Sorin Tuluca  > wrote to CHARLES VAMOSSY:
>
> My point was clear to me, but it seems not so clear to Joe who 
>acused me of loving my country from Ohio (even if only on a temporary 
>basis, but of course he couldn't have known that) or to you.

This idea that expatriates can not know what the situation is in their
original homeland is a typical BS coming from the former East Bloc
countries.  If anything, a good case can be made for them seeing the
problems clearer because of not being in the midst of it and at
the same time having had an exposure to other systems as well.
People living there are like people in the forest who can't see the
forest from the trees, so to speak.  Those of us who have spent some
years in Western democracies while at the same time keeping in touch
with relatives back at home, either by phone or frequent visits there,
know quite enough to diagnose their situation at least as well, if not
better, than those who live there and can't see the "forest."
Just look at their skewed views demonstrated in whom they elect to power
once they are free to choose; the same commies who got them here in the
first place.  Any expatriates could have made better choices than that!

But getting back to the case of expatriate Hungarians vis-a-vis
Transylvania.  You and other Romanians often accuse us with meddling
in issues there of which we have no idea.  Well, I am willing to shut
up if in turn you are willing to listen to and accomodate the wishes of
Hungarians who live there.  Such people as Laszlo Tokes and the
leadership of UDMR.  After all, they do live there, don't they?
But interestingly, you don't like their views either.  In light of that,
your complaints about expatriate Hungarians meddling in Transylvanian
affairs sounds hollow.

Joe Pannon

If you manage to find one, could you please e-mail me with the information, as 
i am 
interested in it also.  I have been looking for quite a while, and haven't had 
any 
success.  Have you heard of any good books/audio media for learning hungarian?
Thanks for any help.
Andras Szasz

Z. Major > wrote:
>
>Bizonyara sok olvaso tudja, hogy a HIX tegnapi bejelentese ota
>"HIX-altal tiltott gyumolcsot elvez" mikor a "Nemzet"-et olvassa.
>Talan meglepodik ezen, mivel a HIX bejelentese nem tartalmazza az
>alabbi informaciokat a Forum-cenzurarol, melyek alapjan vilagos,
>mi is a HIX hegemoniara valo torekvesenek hattere es lenyege.

En nem csodalkozom a HIX ezen lepesen, s mar reg vartam azt.  Gondolom
arra vart a druszam, hogy valami "face saving" urugye legyen erre.
Ez az urugy eleg veznanak tunik szamomra, mivel en eszre sem vettem,
hogy mit idezett a NEMZET a HIRMONDObol, pedig olvasom mindkettot.
Biztos nem lehetett terjedelmes az utankozles.

Ami a HIX hegemoniara torekveset illeti, nem kerulte el a figyelmemet
az, ahogy hirtelen kisajatitotta maganak a Battyanyi L. Alapitvany (BLA)
szolgaltatasanak HIXen valo publikalasat AZOK UTAN, hogy eloszor a
NEMZET kezdte azt csinalni.  Addig nem is lehetett latni a BLA-t az
Interneten!  Ezek utan eltudom kepzelni, hogy ha a NEMZET egy uj forrast
fedez fel, a HIX azt is megkornyekezi majd az exkluziv publikalas
erdekeben.  Innen nem tudni mi is az a "meggyozo ero", ami ujabban a HIX
mogott van, de gondolom az otthoni regi/uj ertelmisegi elit mellett,
valoszinuleg Soros papa penze is.

Ezeket ugy mondtam el, hogy kozben sokban magam sem ertek egyet a
NEMZETben kozoltekkel, ill. a kozoltek stilusaval.  En viszont komolyan
veszem azt, amit egyesek csak "slogan"-kent szoktak ismetelgetni:
"Nem ertek egyet a velemenyeddel, de harcolni is hajlando vagyok, hogy
azt kimondhassad."

KKU es BUEK!
Pannon J.

Sorin Tuluca > wrote:
>My point was 
>simply that Maghyars have a very good and well conducted propaganda, and 
>yes, taking advantage of other people lack of culture they can influence 
>and manipulate mass media. 

