Dear Brad:

Sorry I can't help you with a Colorado reference. I was wondering,
however, If you might suggest a Hungarian Textbook so I can brush up on my
almost forgotten mother tongue?  Any help would be much appreciated.
Koszonom.

Steve Ungvari

Eva S. Balogh writes:
>
> I see that my writing on Seton-Watson caused quite an uproar in Bucharest.
> Naturally the Romanians, the Czechs, and the Slovaks consider him the
> greatest historian on the face of the earth because he took their side. On
> the other hand, Hungarians believe that C. A. Macartney, an equally famous
> British historians, was much more objective because Macartney was not
> anti-Hungarian and on balance was rather sympathetic to Hungary. But the very
> fact that Seton-Watson received so many honorary degrees from Prague, Zagreb,
> Belgrade, Bucharest and Cluj tells you something.

  MacCartney is also considered by Slovaks to be relatiavely
objective and if anything, on their side.
  the seton-watson honors are a chicken-egg question.  Is he given
degrees by the non-Hungarian faction because he is does not support
their position?  Or is he given the degrees because, if they had
remained under Hungarian hegeomony, they would not have been in a
position to give him degrees at all? I don't recall the Soviet Union
recommending Solzenitzyn for the Nobel Prize.
  I would not expect Hungary to recommend Seton-Watson for an honorary
degree.
   that doesn't mean he did not deserve it.


    Jan George Frajkor                      _!_
 School of Journalism, Carleton Univ.      --!--
 1125 Colonel By Drive                       |
 Ottawa, Ontario                            /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6                         /^\     /^\
       /   
  o: 613 788-7404   fax: 613 788-6690  h: 613 563-4534

Sandor Lengyel x2495 writes:

> In which manner? By treaty? Yes, you are right. By war? The winning side is
>  always successfull.
> (Unfortunatelly :-) )

       In this age of communication, that statement can be qualified.
The winning side is always successful for a certain period of time.

    Jan George Frajkor                      _!_
 School of Journalism, Carleton Univ.      --!--
 1125 Colonel By Drive                       |
 Ottawa, Ontario                            /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6                         /^\     /^\
       /   
  o: 613 788-7404   fax: 613 788-6690  h: 613 563-4534

Jim:

 _The Times Atlas of the World_ gives this location for Satoraljaujhely:
48.22 N and 21.39 E.  This is found in NE Hungary on the border of
Slovakia, about 120 miles NE of Budapest.

Magocsi's _Historical Atlas of East Central Europe_, Seattle/London:
University of Washington Press, 1993, lists this town with its Hungarian
name, and a Slovak name: Slovenske Nove Mesto, as well.  I think this
border town might have been split into two when Czechoslovakia took over
northern Hungary in 1919, hence the two names.  If you cannot find your
ancestors on the Hungarian side, you should check out the Slovak side as
well.

The American general encyclopedias do not mention Satoraljaujhely, but
the following do  and you can find these at a university library or in a
large public library:

1. _Encyclopedia Judaica_. Jerusalem: Keter Publihing Hous Ltd./
   New York: Macmillan Co., 1971.  "Satoraljaujhely" , vol 14, pp 906-7.

2. _The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia_. New York: KTAV Publishing House,
   1039-1943.  "Satoraljaujhely" vol.9, p. 381.

I do not remember visiting Satoraljaujhely, but I must have passed
through with my college class in 1955 when doing field work in vinyards
and visiting wineries of Tokaj-Hegyalja. If you do go there to search for
your ancestors you must also drink the wine (and the famous "Tokaji Aszu"
has no relation to the cheap Tokay wine sold in gallon jugs in the U.S.)

Three years ago a Professor Katz asked me to locate a town in nearby
Slovakia where his grandfather had been a wine merchant at the turn of
the century.  It may turn out that one of your ancestors was also either
a grape farmer or a wine merchant.  (If not on the Hungarian Guttfreund
side, how about the French Rothschild side?)  This was, and still is, a
popular profession of the inhabitants of the region. (Fighting for
freedom was another vocation.)

