWW and other Internet tools; its archive name
is 'hungarian-faq' (and the mail-server command to get it is shown in
the example above).
 If you only have direct access to email then, in order to use the
other tools, you'll need the methods described in "Accessing The
Internet By E-Mail" (Archive-name:
internet-services/access-via-email).
 To get a general introduction to Usenet (with some guides to Internet
as well - and explanation of how they are different, too) see "Welcome
to news.newusers.questions!" (Archive-name: news-newusers-intro).
 For a guide to finding someone's e-mail addresses, see the "FAQ: How
to find people's E-mail addresses" (Archive-name: finding-addresses).
Do notice that it's usually inappropriate to send such blanket requests
to mailing lists; the search tools available give much better chance to
locate addresses sought than posted queries in any case!
 An overview of commercial on-line services in Hungary is available by 
John Horvath > 
(Archive-name: hungarian/comm-providers).

 The hungarian-faq describes several email lists related to Hungary;
only a brief summary is shown here. Please keep in mind that
subscription requests (and other administrative communications) should
be directed to the server address, NOT to the lists themselves.

Server: 
 List:  (the HUNGARY LISTSERV list)

Server: 
 List: HOL (Hungary Online)

Server: 
 List: hungary-report

Server: 
 Lists: OMRI-L (Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest)
        MIDEUR-L (Middle European discussion list)

Server: 
 List: cet-online (Central Europe Today On-Line; email )

Server: 
 List: CERRO-L (Central European Regional Research Organization)

Server: email to  (Hollosi Information Exchange)
 Lists: HIX is a collection of several separate lists, including
  - MOZAIK, a collection of news items in English
  - various discussion forums in Hungarian language
  - SCM and HUNGROUPS, which are email-accessible archives of the Usenet
    newsgroup soc.culture.magyar and the hun.* national hierarchy,
    respectively; to get a directory listing of these archives (as well
    as that of other HIX lists), send email to  with
    "arch" in the 'Subject:' line. Note that the SENDDOC utility takes
    its parameter from the 'Subject:' of the message (unlike many other
    servers, like the ones described previously, which use the body)!

 Note that this document is available on the
 <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>; homepage for the "Hungarian
electronic resources FAQ" at the HIX WWW-server.
 The latter also provides access for the full FAQ via 
 'finger ', and for this brief pointer you are
reading via 'finger ' (notice that you
will likely need to redirect the output to a pager or a file in order
to read it). The Usenet archive name for this document is
 hungarian/pointer .

--
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the 
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!

Boldog szuletesnapot kivanok Neked
! to You means Neked.Peter Ulbrich ) irta:
> In article >,  (Vikram) wro
te:

> > I need to write HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU  in the Magyar langauge.
> >  Would somebody help, please.
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > Vikram


> Boldog szuletesnapot kivanok!

> Peter
> )

X-Subscribe__: >
X-Unsubscribe: >
X-Submissions: >
X-WWW_Page___: http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzet.html
X-Fax________: +1-408-746-2765

N     N  EEEEEEE  M     M  ZZZZZZZ  EEEEEEE  TTTTTTT
NN    N  E        MM   MM       Z   E           T
N N   N  E        M M M M      Z    E           T
N  N  N  EEEE     M  M  M     Z     EEEE        T
N   N N  E        M     M    Z      E           T
N    NN  E        M     M   Z       E           T
N     N  EEEEEEE  M     M  ZZZZZZZ  EEEEEEE     T

         Magyar Internet Vilaglap

===
SAJTOHEGEMONIARA VALO TOREKVES INTERNETEN IS: A HIX-NIX HATTERE

Bizonyara sok olvaso tudja, hogy a HIX tegnapi bejelentese ota
"HIX-altal tiltott gyumolcsot elvez" mikor a "Nemzet"-et olvassa.
Talan meglepodik ezen, mivel a HIX bejelentese nem tartalmazza az
alabbi informaciokat a Forum-cenzurarol, melyek alapjan vilagos,
mi is a HIX hegemoniara valo torekvesenek hattere es lenyege.

Szucs Andras (a "siliconvalley" domain "public" szferajanak egy
hasznaloja) eljuttatta a Szerkesztosegnek HIX-el valo mult harom
napi levelezesenek anyagat.

Eloszor 20-an kuldott Szucs Andras a HIX-Forumba egy cikket
"Politologiai elorejelzes Szatmaritol 1/3" cimmel, az alabbi kezdo-
sorokal:
___
A "Forum"-ban mar jo evek ota szamos olyan, a perspektiva segit-
segevel elorelathato, "politologiai elorejelzes" volt talalhato,
melyeket az ido igazolt. Hogy az olvasok lassak, milyen pontosan
elore jelezhetok bizonyos trendek, alljon itt (folytatasokban)
egy Forum-tol FUGGETLEN, idokozben tokeletesen beigazolodott
"joslas". Ez az OT ESZTENDEJE (1990-ben irt) elorejelzes Szatmari
Jeno Istvan konyveben talalhato, melyet a "Nemzet" sorozatban
ismertet: http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzet.html