Sorin, as I mentioned before, you are really too kind and you pay us 
Hungarians living in the West too much compliment.  Yes, we do try to 
bring our concerns and points of view before the public.  I am 
encouraged by your reaction, since it means we are achieving at least 
some success.

>At the same time I was hinting at the fact 
>that they do it from outside the Hungary's borders, with a complete lack 
>of understanding of the new realities of modern Europe. 

Some of us are indeed living in the West, where during the decades of 
exile we learned the power of free speech and open communications.  We 
beging to disagree, however, when you accuse us of a "complete lack of 
understanding.  Frequent travels to the region, contacts with visitors 
to our shores, and even this Internet brings us very much up to date.

>You want it or 
>not borders in Europe are there to stay and I see no way for 12 mil 
>Hungarians to rule 6 mil Romanians (in case Hungary could "take back its 
>teritories"). The 19th century is history, and history repeats itself but 
>not that frequently and wrongly. 

Now you have lost me... and you are putting words in my mouth, words that 
I disagree with.   For the record:  I do not and never have advocated any 
border changes between Hungary and any of her neighbors, unless both 
freely countries decide to do it.   And no responsible member of 
Hungarian government (this one or the last) advocated anything like it.  
Hungary has repeatedly signed international treaties in the last few 
years that guarantee the sanctity of the borders.  The 19th century is 
indeed over and no one, except you, is bringing it up.  And frankly I can 
not imagine anything more stupid for Hungary and the Hungarians to do 
than to take on the task of governing 6 million Romanians!

The only thing I advocate is the same minority rights for Hungarians 
living outside Hungary in Romania, Slovakia or Serbia as those enjoyed by 
other Europeans, like the Tyroleans in Italy, for example.  This includes 
the right to language, culture, free association, self government in 
places where they constitute a significant portion of the population.


>	I have nothing against Maghiars, as I wrote a couple of times by 
>now; some of my friends are Hungarian (both from Romania and Hungary) and 
>they are better persons than some Romanians I know. This is for me 
>another proof that those who recently left their respective countries 
>know better than those who lost touch with today's realities. I find the 
>efforts of some Hungarians to denigrate Romania futile and unwarranted as 
>long as we have geographically to bear ourselves. 

If, in fact Hungarians living in Romania would feel they have no 
complaints about their treatment, you would not hear any complaints from 
me about Romania.  Besides, Romania does itself enough harm without 
anyone's help:  have you ever heard any country in the world passing 
anything as silly as the flag/anthem ban?  It boggles the mind that a 
majority of parliamentary deputies would actually introduce, debate and 
pass such a law and that the President of the country would actually sign 
it.

>If Hungary thinks that 
>the West of the Americans will place it on a pedestal as the smartest 
>country in Central Europe it is dead wrong.  The people in these regions 
>don't even know or care about any of our counties as long as there is no 
>profit to be made.

I doubt that anyone in Hungary would be silly enough to think such a 
thing.

 
>	And if we have to be pragmatic, Romania will always be supported 
>by France, Germany and U.K. against Hungary if any real dispute arises

I think at this point especially Germany, as well as the US, has enough 
money invested in Hungary to protect it, but I sincerely doubt (and hope) 
that neither Romania or Hungary would resort to violence to settle their 
problems.

 so 
>I really think that Maghiars should direct their efforts of finding a way 
>to pay their external debt and quell the anxiety of those who at first 
>believed their propagande and put a lot of money into Hungary.

Amen...  they are indeed working on the problem, which is not easy to 
solve.

 >I do not 
>want to engage in disputes but any keen economic observer of the region 
>knows by now that Hungary was a losing bet. Do not ask me to give proofs 
>and quotes because I don't have the time or the patiance. Those 
>interested should do a Dialog search using key words "bussines and 
>Hungary" and will see what I mean. After that they can also try "Romania 
>and bussines" and they will be amazed to find out how much things have 
>changed since 1990; the underdog is now a star, and its economic 
>prospects are great. 

