In article >,
Peter k Chong  > wrote:
>light skin - not Mongoloid traits!!!) However it must be pointed out that
>while there is no shame in a Magyar-Mongol relationship (hell I belong to
>that Mongol race) it is not as common as the Caucasoid-Scythian-Turanian
>element (which has only very trace amounts of Mongol blood/genes/
>whatever) Sorry about that...

Oh, well. Still, a great line: "Hi, I'm part Mongolian."

Gabor

Subject: Tonalamatl/Thu. Aug 8, 1996

    Today is the 221th day of 1996 with 145 remaining.
    The moon is a waning crescent, moving towards its new phase. (25)
    The morning stars are Venus, Mars, Saturn.
    The evening stars are Mercury, Jupiter.
    Those born on this date are under the sign of Leo.

Maya Long Count: 12. 19. 3. 7. 1.  HO-Imix CAN Yaxkin
Mexica: MACTLACTLI-Tecpatl. MACUILLI-Cipactli Panquetzaliztli YEI
Otomi: RETA-Aneyaxi. K-UTA-Antoqhuay. Anthaxme HIU
Purepecha Uexurini: 10-Tzhinapu. Huryiyata: 5-Uxpi. Kutsi: Pancanscuaro 3
Zapotec: CAACHE-Pija. CAAYO-Chilla. Cocijo: TOBI-Loo. Cocij: TOBI-Xoo.
    Jueves 8 de Agosto de 1996
Today is the Saint's Day for Emilio, Largo, Ciriaco, Emiliano, Leonides

475 Years Ago, in 1521:
    [Day 9-Xochitl Year 3-Calli] Lord Cuauhtemoc is demanded to surrender by
    Cortes. He replies of his preference of dying in battle over submission.

"[H]istory is a catalogue of mistakes. It is our duty
 to profit by them" -- Cap. B. H. Liddell Hart


   Web URL: http://www.ironhorse.com/~nagual/alma.html

   FAQ SCM: http://www.public.iastate.edu/~rjsalvad/scmfaq/faqindex.html

Kedves Tamás                                                             
      Hm... Nagyon érdekes! I find that quite an interesting proposal 
considering that I am of Chinese origin. I have heard that Magyars (I am 
not sure about the other steppe tribes -> Mongols, Turks, Hsiung-Nu, 
etc.) have a mysteriously close relationship. For example in a book I 
read about Hungarian-Sumerian origins (Nagy, Sándor: "The Forgotten 
Cradle of Hungarian Culture") the author states that according to Ede 
Somogyi, the Fukien Chinese dialect has many Hungarian-sounding words 
such as: (first word is Magyar, second is Fukienese)                     
 én - én, zsir - sjer, kupa - kupa, szív - szív, hamu - homu (lit. 
"fire-wood" [tu"z-fa] i.e. ASH), ho"s - ho"s, ló - ló (ebben az esetben a 
kínai szónak "szamár" jelentesé), Tündér - tien (a kínai szónak 
"mennyország" jelentesé), stb.                                           
       There are many more such correspondances. Another cultural 
similarity I have noticed is that in Hungary especially in Somogy megye, 
the colour of mourning is white - the same colour used by Chinese and 
other Asians. Another author I have read stated that the use of wooden 
tomb markers by the Székelyek is very similar to that of Chinese burial 
customs (I really don't know if my ancestors really did this!) Other 
things mentioned included the Magyar trait of spelling names with the 
surname first (in Chinese my name is JUNG (Chong) Wai-Leung (Peter is my 
English name), the Székely tower ornaments which resemble Chinese pagoda 
tower ornaments and similarity in folk-arts and music. Maybe Chinese and 
the steppe tribes were one people... Or maybe the Sumerians after being 
chased out by the Assyrians and related warlike tribes in the 2nd 
millenium B.C. wandered in large enough numbers to China... Only God 
knows.                                                                   
      I do however have a slight question of the inclusion of the Magyars 
with the Finno-Ugrians. The only sure thing why people relate Finns and 
Magyars is that the two peoples share 250 common words. There are around 
1000 - 1500 Magyar words that can be related to the Turkic languages and 
around 2000 Magyar words that are related to Sumerian. In addition all of 
these languages which I have just mentioned have similar grammatical 
structures (i.e. vowel harmony usage, agglutination, no grammatical 
gender, etc.) I just get really touchy when people say the Magyars have a 
Finnish language. I agree that Magyars are Turkic (not to mention 
Scythian) and they are RELATED (in varying degrees) to such ethnic groups 
as the Finno-Ugors, Samoyeds, Mongols, Manchus, Chinese (?), Scythians, 
Elamites, Sumerians and Dravidians. It's just like English or German. We 
all agree that English is part of the Indo-European language group and it 
is related to Persian and Hindu. But I'm sure a linguist would brand you 
a fool if you said that English was a Persian-type language instead of a 
Germanic language. Magyar is Turanian (or Ural-Altaic) like Finnish, 
Mongol, Korean, Turkic, Dravidian and Sumerian but it seems that Magyar 
could very well be classed in its own Turanian branch as it is not very 
close to its linguistic cousins. OK, I think I've blabbed enough. 
Mindenesetre, ÉLJEN A MAGYAROK! ÉLJEN A KINAIOK! (Remélem, hogy jól 
írtam)                                                                   
      Udv                                                                
      Peter Chong