(E kezdosorok utan kovetkezett Szatmari Jeno Istvan: (Majdnem)
halott ujsagiro nem hazudik konyvenek Nemzet-ben December 19-en
lehozott kb. 50 soros anyaga, mely tortenetesen arrol szol, hogyan
rendezkedik be a szocliberal uralom egy kimeletlen sajtohegemoniara).
____
Az automatikus HIX-rendszer a bekuldott levelet visszaigazolta, am
a HIX tulajdonostol a kovetkezo lakonikus kezi elutasitas kovetkezett
(ugy latszik megsem "moderalatlan" a Forum...?)
____
Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 23:00:53 -0500
From:  (Hollosi Information Exchange)
Sender: 
To: 
Subject: torles oka: ez vitaforum, nem pedig a Nemzet utankiadoja
_____
Miutan evvel a kifogassal a HIX tulajdonos kicenzurazta a cikket,
masnap Szucs Andras gondosan elkerulte a "Nemzet"-re valo hivatkozast,
a kovetkezore modositott bevezeto sorokkal:
_____
[Tegnap bekuldott irasomat a FORUM tulajdonosa kicenzurazta a
Szatmari-anyag halozaton valo elerhetosegi helyeinek feltuntetese
okabol. Aki nem tudna magatol, annak e-mail megkeresesere szivesen
kozlom, hol lehet az anyagot elerni]
_____
Bar az automatika megint visszaigazolta a levelet, megint surgosen
jott az ismetelt kicenzurazasrol valo kezi ertesites:
_____
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 1995 12:27:53 -0500
From:  (Hollosi Information Exchange)
Sender: 
To: 
Subject: re:
egy negysoros koruliras nem jobb, mint egy egysoros...
_____
Tiszteletben tartvan, hogy a HIX hiszterikusan reagal egy altala
nem kontrollalt mediumnak puszta megemlitesere is, Szucs Andras
harmadnap (21-en) *minden bevezeto sor es barmi Nemzet-re vonatkozo,
meg korulirast sem tartalmazo referencia nelkul* siman bekuldte a
Szatmari-joslas sajtohegemoniara vonatkozo anyagat. Az automatika
ezt megint visszaigazolta (ime a teljes cikk):

> =======================================================
> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: Szatmari 90-es joslasa bevalt ( 58 sor )
> Idopont: Thu Dec 21 16:31:47 EST 1995 FORUM #1846
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Vajon masok is megdobbentonek tartjak-e a Szatmari Jeno Istvan
"(Majdnem) halott ujsagiro nem hazudik" c. par honapja megjelent
konyveben talalhato, de eloszor mar 5 esztendeje (1990-ben meg-
jelentetett) "joslasok" szinte betu szerinti beigazolodasat? A
"Forum"-ban is mar jo evek ota szamos olyan, a perspektiva segit-
segevel elorelathato, "politologiai elorejelzes" volt talalhato,
melyeket az ido igazolt. Jo lenne tudni, hogy latjak a vita-
partnerek a trendek elore jelezhetosegenek a kerdeset.

Aki esetleg nem ismerne a konyvet, Szatmari idezi az eredetileg a
"Szabadsag, szo, szerkezet" cimu, (Magyar Vasarnap, 1990/9 szamban
megjelent) "politologiai elorejelzeset", melyben az alabbiakat irja:

"Az IMF diktatumait ismerve mar-mar azt kerdezem: miert jo nekunk,
hogy szovjet gyarmatbol a nemzetkozi penzvilag gyarmatava valjunk? Mi
valtozik ettol?  Lassuk csak: korabban volt legalabb egy viszonylagos
szocialis biztonsag.  (Mar, persze, ami penzt erre a koltsegvetes
sokat elnyelo lyukas nagy kalapjabol a szakszervezeti es
szocialis-egeszsegugyi lobbyk ki tudtak sirni es harcolni, es ami
ebbol a kisembernek azutan meg megmaradt, hogy a lobby volt vezerei
szep reszet egyszeruen zsebre vagtak, vagy sajat hobbijaikra
koltottek)

Igaz, volt e viszonylagos biztonsag melle egy kemeny "POFA BE!" is
azoknak, akik gondolkodni mertek.

Es mi van most? Egy eleddig nemigen ismert retteges a holnaptol, a
koltsegvetest vagy az IMF tavoli urai diktaljak, vagy csak csendben
rohoreszve turik, hogy rajuk hivatkozzanak a nep sarcoloi,
lefaragjak a szocialis, egeszsegugyi, lakas-, mezogazdasagi es mas
tamogatasokat, hozzajarulasokat. Es van melle egy "ugathatsz
barmirol" tipusu sajtoszabadsag.

De meddig? A papir, a nyomdak, a terjesztes arai a csillagos egekbe
szoktek. Szep lassan (vagy egyre gyorsabban) pusztulnak ki a magyar
sajtobol az onallo hangu kis lapok, es csak azok maradhatnak fenn,
amelyek ezt a kimeletlen harcot penzzel is birjak. A tobbi meg -
mars a sullyesztobe. Szebb esetben megjelenik nehany szaz peldanyban,
de a lakossag tomegeit csak az tudja manipulalni, akinek mindehhez
penze is van. Es penz - idehaza ehhez keves akad. Igazan csak a kul-
foldi toke altal megvasarolt es tamogatott lapok birjak az iramot.

