(Dan Pop) wrote:

>
>Anyway, for some obscure reasons, the Hungarians from USA and Canada seem
>seem to despair orders of magnitude more than those from Transylvania.
>
>Dan
>--
>Dan Pop
>CERN, CN Division
>Email: 
>Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

Perhaps that is due to tha fact that Hungarian-Americans and
Hungarian-Canadians have far better chance at getting to Internet than
Hungarians in Transylvania.  Once on the Internet, they seem to run into
a lot of people from other lands, like Romanians from Switzerland, the
US, etc.  (Unless Romania is now claiming Switzerland as part of their
ancestral place, too.)

Charles Vamossy

Dan Pop wrote:

>Of course, they knew pretty well that they couldn't sell me
>the usual hostile propaganda, which is good only for export to people who
>have no clue about Romania's realities and are ready to buy anything
>about the Hungarian and Gypsy "discrimination", "genocide", "oppression",

I'm sure this is no different than those Romanians who keep criticizing
the US and Americans in s.c.r. won't tell that directly to their
American neighbors and coworkers.

Joe

Dear Colleagues,

At the United Nations, the Pope dealt with self-determinaton for ethnic and
cultural groups and defended the right of such groups to maintain their
culture and identity. He suggested that the rights of nations should be
articulated by the UN, similarly to the Universal Declaration of Human
Rights. The Pope did not equate "nation" with "state", but used the term:
nation, to label ethnic, linguistic or cultural groups who share a common
heritage or identity. He stated, that such ethnic or cultural consciousness
"must not be underestimated or regarded as a simple leftover of the past,"
but should be respected as a "fundamental spiritual sovereignty." He asked
the UN to guarantee the right of such "national-groups" the right of their
own language, culture and the education of their young.

I think it would be appropriate for us to add our voices to those who will
both thank the Pope for His historical words and also to those, who will urge
the Secretary General of the UN to act on His request.

Bela Liptak

Szervusztok!

I am looking for vintage info about Hungarian wines in different regions
for another mailing list. Can anybody help me? Kvszvnvm szipen!

best regards,
Pekka Kurki
Intellectics GesmbH
A-2551 Ezesfeld, Austria

" by 50,000 since 1945 - a few hundred thousand consider themselves
>"Yugoslav".  Another thing is the 1956 help that Serbia provided to
>Hungarian heroes - several tens of thousands fled to Serbia, of which
>some 15,000 permanently settled.  No one has seen any problem with that,
>so there should be some understanding for homeless (previously rich)
>Serbs from Krajina.
>
>Cheers.

As a direct result of the Revolution of 1956 in Hungary 19,880 Hungarian
refugees crossed the border to Yugoslavia. 2,780 of them returned to
Hungary, 16,610 departed for other countries, mainly to the West. By June
1960 only 500 of them remained in Yugoslavia.
Source: Report of the Statistical Office of the United Nations High
Commissioner for Refugees, National Archives of Canada, Records of the
Department of External Affairs, RG 25, 86-87/336, Volume 160, File
5475-EA-4-40.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

Laszlo Petrovics-Ofner wrote:

>The terrible danger
>in such people, as Csurka's Oct. 22 call to rally suggests, a day
>before Memorial, is that they abuse real, felt needs in the populace
>for personal gain.

Or, maybe he really believes in his views.  If you disagree with his
views, fine (I'm not really sure what his views are, as I've never
read what he's written) but you have nothing to base your views on
that he's acting for his own personal gain.  He may have strong
convictions which are in contrast to your's, and he is allowed that.

Paul Gelencser

Boris Bjelica writes:

>>Indeed, Serbia and Hungary should find a common language easily.  But,
>>Serbia has to change politically, and Hungary has to acknowledge that
>>Serbia is its primary interest and a friend (so does Serbia).  Hungary
>>must claim full neutrality in the Yugo war and not try to get cheap
>>points with Americans and western Europeans on accusing "Serbian beast"
>>when its clear that no one in Yugoslavia is innocent.

On the personal level, the Serbians were my favorite among the central
europians. But wrong is wrong, and beleiving in the right of self-
determination,  most hungarians fault Serbia with agression.
This has nothing to do to listening to western voices, unfortunatelly
it a fact. Even if the other side is not pure,  Serbia is more to blame.
All nationalities ar capable of atrocities. Unfortunatelly it is now
Serbians turn. I hope it will teach humility and tolerance. (i.e.
"We serbians are not better than the croats, germans and other nations.")

I personally find that the hungarian goverment did not support
sufficiently the bosnians.

>>Overall, this problem is not an ethnic problem, it's pure politics.  As
>>soon as the war stops, things will settle.

Yes. But allmost all ethnic problems are politics. Lot of the rumanians
and slovaks get along well with the hungarians, the problems are
with the leaders.

>>Compare to Transylvania,
>>Vojvodina has always been a peaceful ethnic mixture (26 nationalities).
True. Unfortunatelly it is in the past. Hopefully (but I am not sure)
it will be in the future.

Thanks for people like Boris.


Sandor Lengyel.

Do you want penpals and e-mailpals all around the world? Send me an e-mail
for information.

