S.Stowe wrote:

>>It is interesting to realise that the early laws against the jews in =
>>Hungary (numerus clausus) were no more restrictive and in some aspects =
>>less so than similar laws and regulations which were in force in the =
>>1920's and 30's in other parts of Europe and even USA.
>
>Try as I might, I cannot even fathom what in the living hell you are talking
>about. There were no laws against Jews in the U.S. in the 1920s and 1930s.
>There were no laws against Jews earlier or later in this country. Louis
>Brandeis, for Pete's sake, was a U.S. Supreme Court justice during part of thi
s
>era, as was Felix Frankfurter a little later. There were horrible laws in the
>South which kept African-Americans from voting or holding public office and
>segregated public facilities between whites and blacks
>Sam Stowe

I cannot believe this! Are you serious Sam? You really did not understand
what Denes was talking about?!? You just have to read your very own post
to understand it!

J.Zs

P.S: Hints: Compare what the early numerus clausus did with the Hungarian
Jewry, and what those 'horrible laws" with the african-americans! Then ask
a simple question: What is the difference between oppresing Jews and African
Americans!

This is of interest only to translators Hungarian <> English.
-------------------
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****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:      URGENT

Background:
    The Danube lawsuit at the International Court in The Hague 
started March 3. This lawsuit will adjudicate the dispute between 
Hungary and Slovakia concerning the rerouting of the Danube 
onto Slovak territory.
    It is essential that we gain publicity on the lawsuit and the
support of world public opinion. Especially the support of American
politicians and leaders such as Secretary of State MADELEINE ALBRIGHT
would mean a lot for our cause.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to
make a statement in favor of the Danube. Feel free to use the attached
form letters (letter #1 for Americans, letter #2 for non-Americans).
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALBRIGHT FINDS THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN HER
MAILBOX. Therefore please make a chain letter of this call for action.
Send it to at least 5 of your friends. 
  PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAIL. These are more effective.
FURTHERMORE SEND COPIES OF YOUR LETTER TO: 
    Executive Assistant, Maura Harty
    Special Assistant, Carlene Ackerman
    Senior Advisor, Robert O. Boorstin (Room 7246)
    Assistant Secretary for Oceans, & International Environmental and
Scientific Affairs Bureau, Eileen B. Claussen (Room 7831)

address:
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520

e-mail address of Madeleine Albright:


*************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which to us Americans with Central European roots gives a special ray
of hope. We hope for even greater American understanding and
compassion for the people of Central Europe, for their progress and
stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which 
began March 3 in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent
with the US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and
Eastern Europe, and of engaging the US more actively in helping to
resolve emerging international conflicts in the region by (1) urging
your Western European partners to assist more proactively; and (2)
calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the
Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby
cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example for the
future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which gives a special ray of hope to the people of Central Europe. We
hope for even greater American understanding and compassion for the
people of Central Europe, for their progress and stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
began March 3 in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent
with the US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and
Eastern Europe, and of engaging the US more actively in helping to
resolve emerging international conflicts in the region by (1) urging
your Western European partners to assist more proactively; and (2)
calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the
Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby
cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example for the
future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:      URGENT

Background:
    The Danube lawsuit at the International Court in The Hague
started March 3. This lawsuit will adjudicate the dispute between
Hungary and Slovakia concerning the rerouting of the Danube
onto Slovak territory.
    It is essential that we gain publicity on the lawsuit and the
support of world public opinion. Especially the support of American
politicians and leaders such as Secretary of State MADELEINE ALBRIGHT
would mean a lot for our cause.