I am well aware of Hungary's difficulties and the tough 
road she has to travel to undo 40 years of communist 
mismanagement.  I am very happy to learn from you that in 
the meanwhile Romania has turned into the land of milk and 
honey.  It is truly the miracle of the Carpathians that in 
a few years they have privatized their economic base, 
upgraded their aging industrial plants and brought the 
Romanian worker on par with their European counterparts.  
Congratulations!  I wish Hungary's problems were that easy to solve...

>Unfortunately, this is not what my mother is telling 
>me from Romania. 

See?  that's what you get for listening to your mother instead of the 
government's newspapers.

>In conclusion I don't care about the West of the 
>Americans because I know it's in vain and life will be hard in Romania 
>(and Hungary for that matter) for the next 15-20 years regardless of who 
>bashes who. The only way out is to forget this stupid trashing and try to 
>build some form of cooperation, maybe from two cripples we can make a 
>good one.

I agree with you....   Life is hard and will be in the region for a long 
time.  So stop listening to paranoid politicians who place the blame on 
everyone but themselves for the problems.  Instead of worrying about who 
displays which flag, they should worry about who displays which store 
advertisement.  And I think that if Hungarians in Transylvania are 
allowed to live in peace, they will contribute greatly to Romania's 
economy, regardless of which language they use to do business. 

>
>Same best wishes for X-mas and the New Year! S.Tuluca

Merry Christmas  and Happy New Year to you, too.

Charlie Vamossy

Pannon Jozsi szerint:

>Gondolom
>arra vart a druszam, hogy valami "face saving" urugye legyen erre.
>Ez az urugy eleg veznanak tunik szamomra, mivel en eszre sem vettem,
>hogy mit idezett a NEMZET a HIRMONDObol, pedig olvasom mindkettot.
>Biztos nem lehetett terjedelmes az utankozles.

Ebben Jozsinak valoszinuleg igaza van es talan sokkal jobb lett volna, ha
Hollosi Jozsi nem emiatt tiltja el Pellionisz/Szucs/Toth/Kiss urat a
HIX-rol, hanem azert, mivel szolasszabadsag urugyen Pellionisz allandoan
ragalmaz. Becsuletsertest nem vedi a "first amendment." Marpedig
Pellionisz ur ezt csinalja. Ha en osszegyujtottem volna mindazt a ragalmat
es hazugsagot, amit ez az ember nap mint nap utan osszehord a Forumon
egeszen szep kis becsuletsertesi perre lenne anyagom.

Ezert nem ertek egyet Jozsival, amikor Jozsi ezt irja:

>"Nem ertek egyet a velemenyeddel, de harcolni is hajlando vagyok, hogy
>azt kimondhassad."

Pellionisz urat senki sem akadalyozna meg abban, hogy politikai velemenyet
a vilag tudomasara hozza, ha azt nem undok, szemelyeskedo, becsuletserto,
ragalmazo modon csinalna. Marpedig ugy csinalja, es ha en lettem volna
Hollosi Jozsef, akkor en ezert tiltottam volna el a HIX-rol.

De ugyanakkor ne bagatizaljuk el a tenyt, hogy Pellionisz egyszeruen
engedely nelkul kozolte le a Battyany Lajos Alapitvany hireit--es ezzel
kapcsolatban BLA tiltakozott. Most pedig a Hirmondobol publikal, megint
engedely nelkul. Ez pedig a szerzoi jog megszegese. 

Ami pedig az alabbit illeti:

>Ami a HIX hegemoniara torekveset illeti, nem kerulte el a figyelmemet
>az, ahogy hirtelen kisajatitotta maganak a Battyanyi L. Alapitvany (BLA)
>szolgaltatasanak HIXen valo publikalasat AZOK UTAN, hogy eloszor a
>NEMZET kezdte azt csinalni.  Addig nem is lehetett latni a BLA-t az
>Interneten!

