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probaa

I had a request to find English speaking environment for a
Hungarian girl to work as a home help, she has the medium level
state exam (in Engish) she hopes to get the high level one
and to go to ELTE (law).
She lives in the summer with her granma (Berti neni):
                        Pilipar Ferencne
                        Somogydorocske
                        Keleti u.53.
                        7284 HUNGARY
Permanent address: Somogyi Adrienn
                   7632 Pecs
                   Nagy Imre ut 134.
                   HUNGARY

Sorry, I wrote Boston instead of Bonn but I am still curious whether the
whole diplomatic corps had to resign in the other East European countries at
the time of the political change in 1990. According to the NYT article none
of the East German diplomats received a job in the Foreign Ministry because
they were considered to be politically suspect. Lately I have read articles
in Hungarian papers, demanding the resignation of ambassadors appointed by
the former
government. So, I am assuming that the ambassadors of the Nemeth government
had been recalled after the Antall government took power. Eva Balogh

>So, I am assuming that the ambassadors of the Nemeth government
>had been recalled after the Antall government took power. Eva Balogh

I don't think so, at least not among most diplomatic personnel (maybe
ambassador-level).  My aunt (a schoolteacher at a school where the younger
kids from the Hungarian Embassy to the U.S. went) said that there was
surprisingly little turnover at the embassy.

bill

Eva Durant wrote:

>Hungary 1956 by Bill Lomax (1976) is a third point of view. Eva Durant

A third point of view? That presupposes that there are two others. Would you
be kind enough to elaborate on the other two points of view as uttered on
this list. Eva Balogh

On Tue, 12 Jul 1994, Eva Durant wrote:

> probaa


Sikerult!

Jeliko writes, among many other worthy points about the EEOC, OSHA
and FDR's attempts to pack the Supreme Court:

> I think Hungary was always in short supply of liberals.  Based
> on the limited amount I have read about him, Bibo maybe close
> to one.  Nagy Imre was not.

I think the first and second propositions are false and the third is
true (true by definition, since Imre Nagy was a Communist true-believer,
a stance that is incompatible with being a liberal -- except in the
febrile mind of Csurka and his fans.)

Hungary used to have an ample supply of liberals in the second half of
the 19th century.  In fact, Hungarian politics was dominated by liberals
("Szabadelvu Part") from the 1860's to the eve of WWI.  Note that this
is the classical European meaning of the world liberal, which is really
the only one relevant to discussions of Hungary.  In this sense of the
term, being liberal meant pro-capitalist, pro-Adam Smith, pro-free-trade,
for integration into supra-national institutions (such as the Habsburg
Monarchy), against protectionism, against nationalism, against national
autarky, for universal education, for religious tolerance, for
enlightenment, for separation of church and state.  Aside from a rather
paternalistic streak, the Hungarian flavor of late 19th century
liberalism was pretty much like the standard European variety.

I would agree that, after WWI, Hungarian liberals became an endangered
species.  On the other hand, the two self-described liberal parties,
between themselves, collected 27% of the vote just a few weeks ago.
I am not sure the views of these voters would in every case qualify as
liberal, in the classical European or the modern American sense.  But
they did vote liberal, for whatever reason.

As for Bibo, he has never been a liberal and has never described himself
as one.  In the economic sense, he was a socialist; in a political sense,
he was a democrat.  But a liberal he was not.  A devastating  critique
of the aforementioned liberals is in fact the centerpiece of his political
writings.  He saw nothing good at all in their crowning achievement and
claim to fame: the Compromise of 1867, which he considered a sham and
the root of all evil.  Of course, this opinion was shared by many people
across the political spectrum, but Bibo is far more vehement and
uncompromising on this point than most.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

This compels me to bring another snippet from the more interesting parts
of Bibo's "The Jewish Question in Hungary After 1944 "  -       Zoli