A couple more things I forgot to add originally: Are you sure the Székely 
runa is related ultimately to a Chinese script? (by way of Turkish) 
AND... Why the hell would the nomadic and mobile Turko-Mongolians want to 
copy the ways of a sedentary and sophisticated (am I biased?) people who 
were successfully bribing them to fight amongst themselves?              
                                                                         
    Kíváncsi vagyok                                                      
                                                                         
    Peter Chong

Dear Neil:

I was faced with a similar dilemma.  Hungarian geneology is very 
difficult from here.  The west is very west-centric, and any sort of 
heraldry is usuallly devoyed to Ireland England Germany, etc.  I went to 
Hungary and dug.  The Szechenyi Konyvtar (Count Szechenyi Library) on 
Castle Hill is a great place to start.  Hungarians are superb record 
keepers.  If you know where they were born, you can obtain a copy of 
their birth record.  On this record lists where they're parents were born 
 That's how I ended up in far Eastern Transylvania a few years ago.  You 
may be able to advertise on this group or ask around for a Hungarian to 
do the research for you in Hungary for a modest fee.

HipCat 
-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

>
> Immigrants are much more likely to work hard and produce useful
> products and services, rather than sponge off the state like
> so many American citizens do.
>
That is a very false statement. The only thing for which people do hard
work and produce useful products and services (to use your language) is
because they have will. This will is not to be found in immigrants, or is
not likely to be found in immigrants rather then americans. It is to be
found in people. Americans work just has hard as immigrants.

In article > Peter k Chong,
 writes:
>Kedves Tamás                                                             
>      Hm... Nagyon érdekes! I find that quite an interesting proposal 
>considering that I am of Chinese origin. I have heard that Magyars (I am 
>not sure about the other steppe tribes -> Mongols, Turks, Hsiung-Nu, 
>etc.) have a mysteriously close relationship. For example in a book I 
>read about Hungarian-Sumerian origins (Nagy, Sándor: "The Forgotten 
>Cradle of Hungarian Culture") the author states that according to Ede 
>Somogyi, the Fukien Chinese dialect has many Hungarian-sounding words 
>such as: (first word is Magyar, second is Fukienese)

>      I do however have a slight question of the inclusion of the Magyars 
>with the Finno-Ugrians. The only sure thing why people relate Finns and 
>Magyars is that the two peoples share 250 common words. There are around 
>1000 - 1500 Magyar words that can be related to the Turkic languages and 
>around 2000 Magyar words that are related to Sumerian.

I am not a linguist, but i've read quite a lot linguistic stuff in the
last couple of years.  I slowly understood, that the comparison of
the words in different languages which is so attractive and seems
very convincing to an amateur, is secondary to the comparison of
grammatical structures which are the primary stuff for a profes-
sional. (Very demanding to understand and not at all attractive to
an outsider. )

There are only 250 or so common Finno-ugric world only , because
you dont' have more words in any languages that are coming from such
an old past that can be compared to the ancient layer of the vocabuary
of other languages.  Some linguists guessed even that these words are
interrelated in every languages.
                     
