In article >,
Jeffrey Goldberg > wrote:
>
>I for one will not be answering Liptak Bela's call to support the Pope's
>endorsement of national rights, but will oppose it.  Nations (as distinct
>from states) do exist, are an important and valuable part of the social
>fabric, and I hope will continue to exist.  But rights stem either from
>being human or from being a citizen of a state, and do not belong either
>to nations or come from them. 
>
>Among the rights that come from being human is the right to follow the
>language and culture of your nation.

Well, however you call it, the end result should be the same.
Hungarians also want to follow their language and culture in the
Romanian state, not that of ethnic Romanians.
BTW, what came first?  Nations or states?

Joe Pannon

In article >,
T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>
>Ez igy nem jo. Nem mint magyarok, hanem mint zsidobol lett *kommu-
>nistak* tettek azt, amit tettek.

OK, whatever.  A mondandom lenyegen ez nem sokat valtoztat.  Ez pedig az
volt, hogy amikor gazemberekrol van szo, akkor azokat nem ismerik el a
sajatjuknak.  Bezzeg amikor a Nobel dijasokrol, nagy muveszekrol, stb.
van szo ... 

>A magyarorszagi kommunista diktaturaknak viszont rengeteg koze van
>a zsido lumpen es egyeb ertelmisegiekhez. Nelkuluk nem johetett volna
>letre a Tanacskoztarsasag es a Rakosi diktatura ideologus es vezetoka-
>der-allomanyat is ok szolgaltattak.

>Ezt a karpotlast nagy csond lengi korbe, egyszeruen nem lehet rola ol-
>vasni semmit a sajtoban. Azt sem tudom, hogy pontosan milyen rete-
>get es miert karpotolnak. 
>Nem fordulhat elo, hogy olyasmiert akarnak penzt kapni, amely mar a
>nemet megszallas utan tortent vagy olyasmiert,  amire a nemetektol
>mar megkaptak a karpotlast ?

Szerintem is azert van olyan nagy susmus az ugyben. 
Eltudnad kepzelni azt, hogy egy orokos nelkul maradt katolikus vagyonara
a Vatikan tartana igenyt?  Valami hasonlorol (is) van ott szo.
Nem tudom hany bort lehet meg lenyuzni az otthoniakrol.

>Furcsa, de ez igy tortent. Mivel elmaradt a jogi felelossegrevonas (vagy
>alternativakent a kommunistak lampavasra valo felhuzasa) az ilyen AVOs
>ezredesek (vagy gyerekeik) mar reg felmarkolta'k a nekik jaro karpotlasi
>jegyeket.

Tudom.  Ezert is emlitettem.  A FORUMon kellet volna lenned vagy 4-5
evvel ezelott, s olvasnod azt a sok "ervelest" a Kadar jugendtol miert
is lenne helytelen a Zetenyi torveny!  S hogy mennyire tiltakoztak annak
meg a gondolatatol is, hogy egy olyan torvennyel esetleg csaladilag is
erintve lennenek.  Meghato volt latni azt a sok toleranciat toluk!
Olyannyira, hogy a vegen megalakitottak a sajat SZALONjukat.

P.J.

Ez jo! Kosz!

On 5 Oct 1995, Gyorgy Kovacs wrote:

> In article >,
> Steve Kovasznai  > wrote:
> >Valaki vilagositson mar fel, hogy miert van ennyi roman a
> >soc.culture.magyar newsgroup-on?
> >kosz.
> >kovi
> Nem tudom. Talan mert mindig eltevednek a hataron.
>   Gyuri
> 
>

In article > Alexander Bossy, 
writes:
> What Hungary  did before 1919 was far worse than what Romania
> is doing today.

AFAIK, the Hungarian minority would  be very content with that
rights that the Roman minority had in Hungary before 1919.  ;) :) ;)

Tamas

INTERNATIONAL CALL BACK
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>
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your wanted number. The billing starts when the call is answered to.
>
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>Convenient and easy to use
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>Responsive customer suppost
>Allow easy access to international conections and services
>confidential, secure telephone lines.
>

BILL


The minimum charge is for 30 seconds and then with 6 second increments. The bil
l
can be paid with credit card, telex or bank wire. Opening fee is 50 US$. The
service can be tested 30 days.  