If Sole Hungarian citizens still do not understand the important
difference between Humboldt FELLOWSHIP (to which young scientists
MUST APPLY TO) and Humboldt PRIZE (not to be confused with Nobel
Prize), they can ask further information from the
Alexander von Humboldt Foundation ).

Pellionisz claims he had over a hundred publications which
preceeded the Humboldt Prize. Quite a considerable number of
his scientific publications are short (very short) abstracts.
Peer-reviewed, perhaps, similarly to HIX publications.

A. Bossy just could not resist to come all the way to this list to
dish out some more of his ad hominems, wrapped in transparent
politically correctly sounding packaging.

>       A big problem that I find in dealing with forced assimilation in
>Romania today is dealing with the Joe Pannons of the world.  What Hungary
>did before 1919 was far worse than what Romania is doing today.  Yet,
>Joe, et. al. strenuously defend it.

This is just self-serving propoganda, for I never did what he is
accusing me with.  As on like on this list in the past when the topic was
the Horthy regime, I objected to Romanian characterization of past
Hungarian government actions being characterized far worse than they were.
Of course, as most Hungarians know, not accepting (or even ridiculing)
their version of History is the eighth deadly sin in their eyes.
I also object to the use of today's standard of human rights being applied
retroactively to 19th century.  Hungary's treatment of her minorities
should be compared to such treatment by other countries at that time,
not now.  Just like Romania's treatment of her minorities should be
compared with contemporary standards.

The standard Romanian PR trick is trying to excuse their current treatment of
Hungarian minority by saying what Bossy was saying here: it's just a
manifestation of lack of democracy for ALL Romanians, not just
Hungarians.  But the kind of news items like the one reported in the
Hungarian media today from the opening ceremonies at the Bolyai-Bebes
University in Cluj/Kolozsvar gives a lie to Bossy's all too obvious
damage control attempts.

Joe Pannon

Who was the Hungarian/east european, that was
a millionaire businessman from Southern California
and returned to his native country to become the
head of the state ?

Expecting an early response at 

Thanks so much for your time
AC

>Who was the Hungarian/east european, that was
>a millionaire businessman from Southern California
>and returned to his native country to become the
>head of the state ?

You are probably referring to the former PM of Serbia, Milan Panic.
He quit or was not re-elected (?) and returned to the US after a while.

Joe Pannon

Janos Szamosfalvi ) wrote:

: Acts speak for themselves.   And the Ru[o]manian government has
: provided ample evidence showing that "discrimination" is real;
: "oppression" is very subjective hence it's a rather murky issue,
: however, usually there's no smoke without fire; "genocide" is most
: likely a result of exaggeration.  Of course, "cultural genocide"
: is a completely different matter.

        Hi Janos:

        I have a few points that I want to make.  First of all, most of the
"discrimination" against ethnic Hungarian citizens of Romania that has been
brought to our attention is really more evidence of the present regime's
anti-democratic tendancies.  That doesn't justify them, of course, but it
does mean that the proper way to deal with them is not on Hungarian vs.
Romanian battle lines, but rather on democratic vs.
neo-communist/ultra-nationalist lines.  Focusing on ethnic Hungarian
rights to the exclussion of basic democratic rights for all Romanians, of
whatever ethnicity, merely playes into the government's hands.
        "Cultural" genocide is a b.s. term.  Genocide means killing
people because of their ethnicity.  Forced assimilation means forcing
people to give up their ethnicity.  They are fundamentally different
practices, and borrowing of the word genocide to make forced assimilation
sound worse than it is just cheapens real genocide when and where it does
happen.  It is important to remember that Romanian and Hungarians have to
often been guilty of forcible assimilation of the other group, but have
never engaged in real genocide (as opposed to the odd masacre during
WWII) against each other.  Please, lets not confuse the two.

        A big problem that I find in dealing with forced assimilation in
Romania today is dealing with the Joe Pannons of the world.  What Hungary
did before 1919 was far worse than what Romania is doing today.  Yet,
Joe, et. al. strenuously defend it.  That weakens the arguments of us
moderates.  After all, if Hungarians post in defense of Magyarization
last century, why is Romanianization today shameful?  Consequently, part
of the mandatory groundwork to making ethnic Hungarians equal citizens of
Romania is to acknowledge what some Hungarians of last century did to the
Romanians of Transylvania was wrong, and urging that it not be repeated
in reverse today.  Please post on that subject when it comes up.  That
will show everyone that good people on both sides of the ethnic divide do
feel that there are certain rights that minorities have, and that
whatever government, Romanian or Hungarian, that violates them should be
condemned, and that we are not dealing with Hungarian territorial ambitions.
        Differing versions of history on both sides is the most important
impediment to reconciliation.  Therefore, at least an occasional
willingness to look back at history, and admit that the other side has a
point is very important.

        Alexander

>I am looking for vintage info about Hungarian wines in different regions
>for another mailing list. Can anybody help me? Kvszvnvm szipen!

You can find information about a wide variety of Hungarian wines (and even
order them!) at <http://www.isys.hu/wine/wine_e.html>;.

Best regards,

--Edward Schmidt

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward Schmidt                                                
iSYS Hungary Kft.                                               
Internet Solutions                                        http://www.isys.hu
1051 Budapest, Sas u.9.                                      (36-1) 266 6090
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------