> > the sight. For me religion still mostly means backwardness and hopeless-
> > ness. Sorry. Eva Durant
> >
> Despite of the above quoted I don't think that the larger part of
> humanity are backward and hopeless.

I am not talking about humanity, but about religion. Also, just be-
cause the majority believes something, it doesn't mean it is so,
(see: flat Earth etc)

>
> There was a memorable quotation in my coursebook after the Maxwell's
> eqoution: >>...
>              S. Bela.

I can't comprehend, why a super being gets the credit for the wonder-
ful things in natural world and human society, He/She/It should also
take the blame for the nasty stuff in my (again) very personal opinion.
OK I stop this, I stated before I want to avoid making people unhappy...
(not a requirement for an awful lot of religious people...)
And I said sorry... Eva Durant

>
> Well, could please someone explain to me how religion = backwardness!?
> My studies of Human History indicate otherwise.

So in the name of religion there weren't tonnes of people
murdered/tortured/persecuted through history? (And at this very moment)
Name your history book, please
>

> I had the opportunity to attend a state high school (Apaczai Csere Janos

I attended a state high school (and a really bad one: Haman Kato),
had a good time collecting information not necessary provided by the
curriculum. When I left, I'd found that in most areas I was better
informed than the average. What more, when children leave Hungary
(I have examples for USA, UK, France and Italy) after mastering
the new language, they are at the "top". This either means that
the Hungarian system has given them a good start in the 80s or
all my friends and relations are geniuses...

> you define backwards -- anyways?), they can do it while being the staunchest
> of atheists, I'm afraid.



>
> It seems to me that the idea of religion being escapist and backwards
> is mostly held by people who cannot accept the proposition that
> there might be some things we, as humans, may never understand and/or find
 out.
The very meaning of humanness is curiosity, if it wasn't we would be
still in  caves/ unless ofcourse it is all becouse of that apple...


> books to see how many believers have made major contributions to -- what I
> assume you think is -- progress.

They were curious believers, I tell you!

(That's it, honestly! Eva Durant)

On Thu, 1 Sep 1994 13:48:04 +0200 Gabor Ellmann said:
>
>
>Death is the hard nut.  How to leave the society without having the priests
>hanging around?  What to do with the body?  Plenty of practical questions...

--I'd be glad to help, but I have to know where you are.  In this country,
it is easy to avoid the church at death.  There are, indeed, practical
considerations, but they can be handled well in advance.  I hesitate to
say anything, because if you are in Hungary, the rules may be different.
And since you have a .com address, I can't figure out where you are.
Please advise.

--And thanks for the compliment.  I'm sure not everyone agrees, but
these are Hungarians and one does not expect agreement among Hungarians.
It would be unnatural.

Charles

Eva Durant:
   Just because religion might be useless to you (and me) does not mean that
it is without use.  In other words perhaps the majority (not the moral
majority) of the human race needs some sort of religion.  Not everyone can
reason and think in a logical manner.  In fact most people can't.  Most people
are ignorant, just look at the people they put in office.  Just look at the
music they put on top 40.  Just look at the books that fill the bookstores.
The fastfood joints that take over Paris and Budapest.  People are in general,
stupid.  "There is a sucker born every minute."-PT Barnum
    These people need religion.  They can't think.  They can only regurgitate
(yes, I know I spelled that wrong...just because I am illiterate, does not
mean I am stupid, does it?) what they hear on the radio, on the TV, and in
their church halls... And perhaps on Internet as well.... Society needs
believers in order to function.  Without the masses buying into the christian
work ethic, nothing would get done (for nothing).......marc

>
>    Just because religion might be useless to you (and me) does not mean that
> it is without use.  In other words perhaps the majority (not the moral
> majority) of the human race needs some sort of religion.  Not everyone can
> reason and think in a logical manner.  In fact most people can't.  Most peopl
e
> are ignorant, just look at the people they put in office.  Just look at the
> music they put on top 40.  Just look at the books that fill the bookstores.
...