>
>HOW TO GET THESE SERVICES
>
>
>Contact us and I will mail/fax you the application form.
>Within days you will have your own international call back account.
>
>
>Rate examples:
>USA-Canada               0.20 US dollars/minute and vice versa 
>USA-The Philippines      0.97 
>USA-Japan                0.53 
>USA-France               0.45
>Hong-Kong-Poland         1.1 
>Brazil-USA               0.86
 Brazil-France            1.11
 Germany-Japan            0.81
 Finland-South-Africa     1.24


We are happy to give you more information. Contact:
>
>
>                   
>Arvo Forsstrom     E-mail: 
                    FAX:    00 358 57 510722 (Finland)
>

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As a matter of fact I do, because they have a problem with the hungarians 
being in "their country", DUMBASS!!!!!

On 5 Oct 1995, hargitai wrote:

> Steve Kovasznai > writes:
> 
> >Valaki vilagositson mar fel, hogy miert van ennyi roman a 
> >soc.culture.magyar newsgroup-on? 
> >kosz. 
> >kovi
> 
> 
> 
> we've been old friends for quite a while.
> you have a problem with that, PUNK?!
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
>

In article > , 
writes:
>A FORUMon kellet volna lenned vagy 4-5
>evvel ezelott, s olvasnod azt a sok "ervelest" a Kadar jugendtol miert
>is lenne helytelen a Zetenyi torveny! 
[...]
>Meghato volt latni azt a sok toleranciat toluk!
>Olyannyira, hogy a vegen megalakitottak a sajat SZALONjukat

Csak hallomasbol ismerem a dolgokat, mert csak 2 eve forumozok.
Megjegyzem, a 'Kadar-jugend' fogalom sem letezett akkor, hisz masfel
eve vezette csak be Rambo Arpi.

Szerintem nem a Kadar-jugend helytelenitette a Tetenyi-Takacs ter-
vezetet,  hanem a forum veressszaju liberalisai. Abban az idoben ket-
polusu volt a forum.

Azert tartom ezt fontosnak hangsulyozni, mert magamat is a Kadar-
jugendbe soroltam/sorolom, de nem vagyok liberalis.  Orultem az
uj 'skatulyanak', mert azt hittem, hogy megtelik tartalommal, es ki-
alakul a forumon egy harmadik -hozzam hasonlo fickokbol allo- cso-
port, akik ugyan a Kadar régime-ben nottek fel, de nincs szegyellni-
valojuk. Ugy ereztem akkor, hogy sokan  nem illunk be sem a forum
'emigrans-konzervativok' sem a 'vadliberalisok' csoportosulasaba,
de nem is kivanjuk magunkat ezen a nepszeru magyar politikai palet-
tan definialni, viszont "felszavakbol is megertjuk egymast". A fo-
galom eredendoen nem politikai,  hanem kulturalis kulonbsegeket
takar.

Tamas

Wally Keeler ) wrote:
>
>When I was eight and nine years old I delivered newspapers to homes. At
>Christmas time, I noticed that it was the lower class people who gave me
>larger tips than the middle class or higher.
>
>Relative to history and to much of the world, Canadians are assured of a
>full life -- 3 meals a day, shelter, health care, etc. They are
>disconnected from the natural order of life-concerns -- day-to-day
>survival. They are liberated, as it were, and have the time to contemplate
>the meaning of their lives, something which youth indulge in vigorously.
>By so doing, they are confronted with a considerable emptiness and simply
>do not have sufficient reserves of imagination to fill in the emptiness to
>any degree. 
>

This reminds me to an old jewish joke:
 A jew goes to visit his rabbi and asks him: Why is that that all the poor
people I know try to help each other while all the rich I know just try
to hurt each other?
And the rabbi answers: Would you take a look at the windows, what do you see?
- I see a woman on the street with walking hand in hand with her child. Why?
And the rabbi says: Now take a look at the mirror, what do you see?
- Myself.
And the rabbi says: You see, the only difference between the glass in the
window and the glass in the mirror is just a very thin layer of silver,
and that is perferctly enough for a man to see only himself?

