I'm planning to tour Hungary in 1996 on my 1983 BMW R100.

Any suggestions are welcomed.

Although I'm of Hungarian descent (last name is Erdos), I know nothing
of my heritage except the sketchy family lore, I have no understanding
of Hungarian culture or language or if I can even service my BMW
motorcycle in Hungary.  I've visited Hungary's homepage but that's
rather cold in it's delivery of basic info.  I'm looking for a more
personal insight as to visiting this country.  I live in San Diego,
California and can't seem to find any cultural Hungarian resources
here.

Is this the proper place to post in looking for references and
information on a personal level?

Any recommendations can be emailed to me at .

Thanks!

This is the right place for such a posting, though you may find it helpful
if you have some more concrete questions. There are lots of good books on
seeing Hungary. I'd start there. Regarding servicing you motorcycle there,
I wouldn't bet on it. Although I haven't lived there since 1993, I don't
recall seeing many bikes there (especially BMW's). Good luck...

Subject: From PANON(ESCU) to Mark ANON(ESCU)

            \\\|||///
         .   =======
        / \ | O   O |
        \ /   \v_'/     Vlad the Glad
         #    _| |_     holding Romania's
        (#)  (     )    foreign policy toothpick
         #\// |* *| \\
         #\/ (  *  ) /
         #    =====
         #    (\ /)
         #    || ||
         #    || ||
         #    || ||
            ooo/ \ooo

Mark Cristian showing his Philipino maid what 
Romaniacs did with their 30 watt light bulbs
when the candles crashed from a heatsink failure.
 
                ---,_,----
               /    |     \
              /     *      \
             (      @@      )
             /   _/-||-\_   \
            /   '/  ||  \`   \
           /    /   ()   \    \
          /    /|        |\    \
          /   / |        | \   \
         /   / /  o    o  \'\   \
        /  '/  (          )  \  `\
        <_ ' `--`___'`___'--' ` _>
       /  '        / = \       `  \
   ___/  /        (  v  )       \  \___ 
   \ /  /        @| o o |@       \  \ /
    \ /           //////          \  /
  
Poontang dinner in ole Mindanao!!! OOOeeeeee!!!!

Oh but Mr Cristian
your tee tee
is so wee wee
I can't see see
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

 wrote:
: Subject: Re: no comment! question
: From: T. Kocsis, 
: Date: 11 Jul 1995 15:23:43 GMT
: In article > T. Kocsis,
:  writes:

pleez take this drivel elswhere!

Kocsis you are outa your league here... ibokor is K2... you be a kame or sand 
dune.... all of which iz not worth it...

peace --- beka!

janos

nem lopok mozdonyt, sem nem eszek foldet... jo csendor vagymok!

:)

In article >,  (Daniel vo
n Brighoff) writes:
> 	In my work with Hungarian books, I've come across references
> to the "Csodaszarvas" and the "Turul" several times.  [...]

I asked on the Hungarian list HIX/TIPP and I was told that the best source
is the manuscript called Be'csi Ke'pes Kro'nika, here are a few references.
-- Olivier


Author:        Kalti, Markus, 14th cent.
Uniform title: De gestis Hungarorum ab origine gentis ad a. 1330.
Title:         Chronica picta. Budapest : Helikon, c1991.
ISBN:          9632082184
Description:   74 [i.e. 148] p. : col. ill. ; 30 cm.
Notes:         Full color facsimile of 14th century Latin language ms.
                 preserved in the Hungarian National Library under the
                 signature Clmae 404.
               Cover title.
               Commentary in Hungarian, English, German, and Italian (4 p.)
                 tipped in.
Subjects:      Orszagos Szechenyi Konyvtar. Manuscript. Clmae 404.
               Manuscripts, Latin (Medieval and modern) -- Hungary -- Budapest
                 -- Facsimiles.
               Illumination of books and manuscripts, Hungarian.
               Illumination of books and manuscripts, Medieval -- Hungary.
               Hungary -- History -- 1000-1699.