What to do:
  Please help to persuade Secretary of State Madeleine Albright to
make a statement in favor of the Danube. Feel free to use the attached
form letters (letter #1 for Americans, letter #2 for non-Americans).
   IT IS IMPORTANT THAT ALBRIGHT FINDS THOUSANDS OF LETTERS IN HER
MAILBOX. Therefore please make a chain letter of this call for action.
Send it to at least 5 of your friends.
  PLEASE ACT!! Please SEND EVEN SNAIL MAIL. These are more effective.
FURTHERMORE SEND COPIES OF YOUR LETTER TO:
    Executive Assistant, Maura Harty
    Special Assistant, Carlene Ackerman
    Senior Advisor, Robert O. Boorstin (Room 7246)
    Assistant Secretary for Oceans, & International Environmental and
Scientific Affairs Bureau, Eileen B. Claussen (Room 7831)

address:
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520

e-mail address of Madeleine Albright:


*************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE:  First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which to us Americans with Central European roots gives a special ray
of hope. We hope for even greater American understanding and
compassion for the people of Central Europe, for their progress and
stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which
began March 3 in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent
with the US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and
Eastern Europe, and of engaging the US more actively in helping to
resolve emerging international conflicts in the region by (1) urging
your Western European partners to assist more proactively; and (2)
calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the
Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby
cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example for the
future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
United States Secretary of State
U.S. Department of State
2201 C Street, NW
Washington, DC  20520
(E-Mail:  )

RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

Dear Madame Secretary:

Please accept my congratulations on your well-deserved appointment,
which gives a special ray of hope to the people of Central Europe. We
hope for even greater American understanding and compassion for the
people of Central Europe, for their progress and stability.

Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
began March 3 in The Hague. This new tone would be consistent
with the US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and
Eastern Europe, and of engaging the US more actively in helping to
resolve emerging international conflicts in the region by (1) urging
your Western European partners to assist more proactively; and (2)
calling on both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the
Compromise Plan prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby
cooperate in the quest for a solution that can set an example for the
future.

Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
(multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
bilateral agreements drawn up by non-representative governments under
the regional policy framework formerly imposed by Moscow.

Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
but rather fulfilling an American obligation. This is because it was
the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between Czechoslovakia and
Hungary, and it was that Treaty which named the Great Powers as the
guarantors of the integrity of the two nations' territories. The
Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have the right to make
changes without the prior approval of the Great Powers. Yet in 1977,
under Soviet direction, the two nations signed a contract to move the
Danube, previously their border river, into an artificial canal on
Slovak territory. For this they neither asked nor received the
necessary approval of the Great Powers.

Madame Secretary:  The International Court of Justice must be advised
that the Moscow-initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
that the Danube is returned to its riverbed, thereby restoring the
political and ecological stability of the region.

Madame Secretary, a single statement from you will resolve this issue.
Please make that statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address, title>

In article >, Janos
Zsargo > writes:

>I cannot believe this! Are you serious Sam? You really did not understand
>what Denes was talking about?!? You just have to read your very own post
>to understand it!
>
>J.Zs
>
>P.S: Hints: Compare what the early numerus clausus did with the Hungarian
>Jewry, and what those 'horrible laws" with the african-americans! Then ask
>a simple question: What is the difference between oppresing Jews and African
>Americans!

Hint for you, Janos: He didn't draw a parallel between the treatment of Jews in
Hungary and the treatment of blacks in the U.S. He tried to say that Jews were
subject to the same kinds of numerus clausus laws in the U.S. which were
applied to them in Hungary. Perhaps you'd better read the posts a little more
carefully.
Sam Stowe


"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.

Actually what I was thinking of were restrictive numerus clausus regulations in
 force at universities such as Harward and Princeton which indeed did stop some
 Jews from attending thes universities just because they were Jews. The regulat
ions were framed in general terms and probably had unintended results. The laws
 in Hungary were similar and therefore acceptable on the whole. They became una
cceptable when individual families had to prove their ancestry for two generati
ons. It stuck too near home then.

Regards
Dénes. 



