While Jeliko's explanation of the collapse of Communist rule is true as far
as it goes, it omits a final and, I think, decisive factor--the utter *moral*
bankruptcy of the Communist regimes.

Udv.,
Be'la

In responding to my comments d. a. wrote

>one part of the soviet union was a region containing the carpathians
>which had
>a substantial jewish population. it is a region which hungary has long
>claimed for itself. you know, ungvar, beregszasz, etc. there, before the
>last war, the jewish population was one of the largest  -- there was no
>majority, just smaller or larger minorities, and the vast majority of the
>jews there spoke hungarian as their first language, and still do. the
>first violinist of the borodin quartet is such an example.to the extant
>that hungarians wish to lay a claim on transylvania, southern slovakia,
>the banat and ruthenia, hungary is laying a claim on jewish population as
>well.

    I don't quite follow. Have you heard about a deal regarding Sub-Carpatia
being returned as well? In that case, I don't think too many people would
object.

>as for anit-semitism in hungary, it is something the jews of hungary
>frequently mention. that the non-jews are less concerned about it is
>understandable. very few slave-owners thought they were doing anything
>moral reprehensible.

    Fair enough. But how does that alleged Hungarian anti-semitism manifest
itself? Are Jews discriminated against in certain positions? Are they
numerically underrepresented in positions of money and power? (I already know
they are overrepresented in science and art.) Just what is the ratio
of Jews in the Hungarian population anyway?
                                                      M. C.

Has anyone read or read about Kapuchinsky's (sorry if I spelled his name
wrong) new book, IMPERIUM?  Not directly linked to Hungary but it tells
the story of the crumpling of the Soviet Empire.  I Have been meaning to
buy a copy but wanted to know first if anyone else has read it before I
shell out 30 bux or so....marc

H Marc writes:

> Where the Rosenberg's guilty of treason?  Probably yes.  However executing
> somebody for treason is still a human rights violation in my book.  It
isstill
> a 'political execution'.
>      The Rosenbergs should be forgiven and even rewarded with some sort of
> Norwegian peace prize.  For in giving the atomic weapons technology to the
> Soviets they saved the western world.  Yes, the Rosenbergs prevented WWIII
from
> happening.  The Rosenbergs helped destroy Soviet Empire.  The Rosenbergs
should
> be remembered as heros who died in the name of peace!!! -(ok, so maybe I am
> just playing the devil's advocat) ...marc

Yeah, and murderers prevent the overpopulation of the earth and they should
be rewarded. A Malthusian Nobel prize to Hitler and Stalin.

Regards,Jeliko.

Re: Discussion about Gypsies

Considerable information on the Gypsies of Eastern Europe can be found
in the following book:

        Crowe, D. and J. Kolsti, The Gypsies of Eastern Europe. M.E.
        Sharpe, Inc. Armonk, NY 1991 (paperback edition, 1992).

The book devotes separate chapters to the situation of Gypsies in
each of the countries in the region and also discusses in some detail
the Romani Porajmos (Gypsy Holocaust). According to Simon Wiesenthal, up
to 80% of Gypsies in Nazi-occupied Europe were exterminated. Thus, the
losses suffered by the Gypsy community, as a percentage of the group,
was higher than that of any other ethnic or religious group.

C.K. Zoltani

The Oxford Companion to the Politics of the World, (or was it
World Politics?)

Anyways, here are two paragraphs:

                        ***
        With the restoration of the old constitution in 1920,
Hungary became a fully independant kingdom, the actual head of state
being Admiral Miklo1s Horthy.  The impartial rule of law generally
prevailed, and the franchise was initially extended to two-thirds
of the adult population, then trimmed again; only the Communist
Party was proscribed.  Until 1944 a variable coalition known as
the governing party ruled Hungary.  The dominant political values
were irredentist nationalism, inspired by the Treaty of Trianon,
which reduced the country's territory and population by two-thirds,
and a conservatism hostile not only to left and right radicalism
but to bourgeois liberalism as well.  The political opposition
encompassed the Social Democrats, who however had agreed to limit
their activity; a populist movement that focused on the needs of
the peasantry; and, in the late 1930s, right-wing radicals,
including the fascist Arrow Cross party.  The government enacted
a limited land reform and social welfare measures and labored to
surmount the economic consequences of territorial truncation and
the depression; industrialization received a boost from the
expansion of German economic influence.

        Hungary adhered to the Axis to win the return of some
territory at the expense of Czechoslovakia in 1938 and of
Romania in 1940.  Its participation in the war against the
Soviet Union was so grudging that in 1944 Germany occupied the
country and imposed an Arrow Cross dictatorship.  At year's end,
a provisional government of former opposition parties and
Communists was created under Soviet auspices.
                        ***


--Greg

Hugh Angnew and Be'la Batkay suggested to start my search about the life
in the Dual Monarchy-s army with Istvan Deak's 1990 book entitled 'BEYOND
NATIONALISM - A Social and Political History of the Habsburg Officers
Corp, 1848-1918' (A real academic title!).

I borrowed it from the library yesterday, and read a good portion of it by
now. It is very good and informative. It gives most of the basic
information, but  Prof. Elteto's observation that the 'matter is
complicated' is an understatement. It seems that I will have to read quite
a bit more to have a sense how the system actually worked for the common
soldier.