Author:        Kalti, Markus, 14th cent.
Title:         Bilderchronik. Chronicon pictum. Chronica de gestis Hungarorum.
                 Wiener Bilderchronik. Hanau/Main, W. Dausien [1968]
Description:   2 v. illus., facsims. (part. col.) geneal. table, map. 34 cm.
Notes:         "Bis vor kurzem glaubte man Mark Kalti (Markus von Kalt) als den
                 Texautor der Bilderchronik ansprechen zu konnen.  Doch lassen
                 die neuesten Forschungen seine Autorschaft zwelfelhaft
                 erscheinen."
               Vol. 2: Hrsg. von Dezso Dercsenyi.  Aus dem Ungarischen
                 ubertragen von Ferenc Gottschlig.
               Vol. 2: includes bibliographical references.
               Contents:  Bd. 1. Chronicon pictum; Faksimiledruck nach dem
                 Original in der Szechenyl Nationalbibliothek, Budapest (Clmae
                 404)--Bd. 2. Studien zur Bilderchronik.  Chronica de gestis
                 Hungarorum, Chronik von den Taten der Ungarn (Ubersetzung aus
                 dem Lateninischen) Anhang, von F. Hervay.
Subjects:      Hungary -- History.
Other entries: Dercsenyi, Dezso.
               Chronicon pictum.
               Chronica de gestis Hungarorum.
               Wiener Bilderchronik.
               Germany Hanau (1968)


Author:        Kalti, Markus, 14th cent.
Uniform title: De gestis Hungarorum ab origine gentis ad a. 1330. English &
                 Latin.
Title:         The Hungarian illuminated chronicle: Chronica de gestis
                 Hungarorum. [Edited by Dezso Dercsenyi]. New York, Taplinger
                 Pub. Co. [1970, c1969]
ISBN:          0800840151
               800840151
Description:   200, 146 p. facsims., fold. geneal. table, fold. map. 34 cm.
Notes:         Includes "Studies on the illuminated chronicle," by D. Dercsenyi
                 and others, a translation by A. West of the Latin text "De
                 gestis Hungarorum ab origine gentis ad a. 1330," and a col.
                 facsim. reproduction of the original MS. (p. 1-146, 2d group)
                 which is MS. (Clmae 404) of the National Szechenyi Library,
                 Budapest.
               Includes bibliographical references.
Subjects:      Hungary -- History.
Other entries: Dercsenyi, Dezso, ed.
               Budapest. Orszagos Szechenyi Konyvtar. MSS. (Clmae 404)
               Chronica de gestis Hungarorum.


Author:        Kalti, Markus, 14th cent.
Title:         Die ungarische Bilderchronik = Chronica de gestis Hungarorum /
                 [Eingeleitet von Tibor Kardos ; Kunsthistorische Untersuchung
                 und Auswahl der Illustrationen von Ilona Berkovits ;
                 Anmerkungen zur Chronik von Laszlo Mezey]. 1. Aufl. Berlin :
                 Rutten & Loening, 1961.
Description:   319 p. : facsims (some col.) ; 24 cm.
Notes:         In German.
               Translation of De gestis Hungarorum ab origene gentis ad a.
                 1330.
               "Der deutschen Ubersetzung liegt die von Imre Szentpetery
                 besorgte textkritische Ausgabe (Scriptores rerum Hungaricarum
                 Tempore ducum regumque stirpis Arpodianae gestarum.  Budapest
                 1937. I. 239-505) zu Grunge."
Subjects:      Hungary -- History.
Other entries: Chronica de gestis Hungarorum.


Author:        Marcus de Kalt, fl. 1336-1358.
Title:         Die ungarische Bilderchronik : chronica de gestis Hungarorum. 
                 Budapest : Corvina Verlag, 1961.
Description:   319 p.

Dear reader


Following is a letter about the Bosnia issue to be sent to anybody who may
be interested in this regard, irrespective of his/her religion or
nationality. You can distribute it in any proper way to support innocent
and oppressed Bosnian people. The letter can be sent by your own signature
as well. 

