E1va Balogh writes:
>I understand that the Hungarian army is in bad financial shape but don't you
>think that [not giving full ranks to priests] is not the most fortunate,
 politically
>speaking. Considering that the MSZP is the successor to the MSZMP whose
>relationship with the churches was abysmal, I would think that they want to
>avoid even the appearance of an anti-religious policies. But obviously, they
>are not as sensitive about certain matters as I think they should be. Eva

Let me contradict E1va on this point. The MSZP got into power on an openly
disestablishmentarian ticket. As in Poland (a much more religious country
than Hungary by any criterion) and in East Germany, after 1989 the people
were appalled by the extent to which the new right-wing governments started
to give the Church special deals. In Hungary it was not well received that
churches were the only ones actually getting significant property returned
to them, nor was the restrictive abortion law of Poland well receieved.
SZDSZ geared up for a major fight on abortion but even the MDF knew this was
"politically incorrect" (in the etymological sense of the expression, which
meant that you lose votes if you do it, just as "politically correct" used
to mean it brings in votes) so in the end abortion law remained fairly
liberal.

The election results make clear that people did NOT want the return of
kereszte1ny-nemzeti crap in any shape or forms.  I am not saying that MSZP
is doing wonderfully (they already made some serious errors) but now and
again they do the right thing, e.g. stopping Expo, and picking up serious
diplomatic discussions with Slovakia and Romania. GET THE CHURCH OUT OF MY
HAIR. Yes, this includes the rabbis. No Church, neither catholic nor
protestant nor anything else has any business in government-run segments, be
they civilian or military.  If the private sector wants to give them money,
well it's their money, and they can spend it on the Church of Buddha Resting
in the Lotus for all I care. But taxpayers have a perfect right to insist in
having a say in who gets a salary and a rank in the Army, and if they don't
want the troops to be blessed it's their business. So contrary to E1va I
think MSZP is quite sensitive to the matter, and does what I take to be the
politically "fortunate" thing.

Andra1s Kornai

>
>     British monarchy maintained by deception?  How so?  Are all those Brits
 who
> favor the monarchy's retention being deceived?  Too bad that most of the UK's
> population isn't as enlightened as you are...
>
>     Norb

We are being told what good value for money they are - well by the
tabloids anyway. Are they? I could do all that far cheaper...
(thinking about it, even some of the tabloids are feeling the
Brits' true notions now and are very disrespectful indeed.)
By the way, when was the last chance to vote against
the monarchy? And that other democratic and representative
institution - the Lords. Eva Durant

>
>     And you, as a resident of the United Kingdom, actually believe that
> Queen Elizabeth (or any other Western European monarch) _rules_?!
> Please...

There are a few largely unknown and undemocratic avenues open for
monarchs here if there is a turn of govrnment not for their liking, they
can change some rules in quiet, such as equal opportunities in their
workforce, sorry again, no data, but the good point is, that I
think this was on the telly. Sometimes late at night.(*)
Something  happened with a labour gobernment in Australia
not so long ago... Usig cute obscure laws can be handy. Eva Durant
((*)Martin was in bed, he's only 14, sorry, wont happen again him
poking into serious adult business such as kings and queens)

Sorry to jump in, just mention, that the House of Lords is stocked
with bishops.
Just for general info: When I lived in Hungary last (1983-87) most kids
were attending religious education (after school) to my amazement, also
in our village of 250 people, there were services for three different
denominations. The enormous church was in a bad state of repair, as
there were only 9 families of lutheran faith to keep it up. (It had a
sign - to my amusement I'm afraid - declaring thet it was danger to life.)
Eva Durant

I think Greg's revision is just fine and as Eva suggested; it should be
sent with instructions how to sign up. One wonders what their response
will be.

        Bob...az arpadhoni

Hi,

Charles Atherton wrote:
 > On Fri, 19 Aug 1994 19:33:07 -0600 Norbert Walter said:
 >>Imi Bokor wrote:
 >>>...roumania is also non-aligned...
 >>
 >>    What makes you say that?

 > This appears to be "Bash Bokor" week!

    Nothing in the above or in any of my other responses to Imi Bokor bashed
him...

 > He is, of course, capable of defending himself...

..so he doesn't need to defend himself, just his ideas. ;-)

 > ...he is extremely knowledgeable about the quality of
 > Australian wine and can send a heckova good list to
 > anyone interested.

    At this time I'm more into Seagram's strawberry flavored wine cooler than
anything else, but that's mainly because all the good stuff is too expensive (a
_small_ bottle of five year old Tokaji Aszu costs about $20). Is Australian any
cheaper?

    Norb

Dear fellow Hungary-listers:  I need an idiomatic translation for
          the  phrase  "nem  tala'ltak meghallgata'sra",  as  in  "Mr.  X's
          proposals to create  a catalog nem tala'ltak meghallgata'sra.  My
          first reaction was 'fell on  deaf ears.'  Any suggestions?    Ken
          at LC     )

On Fri, 19 Aug 1994, Norbert Walter wrote:

> Imi Bokor wrote:
> >...roumania is also non-aligned...
>
>     What makes you say that?
>
>     Norb

During the 1970's when Romania was competing with Yugoslavia for the
admoration of the Third World and the West, Romania did become a very
significant player of the World of non-aligned countries like Cuba,
Syria, Iraq, Ethiopia etc.