> believers in order to function.  Without the masses buying into the christian
> work ethic, nothing would get done (for nothing).......marc

Hm. Somehow I cannot buy the idea - similar to Balogh Eva's I think,
that we know religion is that certain opium - but if it is necessary
to keep the system ticking over... why not. I think people are not
stupid (though I admit they tend to give a good impression otherwise)
but mostly had no stimulus/information/motivation/access to anything
alternative/new. The information revolution could help, -
I think the satellite tv did a lot of the central/Eastern european changes.
But than - it could be the worse enemy being in the hand of Murdoch and co.
I wonder how long before Internet will be closed for my types...Eva Durant

Satellite TV is wonderful!  I can watch MTV (Music, not Magyar) in Spanish. I
can watch Dallas in French, and I can catch a few German pornos.  If that is
not intellectual stimulation, what is???....marc

Hugh Agnew writes: (only important parts related to food are kept)

> A subtle but not insignificant difference?

> Perhaps the "administrative difficulties" alluded to account for the
> (apparent) disappearence of Pik salami from the Prague market:  could
the
> salami cognoscenti tell me how Herz stacks up vis-a-vis Pik?

> Yours from the land of pork and great beer,

> Hugh Agnew )

I don't know about you guys. First of all it is PICK, which is the pick
of this omnivore who grew up in the shadows of the place that combines
the donkey meat with other ingradients in the salami. Don't take me
seriously, it was a folktale rumor explaining the better taste of the
salami! Since they are a publicly owned company, they probably have
lawyers also and I don't want to want to get letter from Hickster,
Huckster and Salami LPA. As far as I am concerned Hertz was eaten only
when Pick was not available.
Please do not wash the Pick or Hertz, that processing is restricted for
Csabai only which is a different race from the above two. Do not serve
Pick or Hertz directly from refrigerator either, let them come to room
temperature (like British beer) and slice it very very thin, that way
the calories flow out.

Regards,Jeliko

Eva Balogh writes:

> May I suggest that Greg write a new paragraph about the ins-and-outs
of
> signing up for HUNGARY and send the letter off to Mr. Simon at the
Prime
> Minister's Office? Eva Balogh

I just came back from a frustrating trip to a government site where not
much is taking place other than spending taxpayer funds and studying
problems instead of solving them, and expected that the honorable
participants have sent a letter to the information colipheus by now.
However, whatever version it is, I second Eva's motion. Perhaps we should
send the same or similar letter to the other addresses that we have received
also?

Regards,Jeliko.

George Anthony writes:

> Just in a nutshell: in Czchoslovakia, the post-war Benes government
declared
> Germans and Hungarians collectively guilty for the war.

> This itself is a travesty of justice, but in practice it meant that there
> was no need to investigate, and prove, guilt in a proper process of law:
> any German or Hungarian could be punished for the collective guilt.  The
> practical manifestation was taking people for forced labour and booting
> them over the German and Hungarian borders with only the shirt over their
> backs. Those who were left lived in terror, and were exposed to petty to
> serious harassment.  Gustav Husak, the Stalinist dictator taking over after
> the crushing of the Prague Spring, is credited with saying that there is no
> Hungarian problem, only a problem with finding enough boxcars.  He should
> know: he was running the ethnic cleansing after the war.  When I went
around
> in Slovakia in 1976, I encountered cases when Hungarians did not dare to
> speak Hungarian in front of Slovaks.

> So, if we look further than "yes, but who started the war in the first
> place ?", there is some blemish on the winner side.  So far, the Czecho-
> slovak, Czech and Slovak governments have categorically refused to
> repudiate the Benes Doctrine.

> I suppose, the new Hungarian government is just trying to prove its good
> Hungarian credentials, in a rather unsubtle way.  It is purely for
> Hungarian consumption (within and without the borders of Hungary) and
> it has no chance of succeeding (especially with the nationalists' Meciar
> ahead in the polls before the upcoming Slovak elections), but can prove
> counterproductive.

> I would say, hardly a joke, all around.

> George Antony

Well, there are some additional questions that always puzzled me. At the end
of WW I, parts of the monarchy were declared losers (Austria, Hungary) while
other parts were declared winners (Czechoslovakia, Croatia, Slovenia albeit
the latter two attached to Serbia, etc.) at the end of WW II Czechoslovakia
was declared a winner even though part of it i.e. Slovakia was in the WW II
involved in military action against the Allies before Hungary. Similarly
Austria wiggled out from being a looser in WW II, even though its
participation in the action was a lot more enthusiastic than that of many of
the declared losers.