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
A Plea to Your Human Dignity

It is, now, more than 3.5 years that the world is hearing horrific and
sorrowful news from the heart of Europe. A region which used to claim to
be civilized has put its civilization at risk of total nullification. The
most abominable and the worst human tragedy has occurred in the centre of
Europe, still the so-called superpowers are watching and even endorsing
it. What are the harvest and motives that the western governments acted so
decisive and swift when it came to Kuwait but are playing desperate and
crippled in the case of Bosnia. According to the foreign minister of
Bosnia the Serbs raped and murdered Civilians after taking the so-called
"safe area" of Srebrenica. He put the death toll as high as 5,000 to
10,000. "In one instance, 1,600 young boys and older men, who have been
considered by the same Serbs as being not at the age of to be as soldiers,
were executed in a soccer stadium after being taken prisoners," he added.

All this happened in an area where the UN actively disarmed Bosnian
defenders two years ago -- as Serbs had demanded in return for not
capturing the enclave. After confiscating the Bosnians' weapons, the UN
had pledged to protect Srebrenica as the first " safe haven" set up in
Bosnia. Let us learn the lessons of history. Let us not allow ourselves to
be the passive witnesses or accomplices to the unacceptable. "Rebel Serbs
long ago abandoned humanity as well as civilized behaviour, committing
what even dispassionate observers say is genocide and flouting peace
agreements," Elizabeth Neuffer wrote in the Boston Globe, the week before
Srebrenica fell. "But the Muslim-led Bosnian government has tried to play
by the rules. It has kept United Nations cease-fires. It has sat down at
the diplomatic bargaining table, again and again. In return, the country
has been rewarded -- with a UN peace-keeping mission unable to protect
itself, much less the Bosnians. With renewed shelling of Sarajevo, which
kills an average of 10 people per day, without a whimper of protest from
the West. With three years of war and no chance for peace..... We in the
West have failed them. We promised them the civilized world would make an
uncivilized conflict safer. We denied them the right to arms, and their
people are still dying as a result of that embargo." she wrote. 

"If you tie people's hands you are bound to defend them if you do not want
to be an accomplice in their murders," said Prime Minister of Bosnia Haris
Silajdzic. People who have been promised protection against Serbian
barbarism are being ignored at a time
when that barbaric aggression is the most dangerous to their very
existence. The leaders of the west in their last meeting in London
promised "substantial and decisive action" in response to any attack on
the Gorazde safe area. This was righteously interpreted by the Bosnian
government as a "Green light" to Serbs to continue their barbaric attacks
on the safe areas of Zepa, Bihac and Sarajevo. The result of such a
disgraceful decision, to date, has been the fall of Zepa, another
so-called "safe heaven". 

Pope John Paul II in a series of statements has called for "defensive and
proportionate" intervention in Bosnia in "a just war" to defend the
civilian population. He said that if Europe did not react to "acts of
barbarity and crimes against humanity," it risked falling into the "depths
of ignominy.". This, in fact, is a call for all human being, not just the
Europeans. The main issue is that this disgusting war is UNJUST. NO where
in the world it seems natural, logical and moral for a group of people to
be banned from defending themselves by restrictions, embargoes and
blockades. To date, the arms embargo of Bosnians has been the ONLY UN
resolution on the matter of the imposed war against them that has ever
implemented. The question raised by the foreign minister of Bosnia should
be thought deeply by all mankind: "The burden is upon those who have
imposed the arms embargo to show us that after 3.5 years of having failed
to stop this war, the aggression, the genocide, seen in places like
Srebrenica, why anyone could ever consider that arms embargo is legal?".

This is a plea to your human honour, dignity, and zeal. If you do NOT like
your respectful wife, lovely daughter, and/or honourable sister being
raped before their husbands/fathers/brothers then do NOT like this happen
to others either. If you feel sorrow for the line of teenage boys whose
throats were slit and bled to death then: 

Express your responsibility by raising your voice. Show your humanity. Let
fellow humans in Bosnia defend their lives, families, and their land. Ask
your government for lifting the immoral/illogical arms embargo from the
very victims of the most barbaric genocide of the century. 