Stop at nearby Sarospatak, and visit the Rakoczi Castle.  Prince Ferenc
Rakoczi II. lead an uprising against the Austrians in the early 18th
century.  His Jewish supporters and soldiers settled in Satoraljaujhely
as mentioned in the two encyclopedias cited above.

Sarospatak is also a famous seat of learning: there is an old and famous
college, founded by the Calvinists.  The college has a school museum
containing educational masterials from the history of the college.  There
is also, in the same building, an exhibit of Calvinist ecclesiastical
art.  The historic main hall of the college library is a sight to behold
(if you are one of the lucky visitors to get in.)

Well, this may not have been helpful regarding your ancestors, but I hope
this will serve as a general background for your search.

Victor Marx


> =========================================================================
 (James G. Rothschild) wrote:
>I'm interested in information regarding my Hungarian ancestors.  If >someone
could direct me towards a more appropriate newsgroup, =
I'd be >appreciative.  My ancestors, Gutfreund (Goodfriend), left Hungary in
>1900 from a town in northern Hungary named Satoraljauj=
hely.
>
>Any information would be helpful.
>Thanks in advance.
>Jim

I bet that imre bokor has not read anything by Seton-Watson, the Elder.
Before he makes further pronouncements on the subject, I suggest that he gets
a copy of Seton-Watson books. Then, he can decide how impartial Seton-Watson
was as a historian. But it is the height of irresponsibility to make great
pronouncements about the worth of a historian without reading a line of his
writings, which I suspect is the case here.

Eva Balogh

In most respect I do agree with David Wingrove. Specially
in his assesment of the Romanian goverment.

In the language issue, he shows ignorance, which only
an english speaking person can. Unfortunately most
english speaking people only speak one language.
It seems to them impossible, that a romanian hungarian
finishing school in Romania, in a hungarian university
could speak two languages. Well, they can. The reason
for the hungarian language at the university, so that
the can keep active in their mother tongue.
  My cousin children are 5 and 9 years old. They
speak fluently german, hungarian and english.
  So far every romanian hungarian I met, spoke romanian.
(There could be a few exceptions.) It is unfortunate
that David W. does not read this newsgroup.

To Imre Bokor:

It is nice to see (hear) you again. But surprise me, and
just for once take our (the hungarian) side. We cannot
be wrong all the time.

.. of Relativity Theory after a couple of dozens of years !
Just by accident, you know... ;-) Let me restate the whole `argument',
folks: "2+2=4" is false because [:] it is _Seton-Watson_ who stated it.

Then the mere truth value of a statement depends on the feelings
towards `us' - the good old splendid barons or whoever wanted to join -
of the one stating it.

Good! Good! That's cool!! I will send a notice
with a proposal for an additional Orwell award :-) :-) :-)

Because Seton-Watson received honorary degrees from Prague, Zagreb,
Belgrade, Bucharest and Cluj (Ommiting Birmingham ? Ommitting that
he founded Slavonic Review ? Ommiting he presided over the society
of British Historians ?), that means he is the `bad guy'.

>I see that my writing on Seton-Watson caused quite an uproar in Bucharest.

Bucharest is certainly not interested in my bit.listserv.hungary funny
holidays...
All that you dropped here is irrelevant, because in no way consists a
refutation of S-W's affirmations. Keep trying; this approach might be useful to
a political commissar trying to get into the inner life/feelings
of his victims in order to `prove' their `reactionary' character,
but not to a scientist, if this you still pretend you are. The best idea
is to take my ten postings or so and trying _systematically_
to _refute the facts_ you find there. Good luck... If you want some
more I will provide them. Including the 1940-1944 period...


>P.S. His son, Hugh Seton-Watson, also a historian of Eastern Europe, wrote a
>book about his father and admitted that his father was wrong in getting
>involved with the squabbles of East-European nations.