In WW I the Czech area was the center of the monarchy's war production and
the materiel contribution to the war was as significant as the personnel
contribution from "loser" areas.

Thus it appears that not all winners and not all losers are equal.

Regards,Jeliko.

Gaboe Fencsik writes:

> This question is answered in a classic Hungarian poem written by Karinthy,
> contained in his collection of literary parodies (Igy irtok ti):

>  A Herz-fele szalamiban
>  sokkal surubb a so',
>  mint mas hasonlo termenyekben,
>  hidd el, o' nyajas olvaso'!

> Since this little poem is part of a piece poking fun at botched literary
> translations, I will not attempt to come up with an English version.

Well, let's try it anyway:

In the Hertz-type salami
salt is not less meager
than in similar products,
believe me, o' dear reader!

Regards,Jeliko.

Gabor Ellman writes:


> Death is the hard nut.  How to leave the society without having the priests
> hanging around?  What to do with the body?  Plenty of practical
questions...
> I've heard about a community (?) or association (?) of HUMANISTS, who could
> advise one on these issues.
> Can somebody put me on the right track?

> Regards,    Gabor

Well, at least in Ohio one does not need any religion's permission to die.
You can make your personal arrangements, even ahead of time, with a funeral
home and the only needed document is a death certificate which is issued by
medical authorities. Whatever you want to do with the body or ashes can be
arranged. Service can be secular or religious or none. There are many
cemeteries that are not affiliated with any religion. There may be
regulations about burial on private land which relate to size of land owned
and zoning, etc. Ashes can also be placed in cemeteries or scattered on land
or sea.

At least here, no religious registration of birth is needed either. The
hospital and doctor issue the birth certificate not any church. Baptismal
certficates are issued only by appropriate churches.

If you are to squeamish about making arrangement directly ahead of time, it
is important to leave clear instructions to survivors, because the event is
more traumatic to the survivors.

Regards,Jeliko

> Eva Balogh writes:
>
> > May I suggest that Greg write a new paragraph about the ins-and-outs
> of
> > signing up for HUNGARY and send the letter off to Mr. Simon at the
> Prime
> > Minister's Office? Eva Balogh
>
> I just came back...and expected that the honorable
> participants have sent a letter to the information colipheus by now.
> However, whatever version it is, I second Eva's motion. Perhaps we should
> send the same or similar letter to the other addresses that we have received
> also?
>
> Regards,Jeliko.


Here then, is the latest version.  As to the instructions, others create, I
imitate:  I stole them from Zoli's FAQ.

As to sending it, I can do that, I suppose (in English) by snail-mail, but
I'd need an address, and I guess knowing his title would help. And I suppose
I would need permission to append others names to the letter.

Further, how has the  business affected our plans?  Is this
what Jeliko means by "other addresses"?

Most importantly, definition and etymology of colipheus, please.


--Greg

                                ***

Dear Mr Simon:

We are some of the participants of the electronic newsgroup
<bit.listserve.hungary>. Participation in this group is open and subjects vary
from current affairs to ancient history, with everything else in between.
One can find views, using the conventional political divisions, from left
to right. Submissions to the newsgroup are not subjected to anything but
self-censorship, and thus at times can be biting. Based on the pre- and post-
Hungarian election views, there are followers of many parties participating
in the discussions. Participation is international and generally is in
English. There is another newsgroup <soc.culture.magyar> which has similar
discussions more often in Hungarian.

After this introduction, we would like to make a proposition. It is, in our
opinion, important that communication between an open forum such as this
newsgroup and the Hungarian government be maintained. The opinions and
discussions of a newsgroup which is completely free of any government's
influence could be educational for Hungarian audiences; while the unfiltered
news from the Hungarian government is more valuable to our international
newsgroup than the often highly opinionated conventional media transmittals.

Therefore, we would like to respectfully invite the Informatika
Foosztaly to participate
by monitoring the discussions and contributing to them. If that is not possible
,
we would request the possible assignment of a particular contact point for
inquiries and follow ups regarding the policies and formal opinions of the
Hungarian Government.

