Greetings!

I run an international penpal and e-mailpal service in my spare time, called
Earth Friends.  :)

Earth Friends finds males and females penpals and e-mailpals in countries all
around the world.  :)

If you would like more information on joining, please send me a personal
e-mail at: 

Hope to hear back from lots of you soon.  :)

Peace For All! :)

Where we left off, Andras Kornai was defending his modified Ford thesis
("History Prior to 1975 is Bunk") by claiming that events prior to the
magic date of 1975 will do nothing "to help us determine how Hungary
should act vis a vis Romania and Slovakia".  I objected, pointing to the
many neuralgic points in relations vis a vis Romania and Slovakia, all
related to history, and to the way history (both real and mythical) has
been handed down across generations.  Andras responds as follows:

> What has the long waiting period for cars and trucks at the borders
> (a real neuralgic point) got to do with history? How about competition
> for low-skilled jobs in Hungary by ethnic Hungarians from abroad, how
> about the number of minority-language schools, visa requirements, etc.?
> These have nothing to do with history other than in the trivial sense
> that of course everything has a history.

What we have on our hands here is a chicken-and-egg problem.  Practical
agreements about mundane things (tax treaties, visas, portability of
educational degrees, property rights) are of course what we need more of.
Thousand times more important for people's daily lives than fights
about statues and street signs.  Free movement of ideas, people, and
capital would benefit both sides enormously.  Anyone can see that.
Anyone, that is, who starts from the premise that the other side is
here to stay, that arrangements have to be made for the long haul, that
there is such a thing as a win-win deal, that compromise is worthwhile
because the other side is not going away, and that not everything in
life is a zero-sum game.  Acting under such premises requires a modicum
of trust.  It is the trust that is lacking.  The reasons for this are
historical.  So far, we seem to agree.

There used to be a recurring debate between doves and hawks during the
cold war years on how to deal with the Soviet Union.  Intelligent doves
distrusted the Soviets just as much as the hawks did, but they advocated
different tactics.  One side said trust should come first, and agreements
afterwards.  The other side thought agreements should come first, and
expected trust to gradually arise through the mechanism of implementing
agreements, and the increased contacts arising from the agreements.  Trust,
in this scheme of things, is the desirable by-product of agreements.

Now let's take the example brought up by Andras: minority language schools.
Agreement on this issue is impossible because there are widespread fears
that minority language education is the thin edge of the wedge, a
diversion, a prelude to secession, part of a vast conspiracy to dismantle
the country, and whatnot.  The fears are absurd, but they are real.  The
people who say they fear these things are telling the truth.  They do not
want to conclude agreements if they fear they are about to be destroyed.
What they are afraid of is not physical destruction, but the destruction
of their identity.  We know where the fears come from.  They come from
history, part real and part mythical.  Right here on HUNGARY we have seen
megabytes and megabytes of outpourings about Apponyi, Andrassy, and their
dastardly deeds.  Seems like it happened only yesterday.

So enlightened self-interest just does not enter the picture.  No agreement
can be reached as long as either side thinks that agreement will lead to
its destruction.  Thus, it seems we are condemned to take the hawks'
position: work on trust first, and sign agreements later.

As for the uses of history in general, I am in agreement with Tibor Benke's
point, about identities and the role of narratives in creating them:

> Without an understanding of the past, it all looks senseless.  But with
> some understanding of History, one can at least understand that neither
> side is composed of insane or especially evil people, but that each side
> is behaving the way it is, because two divergent narratives of the past
> have been incorporated into their 'identities' in the course of historical
> processes which included the crashing together of a number of Empires
> (Byzantine, Holy Roman, Ottoman, Russian, Austrian, Soviet, NATO).

-----
Gabor Fencsik

If I am not mistaken, the first Christian Pope was St. Peter, not Saul=Paul.

I found Jan George Frajkor's two pieces on nationalism most interesting. One,
of course, could certainly argue, pro and con, about the validity of a view
which endows nations with personal characteristics. On the other hand,
unfortunately, we cannot simply wipe the slate clean. In Eastern European
nations perhaps put too much emphasis on history (very often distorted
history) but, unfortunately, George is right. We can't get rid of our history
(whatever the contents of that "history"). Is nationalism good or bad? I am
inclined toward the latter. On the other hand, I hear nothing else on the
Hungarian-language lists but the harmful effects of the "denationalization"
of the Hungarians. Lack of national pride is often brought up for all sorts
of current ills of the national psyche. They bring up examples from the
United States as well as from England as nationalistic nations, and there,
the argument goes, nationalism doesn't have a bad connotation. In Hungary,
they say, it does! Would it be better if the Hungarian government were more
of a "national" government. Would it help the national psyche? How would it
affect the relationship among the countries in the area? One thing is sure.
The West finds these East European squabblings incomprehensible, and the
Balkan situation, of course, tragic. It is time to do something else,
especially if these nations (Slovaks, Romanians, Hungarians) want to be part
of the European Union. But what and how?