                                                        Attila

On Mon, 22 Aug 1994, bob hosh wrote:

>
>         Bob...az arpadhoni

Would not be that; "Bob...az Arpad Hazi?"

                                Attila "dessert instead of desert" Hun

On monday, 22 August 1994, Attila "dessert instead of deaset" Hun wrote:

        >>    Bob...az arpadhoni

        >Would not be that; "Bob...az Arpad Hazi?"

        No it would not. A number of people on the list know that I was born an
d
        grew up in Arpadhon, Louisiana, U.S.A.  That is why I sign it:

                Bob...az arpadhoni

On Sun, 21 Aug 1994 22:56:22 -0600 Norbert Walter said:
>
Is Austrailian any cheaper?

Well, depends on where you are.  Here, we can buy very good Australian
for around ten dollars a bottle on average.  Some as little as eight,
others around twelve or thirteen.

Charles

Andra1s Kornai writes:

> GET THE CHURCH OUT OF MY HAIR.

Get artists out of mine.  No public funding for the arts.  If it makes
a soldier's life a little more tolerable to find spiritual solace in art,
too bad.  Let them suffer.  After all, what do they do for me?

--GregAndra1s Kornai

DATE=8/22/94
TYPE=CORRESPONDENT REPORT
NUMBER=2-163955
TITLE= CENTRAL EUROPE MEET (L ONLY)
BYLINE= WAYNE COREY
DATELINE= VIENNA
CONTENT=
VOICED AT:

INTRO:  A NINE-NATION SUMMIT MEETING OF CENTRAL AND EASTERN
EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAS ENDED IN AUSTRIA WITH RENEWED CALLS FOR
EUROPEAN INTEGRATION.  V-O-A'S WAYNE COREY REPORTS FROM VIENNA.

TEXT:  THE HEADS OF STATE, WHO ATTENDED THE PLEASANT GATHERING IN
THE AUSTRIAN ALPINE RESORT OF ALPBACH, SOLVED NONE OF THE WORLD'S
MAJOR PROBLEMS.

BUT, THAT WAS  NOT  THEIR OBJECTIVE.  THEY FOCUSED ON REGIONAL
ISSUES, ESPECIALLY THE INTEGRATION OF FORMER EUROPEAN COMMUNIST
STATES INTO EUROPE AS A WHOLE.

AUSTRIAN PRESIDENT THOMAS KLESTILL SAID THE EUROPEAN UNION WILL
LOSE ITS LEGITIMACY IF IT INCLUDES ONLY WESTERN EUROPEAN
COUNTRIES DESPITE THE END OF THE COLD WAR.

AUSTRIA IS JOINING THE E-U IN JANUARY.  EASTERN EUROPEAN
COUNTRIES, ESPECIALLY POLAND, HUNGARY AND THE CZECH REPUBLIC, ARE
VERY EAGER TO JOIN IT, TOO.

BUT, THE MAN DUE TO BECOME THE NEW EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT,
JACQUES SANTER, SAID THE FORMER COMMUNIST COUNTRIES STILL HAVE TO
CARRY OUT ECONOMIC REFORMS.

IN AN INTERVIEW WITH RADIO AUSTRIA, MR. SANTER SAID EASTERN
EUROPEAN NATIONS HAVE A LOT OF COURAGE BUT HAVE MANY PROBLEMS TO
OVERCOME OVER THE NEXT FIVE YEARS OR SO.  HE ADDED, THOUGH, THAT
THE E-U HAS A MORAL OBLIGATION TO HELP THEM.

GERMAN PRESIDENT ROMAN HERZOG SAID GERMANY IS  NOT  TRYING TO
DOMINATE THE E-U.  HE SAID WHATEVER INFLUENCE GERMANY MAY HAVE IS
BALANCED BY FRENCH INFLUENCE.

THE HEADS OF STATE OF AUSTRIA, THE CZECH REPUBLIC, GERMANY,
HUNGARY, ITALY, LIECHTENSTEIN, SLOVAKIA, SLOVENIA AND SWITZERLAND
ATTENDED THE 50TH ALPBACH EUROPEAN FORUM.

                         // REST OPT //

THERE WERE MANY BILATERAL MEETINGS.  CZECH PRESIDENT VACLAV HAVEL
AND THE GERMAN PRESIDENT DISCUSSED THE PROPERTY RIGHTS OF ETHNIC
GERMANS WHO HAD TO LEAVE WHAT WAS THEN CZECHOSLOVAKIA AFTER WORLD
WAR TWO.

THE AUSTRIAN PRESIDENT AND HIS ITALIAN COUNTERPART, OSCAR LUIGI
SCALFAROS DISCUSSED A DISPUTE OVER AN AUSTRIAN TYROLEAN ACTIVIST,
KAROLA UNTERKIRCHER.  SHE WAS ARRESTED IN ITALY LAST WEEK ON
CHARGES OF BEING INVOLVED IN A TERRORIST BOMBING CAMPAIGN IN
NORTHERN ITALY IN THE 1980'S.

