Tibor wrote:

>   Somebody wrote about Italy. The Italians who were living in Canada voted.

So did the South Africans.

Joe

Galambos wrote:

> Somebody posted statistics about the number of executions in different
> political eras in Hungary. What Gosztonyi and anybody using his statistics is
> doing is manipulating with numbers in a most disgusting manner, for they are
> ignoring the number of years over which these executions occurred.

Well, well, let's not forget that most of those executions under Kadar
were carried out within five years or so, right after '56.  We might
also remember that they were during peace time; hardly comparable with
executions during war time when life tends to become "cheaper", so to
speak.

BTW, Gosztony is hardly the type of historian who could be accused with
erring on the side suggested.

Joe

Our friend Gabor wrote:
>As a properly conditioned American, I am quite ready to feel guilt and
>remorse over all of these things, except for the hash.  The French did
>not need those uncouth Americans to introduce them to the stuff.  Hash
>existed in abundance in France for quite a while.  Perhaps you might
>want to reread any reasonable biography of Baudelaire, for a start.
>In fact, as a denizen of Rue Daguerre you may be familiar with Daguerre
>and his strange doings involving silver nitrate fumes... all in the
>name of progress, of course.

You do have a point, and yes I knew about Baudelaire, and Daguerre (Even though
I missed the irony), Verlaine, ect...  Perhaps you are right that this has
nothing to do with american pop culture, however it was never a part of french
pop culture until the sixties when the French youth started to immitate their
comrades in America.  When offered the stuff once, I declined and the reply to
my declining of the offer was, "But I thought all you Americans smoked.."
Perhaps I am wrong, but I cant help but think that this is all part of American
Pop culture.  All this being said, I think that fastfood is without a doubt an
imported evil (since it destroys the social structure based around eating).
..marc

Someone had asked for business contacts in Eastern Europe.   A truly
excellent
source of information is the EASTERN EUROPE BUSINESS DATABASE CD-ROM which
contains information on almost every company in Eastern Europe as well as
thousands of pages of text related to doing business to or from Eastern
Europe.    The CD is distributed by the U.S. Dept of Commerce, NTIS,
5285 Port Royal Road, Springfield, VA   22161  (703) 487-4650.  Their fax
is (703) 321-8547.   The price is $395.00, however, for orders from countries
other then USA, Mexico or Canada, the price is $790.00.    The same/similar
CD is also available from the American Directory Corp., G.P.O. Box-7426,
New York, N.Y.   10116   Fax: 718-596-4852 also for $395.00.   The price
seems to be the same for all countries from them.   We use the CD all the
time to find out who produces what in Eastern Europe.

>
> >Do other European states allow non-resident citizens to vote?
>

        Slovakia does not.

HT

>
> Marc wrote:
>
> >Paul, you mentioned the Gypsie culture (or the Gypsie counterculture perhaps
)
> >as a threat to Hungary's Eurropean culture.  If I understood you correctly.
> >However, when I walked through the streets of Budapest or walk home from the
> >Paris Metro, I can't help but notice that the european culture is being
> >threatened by a much larger and more powerful outside force than that of
> >the Gypsies (who are not really outsiders anyway).  I live next to this old
> >pedestrian street in Paris called Rue Daguerre.  It is full of outdoor
+ markets
> >and sprinkled with a few cafes and bakeries.  A very beautiful traditional
> >European atmosphere.  However two years ago this image has been destroyed.
> >Now when I walk down the street I am facing the large golden arches of a
> >McDonalds restaurant in front of me.  At the end of the street it lies,an
> >unavoidable eyesore.  As far as I am concerned this street has lost much of
> >its charm.  It is no longer European, nor French.  The same is happening all
> >over Europe, especially in Budapest.  As far as I am concerned American pop
> >culture is the biggest threat to the uniquness of European traditions.  In
> >fact I would even say that most of what we know as traditional European
> >culture has already disappeared.  Most of the people in France my age listen
> >to American pop music, watch Arnold Swarzanegger films, eat at McDo, listen
> >to Rap, smoke hash, and so on..  There is hardly any distinction between a
> >young frenchman and a young american.  We have become homogenized, the same
> >is starting to happen to Hungary.  Welcome to McCulture!...marc
>
> I AGREE!!!!   OH BOY, DO I AGREE!!!!  I cannot tell you how happy I am that
> Euro Disney park is doing poorly.  During my February trip to Morway and
> Germany, I was grossed-out when I saw at least 4 McDonald's places in Oslo,
> and several American fast-food places in Munich (Domino's, McDonald's, local
> hamburger shops, Van Halen and rap music on people's radios, etc).
>
> When I was in grad school, I met several french students, who would get
> together 3-4 times a month for a family-style, regular sit-down dinner.
> They said they needed this since the dinner gathering was how French families
> kept close.  One woman even said, even when her sister and her would spend
> most of the meal kicking each other, and teasing each other, they at least
> interacted each day, and that was important.  I think in the US we are
> deprived by not keeping that tradition.  Now we see the same thing happen
> in Europe, and spreading to Asia, and elsewhere - how tragic, cultures
> entered around corporate images, and maximum efficiency.
>
> Paul
>

A love and appreciation of the best of European culture and beauty didn't
stop the tragic events of the holocaust.

