Mizujs?

Mihai Caragiu wrote:

>For the present discussion it is irrelevant the fact that Seton-Watson
>took also a strong stand against Austro-Hungarian propaganda machine.

What Austro-Hungarian propoganda machine?  The problem was, that almost
everybody else in the neighborhood had propoganda machines in the West,
_except_ the Hungarians!  Seaton-Watson, Masarik had the field almost
totally for themselves.

>I proved here that his credentials as an historian are strong enough,
>so Madamme Eva Balogh can _safely_ assume he is OK professionally.

I think you forget something here.  It's been almost a century since
Seaton-Watson was at the height of his career and it is enough time for
current historians to re-examine his work with the benefit of hindsight.
To do that credibly, one does not have to be as prominent today as S-W
was in his time.

Joe Pannon

Jan George Frajkor writes:

>> MacCartney is also considered by Slovaks to be relatiavely
>>objective and if anything, on their side.

So what I read him, and I also found him (objective = liked his opinion).
Maybe we (hungarians) are not so bigoted after all. So the fact that
we agree over MacCartney but not over Seton-Watson, tells you something.

Sandor.

P.S. In a previous article I named MacCartney erronously MacCarthy.

Please add me to your list.

George Frajkor writes:

>MacCartney is also considered by Slovaks to be relatiavely
>objective and if anything, on their side.

I also consider him to be as balanced as anyone can be given that part of the
world and I am glad that the Slovaks also consider him to be relatively
objective. On the other hand, Seton-Watson was clearly a propagandist and he
received the honorary degrees out of gratitude. Poor Macartney didn't fare so
well in communist Hungary. It was only at the very end of the 80s, when he
was very old that he was invited by the Hungarian Academy to give a speech or
something and he might have gotten some honor at that time.

Eva Balogh

**************************************************
              *                                                *
              *                  PLEASE HELP                   *
              *                                                *
              *           MISSING PERSON IN BUDAPEST           *
              *                                                *
              **************************************************

An Englishman Chris Stangroom, about six foot high, 29 years old and with
A COMPLETELY BALD HEAD went missing from his hotel room in Budapest somewhere
between 26th July and 6th August. He was in holiday in Budapest and had been
talking about going to Rumania or Croatia for a few days, but it has just
been discovered that all his personal belongings are still in his hotel room.

Interpol has been informed, but maybe somebody in the INTERNET or FIDONET
community can help us with clues. You may have met Chris, he speaks only
English (and a bit of German) but is very friendly. He looks distinctive
because he is
young but completely bald (it is possible that he has very short hair by now).

If you met him, or even think you saw him in the streets please send us a
message; we need to know WHEN he disappeared. Please send e-mail to one of thes
e
addresses:

  
  

I don't receive any Hungarian newsgroups so you MUST send it as e-mail,
don't just REPLY to a posting.

If you receive this message, please show to everyone you can and re-post it to
other forums or groups that people living in Budapest might read. His family
and friends are extremely worried.

Thank you for your help.

Simon Birrell

Could you please forward me subscription information

Christopher Lazzo

<<<
In my opinion Mihai Caragiu is a clear example of that Romanian
intelectual sent in the civilized world to make propaganda
for Funar and his gang.
<snip>
>>>

Once again an opinion is _not_ a statement of fact, and _not_ an argument.
This being the case, it is clear that Anthony M. illustrates
once again the general state-of-mind here, talk-without-facts.
I don't know whether he _really_ wanted to strengthen my assumptions.
Supposing he _didn't_ , Anthony might find useful first to work hard on
improving
his I.Q., then come back and take again the `minority issues', hopefully in a
rational and civilized manner. Way to go, man! Don't forget the fun !!

>If you really want to serve a better cause then give solutions
>of how to stop rising (ultra)nationalism  of Roumanians.

>Otherwise a common sense logic says that the only way
>you can keep your position at Institut de Matematica of
>Academia Stiinta Roman is by rummaging in the dust of bygone
>times what divide Hungarians from Romanians.

P.S. Man, don't forget that Gigi Funar might
love you in secret, because... you and him
seem to have a pretty similar `sense of logic'. By using the same
sublime  `sense of logic' Funar spreads his crap, you know.


Mihai Caragiu

        ==================================
        | Dr. Mihai Caragiu                |
        | Institute of Mathematics         |
        | Romanian Academy of Sciences     |
        | e-mail:  |
         ==================================

Joe Pannon > tries again to convince :

>To do that credibly, one does not have to be as prominent today as S-W
>was in his time.
 Sure... An account at AOL.COM would be enough today.