 Identifying Communism with a Jewish pursuit of power is an old cliche of
both European conservatism and several European Fascist trends. In
Hungary, it was especially after the 1919 Hungarian Soviet Republic that
this identification became a commonplace of counterrevolutionary public
life, to the degree that the country's middle classes generally assumed
that the leadership and general goals of Communism simply represent
Jewish interests and aims, and that a Jewish connection is sufficient for
one to be on the road toward Communism. The degree of confusion is
illustrated by a remark I recently heard: "What is the Communists'
quarrel with X. Y.; after all, he has always been a liberal!" We can
understand such curious nonsense only if we realize that in the usage of
Hungarian middle classes the word "liberal" implied a friend of Jews, while
"Communist" meant someone who was part of the Jewish power structure. The
nationalization of large industrial firms, which did not spare Jewish
ones, was perhaps the first move to shake these general assumptions. In a
broader perspective, the best illustration for the incorrectness of these
assumptions is the development of the Jews' situation in Russia, which
clearly shows that the development of Communism -- without being at first
"pro-Jewish" and later turning "anti-Jewish" -- is governed by forces
entirely different from its relationship with Jews.
 To be sure, the strata of Jewish intellectuals and craftsmen came
relatively easily and quickly to Communism a fact easily explained by the
different nature of their reiationship to feudalism and capitalism, as
well as by their greater proclivity for social criticism. After all, to
identify with socialism especially its Marxist version, requires one to
follow the inner logic of capitalism to its final conclusion. Individuals
imbued with the spirit of feudalism and serfdom have difficulty even
understanding Marxism. The capitalism and socialism of Jews *is*
connected at this point, and not because of some secret alliance between
Jewish capitalists and Jewish socialists. This connection does not
involve masses; rather, it results in the separation of an elite group
from the basically bourgeois-democratic Jewish society, with this group
finding ltself immersed in the melting and assimilating entity of the
workers' movement, especially the revolutionary workers' movement.

Does anyone know of any bookdealers in Hungary who carry books
about the Kuvasz dog breed?  Very little has been written about
them in the US, and I would like to learn more since I own
one.  If you are aware of any books on the Kuvasz, please let
me know, and I can try to have a US book dealer find them for
me as well.  Any help or suggestions will be appreciated.  I
have also posted this request in soc.culture.magyar.


Melissa Paul

Dear Melissa,

   You may try Puski-Corvin in New York City for information about
books on the Kuvasz. The address is:

                  Puski-Corvin
                  217 E.  83rd Street
                  New York, NY 10028
                  Phone.: 212, 879-8893
                  Fax   : 212, 734-3848

   Even if the store has nothing on the Kuvasz, it may give you info.
as to where to look.

   I assume there are books on the Kuvasz in Hungarian. Whether there
are any in English, this is another question.

   Good hunting,

                  and good luck,

                                   Amos

*  *                   Amos,..."not the famous"                 *  *
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**             "Cherish yesterday, Dream of tomorrow,             **
**                     and Live for today!"                       **
********************************************************************
**                || Rutgers - The State University of New Jersey **
**                ||        Library of Science and Medicine       **
** AMOS J. DANUBE ||   P.O.Box 1029, Piscataway, NJ 08855-1029    **
**                ||     T.:908, 445-2896  Fax: 908, 445-3208     **
**                ||      E-mail:       **
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On Tue, 12 Jul 1994  wrote:

> Jeliko writes, among many other worthy points about the EEOC, OSHA
> and FDR's attempts to pack the Supreme Court:
>
> > I think Hungary was always in short supply of liberals.  Based
> > on the limited amount I have read about him, Bibo maybe close
> > to one.  Nagy Imre was not.
>
> I think the first and second propositions are false and the third is
> true (true by definition, since Imre Nagy was a Communist true-believer,
> a stance that is incompatible with being a liberal -- except in the
>
> -----
> Gabor Fencsik

I have to agree with Gabor. Hungary in the past was know for its large
number of liberals. The events between 1919 and 1989
- THE YEARS OF THE OPPRESSION -
that robbed Hungary from most of its liberals.