Maybe, just maybe, young people *like* McDonalds & American rap music.

Julie

Adam Galambos writes:

> Hungarians
> have been looking for their identity ever since, and haven't found it.
> Hungarian roots are nothing but a poor imitation of Western culture...
> and everything from the West is cherished as
> something that came straight from Heaven.

And your suggested method for improvement is...?


--Greg

Julie wrote:
>Maybe, just maybe, young people *like* McDonalds & American rap music.

Not just "maybe", they do *like* garbage!  That is the whole problem.  We
are witnessing the demise of European Culture.  We are witnessing the expansion
of the Idiot Culture...marc
The young people in China that we saw being run over by tanks a few years

Marc writes:

> >Maybe, just maybe, young people *like* McDonalds & American rap music.
>
> Not just "maybe", they do *like* garbage!  That is the whole problem.

Here's my broken record imitation again:

What do you propose be done about this?

--Greg

> > >Maybe, just maybe, young people *like* McDonalds & American rap music.
> >
> > Not just "maybe", they do *like* garbage!  That is the whole problem.
>
> Here's my broken record imitation again:
>
> What do you propose be done about this?
>
> --Greg

Well it is obvious now that democracy simply does not work.  You can not give
the people power since the people are made up mostly of idiots.  Therefore I
recommend restoring the Austrian-Hungarian Empire to its former glory, and
returning the monarchy to France.

Yes, of course I am just joshing with you.  The truth is I really do not think
that there is very much we can do besides improving education.  But that has
its limits of course....So far now all we can do is sit back and cry...marc
could make them conform to the architecture of the cities they move into.  We

NEWS RELEASE FROM:

Energy & Environmental Research Center
University of North Dakota
Grand Forks, North Dakota, USA

CONTACT:

Patrick Miller, EERC communications coordinator, at
 (Internet); 73364,463 (CompuServe);
701-777-5113 (Business Phone); 701-772-6518 (Home Phone);
701-777-5181 (Fax)

OCTOBER 13, 1994 - FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Energy and Environmental Conference Focuses On East Central Europe
> ------------------------------------------------------------------

GRAND FORKS, N.D. -- Next month, 400 business people, government
officials and researchers from around the world are expected to gather in the
Czech Republic to learn more about pollution prevention, environmental
cleanup and clean energy generation technologies for East Central Europe.

  The University of North Dakota's Energy & Environmental Research
Center (EERC) is cosponsoring the second international conference on
Energy and Environment: Transitions in East Central Europe in Prague,
Czech Republic, Nov. 1-5.  First held in April 1992, the conference is
organized and cosponsored by the EERC and the Power Research Institute
of Prague (EGU Praha).

  "This conference provides government officials with an opportunity to
receive detailed information on well-established ways of solving energy and
environmental problems," says Vice Minister Vladimir Novotny, Ministry of
Environment, Czech Republic.  "It also offers the possibility to consult
with experienced experts and to make contacts for additional cooperation."

  Dr. Laszlo Barta of EGI Contracting/Engineering Co. Ltd., Budapest,
Hungary, says, "The conference is an excellent opportunity to learn more
about how energy and environmental problems are solved in the United
States and how this knowledge can be applied in East Central Europe."

  Another key aspect of the conference will be discussions about
overcoming the social and economic barriers to developing partnerships
between industry, government and research organizations in the U.S. and
East Central Europe.  Such partnerships provide American companies with
opportunities to export their technologies while helping to solve energy
and environmental problems in East Central Europe.

  Robert Gentile, former Assistant Secretary for Fossil Energy in the U.S.
Department of Energy (DOE) and now the managing partner of KFx Atlantic
Partners, Washington, D.C., and president of Ceska Palivova, Prague, says,
"The conference in Prague can serve as a catalyst to show American
companies the opportunities that exist in East Central Europe and the
investment climate in the Czech Republic."