De ezek "tajekoztatasi szabadsagaban" hosszu tavon nem tudok hinni.
Magyarazat? A sajat hireik a nagyvilagbol. Londonban, Parizsban,
Milanoban es masutt megvesz egy tokecsoport egy regi, olvasott,
bevezetett lapot. Van koztuk nehany baloldali, de a zome polgari,
sot mersekelten jobboldali. A felvasarlas utan jon az ultimatum:
irja azt a lap, amit az uj tulajdonosok kivannak - vagy,
barmilyen vilaghiru a szerkeszto, a riporter, mehet vilagga...
Es maris maskeppen beszel a regi, nagy lap, az olvaso meg,
eszi, nem eszi, nem kap mast.

Most ugyanezen erdekeltsegek vasaroljak fel a magyar lapokat.
Kozben hangoztatjak: az ujsagirok fuggetlenek maradnak. Az elobbiek
ismereteben: meddig? Miert hiszik kollegaink azt, hogy ami rettegett
tollu, vilaghiru palyatarsaknak nem sikerult "odaat" - az Kis Janos-
nak es Nagy Peternek sikerulni fog? A nemzetkozi sajto utolso husz
evet ismerok neveben kerdem: mikor ebredunk fel?"
______
A HIX nyilvanvalo dilemma elott allt. A magyar konyvsajtoban (egyelore)
cenzura nelkul megjelent anyag reszletenek a visszautasitasara
igen nehez hiheto kifogasokat talalni. Ugyanakkor a cikk eppen annak
elore joslasa, hogyan is tor a magyar sajtoban hegemoniara a szoc-
liberal hatalom. Szatmari kozlese a HIX-ben igen megneheziti a vegre-
hajtast, pedig azt egyesek tan nem csak kivanjak, de kovetelik.

Ugy latszik, a dilemma megkerulesere legjobbnak egy "general tiltas"
mutatkozott - a mar visszaigazolt cikket harmadszorra is kicenzurazta,
ezuttal minden ertesites nelkul, sot egy harom nappal ezelotti
jelentektelen (es nem is HIX-el kapcsolatos!) mozzanatra valo "hivat-
kozassal" a HIX altalanos Nemzet-ellenes kirekeszto intezkedeseket
foganatositott.

Ennel tokeletesebb illusztraciot persze nem is adhatott volna pontosan
arra a sajtohegemoniara valo torekvesre, melyet Szatmari mar 1990-ben
bejosolt, s ami most szemunk lattara megy vegbe,teljesedik ki, illetve
teljesedne be, mar az Internet kulfoldi hullamait sem kimelve.

A Szerkesztoseg

=====
HAZAI SAJTO

Kivonatos szemelvenyek Bodnar Daniel a Batthyany-Alapitvany szamara
keszitett napi sajtoszemlejebol es hetilapokbol

1. Magyarorszagi politika

Orszaggyules tenyei.

Napirend elotti heves szovaltasok utan csutortokon az Orszag-
gyules megszavazta az 1996. evi koltsegvetesrol szolo torvenyt.
Ez 2087 milliard forint kiadassal es 1954 milliard forint bevetellel
szamol. A hiany igy 132,6 milliard forintra tervezett. Megszavaztak a
mediatorvenyt is, viszont a Balsai Istvan (MDF) altal benyujtott ugy-
noktorvenyt modosito javaslatat leszavaztak. Az Orszag-
gyules idei utolso munkanapjanak kezdeten feleskudott Magyar
Balint, az uj muvelodesi es kozoktatasi miniszter. Az Orszaggyules
kovetkezo ulesszaka februar 5-en kezdodik (Nepszabadsag).

Velemenyek.

Vegleg ketteszakad a tarsadalom egy szuk elitretegre es a
felemelkedes lehetosegetol megfosztott tomegekre. Ez lesz a jovo evi
koltsegvetes elfogadasanak kovetkezmenye - jelentette ki penteki
sajtotajekoztatojan az MDF velemenyet Grezsa Ferenc, az MDF
elnoksegi tagja. A jovo evi koltsegvetes egy szuk elit erdekeit szolgalja.
Mindenki mas csak abban bizhatnak, hogy idovel jol fizetett bermunkassa
valhat. Grezsa kiemelte: nem gondolja, hogy a kormanypartok tudatosan,
rossz szandekkal politizalnak igy. Felhivta a figyelmet viszont, hogy a
magantulajdon pl. Del-Amerikaban is csak egy rendkivul szuk csoport
kezeben osszpontosul. Az ilyen polarizacionak az az eredmenye, hogy a
demokracia intezmenyei megmaradnak ugyan, de a demokratikus berendez-
kedes csupan formalis. Mindig elore lehet tudni, hogy kit hoz ki nyeronek
a kovetkezo valasztasokon a tenyleges hatalom. Az MDF ezzel szemben a
kozepretegek erositesevel, tulajdonhoz juttatasaval kepzeli el a
gazdasagi felzarkozast. Az energiaprivatizacioval kapcsolatban Halzl
Jozsef, az MDF partigazgatoja kijelentette: azzal, hogy strategiai
agazatok, eromuvek, villany- es gazszolgaltatok tobbsegi kulfoldi
tulajdonba kerultek, a kormany de facto korlatozta az orszag szuvere-
nitasat, holott arra a neptol felhatalmazas nem volt (Nepszabadsag).

