DBrutus ) wrote:

: I see
: little wrong with a compact ethnic group with fairly easily defined
: borders getting its wish of independance from an abusive colonial
: master. The problem comes in only when you have isolated enclaves
: like the Hungarian areas right smack in the middle of Romania or
: the Armenian enclave of Ngorno Karabakh.

	Actually, Nagorno Karabakh is seperated from Armenia proper by 
less than a mile; early in the Soviet period, it was attached to, and 
infact part of, Armenia.  But, the Turks protested, so Stalin carved it 
off, put it into Azerbaijan, and made a small portion of it part of 
Azerbaijan proper in order to keep it from reuniting with Armenia.  In 
other words, classical imperial divide and conquer tactics.

	Alexander

Wolfgang Rackebrandt ) wrote:

: >Although this freedom may imply a context sensitive grammar, I would 
: >rather think about some higher order, inter sentence grammar rules.

: I think it is a context sensitive order, but: What exactly do you mean by 
: 'inter sentence grammar rules'? 

Things like SVO can't be followed by OSV or OVS, but everything else 
is fine.   (this is just a theorethical example)

: If you say something in a sentence in a certain way, then the next 
: >sentence have to comply with it, so some restrictions are placed on 
: >that sentence based on the preceeding one.

: My word!

Not exactly.  In spite of the restrictions, when I was trying to write 
some short scripts with the various Hungarian versions of "the dog sees 
the man", there was always more than one choice that seemed to fit 
perfectly.   So within a certain limit, the word order if free.

In article >, Kim Niendorf >
 writes:
> I have a simple (and mundane?) question for anyone in this group who
> may be prepared to help me.  A friend last week returned from Budapest
> and presented me with a bottle of "Zwack".  Can anyone please tell me
> 1)Is this widely consumed in Hungary;
	In Budapest, someone told me it was the Hungarian National 
                   
> 3)What is the preferred method of drinking (i.e. straight, mixed,
>       diluted etc.)
      I tasted it at the urging of another member of our touring group.  Thus 
my conclusion become avoid it.  I guess you could get used to it, but there
are so many other things I rather take the time to get accustomed to first.
This is a foreign taste, it will remain so for me.
> 
> Any replies will be appreciated, either through this ng or e-mail.
> 
> Kim

Good Luck
A Farkas (a hungarian nae at that)

Andras Nagy ) wrote:
: powermac-7 ) wrote:
: : Miert nem magyarul irtok, elvegre magyarok vagytok renduletlenul!!!
: : udv.      Ago
:  Angol konyebben megy ma'r.

wha-doo-ya-mean?  ja!  eye-git-it-man!   see?

seeja!

gyeynos=jay-nosh=janos ... what's the diff?

In article >, 
 (ZEKE'zap) says:
>
>In article >  (mostapha 
Saout) writes:
>>From:  (mostapha Saout)
>>Subject: Mr. Francis O Akenami------>official Internet Bigot
>>Date: 30 Jun 1995 16:41:15 GMT
>
>>In > 
>>(Francis O Akenami) writes: 
>>>
>>>Fellow netters,
>>>
>>>Can anyone who attended the Morrocan party give a testimony of how it
>>>went. From my experience here,a  morrocan party is not safe for anyone
>>>to attend.
>>>
>>>All the morrocans in Helsinki do is to fight, drink and smoke (all
>>smokables).
>>>They never hesitate to use knives and bottles.
>>>
>>>Is the Washington experience different?
>>>
>>>Oruogho.
>>>
>>  
>
>I only have one question: WHY IS THIS THING HERE?
>
>Zz.

Good question indeed. Finland's immigration laws are such that there 
can only  be a handful of Moroccans living in Helsinki or anywhere else
in Finland. Mr Akenami's views must be based on hearsay or a few isolated
incidents, not  on a representative sample  of Moroccans living in Finland 
or  elsewhere.

JK

In article > koplyay,
 writes:
>A computerem egy "Macintosh Performa 630CD", version 7.5.