Andras

Hi,

Can anyone tell me the meaning and or the origin of the Hungarian
sirname, Dorony? I have a friend with it and he's curious about it. (I do
not know what, if any, accents were removed in the  "Anglicizing of it. 
By his pronunciation of it, I suspect that if it had any, itwould have
been o', and
not o").

He knows of  only one other family with the name, some cousins whose
ancestors came from the same area of Hungary as his ancestors did.  (I
didn't ask him what part of Hungary that was.)

Any information would be appreciated!  Please directly e-mail me, since
I usually don't have a ready access to the news groups.

ko"szo"mo"m

Ed Kovach 

My mother is selling some collectible letters and autographs of
artists, musicians (mostly classical), writers, and historical
figures who may be of interest to readers of this newsgroup.  (They
are being sold as part of a large auction later this month in Bethesda,
Maryland.)  For examples of some of the letters my mother is selling, and
how to get an auction catalog or send bids by mail or phone, see the
message titled "! Letters, autographs (arts, music, historical, lit.)"
in newsgroups:                                                 

       alt.collecting.autographs
or
       rec.antiques.marketplace

(The item of most interest to this newsgroup is a handwritten draft of a 
telegram from LAJOS KOSSUTH.  The telegram is to Gustavus Hebbe, and says 
simply, "Come immediately to New York.  Answer by telegraph."  It is 
dated 1852.)

Randy Steer.

TOM ANGI taking it IN
and singing : I love U, U love me... 
                                        
      
                
                    -----------
                  /      |      \
                 /       *       \
                (        @@       )
                /   /  -| |-  \   \                                           
                 /   /    | |    \   \               
              /   / ----|_|---- \   \
             /   //      |      \\   \
            /   //       *       \\   \
       ##  /  / (        @@       ) \  \  ##
       \ \/  /  /   /   -||-  \_  \  \  \/ / 
        \  /   /   / |       | \   \  \  /
              /   / /  o    o \ \   \
             /   /  (         )  \  `\
             <_ ' `--`__    _'--' ` _>
            /  '      / (O) \      `   \
       ##  /  /       (  v  )        \  \  ## 
       \ \/  /       @| o o |@        \  \/ /
         \ /          //////           \  /
               HARDER, HARDER , HARDER
                
 
Guess who's ON TOP ? 
 
       
 
          


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In article >,
T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>
>Szerintem nem a Kadar-jugend helytelenitette a Tetenyi-Takacs ter-
>vezetet,  hanem a forum veressszaju liberalisai. Abban az idoben ket-
>polusu volt a forum.
>Azert tartom ezt fontosnak hangsulyozni, mert magamat is a Kadar-
>jugendbe soroltam/sorolom, de nem vagyok liberalis.  Orultem az
>uj 'skatulyanak', mert azt hittem, hogy megtelik tartalommal, es ki-
>alakul a forumon egy harmadik -hozzam hasonlo fickokbol allo- cso-
>port, akik ugyan a Kadar régime-ben nottek fel, de nincs szegyellni-
>valojuk.

Ezek szerint ugy latszik mi maskent ertelmezzuk a Kadar jugend
kifejezest (amit en mellesleg az egyik legjobb elnevezesnek tartok, amit
a FORUMon eddig hallottam).  Ahogy en emlekszem, Rambo Arpi eppen a
veresszaju liberalisokra es azok segedcsapatara ertette ezt, mert ezek
beszeltek ugy, mintha meg mindig a keso Kadar-korban lennenk.  Tehat en
egyaltalan nem vettem ugy, hogy azt Arpi mindenkire ertette, aki akkor
nott fel.  Szerintem, ha sarkosan is fogalmazott, nagyon trafaltak a
megjegyzesei.  Epp ezert is szerzett maganak annyi ellenseget ott.

> Ugy ereztem akkor, hogy sokan  nem illunk be sem a forum
>'emigrans-konzervativok' sem a 'vadliberalisok' csoportosulasaba,
>de nem is kivanjuk magunkat ezen a nepszeru magyar politikai palet-
>tan definialni, viszont "felszavakbol is megertjuk egymast". A fo-
>galom eredendoen nem politikai,  hanem kulturalis kulonbsegeket
>takar.