  Gentile uses the Czech Republic as an example of what can be
accomplished under the right conditions.  "The private sector is
flourishing in the Czech Republic.  Clearly private sector partnerships
are what's causing this to happen," he says.  "It's no longer the
government relationship that existed in the past.  It's all strictly in
the private sector now."

  The Resource Conservation Company (RCC), Bellevue, Wash., a U.S.
company that participated in the 1992 Prague conference, will return for the
November conference.  Earlier this year, RCC was awarded a two-year, $40
million wastewater treatment contract in the Czech Republic, due in part to
the exposure the company received at the 1992 meeting.  "It's evident that
the right people are coming to this conference," says Rodi Ludlum, RCC's
marketing manager.

  John Byam, JB International, Morgantown, W. Va., says, "This conference
will provide a forum to present new options and technologies to East
Central European technical community decision makers, which can assist
them in making the proper decisions for upgrading and modernizing local
power production facilities."

  Barta says that foreign investment in East Central Europe is key.  "Without
it, none of these countries can solve their mammoth energy and
environmental problems because they are still struggling with transforming
their political structures and economics.  The Prague conference will
identify experts and companies who can form mutually beneficial
partnerships to bring new, high-efficiency and environmentally friendly
technologies into this region of Europe."

  People from 17 countries have already registered to attend the Prague
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States, the United Kingdom, Sweden, Belgium, the Netherlands, Poland,
Germany, the Slovak Republic, Bulgaria, Hungary, Austria, Ukraine, Russia,
Yugoslavia and Canada.  Topics include energy generation systems, the
economical operation of energy systems, air pollution controls, power
system retrofitting and repowering, financing options, regulatory issues,
energy resource options, waste utilization and disposal, and long-range
environmental issues.

  The conference will be preceded by two workshops in Prague Oct. 31
through Nov. 1 sponsored by the DOE's Morgantown (W. Va.) Energy
Technology Center and organized by the EERC.  They will cover
technology for producing and using clean-burning briquetted fuels from
European brown coal and opportunities for low-cost clean coal technologies
in East Central Europe.

  Financial sponsors of the conference are DOE and the U.S. Environmental
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Information Technologies, Ltd. Denver, Colo.; KFx Atlantic Partners; North
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subsidiary of Cincinnati Oil and Gas, Coeur d'Alene, Idaho.

  The EERC is one of UND's major sources of research funding, attracting
more than $20 million in fiscal year 1994 in federal, state and private
contracts.  The Center, which employs 260 people, is an international leader
in energy and environmental research, conducting projects for clients from
throughout the United States and the world.

                            - 30 -

For More Information Contact:

Dr. Gerald Groenewold, EERC Director, at 701-777-5131; Vice Minister
Vladimir Novotny, Ministry of Environment, Czech Republic, 42-2-
67122739; Dr. Laszlo Barta, EGI Contracting/Engineering Co. Ltd.,
Budapest, Hungary, at 36-1-201-8182; Robert Gentile, KFx Atlantic Partners,
Washington, D.C., at 703-524-0500; Rodi Ludlum, Resources Conservation
Company, Bellevue, Wash., at 206-828-2400; John Byam, JB International,
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NOTE:  If you do not wish to receive news releases via E-mail from the
EERC, please phone, fax or E-mail Patrick Miller, EERC communications
coordinator, at one of the numbers or addresses listed above.

Galambos Adam wrote:

>>What Gosztonyi and anybody using his statistics is
>>doing is manipulating with numbers in a most disgusting manner, for they are
>>ignoring the number of years over which these executions occurred.

But are the numbers are right?

>>If I
>>remember right, Kadar was in power for a longer period of time than any of th
e
>>others mentioned - and so it is quite natural that more executions would occu
r
>>during the Kadar era than some preceding it.

You are right. I agree, Kadar was better than Szalasi. But Kadar was still a
murderer.

>>> and Horthy were murderers.

Considering the number of years Horthy was in power, and the time
Hungary was a place of refuge for the jewish people at the begining of the war,
if Horthy was a murderer, he was an angel compared with Kadar. He was a bad
statesman, however looking at our recent history, I am not sure that any
of the recent ones are that much better.

In looking for "capitalism with a human face," I suggest a strong
dose of *caveat emptor*, i.e., let the buyer beware!