Két megoldás van.
1. A Key Caps desk accessoryval megnézed, hogy mik a magyar
betük billentyűkombinációi a gépeden, és ezeket használod egy
megfelelő betütípussal. (pl. courier)

2. Installálod a magyar Mac OS-t, teljesen vagy részben (betü-
típusokat, billentyűkiosztást)

Tamás

In article >  (J
anos Szamosfalvi) writes:
>Things like SVO can't be followed by OSV or OVS, but everything else 
>is fine.   (this is just a theorethical example)

What do you mean? Surely not that there cannot be a first sentence SVO
(subject, then verb, then object), followed by a second one OSV and a
third one OVS ?
-- Olivier

In article >, DBrutus > wrote:

> As for Romanians getting Transylvania, I see
>little wrong with a compact ethnic group with fairly easily defined
>borders getting its wish of independance from an abusive colonial
>master.

You can repeat that lie all you want, but that won't make it true.
It's an all too obvious attempt of selfjustification by squatters. 

Joe

In article >, Alexander Bossy > wrote:
>
>	I'm glad to see that you can still parot yourself so expertly.  

And you keep twisting what is say, true to your professional calling.
No wonder lawyers rank with the used car salesmen on the popularity
contest.  You prove it every day. 

>But, if Vojvodina wasn't given to either the Serbs or the  Croats, but to 
>them JOINTLY, and now they aren't living in one state any more, does that 
>mean that "Vojvodina belongs to neither the Serbs nor the Croats" and 
>should be returned to "its rightful owners", the Hungarians?  If not, why 
>are you telling us that Vojvodina historically belongs to Hungary?

Because I described how Voivodina came to belong to Yugoslavia.  But you
conveniently ignored my suggestion that a partition of it between Serbia
and Yugoslavia would be more in line with the original joint ownership
than Serbia grabbing it all.
>
>	Joe, you should avoid historical arguments.  You can't win them.  

No kiddin'!  Was that a direct quote from Liviu Yordache addressed to
you a couple months ago?  I see you memorized it real well.  Just keep
the ball on your side, OK? 

>In 1102, when King Koloman of Hungary, having consolidated Hungarian 
>control of Croatia, had himself crowned king of Croatia, he asserted the 
>triple claims of conquest, inheritence and election.  And, his "rights" 
>to Croatia came in just that order.

According to A. Bossy ...  

>	If you were talking history, then why did you put up the 
>claim that Vojvodina belongs to Hungary.  Use of the word "historically" 
>to define how it belongs to Hungary does not negate your claim that it 
>BELONGS TO HUNGARY.  If you went that it used to be part of Hungary, you 
>would be right, and I wouldn't have posted a response to your post.  But, 
>you didn't post that.

Just wanted to rub it in, Bossy!  But you knew it, didn't you?

Joe Pannon

On 12 Jul 1995  wrote:

> You can repeat that lie all you want, but that won't make it true.
> It's an all too obvious attempt of selfjustification by squatters. 
> Joe

We may as well resurect the Roman Empire and give them Panonia, for
that is all the Magyar is, tribes of reindeer hearders that 'settled'
where ever they could steal land from its rightfull owner. Some were
even squatters in eastern Transylvania.

m.c.

To:  / Cc: 

>a fenykepeidet felraktam a WWW serverunkre, igy most mar nyilvanosan
>elerhetok. Az URL:
>	http://www.idt.unit.no/~boros/erdely/ro.html

Aaah, koszonom szepen. Megprobaltam, jo vonalad van, Trondheim-tol Toulouse-ig
eleg gyorsan jonnek at a kepek. Azonkivul erdekes norveg fenykepeid vannak!
-- Udv: Olivier

Isabel Van Waes ) wrote:

In article >,  (C
LARY Olivier) writes:
|> To:  / Cc: 
.no
|> 
|> >a fenykepeidet felraktam a WWW serverunkre, igy most mar nyilvanosan
|> >elerhetok. Az URL:
|> >	http://www.idt.unit.no/~boros/erdely/ro.html
|> 
|> Aaah, koszonom szepen. Megprobaltam, jo vonalad van, Trondheim-tol Toulouse-
ig
|> eleg gyorsan jonnek at a kepek. Azonkivul erdekes norveg fenykepeid vannak!
|> -- Udv: Olivier

Ide (az Egyesult Allamokba) valamivel lassabban jonnek at de meg mindeg idoben.
Jo latni...