A BLA hirszolgalata kituno es en szemely szerint orulok, hogy a HIX-en
keresztul nagyobb olvasokozonsegre talal. Ami pedig a HIX hegemoniajat
illeti--szerintem ez nevetseges. Akarki elindithat egy masik HIX-et,
beleertve Pellionisz Andrast. De nem ugy, ahogy o csinalja: lopott
anyagbol osszeallitani egy kiadvanyt. Ha Pellionisznak olyan fontos egy
kiadvany, ami az o politikai vonalat tukrozi--tessek eredeti
hirszolgalatot osszeallitani, nem pedig masok munkajat lekozolni
sajtjakent!

Balogh Eva

Nota Bene:

The Program:

"Hungarian Literature and Criticism since
the Collapse of Communism"

7:15 - 8:30 p.m., Navy Pier, Chicago Marriott

Program arranged by the Discussion Group on 
Hungarian Literature. Presiding: Steven C. Scheer,
Saint Meirnad College

1. "Introduction: Chaotic Order," Steven C. Scheer
2. "Hungarian Literature Since 1989," Eniko Molnar Basa, 
    Library of Congress 
    (Deals with Hungarian literature in neighboring states)
3. "Difficult Homecoming: Emigre Writers and the 
    New Hungary," Laszlo K. Gefin, Concordia University

                             ***

People who are not members of MLA (The Modern Language
Association of America) may be able to obtain special 
passes to attend a single session. All members of MLA
interested in the topic of this program or just in 
Hungarian cutlure in general are welcome to attend.
I hope to see you there.

f=F9=D6=FD=AD=DEtw=FE=B4=D2K=DB=B2

=C72On Wed, 20 Dec 1995, Liviu Iordache wrote:=20
F=F8=A1=C6=FD=C0=E7vz=BC=F0x=F7HJh_=D0=ED=E6=A8=B6h_=AF=FD=AD=D1L=BD`
=FE=C8=DF=D6=CA=DA=F3=C3=D8/3Jy=CC=A1=DB=AA'=B4=BFX=E3`z=AE=E1=D5=C2=C6=C0=
=FE=CE=FD=ADP=ED=A1=FB=E1k=C0\=F7=C2=D9m=C5>=20
> >>I don't know what "honfoglala" means,
>=20
> >This term means "taking of the homeland" in Hungarian, referring to the
> >singular event in Hungarian history exactly 1,100 years ago.
>=20
> Thanks, I might have gone over this term once, but for some reason it
> didn't ring any bells this time.=20
>=20
> >>because the established historical facts described by Anonymus do not
> >>fit into the 5th century one must conclude that the chronicler was not
> >>having in [MIND] Attila the Hun.
>=20
> Sorry, I hope it  makes more sense this time :-)
> =20
> >>... Therefore, Atthyla regis, the
> >>last rex of the Siculi, was not Attila the Hun but probably the Khagan
> >>of the Pannonian Avar-Onogur federation.=20
>=20
> >Well, isn't it also possible that the Gesta is not to be taken too
> >literally, as is the concensus of Hungarian historians?  I think their
> >prevailing opinion is that Anonymus tried to write a chronicle to please
> >his contemporaries, primarily the nobility, filling gaps in his
> >knowledge with his rich imagination.
>=20
> Actually, when analyzed carefully, as Boba did, Anonymus' Gesta proves
> to be not an entirely  fictional story, as many Hungarian historians
> have suggested (Anonymus will always be blamed for   his inopportune
> mentioning of a certain Gelou dux Blacorum :-), but rather a
> reasonably accurate and logical historical account. As Boba pointed
> out, the interpretation of the information on "Athila" as being an
> effort by Anonymus to prove a dynastic or political continuity between
> Attila the Hun and Arpad, or an ethnic continuity between the Huns and
> the Hungarians, is based on the assumption that he did not know the
> basic facts of of early medieval history, or that he wanted and was
> able to tell his readers an "invented story. In simple words, the
> assumption sucks.  Anonymus, who in spite of his anonymity must be one
> of the most famous figures in the annals of historiography,  could not
> have hoped to deceive the reader of his Gesta in Western Europe, for
> whom he dedicated his work, a "literatus" well versed in medieval
> historiography:
>=20
> >>>>P, called the master, the notary of the late glorious Bela of good
> memory,  King of Hungary, sends his greetings to N, his dearest
> friend....[Prologue]<<<<
>=20
> The Gesta, written for a friend in the West, was unknown in Hungary. A
> copy of it was found in Austria only late in the 18th century, and
> until 1928 Anonymus' Gesta was kept in Vienna. Moreover, Anonymus
> could not have intended to mislead with an "invented" story the
> Hungarian nobility or the royal family descending from Arpad.
>=20
> >This may be the cause of such
> >anachronisms as you alluded to above.=20
> >>
>=20
> I can't think of any anachronism in Gesta. Anonymus' Atthyla, who was
> not Attila the Hun,  fits very well into the events of the 9th
> century. The information provided by Anonymus is not contradicted by
> any domestic of foreign sources, nor was his Gesta known to the
> authors of such sources
>=20
> >>An extremely interesting reading on this topic is Imre Boba's "One or
> >>two Attilas in the Gesta of Anonymus Belae Regis?"[Ural-Altaische
> >>Jahrbucher, 1990, 62, 37-73)
>=20
> >Wasn't this Prof. Boba teaching here at the U. of Washington back in the
> >'80s? =20
>=20
> Yes, that's him, Prof. Imre Boba of University of Washington, an
> American historian of Polish and Hungarian origin.
>=20
> >I seem to recall his name from Seattle Hungarian circles and I
> >may have even run into him before I knew of his fame.
>=20
> Hmmm, very interesting! If you run into him again send my regards and
> ask for his opinion on who was Gelou dux Blacorum :-)
>=20
> Liviu Iordache
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20