Mihai Caragiu

In the course of his argumentation concerning the history of Transylvania
(Erdely) and the reliability of the historian, Seton-Watson, Mihai Caragiu
raises the following example of "truth":


>Is the truth of the statement "2+2=4"
>dependent of the inner disposition of the
>person who ennounces it ?

A pruported professor of mathematics should have, it seems to me, a
somewhat more sophisticated view of the meaning of "truth" and the criteria
by which it may be ascertained.  At a minimum, he should be able to
distinguish between analytical truth , such as his example, and synthetic
truth.  The validity of an analytical sentence, while it doesn't depend on
the disposition of the person who ennounces it, *does* depend on the
definition of the terms and *on nothing else*.  In contrast, the validity a
synthetic truth is determined when  the claim of a sentence is compared to
*experience*.  This little difference, complicates matters, because
experience can never be anything but subjective.  The last clause of the
previous sentence is another example of analytic truth.

Mihai Caragiu goes on to ask:

>In other words :
>are we back to Orwell ?


We are not back to Orwell, we are past him.   In fact, Orwell should have
been past himself too:  Kant had pointed out this stuff two centuries
before him, and the Vienna Circle and others (e.g.Popper, Weber, Mannheim)
had worked it out in considerable detail and approaching the problem from
many different assumptions, until know it is a commonplace  (though,
obviously, not everywhere, but in educated circles, at least).

As for the possibility of History as a science, many volumes were written
in the XIX c.  by Ranke and Dilthey and others, from which one can conclude
that, it is probably not possible to practice it as such, and we can say,
at best, the question  remains debateable and largely dependent by what
means by 'science'.  Unless all the peoples of the world get past linear
thought, we will all surely destroy ourselves and perhaps, life on our
planet.

All of you remind me of naughty children in the school yard, when the
teacher catches them doing their naughty deeds.  Everybody has a story and
nothing is anybody's own fault.

The present issue is, whether Hungarians on the territory of the Roumanian
Republic, have the right to exist where they have for the last 1,100 +
years as Hungarians or not.  While a knowledge of historical particulars
may be revelant, other issues need to be considered first.   Here are a few
that occur to me immediately: What constitutes ethnicity, what is a
Hungarian, a Roumanian, a Gypsy, a Jew?  What is a 'right' precisely and
how do we decide?  Does historical circumstance modify the meaning of any
of these terms?

I am grateful to Professor Caragiu for showing that Hungarians in the
nineteenth century acted like typical nineteenth century Europeans.   I
suspected as much, when I learned that Kossuth toured Dixie on the eve of
the American Civil War, giving speeches in favour of seccession.  The
trouble is that the Roumanian state seems to act like a nineteenth century
european state on the eve of the twenty-first century.  It is unfortunate
that the Hungarians are not much wiser.    One cannot demand Justice from
the environment.

Tibor Benke (Laborfalvi)
Vancouver, Canada

Lorant Czaran > writes:

>Well, I promise you, when I'll be back in Cluj, sometimes in this
>Century, I will start collecting the facts, only for showing you and for
>others how many they are...

I am asking for facts _not_ because I want to give you something
like a puzzle to solve, but because I believe this attitude is the only
possible _protocol_ for a decent discussion. Thus, not for
myself, but for the sake of a sane discussion, that is for
everybody's sake.

>I hope I will have the time and energy for this...

You seem to imply on a subliminal level that there are a lot
of facts, isn't it :-) :-) .... Jeez, I am beginning to have a
clue on a certain local structure of the Collective Unconscious.

>Have a good vacation, see you sometimes at home!
>Lorant.

You too, Lorant. I always feel confortable
discussing with you, anyway...

Mihai Caragiu


         ==================================
        | Dr. Mihai Caragiu                |
        | Institute of Mathematics         |
        | Romanian Academy of Sciences     |
        | e-mail:  |
         ==================================

> On the other hand Seton-Watson was {hear this:} _clearly_  a propagandist
> and he received his honorary degrees out of gratitude

Repeating mantras is _not_  science.
It is just an effort towards
internalizing the "required" picture
of the world. Here the yogi and the
commisar might meet (cf. Koestler).

But it seems a method pretty OK for the
local agents of influence...