Apropo Peter, nem ismered veletlenul Horvath Zoliekat (Kolozsvarrol)? Valahol a
 
te "kornyekeden" kellene eljenek.

Marci

In article >, T. Kocsis > says:
>
>>Let's see if I can follow: "olasz" for the Franks is derived
>>from the Slavic "vlasi". But the Slavs used "vlasi" for the
>>Romanians
>
>No.

Yes :-)
Serbian and Croatian monastic deeds  used Vlasi for
Romanians. It is true that the term "vlach" was also applied
to Italians or to the 9th century latin-speakers living in
the monuntains of Dalamtia. In the early Middle Ages the Balkan
Vlachs were very often related to Italian colonists. One should note
that in the 6th century when the Slavs arrived in the Balkan area
the Romanian (or Vlach) language was the closest to Italian.

>modern West-Slavic languages:
>Czech: Vlachy
>Polish: Wlochy

Correct. But the issue was the name for the Franks not for the
Italians. Therefore your examples are irrelevant.

>
>>Please quote one Hungarian document that used
>>"the vlasi" for the Franks.
>
>Well, Hungarian documents somehow did not use Old-Slavic,
>I dunno why....:) :) :)


Maybe because up to the 19th century the official language of the
Hungarians was latin !? Thus, the whole argument that Magister P.
used Blachi for the Franks is based on fallacy for it takes for
granted, without attempting to prove it, that if the Slavic "
vlaxb" was applied to romance-speaking populations it was
also applied to the East Franks. Moreover, it is of no
relevance how the Magyars called the Franks. The author that
used "the Vlakhs" in the Russian chronicle is a Greek, a
Bulgarian or an East Slavic.

Let's see how were the Franks called in Old Slavonic.
A rather eloquent testimony  is provided in paragraph 5 of
Vita Methodii:

"And thus it happened that in those days Rastislav, prince
of Slovenes, and Sventopolk, sent [an embassy] from Morava
(iz Moravy) to the Emperor Michael saying: >>by God's will
we are all well and many Christian teachers have come to as
from the Italians, Greeks and Germans (IZ VLAKH I IZ GREKI
I IZ NIEMTSI) teaching us variously[...]"

It is clear in this case that the Vlakhs are Italians but
the name used for the East Franks is NIEMTSI, exactly like
in WWII Russian movies: "Liuba, davai pistalet! Niemtsi na
ulitsa!" :-)

Let's go back to our issue. Keep in mind that, despite
Jeliko's opinion, Rastislav and Sventoplok country was
in the border zone between Pannonia and Moesia.

The Presbyter Diocleas, one of the first to claim that
the Vlakhs (i.e., Romanians) are former Italians, (well,
he was not quite correct), recorded in his Regnum Sclavorum
that Sventopolk urged the Christians who had been living
in the mountains since the barbarian invasions to return to
their former cities and homes. Presbyter Diocleas also knew
that these people in hiding were "Latin". He also reported that
during a national assembly held in the "Field of Dalmata"
Sventopolk was crowned king.

Now, who were these Latin people, Christians, hiding in the
mountains of the ancient Illyricum? They were not Italians
but they were called Vlakhs. Definetly they were not Franks.

>
>Here some other villages , originaly established by Italian
>or French peasants, hence the name, 'olasz':

Yeah, yeah... but we are concerned neither with the Italians nor
with the French peasants but with the East Franks.

>Let see again the word 'Vlach'. The different Slavic langua-
>ges have no problem to begin a word with 'vl'  (like in
>Vladislav) however it is not the case in Hungarian where
>this combination is alien to the language. That's why it was
>changed to 'o' both in 'olah^ and 'olasz'.
>It is no problem in Hungarian to end a word with 'h' (doh, juh,
>r|h, etc)so the language can keep the ending sound of 'Vlach',
>however that's not true for Slavic languages. Some of them
>just don't have soft 'h' at all, like russian, only the hard one
>like in 'xopowo'.  Consequently,  the 'ch' sound changed to
>more appropiate one: vlaCH -> vlaSI.