Muslim Students Assoc. of Queensland - Islamic Society of St. Lucia
Indonesian / Iranian / Malaysian / Pakistan Students Assoc. -
Bangladesh Assoc., Brisbane

                                                                               
                                                                               
                                                                               
                                                                               
     #)ţ     #)ţ     #)ţ     
#)ţ     #)ţ     
#)
    
#)
Ś

        D        	
        
  Ţ    …         …  ˙˙  
   €
     €
     (  Times New
 Roman 	Symbol & Arial   
€
 b  b    € €b      e  "  ˆ   Đ  h
    Ž
řŹřeĄře    Q  q  
            NICK ANICK A

*** Greetings from the Hungarian-American List ***
      ***      http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/       ***
      ***       mailto:          ***


SLOVAK GOVERNMENT ON ROMA DEATH. The cabinet on 1 August approved a
statement expressing sorrow over the death the previous day of the
Romani youth who was beaten up and set on fire by skinheads (see OMRI
Daily Digest, 25 July 1995). The government condemned the "use of any
kind of violence, brutality, racism, [and] civil and ethnic hatred." It
also promised to implement protective measures to prevent similar
occurrences in the future, Pravda reported. Meanwhile, Maria
Bartosikova, parliamentary deputy for the ruling Movement for a
Democratic Slovakia (HZDS), told Sme on 2 August that the incident "was
not a racist attack" but simply a statement by "people who want to live
in peace, who oppose those who steal from them, beat them, damage
houses, and threaten their children." -- Sharon Fisher, OMRI, Inc.

SLOVAK NATIONALISTS ON PROTECTION OF REPUBLIC. Slovak National Party
(SNS) Chairman Jan Slota on 2 August said his party will request that
discussion on amending the criminal code to provide for protection of
the republic be scheduled for the September parliamentary session. On
plans to implement alternative education, Slota said "every normal
Slovak citizen and parent should want his child to master the state
language." He also noted that Education Minister and SNS member Eva
Slavkovska, who has often been attacked by the opposition, has the "full
trust and support of the SNS." With regard to the frequent allegations
that the SNS and ethnic Hungarian political parties cannot exist without
the other, Slota noted that the SNS would be "very pleased if there were
not a single Hungarian political party" in Slovakia. Slota also repeated
previous allegations that the opposition is preparing a "parliamentary
putsch" this fall. According to Slota, "dirty money" that will be used
to "buy" deputies from the ruling coalition arrived in Slovakia last
week. -- Sharon Fisher, OMRI, Inc.

ESTONIAN PARLIAMENT RATIFIES EU ASSOCIATION AGREEMENT. The Estonian
parliament unanimously ratified the association agreement with the
European Union at an extraordinary session on 1 August, BNS reported.
Estonia, together with Latvia and Lithuania, signed the agreement on 12
June. The EU last year signed similar association agreements with
Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, and Romania.
Estonia's agreement will go into effect after the parliaments of the EU
member countries ratify it. -- Saulius Girnius, OMRI, Inc.

POLAND MAY BUY U.S. JET FIGHTERS. Polish Defense Minister Zbigniew
Okonski on 1 August announced that Poland was considering buying at
least 100 U.S. F-16 fighters, CET reported the next day. U.S. Secretary
of the Air Force Sheila Widnall, who was in Warsaw from 31 July-2
August, said the U.S. government has decided to let Polish experts see
classified details of the F-16 and will send a team to Poland within 30
days. Okonski said that Poland needed to replace its force of 220 aging
MiG-21 fighters within three years and that it was considering French,
Swedish, and Russian aircraft as well as the F-16s. He said the four
countries will present their candidate aircraft at the air force base in
Deblin, central Poland, later this month. -- Doug Clarke, OMRI, Inc.

U.S. HOUSE VOTES TO LIFT ARMS EMBARGO. The House of Representatives
voted 298-128 on 1 August to end the embargo against the Bosnian
government. Like the measure passed in the Senate, it will only come
into effect after considerable delay and does not provide for any arms
sales or training. The VOA said that President Bill Clinton feels he can
get enough votes to enforce his expected veto, but the bills passed both
houses with strong bipartisan support. Elsewhere, NATO officials agreed
on a plan to protect the remaining UN-declared Bosnian "safe areas" even
if the Serbs only mass troops there and even if the Krajina Serbs attack
from Croatian territory. But it remains to be seen whether NATO will
want to face Serbian air defense systems and have pilots shot down. A
European diplomat told the International Herald Tribune on 2 August that
the problem is further complicated by the British, French, and Russian
willingness to accept a Serbian project to redraw the map of Bosnia,
which Washington and Bonn oppose. -- Patrick Moore, OMRI, Inc.