This would be a win-win for both of us. You could gain
additional insight from the uncensored discussions of Hungarians and those
interested in Hungary, while the newsgroup participants could get
directly the opinions and policy briefings of the Hungarian Government.

We apologize in advance for the unavoidable harsh language that will occur in
our--as in any other uncensored--newsgroup, however the opportunity and
requirement for direct electronic communication is the wave of the future.

Attached are instructions covering how to subscribe to the list and how to
submit postings to it.

Regards, The Newsgroup.


<attachment>
To subscribe send email to
        

using no subject and a message consisting only of
        SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY Yourfirstname Lastname.

Once you have subscribed, any messages which you want to send to the
group should be sent to the group address,
        .

(This pattern of two addresses is standard: you turn your mail off and on
at the "listserv" address, and you send mail to the listname address.
For example, to  unsubscribe, send the server the message SIGNOFF HUNGARY.
You can temporarily turn off you mail by sending listserv the message
SET HUNGARY NOMAIL.  SET HUNGARY MAIL turns mail back on.)

                                ***

Greg,
> As to the instructions, others create, I imitate:
> I stole them from Zoli's FAQ.

 Then I pre-imitated you by mostly stealing them myself :-); it may be
interesting to note that much of the LISTSERV info stuff I took from
the superb archive at UCSB, the birthplace and now-late host of
HUNGARY, where Darren Purcell (sp?) and others placed some of the most
useful Internet/BITNET intros I've seen.

 Incidentally, once I'm thru with starting the semester I want to clean
the FAQ up a bit and then HTML-izing, for the emerging Hungarian www
scene. Any ideas for additions or corrections are welcome (to my
personal address please, not to the list), especially pledges from
brave volunteers to help ;-)! And as always, I'd like to hear from the
list readers whether they want to see it posted here more or less often?

-- Zoli , keeper of hungarian-faq

Well, Jeliko can spell Pick but Herz is giving him some trouble:

> As far as I am concerned Hertz was eaten only when Pick was not
> available.

This is all wrong, of course.  Hertz is eaten when Avis is not available.
Pick is eaten when Herz is not available.  And as for Pik, that must be
a Prague delicacy that Prof. Agnew will have to tell us about.  In spite
of Jeliko's claims to the contrary, all of these products require thorough
washing (before and after) with Pilsner Urquell, where available.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

In the United States, state laws cover such matters, but also local
laws have to be followed.  Here in New York state, you have to
register the birth in the village or town where the event occurrs.
Marriages, a license is filed with the town clerk, a Justice of Peace,
Judge or religious leader can act.  Death: if not cremated, the body has
to be buried in an "approved" place (we have a lot of family and old
plots, for which special permission is sometimes granted).  If
cremated, you can keep the ashes (I dislike the word cremains), can be
kept in the closet or the living room, or since we have many potters
around, included in your next coffee mug.  Elizabeth.

X-Sender:

Followup-To:
Distribution: bit.listserv.hungary
bit.listserv.e-europe-europe

Organization: Harvard University Science Center
Keywords:books

As Secretary of the Sabre Foundation, I am pleased to announce that our
Budapest affiliate, Sabre-Hungary Alapitvany, has completed the
distribution of more than 86,000 new, advanced science and technology
texts to libraries and research institutions in six countries: Hungary,
Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Ukraine and Bulgaria. For more
information  the Sabre Foundation please consult:
gopher.std.com/Non-Profit Organizations/Sabre.

Josiah Lee Auspitz

Gabor Fencsik writes:
> Well, Jeliko can spell Pick but Herz is giving him some trouble:

> > As far as I am concerned Hertz was eaten only when Pick was not
> > available.

> This is all wrong, of course.  Hertz is eaten when Avis is not available.
> Pick is eaten when Herz is not available.  And as for Pik, that must be
> a Prague delicacy that Prof. Agnew will have to tell us about.  In spite
> of Jeliko's claims to the contrary, all of these products require
thorough
> washing (before and after) with Pilsner Urquell, where available.

> -----
> Gabor Fencsik
> 

Well my heart is bleeding, I promise to be more herzlich in my spelling of
even the undesirable product. As an afterwash I'll take the Urquell,
although a good stout goes with it well also. But before, a good kisusti is
the best.