>Tündér - tien (a kínai szónak 
>"mennyország" jelentesé), stb.

By chance I know that it has the same meaning in Vietnamese (however
the actual prononciation changes a lot on the meaning of this word). 
There are words that don't particularly belong to any language (like:
honey),
maybe the tündér belongs to this group.
                                           
 >Another author I have read stated that the use of wooden 
>tomb markers by the Székelyek is very similar to that of Chinese burial 
>customs

To the Ujhgur burial customs. AFAIK, they have the same "kopjafa",
that the Szekelys have.

>similarity in folk-arts and music.

In the early Chinese art the tree was a stressed sybmol of life. This
symbol (eletfa) made its way to the steppian cultures as well. I don't
know that it means something because according to C. G. Jung it belongs
to the symbols of the collective unconsciousness, so may appear in any
nations art or folklore (but may not be so emphasised ,perhaps)

The music similarities are astonishing. Needles to say pentatonic
in both countries. Lot of basic volk melodies are related or are the
same.

>I agree that Magyars are Turkic (not to mention 
>Scythian) and they are RELATED (in varying degrees)

Forget Schytian. There is no lingiustic remains fro mthat language.
No one knows anything about of that language.

Tamás

 (Gabor Barsai) wrote:


> This is due to a little known fact: that actually, the magyars are 
> from the planet Zog-3, ...

mmm... quite a pertinent and accurate contribution. I've appreciated it.

I doubt you can pass the phisical, when they test you for Mongolian 
genes.  Imagination wont count then.
Fred H. 
---
 ţ [TN71]

>> Slipstream Jet - The QWK solution for Usenets #UNREGISTERED

In article > Elmer Kuber,
 writes:
>Does anyone know where I can buy one in Hungary?

In a musical instrument shop.
I hope this help a little. :-)

Tamas

Asia is a great place, but the lifestyle can be pretty hectic.

That's why I was happy to find a site where I could meet 
some Asian girl penpals.

Take a look at AsiaWest FRIENDS at http://www.asia-west-friends.com/

The girls seem to be friendly and really looking for someone to write to.

Aaron

Looking for info on Emil or Emmanuel Justh who emigrated from Budapest via
Hamburg to San Francisco in 1850. He operated a printing business and was
a doctor. Helped Edwin Stanton in debunking many false Mexican land claims
in N.Calif. Moved to New York in 1859, founded banking house(?) Died in
Paris in 1883. Would part.like to know if he was of Jewish ancestry. Pls
e-mail any info to .

In article > Peter k Chong,
 writes:
>A couple more things I forgot to add originally: Are you sure the Székely 
>runa is related ultimately to a Chinese script? (by way of Turkish) 

It is assumed that the Szekely, Avar, Turk, old-Turk runas coming from
the Chinese writing either directly or through intermediator cultures
(perhaps Sumerian played such a role) . This question was and is still
under investigation. (Some people who made research on this field: 
L. Ligeti,  A. von Gabain, B. Karlgren, I. Szekeres, G. Vekony, E.
Grinstead,
K. Ryjik and possibly lot of Chinese scientists who have clear advantage
on thies field by knowing the Chinese writing well.) 

>AND... Why the hell would the nomadic and mobile Turko-Mongolians want to 
>copy the ways of a sedentary and sophisticated (am I biased?) people who 
>were successfully bribing them to fight amongst themselves ?

There were not always war. They heavily traded with each other,
so the nomads had the chance to see the Chinese way of life. Usu-
ally there were always nomads who lived under Chinese authority,
so they had close contact with the Chinese culture. It is not surp-
rising (maybe because of this) that the steppian tribes always
wanted conquer (sometimes with succes) China first.

Tamas

In article > I&G Jalsovszky,
 writes:
>A kiallitas anyagabol Hofer Tamas, a muzeum
>foigazgatoja a kiallito muvesz utolagos tajekoztatasaval nyolc festmenyt
>eltavolitott, kozottuk Horthy Miklos kormanyzo kepmasat.

Hat ez durva dolog vo't (bar erdekelne, hogy ki a masik het
aldozat). Ha a politikai tevekenysegeert nem is, de tenger-
nagykent, az elso vilaghaborus erdemeiert, tengereszkent
mindenkeppen megerdemli Horthy, hogy hoskent szerepeljen
abban az arckepcsarnokban.  Orrba-szajba szivatta az olasz
flottat, pedig az sokkal nagyobb volt, mint a K und K flotta.