Sorry to dissapoint you, but sometimes I believe this is indeed the case.
Hugh might think like this when he sees some bullies down here, trying to
weaken the
scientific accuracy of his father's writings by pointing out at this
involvement.

HAVE FUN!


Mihai Caragiu


         ==================================
        | Dr. Mihai Caragiu                |
        | Institute of Mathematics         |
        | Romanian Academy of Sciences     |
        | e-mail:  |
         ==================================

 writes:

>If there were injustices against the Rumanians by Hungarians, you
>cannot rightfully counter that with the current injustice.  As you know,
>there is strong support on both sides for a claim to Transylvania, and the
>positions taken by both sides cannot be changed by more oppression.

This `current injustice' is roughly an an exploded fiction
unless you provide _facts_.

I cannot attach a truth value to a statemet like this.
This is essentially the key for the `strength' of any propaganda.

You seem voluntarily to miss this, exactly like other colleagues of you.

One aim of my postings from Seton-Watson was to teach you a
lesson : provide _facts_, for which the truth can be decided.
Full stop.

Mihai Caragiu



         ==================================
        | Dr. Mihai Caragiu                |
        | Institute of Mathematics         |
        | Romanian Academy of Sciences     |
        | e-mail:  |
         ==================================

Lorant Czaran > says ....

<<<
I really don't know who this Wingrove is, or what is his "free-lance" in
Romania, but he definitely writes as "my friends" the members of the
Vatra Romaneasca or Funar's party speak!!! Really, 90% of his statement
is exactly what those guys are declaring for years already...
>>>

Be careful here, this might work 2-ways : even you will weaken
the position of Wingrove (I suppose it is this what you want...)
or you might strengthen the position of PUNR & co. by associating
them with what some others believe to be a pretty sound opinion.

:-)

Mihai Caragiu


         ==================================
        | Dr. Mihai Caragiu                |
        | Institute of Mathematics         |
        | Romanian Academy of Sciences     |
        | e-mail:  |
         ==================================

.. about the nostalgics for `the Splendor':



"Unpardonable are those uncrupulous persons who, for
 personal reasons, encourage in England Budapest's
 revisionist policy and the attempt to disrupt the
 established order, an attempt fostered by people who
 proved themselves to be intolerant, oppresssive and
 lawless in their dealings with all other nations"

                                   George Bernard Shaw

> =======================================================


Mihai Caragiu

        ==================================
        | Dr. Mihai Caragiu                |
        | Institute of Mathematics         |
        | Romanian Academy of Sciences     |
        | e-mail:  |
         ==================================

In my opinion Mihai Caragiu is a clear example of that Romanian
intelectual sent in the civilized world to make propaganda
for Funar and his gang.

He wants to "give a lesson to all hungarians" by... citing
FACTS from Seton-Watson. Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous!

Dear Mihai,

If you really want to serve a better cause then give solutions
of how to stop rising (ultra)nationalism  of Roumanians.

Otherwise a common sense logic says that the only way
you can keep your position at Institut de Matematica of
Academia Stiinta Roman is by rummaging in the dust of bygone
times what divide Hungarians from Romanians.

Otherwise best regards,

> ====================================================================
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=1A

