Thank you very much for passing on Kornai's article. How do I subscribe
to "Hirmondo"?

Ivan Marki

My name appears above lines written by others! I do not agree with the
sentiment in those lines and explained so once. Eva Durant

>
> On Fri, 2 Sep 1994, H. MARC wrote:
>
> > Eva Durant:
> >    Just because religion might be useless to you (and me) does not mean tha
t
> > it is without use.  In other words perhaps the majority (not the moral
>
> > majority) of the human race needs some sort of religion.  Not everyone can
>                                                             ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > reason and think in a logical manner.
etc

Hey, I really appreciate some of the responses I got to
my question regarding the backwardness of religion.
Unfortunately, I've heard all of them before and mulled over them
quite a few times already.  IMHO the reasons cited

------ examples -----

> So in the name of religion there weren't tonnes of people
> murdered/tortured/persecuted through history? (And at this very moment).

> Religion restricts this play of choice and adaptation, since it
> imposes equally on everyone its own path to the aquisition of happiness and
> protection from suffering.  Its technique consists in depressing the value of
> life and distorting the picture of the real world in a delusional manner--
> which presupposes an intimidation of the intelligence.  At this price, by
> forcibly fixing them in a state of psychical infantilism, and by drawing
> them into a mass-delusion, religion succeeds in sparing many people an
> individual neurosis.
(Freud quotation).

----- end examples -----

are representative of a problem that goes beyond religion (any dictatorship/
system can torture/murder/persecute, and in whose name is really irrelevant).
As far as being intimidating, Freud can't complain himself.  If there ever was
someone unbending, childish and authoritarian, he was it (note: this isn't a
personal slam on him as much as a demonstration that he was guilty of the exact
same thing he was condemning religion for, demonstrating yet again, that the
problem goes far deeper, or at least we can't blame religion for it).


> I attended a state high school (and a really bad one: Haman Kato),
> had a good time collecting information not necessary provided by the
> curriculum. When I left, I'd found that in most areas I was better
> informed than the average. What more, when children leave Hungary
> (I have examples for USA, UK, France and Italy) after mastering
> the new language, they are at the "top". This either means that
> the Hungarian system has given them a good start in the 80s or
> all my friends and relations are geniuses...


Hmmm... I'm afraid we got a bit off the topic here.  I never claimed
the Hungarian high-school system on the whole isn't far above the public
school system here in the States, but that was not my point. (BTW, I would
argue with being "on top" in a French school system.  I attended French
schools for 4 years and they were quite strong by the highest standards).
Anyway, the point is that religion intimidating the intelligence, distorting
the picture of the real world and being the *cause* of torture/murder/
persecution is innaccurate and presumptuous.  (Also, as you yourself state,
you were collecting information not neccessarily provided by the curriculum...
You could do that same thing anywhere ;-)

> >
> > It seems to me that the idea of religion being escapist and backwards
> > is mostly held by people who cannot accept the proposition that
> > there might be some things we, as humans, may never understand and/or find
> > out.
> The very meaning of humanness is curiosity, if it wasn't we would be
> still in  caves/ unless ofcourse it is all becouse of that apple...

Of course I agree that curiosity is one of the carachteristic traits of humans.
I wouldn't go so far as to say it is *the meaning* of humanness though.
As far as the apple is concerned, there was a long discussion in VITA about
the misconceptions concerning the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The apple does not represent knowledge in a universal sense, simply the
knowledge of good and evil (which, according to the story was not needed in Ede
n
since Adam and Eve were innocent).  That doesn't mean they couldn't be
 curious...
But that's a whole other story... ;-)

> > books to see how many believers have made major contributions to -- what I
> > assume you think is -- progress.
>
> They were curious believers, I tell you!

Of course!  We all are! (methinks), but that's the whole point.
Reading Maxwell, Faraday, Newton, Kepler, Einstein (on the natural sciences
side) or Pascal, Locke, Popper, Johnson (on the philosophical side) offers the
"other side" of the story.

Example textbook: Modern Times by Paul Johnson (British).  I can give many more
references but this one's a good start.  Also, before red flags go up, remember
this: it's a book written not as propaganda, and not by a religious figure, but
one of today's most respected and knowledgeable historians.

That's it!  Really!  ;-)

Jeliko writes
> ...colipheus...

The cards and letters are pouring in, but no one has volunteered
a definition for the above.  I've run my limit of dictionaries,
and colipheus is not to be found.  Is this maybe a (dog?) latin alternate
to "bigwig"?

Someone indulge a harmless drudge and explain...