Az tuti, hogy van kulonbseg a kulonbozo idokben kijottek gondolkozasa
kozott; de ez nagyreszt athidalhato egy kis johiszemuseget feltetelezve
a masik felrol.  Persze sokszor ez nehez a kezdeti nagy
stiluskulonbsegek miatt.

P.J.

Because repetition is the mother of all learning.

In article >,  > wrote:
>
>	Oh sorry I started to write that I had never posted on dual 
>citizenship but then rembered that I had posted a reply to a post about 
>it.  I must have missed your reply if you could e-mail it to me or repost 

I have a packet of some pretty worn (from repeated FAXing) official U.S. 
Dept. of State publications about the subject of dual citizenship.

The info consists of two pamphlets, one of whose target audience possibly
being the personnel of U.S. Foreign Service posts.  At least its format and
seemingly more "legalese" language suggests that.  The language of the other
leaflet is simpler, suggesting that it was perhaps aimed at the general
public, though it too, cites some decisive court decisions. They both are 
printed on official State Dept. letterheads.

The following is the full text of the second leaflet:

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

			  DUAL NATIONALITY

			  
WHAT IT IS:  Dual nationality is the simultaneous possession of two
citizenships.  The Supreme Court of the United States has stated that
dual nationality is "a status long recognized in the law" and that "a
person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and
be subject to the responsibilities of both.  The mere fact that he
asserts the rights of one citizenship does not without more mean that he
renounces the other", Kawakita v. U.S., 343 U.S. 717 (1952).  The
concept discussed in this leaflet apply also to persons who have more
than two nationalities.


HOW ACQUIRED: Dual nationality results from the fact that there is no
uniform rule of international law relating to the acquisition of
nationality.  Each country has its own laws on the subject, and its
nationality is conferred upon individuals on the basis of its own
independent domestic policy.  Individuals may have dual nationality not
by choice but by automatic operation of these different and sometimes
conflicting laws.

The laws of the United States, no less than those of other countries,
contribute to the situation because they provide for acquisition of U.S.
citizenship by birth in the United States and also by birth abroad to an
American, regardless of the other nationalities which a person might
acquire at birth.  For example, a child born abroad to U.S. citizens may
acquire at birth not only American citizenship but also the nationality
of the country in which it was born.  Similarly, a child born in the
United States to foreigners may acquire at birth both U.S. citizenship
and foreign nationality.

The laws of some countries provide for automatic acquisition of
citizenship after birth, for example, by marriage.  In addition, some
countries do not recognize naturalization in a foreign state as grounds
for loss of citizenship.  A person from one of those countries who is
naturalized in the United States keeps the nationality of the country of
origin despite the fact that one of the requirements for U.S.naturalization
is a renounciation of other nationalities.


CURRENT LAW AND POLICY:  The current nationality laws of the United
States do not specifically refer to dual nationality.

The automatic acquisition or retention of a foreign nationality does not
affect U.S. citizenship; however, under limited circumstances, the
acquisition of a foreign nationality upon one's own application or the
application of a duly authorized agent may cause loss of U.S.
citizenship under Section 349(a)(1) of the Immigration and Nationality
Act [8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(1)].  In order for loss of nationality to occur
under Section 349(a)(1), it must be established that the naturalization
was obtained voluntarily by a person eighteen years of age or older with
the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship.  Such an intention may
be shown by the person's statement or conduct, Vance v. Terrazas, 
444 U.S. 252 (1980), but in most cases it is assumed that Americans who
are naturalized in other countries intend to keep their U.S.
citizenship.  As a result, they have both nationalities.

United States law does not contain any provisions requiring U.S. citizens
who are born with dual nationality to choose one nationality or the other
when they become adults, Mandoli v. Acheson, 344 U.S. 133 (1952).

While recognizing the existence of dual nationality and permitting Americans
to have other nationalities, the U.S. Government does not endorse dual
nationality as a matter of policy because of the problems which it may cause.
Claims of other countries upon dual-national U.S. citizens often place them
in situations where their obligations to one country are in conflict with the
laws of the other.  In addition, their dual nationality may hamper efforts 
to provide diplomatic and consular protection to them when they are abroad.