On the question of recruitment Deak say that the service was compulsory
after 1868. But only one of three of my ancestors, who reached the
military age (20 years) in that period, served in the army.  How did the
others get out? They were tradesmen, taller than the required height of
155 cm, and quite healthy, lived a long life. Deak quotes numbers on the
size of the army, but it is difficult to work out from it what percentage
of the population was drafted.

Regarding the type and length of service the Deak book is quite helpful.
In the Joint Army (cs. e's kir.)  3 years active service, was followed by
7 years in reserve, and then two years in reserves with the National
Guard. A total of 12 years.  The document I have do not separate the
active and reserve service time. The lucky 20% who served only in the
National Guard got away with only 2 years active service.  Looks like my
great-grandfather was one of the unlucky one, and served in the Joint
Army. I don't know how much of a nuisance the reserve duty was.

Deak also describes briefly the life of the common solders as quite
miserable, low pay, and poor living conditions. It is therefore no
surprise that there was a high suicide rate in the Habsburg Army.

The Bibliography of the Deak book is extensive, unfortunately most of the
references are in German. Looks like I have to re-read The Good Solder
Schweik and search for other literary references to learn about life in
the Monarchy's Barracks. I would appreciate any suggesions on other
references in Hungarian or English.

Thanks for the help.
          Barni Bozoki

according to ftp://ftp.sunet.se/pub/music/lyrics/

                        ***

                        JOE HILL


I dreamt I saw Joe Hill last night,
Alive as you or me
Says I, "But Joe, you're ten years dead,"
"I never died," says he
"I never died," says he

"In Salt Lake, Joe," says I to him,
Him standing by my bed,
"They framed you on a murder charge,"
Says Joe, "But I ain't dead,"
Says Joe, "But I ain't dead."

"The copper bosses killed you, Joe,
They shot you, Joe," says I.
"Takes more than guns to kill a man,"
Says Joe, "I didn't die,"
Says Joe, "I didn't die."

And standing there as big as life
And smiling with his eyes
Joe says, "What they forgot to kill
Went on to organize,
Went on to organize."

"Joe Hill ain't dead," he says to me,
"Joe Hill ain't never died.
Where working men are out on strike
Joe Hill is at their side,
Joe Hill is at their side."

"From San Diego up to Maine,
In every mine and mill,
Where workers strike and organize,"
Says he, "You'll find Joe Hill,"
Says he, "You'll find Joe Hill."

I dreamt I saw Joe Hill last night,
Alive as you or me
Says I, "But Joe, you're ten years dead,"
"I never died," says he
"I never died," says he

> -----------------------------------------------------------------

Music by Earl Robinson, copyright 1938 by Bob Miller, Inc.

Joe Hill, a great organizer and poet, was executed in 1915 on a
murder charge which union circles have always considered a frame-
up.  This song, written in his memory, is one of the most moving
of all the labor songs.
Recorded by Paul Robeson, Baez- One Day at a Time
                        ***

That's Joe Hill.

--Greg

The community of Hodasz (Szabolcs-Szatmar-Bereg megye) ask me to help them.
They decided to built a Gypsy Church. It is probable the first this kind of
Church in Hungary, maybe in Europe too. It could open in November 1994.
They need more dation for the last step. I hope anybody can  help them.
Their account is: HODA'SZ E'S  VIDE'KE TAKARE'KSZO"VETKEZET
                    Hoda's
         number:449-98400-000-91
                                      Thank you
                                                     M.

Andra1s Kornai writes:

> ...Gro1sz's opinion: it
> is largely true that "the change of regime occurred not as the result of
> internal causes, but rather as a result of events taking place in Europe."
[...]
> To some extent Hungary enjoyed the benefit of the
> USSR-internal decay, as well as the benefit of Polish, Czechoslovak, and
> East German dissatisfaction. However, there was no Western European process,
> attitude, or event, that played a significant role...

German, Italian, British cooperation (basing missiles, etc.) with
Reagan's arms build-up?

--Greg

I am not excusing the White terror, but it surely was influenced by the Red
terror, could be compared to revenge killings. Killing begots killing.
So the White terror was partially caused by the Red terror. Without it
it would never happened. But the Red terror was caused by ideology. Surely
such a thing is more despicable.

I understand that Horn promised to open up a few more investments for those
with compensation coupons. I very much hope so because I have quite a few and
don't have a clue what to do with them except selling them at half price to
speculators, something I refuse to do. I would be quite ready to invest them
in some former Hungarian state companies, and most likely loose mightily on
the investment. Eva Balogh

I certainly agree with Ga1bor Ko3ro2s and Andra1s Kornai that the demise of
the Soviet Union, or rather the Soviet Union's indifference to the events in
Eastern Europe, was absolutely necessary to alter the political situation in
the region. Gro1sz is certainly correct pointing this out. But my second
question has not been answered: was it a revolution from above? As it is well
known the Hungarian opposition was a very small one. Moreover, they were
voices in the wilderness. Both Poland and Czechoslovakia boasted with a much
larger and active opposition with popular support. Andra1s mentioned the
opening of the border as one of the components of the political change. But
wasn't that a decision coming from above? What was the participation of the
populace in the events leading up to the political changes of 1990?

By the way, Ga1bor Ko3ro2si is quite right: there are many interesting bits
and pieces in the Gro1sz interview. If I have a minute in the next couple of
days I will share them with the list members. Eva Balogh

Anyone hear from Wolverine lately?  I wanted to know if another potluck
was planned for DC this year.  Does anyone know about it?

Paul