Kedves Jozsef (Pannon):

Az etikatlan masolas megkezdesere egy peldat lathatsz alabb.

A masik bekezdesed a BLA anyagok terjeszteserol: nos, a HIX nem terjeszti,
es soha nem is terjesztette a BLA Sajtoszemlet. A Sajtoszemle kizarolagos
meghatalmazott terjesztoje a Hungary.Network, onnan tolti le es terjeszti
(engedely nelkul) a Nemzet is.

Udvozlettel,
Jozsi

> ----------------------------------------------------------

HIRMONDO:
---------

A pedagogusok nyolcvan szazaleka sztrajkolt (MN, NSZ)

A penteki pedagogussztrajk resztvevoi az orszag minden reszebol a
Muvelodesi es Kozoktatasi Miniszteriumhoz intezett levelekben
fogalmaztak meg a magyar iskolarendszer es az oktatas jovojeert erzett
aggodalmaikat.  A Pedagogusok Szakszervezetenek becslese szerint az
egynapos munkabeszuntetesben valo reszvetel felulmulja az elozetes
varakozasokat, es orszagos szinten meghaladja a nyolcvan szazalekot a
csaknem 11 ezer kozoktatasi intezmenynel.

A sztrajk kozponti rendezvenyen, az ELTE Golyavaraban megtartott
nagygyulesen a szakszervezeti vezetok arra hivtak fel a figyelmet,
hogyha a kormany nem valasztasi igereteinek megfeleloen cselekszik az
oktatas felemeleseert, akkor nem Europa, hanem a harmadik vilag
szintjere jutunk el.  Egy ev alatt huszezer pedagogust bocsatottak el.
A sztrajk fegyverehez vegso elkeseredesukben nyultak a pedagogusok,
olyanok is, akik nem ertenek egyet a modszerrel, de nem lattak mas
kiutat.

ugyanez a Nemzetben:
--------------------

A pedagogusok nyolcvan szazaleka sztrajkolt (MN, NSZ)
 
A penteki pedagogussztrajk resztvevoi az orszag minden reszebol a
Muvelodesi es Kozoktatasi Miniszteriumhoz intezett levelekben
fogalmaztak meg a magyar iskolarendszer es az oktatas jovojeert erzett
aggodalmaikat.  A Pedagogusok Szakszervezetenek becslese szerint az
egynapos munkabeszuntetesben valo reszvetel felulmulja az elozetes
varakozasokat, es orszagos szinten meghaladja a nyolcvan szazalekot a
csaknem 11 ezer kozoktatasi intezmenynel.
 