Eva Balogh

Peter Hidas answered my question concerning Hungarian political developments
of the last few months:

>If Horn appoints the union leader as his deputy,
>the SZDSZ will leave the coalition and thus will become an alternative
>governing party in time. Such development could lead to a two-party system
>in Hungary unless the Right could form a united opposition -- which is an
>unlikely and
>most undesirable scenario.

This is, of course, an optimistic and, at least in my opinion, desirable
development. At present the opposition is far too small and can hardly be
called constructive. But, of course, the question is whether the SZDSZ could
extricate itself from the embrace of the MSZP and play a constructive role
among the opposition parties.

>At present the Hungarian electorate is angry and
>almost as a joke, support the Smallholders.

This is also an optimistic assessment. Let's hope that you are right: this is
just a joke.

Eva Balogh

>I would like to find out about the Balash family

First of all, the original name was most likely Bala'zs, meaning Valentine.
It is a fairly common name, so you ought to find out more about the locality
your family came from.

Eva Balogh

Where can I find comics, i.e. comic books (the local, non-imported
kind) in Budapest? I need the names, addresses of stores, etc.

Thanks,

DJK

--
Dietrich J. Kappe | Red Planet    http://www.redweb.com/
Red Planet, L.L.C.|         "Chess Space"              /chess
1-800-RED 0 WEB   |      "MS Access Products"          /cobre
Web Publishing    | E-mail:  

Hello,

My mother and I are traveling to Hungary in 2 weeks.  She is hoping to
find relatives.  Her father, Antol Feher, was born in a town near
Budapest called Lukafa and I believe his father's name was Joseph.  You
can write to me at  if you have any ideas.

I don't speak Magyar except for the epithets my grandmother used when
she dropped things on the floor by accident.  :)

Thanks,

Nella Feher White

>The next election is far away. If Horn appoints the union leader as his deputy
,
>the SZDSZ will leave the coalition and thus will become an alternative
>governing party in time. Such development could lead to a two-party system
>in Hungary

I hope not, otherwise I will vote for the MSZP, since any party is
preferable to the SZDSZ. :-)

Personally I fear the separation of the SzDSz. They might succeed in
not taking any responsibility for this goverment actions, just like
they washed their hands of the last goverment.
 Not responsible for their action, they might come out winners at the end.
(At least for one election.)

Sandor

PETROVICS OFNER recently wrote:

>I also feel a great  need to develop a code of ethical conduct, not
>just an informal etiquette.  I am revolted when someone attacks
>another person spewing such venom that it bleaches the colors from my
>screen.  Most vomiting is done privately --even if one is nauseous in
>public places.  Perhaps a simple code can be established that personal
>rancor be handled one-to-one, not through the entire network.

It is sobering to see such a comment from a newcomer to the net. No amount of
enthousiasm over this wonderful new medium can compensate for the disillusion
over its abuse by some.

I would gladly cooperate in a simple code of ethics. It should contain a set
of rebukes to typical violations which one could keep on file and insert into
replies as appropriate. These rebukes should be clear, concise and, most
importantly, live up to the very same ethical standards. Not impossible.

Best regards,          tiha

Robert Hetzron writes:
>
> If I am not mistaken, the first Christian Pope was St. Peter, not Saul=Paul.
>
    Sorry. I think you are right. St. Paul is rightly considered the
founding father of the organized church, but I believe St. Peter was
the first Bishop of Rome, an aoffice which later became the papacy. My mistake.

    Jan George Frajkor                      _!_
 School of Journalism, Carleton Univ.      --!--
 1125 Colonel By Drive                       |
 Ottawa, Ontario                            /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6                         /^\     /^\
       /   
  o: 613 788-7404   fax: 613 788-6690  h: 613 563-4534

Gabor Fencsik writes:
>
> Where we left off, Andras Kornai was defending his modified Ford thesis
> ("History Prior to 1975 is Bunk") by claiming that events prior to the
> magic date of 1975 will do nothing "to help us determine how Hungary
.
(text deleted)


> So enlightened self-interest just does not enter the picture.  No agreement
> can be reached as long as either side thinks that agreement will lead to
> its destruction.  Thus, it seems we are condemned to take the hawks'
> position: work on trust first, and sign agreements later.
>
.(text deleted),,,
> > processes which included the crashing together of a number of Empires
> > (Byzantine, Holy Roman, Ottoman, Russian, Austrian, Soviet, NATO).
>
> -----

   If I might suggest something -- many of the discussions of this
theme are lucid, interesting and constructive and are worth carrying
beyond the borders of the Hungarian-speaking world.  If you think of
it, and if the discussions are of more general interest, you might
post copies automatically to the Mideur-L list, which at the moment is
engaged in vicious discussions of whether Serbs are more atrocious
than Croats or Bosnians.  It might be a good idea to introduce some sanity.

    Jan George Frajkor                      _!_
 School of Journalism, Carleton Univ.      --!--
 1125 Colonel By Drive                       |
 Ottawa, Ontario                            /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6                         /^\     /^\
       /   
  o: 613 788-7404   fax: 613 788-6690  h: 613 563-4534

On Wed, 30 Aug 1995 16:46:49 EDT George Frajkor said:
>Robert Hetzron writes:
>>
>> If I am not mistaken, the first Christian Pope was St. Peter, not Saul=Paul.
>>
>    Sorry. I think you are right. St. Paul is rightly considered the
>founding father of the organized church, but I believe St. Peter was
>the first Bishop of Rome, an aoffice which later became the papacy. My mistake
.
--You are to say ten "Our Father's" and fifteen "Hail Mary's" my son.