Regards,Jeliko

Greg: attached is the address and the title from my earlier posting, it has
title etc. BTW,I tried to send you direct message but it came back as
undeliverable.
Regards,Jeliko
PS Feel free to add my name if needed. Yes, I meant the address given by
Hollosi, however there was someone else also who had an address. but I have
dumped my files, somebody else may still have it.



> I have received today a fax from the "Magyar Koztarsasag Elnokenek
> Hivatala" part of which reads:

> "A miniszterelnokseg informatikai foosztalyan van E:MAIL, tobb
fohivatalban
> ugyszinten. Lepj erintkezesbe Simon Geza Foosztalyvezetovel:

>  cimen."

Jeliko writes:

> Greg: attached is the address and the title from my earlier posting, it has
> title etc. BTW,I tried to send you direct message but it came back as
> undeliverable.
> Regards,Jeliko
> PS Feel free to add my name if needed. Yes, I meant the address given by
> Hollosi, however there was someone else also who had an address. but I have
> dumped my files, somebody else may still have it.
>
>
>
> > I have received today a fax from the "Magyar Koztarsasag Elnokenek
> > Hivatala" part of which reads:
>
> > "A miniszterelnokseg informatikai foosztalyan van E:MAIL, tobb
> fohivatalban
> > ugyszinten. Lepj erintkezesbe Simon Geza Foosztalyvezetovel:
>
> >  cimen."


Ok, by email it'll go; what I need now is permission (email to )
to append other list-member's names.  Shall we say before Wednesday
the 7th?

Last minor point: Foosztalyvezeto is way beyond my humble powers of
translation.  Is Mr a sufficient substitute?  I've no ideas as to proper
forms of address to a head-office-director(?).


--Greg

On Fri, 2 Sep 1994 16:35:29 FST H. MARC said:
>    These people need religion.  They can't think.  They can only regurgitate
>(yes, I know I spelled that wrong...just because I am illiterate, does not
>mean I am stupid, does it?) what they hear on the radio, on the TV, and in
>their church halls... And perhaps on Internet as well.... Society needs
>believers in order to function.  Without the masses buying into the christian
>work ethic, nothing would get done (for nothing).......marc

--Excuse me, but I must mildly protest.  You have expressed a very
Philistine attitude that must be challenged.  There are many thoughtful
people who have religious beliefs.  Thinking differently doesn't mean
thinking wrong--except to the Philistines.  And there is nothing particularly
Christian about the work ethic.  Weber, whom I suppose you depend on for
the term, was clear about that and I will look out an appropriate citation
if you like.  He said, in essence, that the pursuit of profit was present
in all sorts of people since the beginning of time.  Besides, it's
Protestant ethic, not Christian ethic, isn't it?

>Jeliko writes:
>
>> Greg: attached is the address and the title from my earlier posting, it has
>> title etc. BTW,I tried to send you direct message but it came back as
>> undeliverable.
>> Regards,Jeliko
>> PS Feel free to add my name if needed. Yes, I meant the address given by
>> Hollosi, however there was someone else also who had an address. but I have
>> dumped my files, somebody else may still have it.
>>
>>
>>
>> > I have received today a fax from the "Magyar Koztarsasag Elnokenek
>> > Hivatala" part of which reads:
>>
>> > "A miniszterelnokseg informatikai foosztalyan van E:MAIL, tobb
>> fohivatalban
>> > ugyszinten. Lepj erintkezesbe Simon Geza Foosztalyvezetovel:
>>
>> >  cimen."
>
>
>Ok, by email it'll go; what I need now is permission (email to 
)
>to append other list-member's names.  Shall we say before Wednesday
>the 7th?
>
>Last minor point: Foosztalyvezeto is way beyond my humble powers of
>translation.  Is Mr a sufficient substitute?  I've no ideas as to proper
>forms of address to a head-office-director(?).
>
>
>--Greg

>

Greg,

   You have my permission to append my name to the letter.

   I belive *Mr.* is a sufficient substitute in the salutation.
But if you feel uncomfortable about it, ask him in the letter
what the proper form of address is. That info. would be good
for the future.

   Have a great Labor Day weekend,

                                     Amos

*  *                   Amos,..."not the famous"                 *  *
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