                                                        Attila

What is a kuvasz?  Is it particular to Magyarorszag?

Paul

For personal curiosity - where do you find facts like, TIME quotes from
1940, or the population of the US, GB, Germany and their GNP??

Paul
d

Dear Paul,
> For personal curiosity - where do you find facts like, TIME quotes from
> 1940, or the population of the US, GB, Germany and their GNP??
 Well, the library is always a good place to start :-) - the population
and GNP I took from the History of World War II (ed. AJP Taylor,
Octopus Books). TIME sells their almanac on CD, available in your
neighborhood discount software store (their support # 202-244-4770).
I'm sure you can find it on paper as well, if prefer traditional ways...

-- Zoli

news

Joe-

It's true that I receive my information about Csurka from such second-hand
sources as my wife (a Hungarian) and several of my closest Hungarian friends,
but I've got to trust somebody, don't I? :-)

As for my Soproni friends, yeah, it's all relative :-  *Do you seriously
believe that Hungarians in Hungary are incapable of holding honest differences
of opinion?* I respect their opinion, but does that mean I shouldn't engage
them in debate, especially when they spent at least 1 hour trashing Soros who,
while no god, doesn't deserve the xenophobic and racist attacks of a Csurka.

BTW, how many Hungarians voted for Csurka's party, was it 1.5%, hmmm.
Joe, Csurka is history; I hear even his wife bailed out on him.   --Marc

Marc writes:
> Jeliko-

> It's good to see you're a man of some principles.
Thanks. I will saw off the horns tonight, well maybe leave one, just for
prestige.

>A few "corrections" though:
> (1) Americans are some of the lowest taxed humans on earth. I do not
Mayhap there is reason for it being the best place to live in. Although
I thank God everyday, that we do not get all the government we pay for.

think that
>     the welfare life is much of an existence at all, but I would
Different folks, different strokes!

venture to
>     guess that many participate in the large underground economy, and
Very many of them do. A fellow recently offered to put fence posts in on
my farm if I paid cash. It turned out he was on a 100% disability for
"hurting his back".
so
>     probably live better than I.
Better is such a nebulous thing. But several I know lives very happily.

> BTW,I'm 37 and am putting my 40-something
>     wife through graduate school and 3.5-year-old son through
You are lucky, when my wife was 40-something she already knew
everything. :-)

preschool. We
>     have no health insurance, and what's available for freelancers is
substan-
>     dard at the price we can afford. I could use a little gov't help!
Why do you think the government can do anything for anybody at a lower
cost than non-government agencies. If you are freelancing, see if you
can incorporate (you may be already), then join the  local Chamber of
Commerce, at least here the C of C also runs insurance pools for
members. Similar programs are also run by some trade and technical
organizations or societies, such as the American Society of Mechanical
Engineers, etc. Many areas have various special trade and industry
associations who pool their memberships personnel and get a good group
rate. All of these are obtainable at a much lower cost then the one with
the bureaucratic overhead of the government. You may also want to talk
to some of your customers, to see if you could geet into their insurance
program with you reimbursing the cost to the customer. Please try other
options before you ask the government to do something for you. In many
areas the HMOs are required to offer insurance to individuals at a
reasonable cost, but enrollment is only for a two week period each year.
Call up your state insurance commission to get further info. Please,
please, leave the feds to a last resort, in the long run they are the
most expensive.
Ask not what the government can do for you, ask what you can do by
yourself  or maybe with your fellow citizens.

> (2) Attention all '56-ers! Now hear this! While they may well have
done you a
>     disservice by voting in the MSzP, I can assure you that most
Hungarians in
>     1994 Hungary couldn't give a shit. They're too busy standing
around the
>     Vo"ro"smarty te'r being seen yakking on their cellular phones.
-Marc
Gee. I was told that the living standard really dropped in the past few
years. Are they calling in to their unemployment office to see what is
available?  Or are they calling their stockbrokers?:-)

Regards,Jeliko.