:-)


Mihai Caragiu

Eva Balogh writes:

>Poor Macartney didn't fare so
>well in communist Hungary. It was only at the very end of the 80s, when he
>was very old that he was invited by the Hungarian Academy to give

When _exactly_ Macartney, C. A. , died ?
Just for an ignorant in historic matters
:-)



Mihai Caragiu

Eva S. Balogh ) wrote:
: I bet that imre bokor has not read anything by Seton-Watson, the Elder.
: Before he makes further pronouncements on the subject, I suggest that he gets
: a copy of Seton-Watson books. Then, he can decide how impartial Seton-Watson
: was as a historian. But it is the height of irresponsibility to make great
: pronouncements about the worth of a historian without reading a line of his
: writings, which I suspect is the case here.
:
: Eva Balogh

it is the epitomy of intellectual bankruptcy to condemn a contribution
which has been patently misunderstood on the basis of unsubstantiated
suspicion.

the point was --- and this time i'm typing it slowly so you can follow ----
that *if* --- let me repeat *I F* --- formal recognised certification
and professional activity is to be the criterion for judging someone
fit to contribute, or for judging someone's views and statements, *then*
seton-watson is *f o r m a l l y* at least as qualified as your good self,
in fact even more so. he certainly had a list of international awards
and prestigious academic appointments.

(note that it is irrelevant whether seton-watson or eva balogh
are  "biased" to the point above.)

a careful perusal of my posting would reveal that i was taking the
learned gentleman to whom i was responding by his own standards, for
i then asked him for his formal qualifications.

of course when it comes to matters "impartiality", the impression
you leave is not that of a disinterested observer and chronicler,
but of a partisan contributor. lest you misunderstand that last sentence,
it is *not* intended to be critical of you, but rather descriptive
of your postings that i have read.

let me remind you of what i wrote to you over a year ago.
*my* belief is that any posting should be debated and assessed
on the basis of its contents and not the name, predilections,
attitudes, background or biases of its contributor.

no matter how odious the name or voice of an idi amin may be to you,
when he claims that 2+2=4, that is either true or false ndependeently
of his person.

thus criticising a plumber for writing about philosophy is just
as imbecilic as criticising a philosopher for writing about plumbing.

d.a.

Steve Ungvari asks for recommendations for a Hungarian textbook.

Steve, I have quite a collection.  The best I've found so far is:

Szines Magyar Nyelvkonyv  I & II with a Munkafuzet (workbook)

by Erdos, Kozma, Prileszky & Uhrman
Tankonyvkiado, Budapest 1979 (and later dates)

These three volumes were put out by the Nemzetkozi Elokeszito Intezet.
The are only in Hungarian--use the "direct" or "target language"
approach--but if you have had any introduction to Hungarian, they are
excellent.

There is also an English version by the same authors:

Hungarian in Words and Pictures (A Textbook for Foreigners Magyar
Nyelvkonyv)

Tankonvyvkiado, Budapest, 1986

Hope this helps.  Good luck with your brush up work!

Tom

> <<<
> I really don't know who this Wingrove is, or what is his "free-lance" in
> Romania, but he definitely writes as "my friends" the members of the
> Vatra Romaneasca or Funar's party speak!!! Really, 90% of his statement
> is exactly what those guys are declaring for years already...
> >>>
> Be careful here, this might work 2-ways : even you will weaken
> the position of Wingrove (I suppose it is this what you want...)
> or you might strengthen the position of PUNR & co. by associating
> them with what some others believe to be a pretty sound opinion.
>
> :-)

8-) ,  8-) , 8-) , :-) , :-) , :-)  (amusing with and without glasses)...
THis (up and down) can be really dangerous, but that's it!

I see you are again asking for facts from Paul ,or others, speaking about
facts given by some historians...
Well, I promise you, when I'll be back in Cluj, sometimes in this
Century, I will start collecting the facts, only for showing you and for
others how many they are...I will collect them from the University, from
the Hungarian Student Union, from Local Governments called in justice for
writing the hungarian name of a village at the entrance, from companies
that were sistematically discriminated during their activity due to the
minoritar owner, from the Hungarian Bank innitiative that was never
accepted, because the approvals were not given and so on and so on...
I will prepare a looong list, so when we will meet I can hawe those
hardly needed FACTS!
I hope I will have the time and energy for this...
Have a good vacation, see you sometimes at home!
Lorant.

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Lorant Czaran            |       till july 1995:
                         |       Collegium Budapest
3400-Cluj, Romania       |       Szentharomsag u.2 sz.
                         |       1014-Budapest, Hungary
                         |       email: 
                         |       phone:+36-1-1561244; fax:+36-1-1759539
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------