A sztrajk kozponti rendezvenyen, az ELTE Golyavaraban megtartott
nagygyulesen a szakszervezeti vezetok arra hivtak fel a figyelmet,
hogyha a kormany nem valasztasi igereteinek megfeleloen cselekszik az
oktatas felemeleseert, akkor nem Europa, hanem a harmadik vilag
szintjere jutunk el.  Egy ev alatt huszezer pedagogust bocsatottak el.
A sztrajk fegyverehez vegso elkeseredesukben nyultak a pedagogusok,
olyanok is, akik nem ertenek egyet a modszerrel, de nem lattak mas
kiutat.

I just want to wish all my Hungarian brothers and sisters a Merry
Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Kellemes Karacsonyi Unnepeket es Boldog Uj Evet Kivanok.

Istvan Mihaly
Steve
Hungarian American Heritage Network

Jozsef Hollosi > wrote:
>
>Az etikatlan masolas megkezdesere egy peldat lathatsz alabb.

Hat az valoban nem sok, konnyu eszre se venni.  Tekintettel arra, hogy a
HIRMONDO es BLA is mashonnan masolja anyagat, nem latom mi itt a nagy
bibi, ameddig nem az egesz ujsag aranylag nagy reszenek egy az egyben
valo atmasolasarol van szo.

>A masik bekezdesed a BLA anyagok terjeszteserol: nos, a HIX nem terjeszti,
>es soha nem is terjesztette a BLA Sajtoszemlet. A Sajtoszemle kizarolagos
>meghatalmazott terjesztoje a Hungary.Network, onnan tolti le es terjeszti
>(engedely nelkul) a Nemzet is.

Hat ezert akkor valoban elnezest kell kernem s az allitasomat
visszavonnom.  Mentsegemul csak az szolgalhat, hogy a te ujsagjaid es
a BLA fejlece szinte tok-azonos.  Illusztraciokent hadd mutassam meg itt
a TIPP fejlecet:

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Issue____________: *** TIPP 1973 ***
Date_____________: Sun Dec 24 00:28:03 EST 1995
Publisher________: Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Disclaimer_______: Authors bear full responsibility for their articles.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Send-Articles-To_: >
Subscribe________: >   or >
Unsubscribe______: > or >
Help_____________: >
Supervisor_______: >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Itt meg a BLA fejlecet:

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Issue____________: *** BLA 114 ***
Date_____________: Thu Dec 21 02:52:07 EST 1995
Publisher________: Hungary.Network
Disclaimer_______: Authors bear full responsibility for their articles.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subscribe________: >
Unsubscribe______: >
Help_____________: >
Interactive______: http://www.hungary.com/bla/sajto/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------

Mint latod, itt is valami plagiumrol lehet szo, nem? ;-)
Persze ha te adtad oda nekik a HIX szoftverjenek a hasznalatat, az mas,
bar akkor te megsem vagy olyan fuggetlen a Hungary.Network-tol, mint
sejtetni engeded.  Egyaltalan, ki van e mogott az uj network mogott,
ha szabad kerdeznem?

Egyebkent Karacsony leven, neked is egy kellemeset kivanok.

Pannon J.

Would someone be so kind as to point a budding amateur historian
in the direction of some good english texts on the History of Hungary,
the Magyars, the Szekelry, etc.  I would greatly appreciate any
information, especially general texts.  I became interested in this
subject while studying military history.  Thank you.

I wish a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year for everyone.

Mindenkinek bekes Karacsonyt es sikerekben gazdag boldog Uj Evet kivanok.


bye-bye:Balint