Eva-

I expect the Hungarians will have more sense than to get into that kind of a
mess. As far as I can discern, Hungarian citizens have little interest in
performing ritual lustration, although I can understand why the Czechs went
on with it (and sympathize with them as well).

-Marc

Re Fekete's comment about the socialist/capitalist Jewish connection:

One should not forget to point out that after WWII, many Jews were naturally
drawn toward the Communist party not only out of a desire for revenge, but
as a haven of safety from what must have been perceived as a Hungarian
populace with an anti-Jewish nature.

With all the talk of Hungarian anti-Semitism, I personally believe most of it
is a lot of baloney, particularly in the last decade. Unfortunately, the
charge gets employed by those who seem to feel that fear-mongering will some-
how advance their desire of dividing the Hungarian people. It's 1994, and the
citizens of Hungary have had enough of it. Evidently, those who disagree
didn't bother to vote in the last election.
                                             Regards, Marc

Jeliko-

A follow-up about insurance. Personally, I don't care where I get health
insurance for my family. I just don't want to pay more than $1,000 per person
to get it, and I don't think anybody else should. Before our son was born at
the end of 1990, our insurance was $2500. After the birth, with the addition of
one child and prices jacked more than 200%, it went up to $8400. Now that's
obscene! And that was *private* insurance.

-Marc

Jeliko-

Thanks for the insurance advice. I wish it were so easy here in New York City.
Even the local HMO that will accept independents charges at least $5200/yr for
a family. Mutual of Omaha offered a major medical for $3400 but it had a $5000
deductable (yes, that's $5000). Unfortunately, association plans are not much
better. But I will look into an incorporation or a DBA (doing business as).

Regarding standards of living in HU. My mother in law (a widow with social
security) has been hit hard, but there's tons of construction in the country-
side. Aniko's cousin Jozska says compensation & privatization has put some
money into the hands of the few, but that the majority are suffering. What was
really sad was to see Hungarian consumer products pushed off the shelves in
favor of foreign goods. I actually go to Hungary to buy its goods.  -Marc

Dear Marc,

> Re Fekete's comment about the socialist/capitalist Jewish connection:
 I just threw in Bibo's comment on confounding liberals w/Communists that
I found interesting.
> One should not forget to point out that after WWII, many Jews were naturally
> drawn toward the Communist party not only out of a desire for revenge, but
> as a haven of safety from what must have been perceived as a Hungarian
> populace with an anti-Jewish nature.
 Well, since many arrowcrossmen went for that same haven I found this
conclusion somewhat lacking ;-(. I do not see why the populace as a whole
must have been perceived of any nature. I think most Jews with such
negative feelings were typically emigrating - one more reason we can see
Jews as separate from Hungarians even less after WWII than before.

> With all the talk of Hungarian anti-Semitism, I personally believe most of it
> is a lot of baloney, particularly in the last decade. Unfortunately, the
> charge gets employed by those who seem to feel that fear-mongering will some-
> how advance their desire of dividing the Hungarian people. It's 1994, and the
> citizens of Hungary have had enough of it. Evidently, those who disagree
> didn't bother to vote in the last election.
 I am somewhat at loss as to what are you talking about - what "Hungarian
anti-Semitism", who's talking, what dividing?! Yes, I agree with you, and
Andras before, that anti-Semitism has enjoyed rather insignificant
following - who doesn't, and so what!? Does this mean we must line up
undividedly now behind Csurka who decries some lack of national unity
there ;-(... And how do we know who didn't vote and why?

-- Zoli

Zoli--

I would be curious to know if there's anything in English about arrowcross
who joined the communists directly after WWII. Or did they join only after '48.

All I was implying about the vote was that, from my observations, the
Hungarians in 1994 have basically turned their backs on nationalism in
general, in favor of more positive expressions of Hungarian identity (look
at new construction, for example, the boom in neo-traditionalist architecture).
In any case, Hungarians with any sense, who are looking beyond the country's
borders, have no desire to make life more difficult for those living as
minorities in fragile social circumstances.

                                           -Marc