--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

On Thu, 13 Oct 1994  wrote:

> Adam Galambos writes:
>
> > Hungarians
> > have been looking for their identity ever since, and haven't found it.
> > Hungarian roots are nothing but a poor imitation of Western culture...
> > and everything from the West is cherished as
> > something that came straight from Heaven.
>
> And your suggested method for improvement is...?
>
>
> --Greg
>

Hello,
I'm currently researching on nuclear proliferation and nuclear smuggling
from the former Soviet Union.
I read in *The Washington Post* (March 7, 1992):
"Hungary's main newspaper, Nepszabadsag, speculated that Red Mercury might
be a detonating substance for plutonium bombs and reported that several
recent murders in Vienna might be linked to its illegal trafficking."
I'd greatly appreciate if anyone could help me to find this article and
direct me toward additional Hungarian, East European and Austrian sources.
Sincerely,
F. Orlandi
************************
Fernando Orlandi
Via Tonelli, 13
I-38056 Levico Terme (Tn)
Italy
Phone: +39-461-701238
Fax: +39-461-702137
Email: 

[no signature] wrote:

>Adam Galambos wrote:
>>>What Gosztonyi and anybody using his statistics is
>>>doing is manipulating with numbers in a most disgusting manner, for they are
>>>ignoring the number of years over which these executions occurred.

>But are the numbers are right?

As Andras Kornai pointed out, yes and no.  Under Kadar, most executions were
preceded by a pretend judicial process, while most victims under the preceding
regimes were killed by vigilantes, paramilitary organizations, the police,
the gendarmes, the army, without any formal process.  Consider just the 3-4000
Serbian civilians killed in Novi Sad by Hungarian Army units: they are not
included in these statistics.  As Supreme Warlord, Horthy was responsible for
his army and their actions just as Kadar was for the actions of his party
militia, the 'padded coats'.

So, Adam Galambos is perfectly justified in his assessment.  Despite Joe
Pannon's word to the effect that Gosztonyi is a non-partisan historian, unless
the statistics quoted are seriously out of context, this is clearly history
from a 'class perspective' in the best Marxist traditions.

>You are right. I agree, Kadar was better than Szalasi. But Kadar was still a
>murderer.

This is beyond doubt.  However, he has deeds to his credit too.

>Considering the number of years Horthy was in power,

I do not understand the relevance of this, could you please elaborate.

>and the time
>Hungary was a place of refuge for the jewish people at the begining of the war
,

It is ironic, isn't it, that while providing refuge to Jews from other
countries, Horthy's government was sending Hungarian Jews to serve in Labour
Service units.  While there were commanders who were humane, the system did not
discourage others who, in a number of cases too numerous to be a single
aberration, did everything to place their Jewish charges in harm's way or simpl
y
murdered them.  Again, the Supreme Warlord was responsible for these actions,
and these statistics appear to be missing from Gosztonyi's figures.

>if Horthy was a murderer, he was an angel compared with Kadar.

Obviously, we have rather different definitions of angels.  I would class both
as fallible humans with good and bad to their names.

>He was a bad
>statesman, however looking at our recent history, I am not sure that any
>of the recent ones are that much better.

I am.  The Nemeth government of 1989 achieved more in a single year than most
of its predecessors in decades.  True, its external environment was less
restricting, but they made most of their potential.  This is in sharp contrast
especially with Horthy.

George Antony

Subject: Re: Gypsies
From: paul, 
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 18:42:11 EDT
In article > paul,
 writes:
>Rebecca Tracy wrote:
>
>>One point of contention, Paul. There is no part of "traditional Gypsy
>>culture" that says it is okay to steal. I will grant that there are Roma
>>theives, just as there are Magyar theives and Irish theives and Jewish
>>theives. But it isn't a cultural tradition. Those that teach it to their
>>children are despised by those of us who live honorable lives.  Stealing
>>violates Romaniya (traditional Romani culture) as well. And it only
serves
>>to stain the reputation of the majority of Roma who are good people.^C
>
>        Accepted - I sit corrected, but we do agree that there is at
least
>        a considerable faction of Roma who do teach stealing is ok to
>        their kids, and that this cultural trait should be denounced.
>
>        The point I was making was that, yes there are Magyar theives and
>        Irish theives and Jewish theives, but this is not taught as part
of
>        culture to be aceepted,

yes it is. it's called the "honfoglalas" in hungary. it's the history of
how the united states were settled and how they came to number fifty. it
is called the history of industrialisation. it is *petty* theft which is
condemned. grand theft is called "business acumen". expropriation is
called
"settlement" or "civilisation".

>        whereas among some Roma it is.

this is called "bullshit" in the vernacular. "the gypsies" no more teach
theft than do "the english", "the hungarians" or "the italians". that
there
are thieves amongst gyspies, taught to be so by their parents or peers,
is saying no more than that there are thieves amongst hungarians taught
to be so by their parents. you do not have to read much to know about the
underworld in hungary, or the teams of pickpockets in the london of
dickens times or about the camorra, mafia and cos nostra in italy and
the united states. or are these all gypries too?


d.a.