ALLEGIANCE TO WHICH COUNTRY:  It generally is considered that while dual
nationals are in the other country of which they are citizens that country
has a predominant claim on them.

Like Americans who possess only U.S. citizenship, dual national U.S. citizens
owe allegiance to the United States and are obliged to obey its laws and 
regulations.  Such persons usually have certain obligations to the foreign 
country as well.  Although a failure to fulfill such obligations may have no
adverse effect on dual nationals while in the United States because the 
foreign country would have few means to force compliance under those 
circumstances, dual nationals might be forced to comply with those obligations
or pay a penalty if they go to the foreign country.  In cases where dual
nationals encounter difficulty in a foreign country of which they are 
citizens, the ability of U.S. Foreign Service posts to provide assistance may
be quite limited since many foreign countries may not recognize a dual 
national's claim to U.S. citizenship.


WHICH PASSPORT TO USE:  Section 215 of the Immigration and Nationality Act
[8 U.S.C. 1185] requires U.S. citizens to use U.S. passports when entering
or leaving the United States unless one of the exceptions listed in 
Section 53.2 of Title 22 of the Code of Federal Regulations applies.  Dual
nationals may be required by the other country of which they are citizens
to enter and leave that country using its passport, but do not endanger
their U.S. citizenship by complying with such a requirement.


HOW TO GIVE UP DUAL NATIONALITY:  Most countries have laws which specify 
how a citizen may lose or divest citizenship.  Generally, persons who do
not wish to maintain dual nationality may renounce the citizenship which
they do not want.  Information on renouncing a foreign nationality may be
obtained from the foreign country's Embassies and Consulates or from the
appropriate governmental agency in that country.  Americans may renounce
their U.S. citizenship abroad pursuant to Section 349(a)(5) of the
Immigration and Nationality Act [8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(5)].  Information on
renouncing U.S. citizenship may be obtained from U.S. Embassies and 
Consulates and the Office of Citizens Consular Services, Department of State,
Washington, D.C. 20520.

For further information on dual nationality, see Marjorie M. Whiteman's
Digest of International Law (Department of State Publications 8290,
released September 1967), Volume 8, pages 64-84.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


That's it.  Just one more thing from the other, more 'legalese' pamphlet
that sums up pretty much the U.S. policy on this:

"The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on
the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship
when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to routine
declarations of allegiance to a foreign state, or accept non-policy level
employment with a foreign government."

If the U.S. law is this liberal with those who obtain a foreign citizenship
_AFTER_ their American one, it follows that it's virtually impossible to 
lose U.S. citizenship if the other one already existed _BEFORE_ U.S. 
naturalization and was not lost automatically upon gaining the American 
citizenship.  I think this is the case for most naturalized Americans 
born in East/Central Europe.

Joe

INTERNATIONAL CALL BACK
>
>
>
>HOW DOES INTERNATIONAL CALL BACK WORK


You need a touch tone telephone (digital).
>
>
>You will be given a special access number to a computer in USA. You dial
the access number and hang up. The computer calls you back. Then you dial
your wanted number. The billing starts when the call is answered to.
>
>
>THE ADVANTAGES
>
>
>Can save you 30-70% on your telephone bills
>Convenient and easy to use
>Voice, fax and data communication
>Completely Itemized bill
>Responsive customer suppost
>Allow easy access to international conections and services
>confidential, secure telephone lines.
>

BILL


The minimum charge is for 30 seconds and then with 6 second increments. The bil
l
can be paid with credit card, telex or bank wire. Opening fee is 50 US$. The
service can be tested 30 days.  

>
>HOW TO GET THESE SERVICES
>
>
>Contact us and I will mail/fax you the application form.
>Within days you will have your own international call back account.
>
>
>Rate examples:
>USA-Canada               0.20 US dollars/minute and vice versa 
>USA-The Philippines      0.97 
>USA-Japan                0.53 
>USA-France               0.45
>Hong-Kong-Poland         1.1 
>Brazil-USA               0.86
 Brazil-France            1.11
 Germany-Japan            0.81
 Finland-South-Africa     1.24


We are happy to give you more information. Contact:
>
>
>                   
>Arvo Forsstrom     E-mail: 
                    FAX:    00 358 57 510722 (Finland)
>

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