Altalanos dragulas jovore

Az inflacio miatt Januartol 12 szazalekkal, juliustol varhatoan tovabbi
3 szazalekkal emelik a nyugdijak forint-szamerteket a kormany csutortoki
dontesenek ertelmeben. A kormany eltorolte a 800 dollaros turista-
keretet. Januar 1-tol az allampolgarok utazasonkent 200 ezer forintnak
megfelelo valutat vasarolhatnak, es tovabbi 200 ezer forintot vihetnek
kulfoldre magukkal (Magyar Hirlap). Az utazasonkent csaknem felmillio
forint ketoldalu forgalma lehetove teszi komolyabb vagyonok "labon"
valo, minden ellenorzes vagy nyomon kovetheto adat nelkuli kulfoldre
vitelet.

Tovabbi aremelkedeseket jelent be januar elsejetol a Magyar Hirlap.
Emelkednek a postai, a vasuti aru- es szemelyszallitasi, a tavolsagi
autobuszdijak es a tavkozlesi dijak. A benzinarak is jelentosen, leg-
alabb 10-12 forinttal literenkent- novekszenek. A MAV 30 szazalekkal
emeli az arufuvarozas dijteteleit. A szemelyi szallitasert pedig 17,5
szazalekkal kell januar elsejetol tobbet fizetni.

Bunozes

Az ev elso 9 honapjaban orszagos atlagban 7 szazalekkal emelkedett
az ismertte valt buncselekmenyek szama. Ez derult ki azon a
pesterzsebeti szeminariumon, ahol a helyi onkormanyzatok es
bunmegelozes kapcsolatat tekintettek at. Vilagosi Gabor, a belugy-
miniszterium politikai allamtitkara kulonoson aggasztonak mondta,
hogy egyre tobb a brutalis buncselekmeny. A listat tovabbra  is a
vagyonellenes bunesetek vezetik (Magyar Hirlap). A Martin Luther
King Egyesulet regisztracioja szerint szinesboru kulfoldieket
1995-ben M.o. semmivel sem tobb skinheadtamadas ert, mint 1994
ben. Az iden oktober 23-aig tiz, azt kovetoen  hat fizikai atrocitasrol
szereztek tudomast. A viszonylag keves skinheadtamadas magyara-
zata, hogy a kulfoldiek jelentos resze elhagyta Magyarorszagot.
A rasszista cselekedetekkel kapcsolatos itelkezesi gyakorlatban
nem tortent valtozas, de a koztarsasagi elnok torvenymodositasi
javaslatan idokozben oly sok modositas tortent, hogy a mostani
tervezet lenyegesen enyhebb az eredetinel (Nepszabadsag).

Partelet

Torgyan Jozsef az FKGP elnoke a part sajtotajekozojan kijelentette,
hogy a nemzeti vagyon bunos vegkiarusitasa es az orszagban uralkodo
elfogadhatatlan allapotok miatt a Kisgazda Part kezdemenyezi, hogy
az Orszaggyules ne tartson masfel honapos teli szunetet. A partelnok
osszeferhetetlennek minositette, hogy a kormany Bokros Lajos penzugy-
miniszternek elnoklete alatt hagyta jova a Budapest Bank privatizaciojat,
hiszen Bokros annak vezetoje volt!  A kisgazdapart a bank eladasa miatt
az Allami Szamvevoszekhez fordult. Kovetelte annak kivizsgalasat, hogy
a tervezett, mintegy 15 milliard forintos vetelar realisnak tekintheto-e
a penzintezetbe beleforgatott, mintegy 12 milliard forintos allami
forrasokhoz kepest. Ha az FKGP nem kap kielegito magyarazatot feltett
kerdeseire, kezdemenyezi a nevszerinti, szemelyi felelosseg felveteset.
A kisgazdak elutasitjak a Matav tovabbi maganositasat is.  Torgyan azt is
kijelentette, hogy az FKGP elleni gyalazkodasban elen jar a Magyar Nemzet
nevet meltatlanul hasznalo napilap. Bejelentette: amennyiben a januarra
tervezett tulajdoncserevel sem kovetkezik be hangvetelvaltozas a Szabo
Ivan erdekcsoportjat kiszolgalo, "allamparti es fasiszta izu "bulvarlap"
hasabjain", abban az esetben az FKGP felhivast intez a magyar nephez,
hogy bojkottalja a Magyar Nemzet vasarlasat. Torgyan e kijelentese miatt
a Magyar Nemzet bepereli az FKGP elnoket (Uj M.o., Magyar Nemzet).