----------
From:  Janos Zsargo[SMTP:]
Sent:  Monday, 17 March 1997 14:40
To:  Multiple recipients of list HUNGARY
Subject:  Re: Istvannak es a Magyar listanak

S.Stowe wrote:

>>It is interesting to realise that the early laws against the jews in =
>>Hungary (numerus clausus) were no more restrictive and in some aspects =
>>less so than similar laws and regulations which were in force in the =
>>1920's and 30's in other parts of Europe and even USA.
>
>Try as I might, I cannot even fathom what in the living hell you are talking
>about. There were no laws against Jews in the U.S. in the 1920s and 1930s.
>There were no laws against Jews earlier or later in this country. Louis
>Brandeis, for Pete's sake, was a U.S. Supreme Court justice during part of thi
s
>era, as was Felix Frankfurter a little later. There were horrible laws in the
>South which kept African-Americans from voting or holding public office and
>segregated public facilities between whites and blacks
>Sam Stowe

I cannot believe this! Are you serious Sam? You really did not understand
what Denes was talking about?!? You just have to read your very own post
to understand it!

J.Zs

P.S: Hints: Compare what the early numerus clausus did with the Hungarian
Jewry, and what those 'horrible laws" with the african-americans! Then ask
a simple question: What is the difference between oppresing Jews and African
Americans!

Dear Readers:

   Some of you may remember the time when we were told to sign a petition in th
e
old country to the U.S. to spare the lives of the Rosenbergs. They were
sentenced to death, allegedly for selling the secrets of the atomic bomb to the
Soviets.
   Some of you may have heard also, that Pierre Salinger, former Press
Secretary of President Kennedy now living in Paris,  claimed that the TWA
800 flight to Paris was shut down by a missile, fired from an American
submarine.
   What the first item has got to do with the second one?
   This morning I read in The Vancouver Sun:

   Quoting from Associated Press, Washington:

   "...the new twist in the long-argued story of treachery comes from
Alexander Feklisov, 83, a retired Soviet intelligence officer who has
stepped forward with a detailed account of the Rosenbergs' role.
   Feklisov said he held clandestine meetings with Julius Rosenberg in New
York City from 1943 to 1946 and is the only Soviet intelligence officer
still alive with firsthand knowledge of the Rosenberg case.
   ...Feklisov said Julius Rosenberg recommended David Greenglass to him as
a possible recruit in 1944. Greenglass worked as as a mechanic at Los
Alamos, N.M., where the first atomic bombs were assembled. Feklisov insists
that Greenglass provided little of use to Moscow, which had other valuable
spies at Los Alamos.
   Feklisov said the principal contributions by Rosenberg were secrets about
U.S. military electronics. He cited Rosenberg's passing of a fully
functioning proximity fuse, a secret U.S. innovation that enables an
anti-aircraft missile to bring down its target without hitting it.
   Rosenberg assembled a duplicate proximity fuse from discarded spare parts
and smuggled it out of the Emerson Radio Factory in New York City in
December 1944.
'I have a Christmas present for the Red Army' Feklisov quotes Rosenberg
telling him at their next meeting."

   I don't even try to guess what really happened...
   Did the U.S. have an anti-arcraft missile developed by 1946?
   If not, could one exists now, or is Feklisov just pulling our leg?
   Still, it bothers me, how the U.S. Navy could shut down an Iranian
airliner in the Persian Gulf some time ago with over 300 civilians on board?
   Was this another "accident"?

                                         Istvan L. Szabolcsy

Dear Readers:

   Further to my previous message:
   Does any of you know how the U-2 plane was shut down over the Soviet Union?

                    Istvan L. Szabolcsy

At 07:27 PM 3/17/97 +1000, Denes wrote:

>Actually what I was thinking of were restrictive numerus clausus
regulations in force at universities such as Harward and Princeton which
indeed did stop some Jews from attending thes universities just because they
were Jews.