I really don't know who this Wingrove is, or what is his "free-lance" in
Romania, but he definitely writes as "my friends" the members of the
Vatra Romaneasca or Funar's party speak!!! Really, 90% of his statement
is exactly what those guys are declaring for years already...there can be
two possibilities, if he is "paid" by the REomanian Government for PR
activities, then the position of the Government can be close to that of
the nationalists...if not, this guy clearly plays the game of those
"patriots", or he is completely "outside"...Otherwise, I cannot explain
his strange position towards a Law and some ideas that are really
obscure and created for being interpreted in a lot of ways...
Again, I must repeat: everybody has the right to decide what he or she
wants; if somebody wants to learn in his/her own language, higher
education too, it must be permitted! Later, maybe they will regret, and
then their childs will do not the same...or maybe they will not regret,
and they will be absorbed by this "small"  Hungarian community...Then
those minority schools, Universities are important and necessary...or not?
But all these are to be decided by those involved, and not by some
"rulers", or free-lancers that cannot find a better job...Let them
decide, without "usefull" advices about future translation based
communications...be reasonable, we all speak "some" Romanian, we don't
need translators...Maybe some of us are not speaking Romanian very well,
but I saw
a lot of Romanians who were sooooo bad speaking their native language,
so that I'm not anymore concerned!
Let everybody to decide about their future, good or bad, that would be
really a good choice and an intelligent move, if the nation is really
capable of doing this (I just saw your historical debates, and statements
about the similar capacities of Romanians with other nations, that's
maybe true, but demonstrate it, somehow! Do that intelligent move!!!)
Best regards for you all!
Lorant Czaran.

It is not easy to understand each other on minority issues...
One would expect European style solutions even on the eastern side
of the ex-iron-courtain but...
The major political forces of some countries are obsessed to follow
French examples of the past:

In the last century the French architect, Hausmann, successfully
changed ("systematized") the topological structure of the capital,
Paris...

Can you imagine these days the demolition of the ancient Roman and
baroque monuments and buildings of Rome just for opening a viable
boulevard crossing the center of Rome?
Exactly such things have been carried out in Bucharest by the
construction of the Palace of the Conducator, or the systematization
plan of villages in Roumania.

        Centuries ago France had successfully homogeneized her
population, successfully imposed the one and only one official
French language on her breton, provencial, etc. etc. speaking citizens...

Can you imagine these days the forceful imposition of
        - Italian language on Sud-Tyroler altoatesinos
                (Austrian Sud-Tyrol = Italian Alto Adige),
        - any of the official languages of Switzerland on the whole
                population of that country,
        - Finnish language on Swedish speaking citizens of Finnland,
        - Spanish language on Catalonians,
        etc. etc.?

Exactly such things have been/are planned and partly carried out
in Roumania, as we can remember
        - the selling out of emmigration permissions for German
speaking Saxons and non-Roumanian Jews of Transylvania or
        - the forceful settlement of learned people
after finishing higher education: that is
        - Hungarian speaking young teachers, engineers, medical
doctors sent to Roumanian speaking environment far from their
native region, and vice versa:
        - Roumanian speaking young intellighentsia sent to the land
of Seklers in Transylvania far from their own families, or
        - the mass settlement of Roumanian speaking workers in
Transylvanian towns in order to change the centuries old ethnic
structure of the population.

The slight difference is just in timing. In France such things
had been done before the time of worldwide cultural heritage
awareness and worldwide human rights awareness, while
Roumania has been making efforts to do these after.

        Just a question for those, who are better informed than me:
Is the rule still in vigour in Roumania (as it was a decade ago)
that the request of about 20 (or 25?) Hungarian speaking students
was necessary for opening a Hungarian speaking class, while
in the same time and same place 5 Roumanian speaking students
were sufficient to ask for opening a Roumanian speaking class?
Then in the hypothetical - but not rare - case of a Transylvanian
village, where the requests for education arrived from (say) 19 local
Hungarian (6 years old) children and 5 children of Roumanian families
(appointed by Bucharest into the local administration, police and
school), the class opened had to speak the language of the 21%
of pupils and ignore the language of the other 79%.

        The problem here is that the opportunity of referring to a
French - that is European - example on the surface is so attractive
for Roumania, that her politicians simply cannot imagine a Swiss or
South-Tyrolian or other type contemporary European solution.
        That is the surface, but looking into the depth of cultural
and political heritage, the idea of a decentralized structure of
local autonomies is simply horrifying for those still strong forces
in Bucharest (and Belgrade too...), whose political culture was
partly inherited, partly transmitted and imposed by moscovite
bolshevism, based upon centuries old overcentralized tzarist-like
political systems.

        Regards:                Gy. Kadar