Boross Peter az MDF komoly problemairol nyilatkozott a Nepszabad-
sagnak.  A volt zerint az MDF frakcioja valoban megosztott.
Errol tanuskodik a vezetoseg beszamolojarol szuletett mult vasarnapi
16:15 aranyu szavazas. Ez mutatta, hogy a beszamolo nem kapta
meg az alapszabaly szerinti szukseges szotobbseget, az ugyanis 32
szavazatnal 17-et jelentett volna.  Az MDF alelnoke azt is elmondta,
hogy Kulin Ferenc alelnok beszamolojat a partarculat epiteserol a
frakcio nem fogadta el, a tobbi munkacsoportet igen. Arra a kerdesre,
hogy Kulint teszik-e felelosse a part nepszerusegenek rohamos csok-
keneseert, Boross kifejtette, hogy ez tulzas, de bizonyos feladatokra
valo alkalmassag mindig vita lehet egy kozossegen belul. Borss Peter
szerint gyakorta elofordul azt is, hogy tul ambiciozus emberek hamarabb
keresnek nyilvanossagot, mint indokolt volna. Ezert is olvasta rosszked-
vuen Szabo Ivan megfontolatlan nyilatkozatat a Magyar Nemzet december
16-ai szamaban. A volt kormanyfo szerint a parlamenti frakcio magas
szinvonalu munkat vegez, de problema van ennek a kozvelemeny ele
tarasaban. A nyilvanossagnak azt sem tudtak jol bemutatni, hogy az
MDF idoben felhivta a figyelmet a Bokros-csomag alkotmanyellenes
pontjaira. A part meg nem talalta meg sajat nepszerusitesenek
eszkozeit.  Ugy veli, a jovo evi marciusi orszagos gyulesen mindenkeppen
indokolt a parton beluli tisztujitas. Szerinte Bencsik Andras kizarasa
jelentosen megosztotta a valasztmanyt. Fekete Gyorgy kilepese
onkentes volt, de osszefuggott a belso vitakkal. Schamschula Gyorggyel
szemben pedig regebbi keletu szemelyi ellentetek is mutatkoznak.
Boross Peter nem ert egyet Schamschula politikai lepeseivel, es hely-
teleniti tulzott elkotelezettseget a Nemzeti Szovetseg irant, de az is
teny, hogy kormanyanak egyik legsikeresebb minisztere volt. Az MDF-ben
soha nem volt Boross-Schamschula vonal. Rosszizuek azok a kijelentesek,
hogy o a kisgazdakkal valo egyuttmukodest szorgalmazna, de szerinte
nem az MDF-nek kell vallalnia az FKGP-vel szemben elharcot.
Torgyan Jozsef ratalalt valamire, amitol az FKGP nepszerusege sokkal
kedvezobb, mint az MDF-e, es ezt tudomasul kell venni. Boross Peter
szerette volna, ha letrejon a Polgari Szovetseg, de nem ugy, hogy
feladatanak az FKGP elleni kuzdelmet tekinti. Szerinte tudomasul kell
venni a jelenlegi helyzetet, es a lehetseges egyuttmukodes keretei
kozott kell mozogni. A szukseg ugyis megteremti az osszefogas
valamilyen formajat.

Hianyossagokat tart fel, de torvenytelenseget nem allapitott meg az
ellenzek altal "olajgate"-nek nevezett ugy miniszterelnoki vizsgalata.
A kormany allitasa szerint a celok helyesek, de megvalositasuk mod-
jaban hibak tapasztalhatok. El kellett volna kerulni az osszeferhetet-
lenseg latszatat is. Az MSZP frakcioja jovahagyta a vizsgalat megalla-
pitasait. Az Orszaggyules viszont ugy dontott: az ugyet eseti parlamenti
bizottsagnak is ki kell vizsgalni. A testulet elnokenek Demeter Ervint
(MDF) valasztottak (Nepszabadsag).

A Magyarorszagert Alapitvany csutortokon a Magyar Nemzeti Muzeum
nagytermeben nyilvanossagra hozta azoknak a magyar szemelyisegeknek a
nevet, akiknek az utolso fel evszazadban elert kimagaslo szellemi
teljesitmenyeiert Magyar Orokseg-oklevelet adomanyozott. Az
alapitvany azzal a cellal hozta letre, illetve adomanyozta ezentul a
Magyar Orokseg kitunteto cimet, hogy a dijazottak nevet az
aranykonyvbe vesve lathatatlan muzumot letesitsen. Az elso alkalommal
atnyujtott kituntetest Laszlo Gyula regeszprofesszor, Nemeskurty
Istvan iro, tortenesz, (nehai) Neumann Janos, a szamitastechnika
forradalmasitoja, Tokes Laszlo reformatus puspok, Papp Laszlo
haromszoros olimpiai, ketszeres Europa-bajnok okolvivo, az Istvan, a
kiraly cimu rockopera alkotogardaja, valamint a Valahol Europaban
cimu film alkotoi kaptak (Magyar Nemzet).

Ujjaeled az "Egyhazugyi Hivatal"? A kormanyprogramnak ismet ellent-
mondva a jelek szerint ujra megalakult a tavaly megszuntett egyhazi
kapcsolatok titkarsaga a Miniszterelnoki Hivatalban. A titkarsag
vezetesere varhatoan Platthy Ivant, az MKM cimzetes allamtitkarat
nevezik ki (Nepszabadsag).