NIMITZ IN MACEDONIA. U.S. special envoy Matthew Nimitz, mediating in the
Greek-Macedonian dispute, ended a two-day visit to Macedonia on 1
August, Nova Makedonija reported the following day. Nimitz met with
Macedonian President Kiro Gligorov and Foreign Minister Stevo
Crvenkovski. Talks focused on the prospects for direct Greek-Macedonian
talks and for normalization of relations. The Macedonian side stressed
its willingness to participate in such talks, but only on an equal
footing. -- Stefan Krause, OMRI, Inc.
  
[As of 12:00 CET]
[As of 1200 CET]
Compiled by Jan Cleave
Compiled by Victor Gomez

This material was reprinted with permission of the Open Media 
Research Institute, a Prague-based nonprofit organization.

       Copyright (C) 1995 Open Media Research Institute, Inc.
                    All rights reserved.

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
This message has been generated automatically. In case of errors, please,
          contact the administrator of the Hungarian-American List 
                 (mailto:) 

         Thank you for reading the Hungarian-American List !        
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

In article > Liviu Iordache,
 writes:
>>There is only two problem: The Cilley family was not Hungarian
>>but Styrian and they were newcomers in Hungary similarly as
>>Hunyady. The rise of the family - more exactly Hermann Cilley
>>- begun under Sigismund.

>I don't see any problem. The real issue here is the trustworthiness
>of Cilli's testimony. You suggest that Cilli, driven by envy and
>hate, lied about Hunyadi's ethnicity and, therefore, Hunyadi
>was not born in Wallachia. Correct?

I should have changed the thread's title. I only wanted to deal
with the "ethnical discrimination" issue here, on which i don't
agree with you.

1. The possible younger age of Hunyady doesn't exclude that he
was born in Wallachia. I don't have problem with this detail if
you could prove it. 

2. I still don't think Cilley was trustworthy simply because he
was a lifelong  enemy of the Hunyady family. After all, he was
who started to spread the juicy story of the Sigismund legend
as well.

>Wasn't Cilli an "immigrant" also?

No. His father Hermann was a poor noble from Austria who made
a big  career in Sigismund's court . His son, Ulrik, who we talk of,
was the head of an already rich and powerful family.

>The king was not Hungarian
>and many other nobles were non-Hungarians. The social uplift
>of Cillis, Hunyadis, and many others proves that someone's
>ethnical origin was not important.

Then why did you come out with this sensationalistic "ethni-
cal discrimination"  statement if even you don't believe in its
plausibility ?

>Therefore, I don't see
>any reason to dismiss Cilli's unambiguous testimony that,
>as he put it, "IT IS KNOWN [meaning that it was not a secret
>known only by the Cillis] that this Janos Hunyadi was
>born in Wallachia..."

Well, on other occasions he heavily suggested that Hunyadi
was Sigismund's bastard....now which is the truth then ?

>So one should put in the balance Hunyadi's own testimony,
>that in 1448 he was over 60 years old, 

I yet have to see this "own testimony". 

>against Thurcozi's statement,
>that Hunyadi was still a relatively young man when
>he died, and Piccolomini's claim that Hunyadi was younger than
>Capistrano (born in 1386)

>I cannot gues what "relatively young" meant for Thurcozi,
>maybe just that Hunyadi was still in good shape, but I know that
>1448-60=1388 and that 1388>1386, meaning that there is no
>contradiction between Piccolomini's and Hunyadi's statements.

Hunyadi died in 1456 aug. 11 in the military camp of Zimony
because of pest. According to you then he was almost 70 years
old, and still active solder. It is unlikely, very hard to believe.
Even the age i suggest (60) is very high. Don't forget we are in
the middle age.

Tamas