This is why the woods once surrounding the city of Bucharest
were called Codrul Vlasiei: a bunch of East Franks, Italians,
and French settled that area early in the Middle Ages.
BTW, Bulgarian, also a Slavic language, ends words in h:
"vlah" is just an example. Maybe you should revise a bit the
linguistic information.

>
>So, again: 'olasz' was borrowed from Slavic, in which it was
>used and are used even now in the meaning of Italian.
>

I don't get it. Do you claim that the Romanians were not
called vlach or vlasi? Moreover, if the Poles and Czechs use
a somehow similar word for the Italians what that has to do
with how the old Slavs called the Franks?

Liviu Iordache

>From:  ()

>After that, the Second Vienna Arbitration giving half of that territory
>back [Transylvania] to Hungary was a partial justice.
....
>Such a plebiscite would surely have resulted in different borders 
>than what were drawn in the smoky rooms around Versailles, though 
>most of Transylvania would still have gone to Romania.

If there would have been an acceptable plebescite most of 
Transylvania would have gone to Romania according to Mr. Pannon.
Yet even though he admits that most of Transylvania should be
in Romania, restoring fully half the territory was only "a partial 
justice".  Am I alone in smelling something wrong here?

>on such principle, much of Florida should also belong to Cuba 
>because of the large concentration of Cuban refugees there.

This is nonsense since none of these Cubans would wish to put
themselves under Castro much as none of the many Italians in
America would wish to put themselves under Italian rule today.

Silly arguments.

In the tradition of Publius, Cato, and Centinel...
Decius Brutus

In article > Kim Niendorf,
 writes:
>I have a simple (and mundane?) question for anyone in this group who
>may be prepared to help me.  A friend last week returned from Budapest
>and presented me with a bottle of "Zwack". 

It is called Unikum (Unicum). Zwack is the name of the family who
owns the patent and the distillery.

>Can anyone please tell me
>1)Is this widely consumed in Hungary

Yes. It is my favourite, also.

>3)What is the preferred method of drinking
>(i.e. straight, mixed, diluted etc.)

Straight and cold but not by litre. It not good to get
drunk from it. Originaly it was such an aperitif which
had to be consumed after meal. Its  inventor was the
family doctor of the Habsburgs who formulated this
drink for the Kaiser who had indigestion.

1. It is good before or/and after meals. I prefer after,
before coffee.

2. Anytime. When I go to a cafe with friends i prefer
to drink an espresso and a half unicum maybe with an
orange juice but without mixing them together. I have
friend who pour together coffee and unicum but i con-
sider it barbarism. :-) :-)

Tamás

When I arrived in Budapest from Bucharest, I told my Hungarian
friends how many dogs I saw in Bucharest. There are tons of
stray dogs in Bucharest today who don't belong to anyone.
My Hungarian friend told me that there are many dogs on the
streets in Budapest. I didn't notice it, however. Could someone
varify this claim?

Jun

In article > T. Kocsis > writes
:
>From: T. Kocsis >
>Subject: Re: What is this Liquor?
>Date: 12 Jul 1995 15:12:27 GMT

>In article > Kim Niendorf,
 writes:
>>I have a simple (and mundane?) question for anyone in this group who
>>may be prepared to help me.  A friend last week returned from Budapest
>>and presented me with a bottle of "Zwack". 

>It is called Unikum (Unicum). Zwack is the name of the family who
>owns the patent and the distillery.

i was wondering what this "zwack" was in previous posts.  (never read the 
label on a bottle of unikum.)

my father always brings home one or two bottles each year that he visits 
budapest.  best "use" for this stuff?  "hair of the dog"....you know, hung 
over, have a shot of unikum, and feel "better".

personally i prefer hubertus.

greg (gergely)

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
"ED Beta is simply the best consumer videotape format available."  
       --Video Magazine (Nov.1992, p. 30)
"Manufacturers may have a point when they perceive the U.S. consumer 
    electronics market as unsophisticated." --VideoMaker (March 1993, p. 88)
I opted for Betamax, the world for VHS. I for Amiga, the world for IBM clones.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-