2. Magyarorszagi Gazdasag

Horn Gyula miniszterelnok elmondta a Vilaggazdasagnak, sokan ugy
itelhetik meg, hogy a kormany kamikazepolitikat folytat, sajat jovoje
ellen dolgozik. Pedig egyszeruen kenyszerpalyarol van szo, dontesek
nincsenek is. A partpolitikai szempontokat elnyomja a "gazdasagi
stabilizalas". 1996-ban is a stabilizacio marad napirenden. A
kormanyfo a felmerult osszeferhetetlensegi problemak ellenere
fontosnak tartja, hogy a vallalkozok is kepviselok maradhassanak,
legfeljebb "a megbizatas idejere fuggesszek fel gazdasagi tevekeny-
seguket". Azt is fontosnak tartotta hangsulyozni: egyetlen dontesi
centrum van az orszag iranyitasaban, es ez a kormany. Ott mindent
megvitathatnak, s meg is vitatnak. Anelkul hogy reszletezte volna
mit ert ez alatt, vagy ismertette volna hogy a parlament bizalmat
elveszto kormanyzatoknak demokraciaban mit kell tenniuk,
kijelentette, nem feltetlenul keresztezi a kormany elkepzeleset az,
hogy a heten a parlament leszavazta a kabinetet, s a kormannyal
szemben ugy dontott, hogy a terven feluli privatizacios bevetelt az
 allamadossag torlesztesere kell forditani. A dontes meglepte,
leginkabb az, hogy az ellenzek milyen egysegesen szavazott a
torlesztes mellett. Az olajugyrol azt mondta: "ez egy sajatosan
magyar  olajgate: egy csepp olaj sincs az ugyben".

Az idei privatizacios bevetelek az ev vegere elerik a 435 milliard
forintot, mikozben az APV Rt.-hez tartozo vagyon erteke 1185 milliard
forintra csokkent, amibol a meg privatizalhato resz 815 milliard
forint - jelentette be Suchman Tamas privatizacios miniszter a
csutortoki sajtotajekoztaton. A bevetelekbol nem csak az idei 150
milliard forintos, hanem a jovo evi 100 milliard forintos
koltsegvetesi befizetesi kotelezettsegnek is eleget tudnak tenni.
Suchman leszogezte, hogy a kormany tovabbra is elkotelezett a
privatizacio vegigviteleben. A tarca nelkuli miniszter arrol is
szolt, hogy "puccsszeruen, a penzugyminiszter keresere" kerult a
parlament ele az a kedden megszavazott modosito javaslat, amely a
privatizacios bevetel 262 milliard forinton feluli reszet is az
allamadossag csokkentesere rendeli forditani. Hozzatette: helyes
volna, ha a penzugyminiszter levonna a megfelelo konzekvenciakat, mert
ez mind etikailag, mind kozjogi szempontbol elfogadhatatlan. Suchman
szemely szerint is egyensulyparti, es egyetert azzal a torekvessel,
hogy az allamadossagot kezelni kell, de szerinte ekkora nagysagrendu
dontes eseten be kellene mutatni az alternativakat. Felhaboritonak
tartja a miniszter azt is, hogy nem kertek ki a velemenyet az APV Rt.
eloiranyzatainak targyalasakor. Bokros Lajos penzugyminiszter
ujsagirok kerdesere "elvallalta" a Gaal-Keller-fele modosito
inditvanyt. Az allamhaztartasi torveny ugyanis eloirja, hogy minden
koltsegvetesi bevetel hova forditasarol rendelkezni kell. Ha nem az
emlitett celra forditanak a terven feluli privatizacios beveteleket,
"borulna" a koltsegvetes kiadasi oldala, s vele a kormany
elkepzelesei a kereslet, az inflacio, a fizetesi merleg
alakulasarol. "Ha eladjuk a csaladi ezustot, attol nem lesz tobb
aru es szolgaltatas az orszagban!" mondotta Bokros, visszautasitva azt
a szemrehanyast, hogy "becsempeszte" volna a modosito inditvanyt:
ugyanolyan technikai, szakmai korrekciorol van szo, mint szamtalan olyan
inditvany eseteben, amelyrol a kormany nem szokott egyenkent szavazni.
Nagy Sandor, az MSZP kepviseloje szerint az Orszaggyules ra lett
kenyszeritve, hogy szavazzon az emlitett modosito inditvanyrol. A
dontest meg kellett volna eloznie egy szeles koru elemzesnek, csak
ezutan lett volna szabad donteni, s nem "puccsszeruen, mindenki
megkerulesevel, ahogyan ez tortent". Szerinte ha a kerdes ujra
elokerul, "es lesz mirol beszelni, tekintettel arra, hogy a
penzugyminiszter es a jegybank elnoke nem fizeti vissza a terven feluli
bevetelt", erdemes lesz ujra attekinteni a penz sorsat (Magyar
Hirlap, Nepszabadsag).

3. Magyar Vonatkozasu Hirek a Vilagpolitikabol

A karacsonyi unnepek alatt fel kivanja keresni a Boszniaban es a kornyezo
orszagokban levo amerikai eroket Robert Dole Elnokvalasztason indult
szenator, aki a republikanus tobbsegu Szenatus vezeto alakja is.
William Perry amerikai vedelmi miniszter januar masodikan es
harmadikan felkeresi a tobbek kozt hazankban is tartozkodo amerikai
csapatokat. A politikus jelezte, hogy Clinton elnok hasonlo latogatast
fontolgat januar masodik felere. (Nepszabadsag).