AUSTRIA WOULD LIKE ITALY TO DECLARE AN AMNESTY AND FREE HER.  BUT
PRESIDENT SCALFARO SAID THE CASE IS A ROUTINE POLICE MATTER AND
SHOULD  NOT  AFFECT AUSTRIAN/ITALIAN RELATIONS.  (SIGNED)

NEB/WC/MH/MMK

22-Aug-94 1:37 PM EDT (1737 UTC)
NNNN

Source: Voice of America



> ---------------------------------------------------------
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Please credit the Voice of America as the source in any subsequent
dissemination.

Marc--

I am pretty closely agnostic. (I would like if God existed, but I cannot be
certain of His existence. ) But that is a philosophical view, and not a
 religion.
I don't want to convert anyone to it. So why would I make it public,
except for your sake. On the otherhand, I did hear some atheist declaring
their "Faith" in TV. They wanted  to convert us, and maybe save us from God.


Sandor Lengyel

Marc Nasdor wrote:
> Don't forget that great statistic. The U.S. has 5% of the world's
> population and 70% of its lawyers!

    I knew there was a significant over population of lawyers here, but I never
knew it was this bad!

    Norb

Marc wrote:
 > What about in the USA? The church is not only cozy with the state, but
 > with the corporate sector...

    This is just not true.  How is the state or the "corporate sector" cozy
with "the church?"  Does the state or the "corporate sector" consult "the
church" in order to arrive at decisions?  Do the state or the "corporate
sector" administer religious affiliation tests?

 > ...and media as well...

    Again, I must ask how.  How is "the church" cozy with the media?

 > ...(in spite of recent assertions that the media ridicules/ignores
 > religion).

    In no way does the media ignore religion, but positive emphasis seems to be
placed on groups who are always trying to change things.

 > For example: when was the last time you heard anyone declare on TV
 > that they were an athiest or agnostic?

    I don't understand your logic here.  As far as my experiences go, I have
never seen the main stream TV media (networks & affiliates) employ a method of
news dispersion where the main tool was the documentation of one's beliefs. I'm
an ABC person...am I watching the wrong thing?  Should I switch to something
more intellectual like MTV?  TTYTT, now that I think about it, recently there
has been a splurge of people declaring their homosexuality on TV.  Which church
sponsors this?  The UUs?

 > I'm sure a healthy percentage of the population would fit into one of
 > these categories.

    My almanac only lists religious affiliation for US churches which have at
least 2 million members.  There are about 130 million Americans considering
themselves members of such churches.  I think there was a survey done recently
concerning religious affiliation--anybody have the results, or better data than
I could get?

 > Is that censorship, or only self-censorship?

    When was the last time you saw someone declaring his heterosexuality on TV,
or his religious affiliation for that matter?  Now _you_ tell me if
that's censorship, or only self-censorship?

    Norb

    P. S. I find your opinions somewhat strange since I live in the middle of
the Bible Belt (the home of fundamentalism) and attend a church affiliated
college, but am yet to see this pervasive influence that "the church" has
on the state, private business, and the media.

TO Greg and Jeliko--

Looks like a pretty good first draft of a letter to Simon Geza. Do you think
that (if this works) we'll be receiving our info in English or Hungarian? Will
we have a choice, or will we have to ask for volunteers to make translations
for the benefit of those of us whose Hungarian is a bit rusty, or nonexistent?

Also, I don't think one has to hammer in the fact that the discussion group
is biting and uncensored--one reference to that fact is enough, and there's
no need to apologize in advance.

I think, as well, that we should give him a bit more incentive (in case he
balks). I suggest stressing the value that we--representing a diversity of
professions--can be to Hungary in general, and Hungaro-American relations in
particular. I make this suggestion because I feel we should be as active as we
possibly can. It will undoubtedly pay off somewhere down the road.

Regards,
Marc Nasdor

You won't want to leave Budapest without spending the evening and most of the
night at the hottest club in the city: Tilos Az A. It's located on Mikszath
Kalman ter, sort of behind the National Museum. If you take the Muzeum utca
which runs along the right side of the museum, walk a couple of blocks to
a dead end, and take a right, you'll hit the square. Or ask a cab driver. You
can get reasonably priced drinks, good live music, and a fairly hip crowd.

Marc Nasdor

Andras--

To your comments on the place of the church in public affairs, I might add that
as a matter of practice, disestablishmentarianism also protects the church from
abuses of state power.

Marc Nasdor

To Eva Durant--

Just keep that copy of Louis Carroll by his bedside, so he'll know the
difference. :-)


Marc N.

Greg--

Easy to blame artists for the decline of civilization and the corruption of
American womanhood, eh?

I've yet to meet a publicly-funded artist who commited mass murder (like the
U.S. military on occasion [a publicly-funded institution]), or mass deception
(like the presidency [remember Iran-Contra?]).

It's kind of amusing to see certain rightists get hot under the collar at a
group of people with such little real influence in society.

--Marc