Tamás

This notion that because there are similarities between Mongolian and 
Hungarian, that Hungarians must have been Mongoloid in the past is 
utterly idiotic.  The most recent linguistic research is already 
breaking the idea that the reason Mongolian and Turkic languages are 
distantly related has nothing to do with racial (or racist) views or 
common origin. They dont. But simple history. The terrytory 
of Mongolia originally was Hunish, not Mongolian. There is also 
evidence that the old Turkic and Hunish stratum was Caucasian and over 
time absorbed Tibetan, Chinese, Manchurian, Mongolian blood becoming 
more Mongoloid in time, while their Western branches remained 
Caucasian. There are many evidence for Altaic languages and people in 
eastern Europe fairly early in history which is generally ignored on 
the racist grounds that "they were not mongoloid". The early Hungarians 
who entered Hungary were every bit Caucasian as they are today and not 
just because they absorbed the local elements, some of which were 
Hunish descendants like the Avar-Huns. The same thing can be said of 
many early Turkic nations of the time. The spreading of Mongoloid 
racial features started very early but was greatly accentuated during 
the rise of the Mongol Empire when many Turkic and other people were 
absorbed, their men taken to war far from home and the local Mongol 
garisons took their liberties with the women. Even the Avar Huns in 
Europe, which had a somewhat mongoloid ruling clan, were on the large 
Caucasian except for these small inner clans. The idea that one can 
create history based on language is very silly and also very dangerous.
One should instead know history and try to use it as the guide to 
understand the evolution of language. The Ural-Altaic language family 
has and had many many western relatives in the past and need not and 
should not be derived from Mongolia, since originally they did not even
belong to this group. Some claim most of ancient Europe originally 
spoke this language as did most of the Near East (Sumir, Elamite, 
Hurrian which have a very large shared vocabulary with U.A. languages.
The early languages of India (Dravidian and Munda Kohl) also have a
surprising amount of commonality with Ural-Altaic and were at one time
in much closer ties with them.
(check out my webpage which has examples if you like 
http://exo.com/~fredh/honf.htm
So again the forcing out and shutting out of people of this language 
group and trying to place them into Eastern Asia is unusually racist 
and biased against them, and continues the Aryan supremacists lies, 
which is quite in opposition to what today's linguists and historians 
tell us.
---
 ţ [TN71]

>> Slipstream Jet - The QWK solution for Usenets #UNREGISTERED

I&G Jalsovszky ) wrote:
>A millecentenariumi rendezvenyek kereteben a Neprajzi Muzeumban allitottak
>ki Somogyi Gyozo festomuvesz "Magyar hosok arckepcsarnoka" c., eredetileg
>100 kepbol allo gyujtemenyet. A kiallitas anyagabol Hofer Tamas, a muzeum
>foigazgatoja a kiallito muvesz utolagos tajekoztatasaval nyolc festmenyt
>eltavolitott, kozottuk Horthy Miklos kormanyzo kepmasat. 

>Somogyi Gyozo szerint, aki a levett kepek visszahelyezeset es ezzel alkotasa
>egysegenek helyreallitasat keri, egy mualkotasba a szerzo hozzajarulasa
>nelkul belenyulni, abbol reszeket kivenni rongalas, amely szerzoi jogokat es
>alkotoi szabadsagot sert, az alkotonak sulyos anyagi es erkolcsi karokat
>okozhat. "En muvesz vagyok, es kepeket festettem, nem politikai plakatokat"
>- nyilatkozta a festomuvesz.

Amennyiben a kepsorozat mualkotasnak (egy db.-nak) szamit akkor elkepzelheto
hogy a dolog Copyright torvenyeket sert. Kerdeses, hogy melyik az
illetekes birosag ahol ezert perelni lehet (ugy tudom, hogy Magyarorszagon
ugyanaz aa (C) torveny ervenyes mint a vilag civilizaltabbik felen).