Az Europaban allomasozo europai csapatok foparancsnoka, Crouch tabornok
kijelentette, hogy Magyarorszagon iszlam fundamentalistak kemei figyelik
az amerikai csapatok felvonulasat. Keleti Gyorgy honvedelmi miniszter ket-
kedett ebben . Az amerikai foparancsnoksag szovivoje, Louis Boone ornagy
elmondta: az altala ismert jelentesek kemtevekenysegrol nem szamolnak
be a nyilvanossagnak (Nepszava).

Andrzej Milczanowski lengyel belugyminiszter Parlamenti meghallgatasa
soran tegnap a nyilvanossag elott azzal vadolta meg Jozef Oleksy kormany-
fot, hogy 1982-1983-tol egeszen 1995-ig egy idegen titkosszolgalattal
allt kapcsolatban. Oleksy cafolta a vadat (Nepszabadsag).

Az izraeli hadsered kiuritette Betlehemet. A varos kozigazgatasat a palesz-
tinok vettek at. Az esti orakban a helyszinre erkezett 80 palesztin rendor.
Karacsony eloestejere mar fel van diszitve a varos (Magyar Hirlap).

Elkepzelheto, hogy az Orosz Alkotmanybirosag ervenyteleniti a valasztasok
eredmenyet, jelentette ki Ivan Ribkin, az orosz duma eddigi elnoke.
A bejutottak listaira ugyanis a voksoknak mindossze kisebbsege, 48.89
szazaleka jutott, mig a kiesett 39 tovabbi part tobbet, osszesen 50.11-et
ert el. Mar a valasztast megelozoen eppen ez a lehetoseg adott okot
talalgatasokra a valasztasi torveny alkotmanyossagat illetoen. Most,
a valasztas utan tobb politikus jelezte, hogy az alkotmanybirosaghoz
fordul. Nem vilagos, hogy a testulet mit tehet, ha az alaptorveny sertonek
talalja a helyzetet. Uj valasztasokat irat ki, eltorolheti, avagy csokkent-
heti az 5 szazalekos kuszobot. Jegor Gajdar, a liberalis reformistak nagy
vesztese viszont meg jobban tart attol: az elnoki posztert folyo versenyfutas
hajrajaban Zsirinonszkijra es Zjuganovra szukul a valasztek (Nepszabadsag).

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And  no NATO membership for the East
And no EU membership until minority nationalities are assimilated

Liviu Iordache writes:

|> I skimmed  recently through the 1992 English edition of the Erdely
|> tortenete. The author(s) dealing with Gesta, sorry I don't recall his
|> (their)  name(s), emphasized as one of the basic premises of analyzing
|> Anonymus that anyone must make the decision of either accepting or
|> disregarding, in its entirely, Master P's Gesta. 

Is it the book with forword by the Hungarian President, Arpad Goncz?
Dima used to just _love_ to recite that fact as evidence of Hungarian
revisionism at the top!

I haven't read the book, but I noticed the reverberations of it in
Bucharest.  I would be curious though as to the reasons the authors
cited for taking Anonymus in an all-or-nothing fashion?  To me that
expectation does not sound reasonable.

|> Due to one of your recent articles, I went recently over the following
|> piece of jewelry:
|> 
|> >>>(Note: Those "Dako-Roman theorists, who welcomed Anonymus' 
|> ''Gelou'' as the found "missing link" between the Daks and modern
|> Rumanians made not only "Gelou", but also "Glad", and the Hungarian
|> Menumorut as "Wallachian Princes" of X. Century Transylvania. Of
|> course, these historians forget to mention that the same Anonymus also
|> called the Magyars as "the people of the great King Attila[i.e.,. the
|> Hun].") <<< [Haraszti, E., 1972, Origin of the Romanians (Vlach
|> Origin, Migration, and Infiltration to Transylvania). Danubian
|> Research Center.]
|> 
|> I never heard of this guy before, but I strongly doubt that his work
|> ranks high enough to be included in a Hungarian page on the History of
|> Transylvania.

I don't think Haraszti is a historian by profession; more likely only by
hobby.  Judging from his extensive bibliography, he decided to write a
condensed version of what he found in other books on the subject.  His
target audience was obviously not historians, but the English speaking
lay public.  At the time of publication it was a fairly accepted belief
in the Hungarian diaspora that most English language books on the
subject of Transylvania were only showing the Romanian side of the
controversy.  Because the Hungarian communist regime was not willing to
address that imbalance, some amateur historians took it upon themselves
to inform the West, so to speak.  I have a feeling that this Haraszti
book is a product of that effort.  Frankly, I've seen much worse coming
out of Florida. ;-)  Besides, its size is reasonably short, thus better
fit for Web page storage than a lengthy (and often boring) tome.

|> First, Menumorout,  "the Moravian Stallion," is nowhere
|> in Gesta described as Hungarian; he is presented as a ruler over
|> Kavars, who declines "with a Bulgarian heart," to yield any part of
|> his territory to Arpad.