        Well, actually there were no "restrictive numerus clausus
regulations." What was--at least at Yale University and I assume at some
other Ivy League schools as well--a certain unwritten, unspoken policy which
basically kept the percentage of Jewish students at about 10 percent. Today,
when no such considerations exist, the percentage is about 35 percent. But,
and I think we must emphasize this, this kind of unspoken/unwritten policy
existed only in some snotty schools which certainly then Yale was one of.
        The Hungarian situation was entirely different. The numerus clausus
was embodied in law passed by parliament, although the word "Jewish" was not
mentioned in the law, it was the only group to which it was applicable.
Basically the law said that minority enrollment at universities cannot
exceed their percentage in the population at large. And by the way, just to
keep the record straight it wasn't terribly strictly enforced. Or rather, it
depended on the university.
        ESB

In article >,
 says...
>

>And what's this nonsense about socialists/communists dehumanizing
>health-care?  Is allowing everyone equal access to health-care,
regardless
>of income, dehumanizing?

Come on, Joe!  From your previous correspondence you hinted that you are
much-much younger than most of on this list are, who lived through the
communist era and came out in 56.  I remember very well that we always
had to give money to the doctor to get service.  And this didn't change.
As I mentioned before, over 20 years ago I had to wait 3 months for a
knee surgery.  My late mother suggested from Budapest, I should give $20
to the doctor to get into the hospital!

Agnes

In article >,  says...
>
>OK. It,s difficult, the posting is not up anymore on this
>server. Somebody asked about the 7 tribes, OR the 7 chiefs
>of the magyars who led them to settle Hungary.
>I wrote to confirm Agi H., that the 7 chieftans were:
>A'rpa'd, Elo"d, Ond, Kond, Tass, Huba, To:ho:to:m.
>We contradicted Istvan L., saying: that's how we learned in
>elementary school, in or around 1942 (only I, Agi, of
>course, much-much later ;-)
>Since I consulted "A Magyarok kronikaja" (Thuroczy Janos)
>and Homan-Szegfu's : "Magyar Tortenet".
>Ecce:
>
>According to H.-Sz., the seven tribes were (and, I believe,
>that was the original question): Nye'k, Megyer,
>Ku:rtgyarmat, Tarjan, Jeno", Ke'r and Keszi.
>H.-Sz. also provides us with the names of seven elected
>Leutenants (hadnagyok tanacsa) as follows:
>A'rpa'd 's      father  A'lmos
>Szabolcs           ''   Elo"d
>Korca'n            ''   Kende
>Ete                ''   Ond
>Horka              ''   Te'te'ny
>Le'l               ''   Tass
>-no name stands here-   Huba
>
>Thuroczy's Kronika on the other hand provides us the names
>of the seven Kapitan'y who came in to settle the land:
>A'rpa'd, Szabolcs, Gyula, Ku:nd, Le'l, Ve'rbulcsu, and O:rs.
>
>
>Whether I lessened the confusion or caused it to grow, I
>don't know. Can somebody clarify?
>
>Thanks!
>Dominus
>
>P.s.:  But why the historians are so quiet? They are not
>required to opine, or judge; no whys or whatnots - only
>seven names they remember. If memorybanks are empty, fine.
>No dares, no comments from either sides.
>Thanks. D.v.
>
>
That's very interesting.  Why did we learn it differently?  Incidentally,
I was in grade 4 in 1942.  A Skot iskolaban.

Agnes

Unfortunately, I can't read any of the coded messages.  However,
I have very fond memories of Bakonyszentkiraly where I spent many
beautiful summers as a child in the Kellner pension.  There were two
pensions, one owned by the Kellner, the other by the Krausz families.
The parents perished in the holocaust.  The Kellner son, Ali, survived,
married a surviving Krausz girl, and they left the country and lived in
New York where I accidentally met them at a bat micva.  The conversation
turned to Bakonyszentkiraly and I mentioned my pleasant memories.  That's
when the old couple told me who they were!

I don't know if this is interesting for you, since - as mentioned above -
I couldn't decipher your codes.

Agnes