Zsoter Andras

A millecentenariumi rendezvenyek kereteben a Neprajzi Muzeumban allitottak
ki Somogyi Gyozo festomuvesz "Magyar hosok arckepcsarnoka" c., eredetileg
100 kepbol allo gyujtemenyet. A kiallitas anyagabol Hofer Tamas, a muzeum
foigazgatoja a kiallito muvesz utolagos tajekoztatasaval nyolc festmenyt
eltavolitott, kozottuk Horthy Miklos kormanyzo kepmasat. 

Somogyi Gyozo szerint, aki a levett kepek visszahelyezeset es ezzel alkotasa
egysegenek helyreallitasat keri, egy mualkotasba a szerzo hozzajarulasa
nelkul belenyulni, abbol reszeket kivenni rongalas, amely szerzoi jogokat es
alkotoi szabadsagot sert, az alkotonak sulyos anyagi es erkolcsi karokat
okozhat. "En muvesz vagyok, es kepeket festettem, nem politikai plakatokat"
- nyilatkozta a festomuvesz.

A Magyar Nemzet aug. 9-i szamaban megjelent informacio szerint (l.g.)
lapzartaig a levett kepek nem kerultek vissza a Magyar hosok arckepcsarnoka
c. kiallitas falara.

Gyermekkoromban, az otvenes evek elejen lelkes belyeggyujto voltam, es 12.
szuletesnapomra megkaptam a magyar belyegek katalogusat. Meglepetessel
tapasztaltam, hogy a katalogusban egyes sorozatok elnevezese, kepe es
arfolyama nem szerepel. Kesobb tudtam meg, amikor mar egy hasznalt
Zumstein-katalogus boldog tulajdonosava valtam, hogy ezek a sorozatok
reszben olyan belyegeket tartalmaznak, amelyek Horthy Miklos kormanyzo
kepmasat viselik. Hat ismet ide jutottunk 43 ev utan?

Jalsovszky Gy.

Cxi tiu artikolo aperis en la cxiutaga jxurnalo de Albany, 
sxtato Novjorko, Usono, julio 26a, 1996:  
(Esperanto cxe la fino)

English:

This article appeared on the Albany, NY, USA, newspaper, 
on July 26th, 1996:

San Francisco.  America Online, the nation's largest online 
service,reversed a week-old English-only rule in a soccer 
discussion forum after angry spanish-speaking subscribers
called it racist and threatened to cancel.

Many of the regulars in the forum hail from countries where 
soccer verges on a religion, and they flooded AOL with irate 
e-mail messages complaining that their Spanish postings were 
being deleted as quickly as they wrote them.

"AOL's supposed to let you communicate with the world, but 
we can't talk about our teams?" said Marcelo Rossetti, a 
Burlingame,California, graphic designer who led the protest.

On Thursday, AOL issued a public apology and a note that "AOL
now encourages members to post multilingual messages."

The rule, which took effect July 17, came about because 
America Online strives to maintain a G-rating for all its 
public areas -- which requires being able to understand 
what's been said.  None of the volunteers who monitored the 
forum for offensive statements spoke the language.

"We couldn't read the postings in Spanish or Portuguese," 
said AOL spokeswoman Cathy Johnson.

Although  __English is the unofficial language__  of 
cyberspace, the use of other languages is growing as more 
people globally get online.

---- fino de la artikolo ----

Esperanto:

La artikolo parolas pri AOL, kiu estas eble la plej granda 
servo en la mondo (pli ol  6 000 000  membroj, ecx mi) ne 
permesis hispanan lingvon cxe la diskutado pri piedpilko.
En Usono, la plimulto de la piedpilkaj ludantoj (ne profesiaj) 
aux spektantoj, parolas hispane, kaj multajn aliajn lingvojn.

AOL intencas cenzuri la publikajn babiladojn, por ke oni ne
metu ofendigan lingvajxon.  Sed la cenzuristoj komprenis nur
la anglan, kaj pro tio, ili malaperigis cxiujn messagxojn per 
aliaj lingvoj.

La jxurnalisto finigas la artikolon tiel:

Kvankam  __la angla estas la neoficiala lingvo de ciberspaco,__
la usado de aliaj lingvoj kreskas cxar pli da homoj en la
mondo partoprenas cxe la reto.

Enrique	>
Tre proksime de Albany, la cxefurbo de Novjorko sxtato, Usono.