--Greg

Hungary (the list) is far and away the best reading of any list on which
I've lurked.  Take for example the recent upwelling of commentary on
religion extending not just to the interaction of state and religion in
Hungary, USA, Australia, UK and elswhere, but a tangent strikes off into
death and dieing, the etymological background of angel names, etc etc.
In that vein, I can not resist sharing the following tie into
educational mores.  It arrrived at my desk several years ago and has
been treasured ever since -- perhaps most tellingly in September when
classes start up again.

       The Lesson
       ----------

     Then Jesus took his disciples up to the mountain and
     gathering them around him, taught them saying:
       Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom
            of heaven...
       Blessed are the meek...
       Blessed are the merciful...
       Blessed are they that thirst for justice...
       Blessed are you when persecuted...
       Blessed are you when you suffer...
       Be glad and rejoice for your reward is great in heaven.

     Then Simon Peter said, "Are we supposed to know this?"
     And Andrew said, "Do we have to write this down?"
     And James said, "Do we have to show our work?"
     And Phillip said, "May I go to the bathroom?"
     And Bartholemew said, "Do we have to turn this in?"
     And John said, "The other disciples didn't have to learn this."
     And Matthew said, "I don't have any paper."
     And Thomas said, "Will we have a test on this?"
     And Judas said, "What does this have to do with real life?"
     Then one of the Pharisees who was present asked to see
     Jesus' lesson plan and inquired of Jesus, "Where is your
     anticipatory set and your objectives in the cognitive
     domain?"

-----
After all, religion - like laughter, adds significance to our lives.
Tsz     ing tsz ing

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subscribe hungary 

Greg inquired:

>Jeliko writes
>> ...colipheus...

>The cards and letters are pouring in, but no one has volunteered
>a definition for the above.  I've run my limit of dictionaries,
>and colipheus is not to be found.  Is this maybe a (dog?) latin alternate
>to "bigwig"?

>Someone indulge a harmless drudge and explain...


I have no latin dictionary handy, but 'korifeus' is used in Hungarian
intellectual slang to denote a high authority (in the moral or knowledge
sense  rather than an institutional figure).  I suppose the Latin spelling
would be 'coripheus' or somesuch, but it may well have originated in Greek
by the sound of it.

George Antony

George Antony writes:

> I have no latin dictionary handy, but 'korifeus' is used in Hungarian
> intellectual slang to denote a high authority (in the moral or knowledge
> sense  rather than an institutional figure).  I suppose the Latin spelling
> would be 'coripheus' or somesuch, but it may well have originated in Greek
> by the sound of it.

Thank you.  My nagyszo1ta1r confirms you.  It gives "leader, chief" as the
English; says it's from the Greek for bellwether.

--Greg

House to let:
in the XII. distr. brand. new private house with panorama:
170 sqm with 2 bathrooms, 2 kitchens, 3 bedrooms, 1 living room,
1 hobby room, garage, and telephone to let from the Oktober 1994. for
2-3 years.
If interested, please write to: Tamas Gerzselyi, HUNGARY, Budapest,
H-1121 Hajnalka u. 8.

___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.12

On Fri, 2 Sep 1994, H. MARC wrote:

> Eva Durant:
>    Just because religion might be useless to you (and me) does not mean that
> it is without use.  In other words perhaps the majority (not the moral

> majority) of the human race needs some sort of religion.  Not everyone can
                                                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> reason and think in a logical manner.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Not everyone but hardly everyone except the insanes.



> In fact most people can't.  Most people
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^
> are ignorant, just look at the people they put in office.  Just look at the
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> music they put on top 40.  Just look at the books that fill the bookstores.
> The fastfood joints that take over Paris and Budapest.  People are in general
,
> stupid.  "There is a sucker born every minute."-PT Barnum
>     These people need religion.  They can't think.  They can only regurgitate
> (yes, I know I spelled that wrong...just because I am illiterate, does not
> mean I am stupid, does it?) what they hear on the radio, on the TV, and in
> their church halls... And perhaps on Internet as well....



They are not! You have listed above are true but the reason of it isn't
people's ignorant. The reason is the power of money. It makes people to
become into well manipulatible mass.(see: TV... etc ) They/We need
                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^
religion to save them from regurgitation, and to keep human dignity.
^^^^^^^^
To see each other not only somebody else but a person...




> Society needs
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> believers in order to function.  Without the masses buying into the christian
  ^^^^^^^^^
> work ethic, nothing would get done (for nothing).......marc
>



I agree with you.