Actually, Kavars (or Kabars) was one of the tribes from Khazaria joining 
Arpad's Magyar tribes in the conquest.  Some historians speculate that
they were adherents of the Jewish faith.  Anyway, Hungarians call the
guy Menmarot (with accent marks over the e and o, such as Me'nmaro't)
who resisted the agreed upon rule of Arpad and his descendents.
Don't ask me where the evidence is for this belief; I am only telling
you what we were taught in school about it.

|> Secondly, Anonymus named "the Siculi," not the
|> Magyars,  as the "populi Atthyle regius". Finally, Haraszti's theory
|> on the " Hun-Avar-Late Avar-Magyar chain" almost starts me thinking a
|> bit more highly of the Daco-Roman continuity :-)

Well, one of the problems may be that Haraszti's references are almost
entirely pre-WWII, but I must tell you that it is a common belief
amongst the Siculi (Szekely) themselves that they are the people of
Csaba, the son of Attila, the Hun.  So that belief goes against another,
later Attila.  Then there is another school that believes that the
Siculi are remnants of some late Avar, pre-Arpad Magyars or some
relatives of Magyars.  I don't know of any Hun-Avar link, but the 
late Avar-Magyar connection does have a serious following among
Hungarian historians and archeologists.  Prof. Gyula Laszlo is the most
prominent, if not originator, of this school of Dual Conquest, of which
Arpad's was the second, but most recorded one.  So therefore Haraszti
is not that far off with his treatment of this subject vis-a-vis the
current nainstream Hungarian historians.  Fact is though, that these
are not firmly held dogmas, but rather working theories in an attempt
to solve some historical puzzles.  This can hardly be said about the
Daco-Roman Continuity theory and its place in mainstream Romanian
history teaching.  So don't rush to reconsider your views about that
theory just yet!

|> Yes, this is why I called Gesta a
|> *reasonably* accurate and logical historical account.:-)
|>  Actually, his opinion is pretty good evidence that by Vlachs he meant
|> the Romanian shepherds, not the Latin-speaking Franks.  As a matter of
|> fact,  Western annals, contemporary to the Honfoglalas, recorded many
|> unflattering descriptions of the marauding uncivilized Ungari. Do you
|> take them for granted?

Actually, I was only teasing, but I must tell you that Hungarian history
text books do tell us about the unpleasant things the contemporary
Western "media" wrote about our marauding predecessors.  (Warts and
all...)  But I don't quite follow why Master P's damning comments about
Vlachs support a reasonably accurate and logical historical account.
After all, he just as well could have back-projected his feelings about
the Vlachs to the events 300 years before, no?

|> He might be one of the most suitable guests for your 1100th
|> Honfoglalas celebration. BTW, is there a specific day for this
|> anniversary? 

Indeed, and thanks for the excellent idea!  We just finished a history
lecture series about more recent Hungarian history and there was enough
interest in that to expect good attendance for a Boba "myth-busting"
series.  Oh, there is no specific day associated with the Honfoglalas.
Special commemorative events are scheduled throughout '96.

|> That's debatable. Recently, Martin Eggers, building partly on Boba's
|> thesis and utilizing archeological evidence, as well as an impressive
|> array of written sources, suggested that Ratislav's capital, Margus,
|> was a fortress on Mures, mentioned by some sources as urbs Morisena,
|> (later Maroswar, modern Hungarian Marosvar), and known today as Cenad
|> in Romanian (near Sinnicolau Mare). Therefore, if Eggers is correct,
|> at least the eastern part of Transylvania and most of Banat was at
|> that time under the influence of megale Moravia.

Yes, I've seen your exchanges on this with Tony and I could hardly wait
for the fireworks! ;-)  I think you are about to find out about Tony and
his (to some of us) familiar "boiler plate" history.  I don't know how
this new theory of Moravian Empire will hold up against competing
theories, but I am glad to see some original thinking on some of these
subjects.  This theory would not clash too much with what the Hungarians
maintained about Conquest-era Transylvania, namely that it was sparsely
populated, primarily by Bulgarian and Slavic elements.  Let me not tell
you from what direction most attacks will come against this new theory
though. ;-)

|> >That, however, could hardly be considered a proof for
|> >the Daco-Roman continuity theory.
|> 
|> You got this one right! A 9th century  Vlach presence in Transylvania
|> cannot be considered proof for or, as a matter of fact,  against the
|> Daco-Roman continuity. 

That's right.  You have already presented plenty of circumstantial
evidence against the Continuity elsewhere. ;-)

|> No. I am extremely well acquainted with his work and great fan of his
|> breaker-of-myths mentality, but if I mislead anybody in believing that
|> I know Boba personally, I regret the poor choice of words.

No prob!  From your keen interest I could also imagine that you actually
knew Prof. Boba.

Getting back to Haraszti's book, I have not read it through yet, but
from what I've read about the origin of Romanians, it is not that
different from what you maintain.  Care to comment where you see some
major differences between the two?

With this, I also want to wish you and all readers of good will Merry
Christmas and/or Happy Holidays!

Joe Pannon

Please  Angle so I Could Understand