Yours,

The Rt. Rev. Peter, Bishop of Rome

Hi.

Maybe it is true that the internet can help to let people feel that the world i
s
 a smaller
place and that there are no boundaries.  But trying to look at all as though
 they are the
same isn't going to work.  It is rather short sighted to believe that a New
 Zealander is the
same as a Hungarian.  They're both different.  I don't want the world to become
 a
homogenous mess, a melting pot.  New Zealand is trying to be that with the end
 result
being a country where people are constantly whinging without taking
 responsibility for
their actions.  People are to scared to acknowledge difference in this
 politically correct
country with the end result that everybody gets hurt and nobody wins.

As far as an ethical code of conduct, do we really need it?  It is already ther
e
 in an
informal form and trying to 'protect' people stops an issue being aired with
everybody instead getting hot under the collar.  A healthy discussion is fine,
legislation is a cop-out.  Nobody wins, far better to let people take
 responsibility.  The
world isn't always going to be a pleasant place.

viszla't
sza'lyman

     -  People use language not merely to conceal their thoughts,
        but to conceal the fact that they have no thoughts
        - KIERKEGAARD

Forwarded message:
>From :>  Wed Aug 30 13:50:46 1995
Message-Id: >
Date:         Wed, 30 Aug 1995 10:14:51 PDT
Reply-To: History of Technology Discussion >
Sender: History of Technology Discussion >
From: Barton C Hacker >
Subject:      Call for papers on Hungarian scientists
To: Multiple recipients of list HTECH-L >

        The International Committee for the History of Technology (ICOHTEC)
will hold its annual meeting in Budapest, 7-11 August 1996. My colleague
Sybil Francis and I are proposing a symposium on the so-called Martians, that
extraordinary cohort of expatriate Hungarian Jewish scientists who fled to the
United States before World War II. Tentatively entitled "The Hungarian
Connection: From the Manhattan Project to Star Wars," it would center on the
five who played such enormous roles in developing military-related technologies
during and after World War II: Theodore von Karman, Leo Szilard, Eugene Wigner,
John von Neumann, and Edward Teller. We hope to include a morning and an
afternoon session, roughly as follows:

                Morning: "The Martians and U.S. Miltiary Technology." Papers by
        Bart Hacker on the Martians, World War II, and the Cold War; by Mike
        Gorn on von Karman's career in America. Other participants to be
        determined.

                Afternoon: "Edward Teller and the Livermore Nuclear Weapons
        Laboratory." Paper by Sybil Francis on Teller's role in nuclear weapons
        development, primarily at the Livermore lab he helped to found. Other
        participants to be determined.

I would very much like to hear from anyone interested in participating in the
symposium, especially if you are working on these scientists, the Hungarian
scientific community before World War II, or the military-related technologies
to which the Martians contributed. Nominations for session chairs and
commentators are also welcome. Contact me at the following sites:

Bart Hacker, L-451
LLNL, P.O. Box 808
Livermore, CA 94551

Phone: + 510/422-7327
Fax: + 510/422-2302
Email: 

Information about the ICOHTEC meeting in general is available on the World Wide
Web: http://www.history.rochester.edu/icohtec/96sympos.edu

Or contact Morris A. Pierce
364 Rush Rhees Library
University of Rochester
Rochester, NY 14627

PUBLICATION FEATURES HUNGARIAN LIFE IN ADIRONDACK AREA ..

  The September/October 1995 issue of ADIRONDACK LIFE (ISSN 0001-8252;
Vol. XXVI, No. 6) contains a piece by Louis Mihalyi entitled "First-Class
Citizens", describing the life of Hungarian immigrants in Lewis County of
New York State's forested Adirondack region.
  Illustrated with a 4-page panoramic photo of several hundred persons
attending a 1924 picnic of the Hungarian-American Citizens League (a
mutual aid organization disbanded in 1962), the article traces the influx
of 150 newcomer families who abandoned the stifling mills and mines of
Pennsylavia to settle on small Upstate farms.
  Mihalyi, whose immigrant father became a real-estate agent and world-
renowned numismatist, recalls assimilation and the Americanization
efforts of the League (disbanded in 1962), but fondly underscores the
former grape-harvest festivals, Hungarian dances (with a Polish band!),
mock trials and mock marriages of a proud tradition.  He includes ethnic
recipes for PO"RKO"LT PAPRIKA'S (Beef Stew with Paprika), POGA'CSA
(Crackling Biscuits), and KIFLI (Stuffed Crescents).
  A resident of Glenfield NY, Louis Mihalyi is the author of NATURE,
NURTURE AND NOSTALGIA (North Country Books).

 DAN KIJ (pron. "Key"), Buffalo-Lackawanna NY USA
 PRODIGY POLISH CLUB

 Internet: