On Sun, 7 Jul 1996, Robert L. Stanelle wrote:

> I do not want on this list!  Someone please tell me how to get off.
>


Robert,

When you subscribed, you too must have received the necessary
instructions.  Here they are.


You may leave the list at any time by sending a "SIGNOFF HUNGARY" command
to   (or ).


Good luck!
Martha

>
> Only 24 hours? What kind of coach was it...jet propelled? Surely it
> would take the best part of that just to get to the continent...more
> like 2 days, at least, no?
>

Start from London Victoria at 10:30 am, and usually arrives
between 2-4 pm next day.  It seems to go faster on the
return journey...  (starting at 3pm what used to be called
Engels Ter - I'am still at loss with the new  street names -)
arriving to Victoria usually before 3pm next day.

Eva D

Kedves Jozsi!
Felreertettem valamit es a lista nem nyilvanos, vagy csak valami mano bujt
a rendszerbe?
Udv Viking

>Return-Path: >
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>To: 
>From: Lajos Hajdu >
>Subject: gyertyagyujtas
>
>
>Idorol-idore megjelenik ez a felhivas a kulonbozo HIX forumokon. Kb egy evvel
>ezelott a TIPP hasabjain a kovetkezoket valaszoltam ra.
>>
>>A mecsesgyujtasi felhivas hangneme megint azt  eredmenyezi nalam hogy az
>>osszes musculus erector pili gorcsot kap (=felall a szor a hatamon). Lehet
>>hogy sok embernek ez szent erzes, csodas euforia, egyuvetartozas onti el
>>a lelkeket, de pont azert mert ez egy ilyen megrazo erzes takarekosan kell
>>banni vele. Az ember konnyen olyan szellemet szabadit ki a palackbol ami
>>egy uj Hitlert vagy Karadzicot eredmenyez, es szornyu nehez vissza-
>>gyomoszolni. A vilag legsotetebb ideologiait vontak be ilyen cukormazzal,
>>vagy ha  nem vagyunk ilyen borulatoak akkor is dorzsolheti valaki kezet a
>>hatterben es jol megszedi magat. Semmikepp sem szeretnem 
>>meggyanusitani, egyszeruen megszolalt a riasztocsengom, es szeretnem
>>indokaimat megosztani virtualis barataimmal. Sokszor mocorgott bennem ez
>>az erzes durva cigany-magnum, vagy zsido viccek kapcsan....
>>... A magyarkodast sziveskedjetek az aktualis nemzetekre leforditani
>>ugyanugy zavar a nemetkedes is, az amerikaiaskodas stb is. Hiszen a nemzeti
>>sajatossagok tulzott hangsulyozasa arra vezet hogy kulonbek vagyunk masoknal,
>>es azok a masok kenyszeritve erzik magukat hogy bizonygassak hogy ok sem
>>rosszabbak. Az erveles soran hamar elokerul a kes vagy geppuska es kontinense
k
>>borulnak langba.
>
>Azota sem valtozott a velemenyem. Az hogy  Laborfalvi idonkent kap lelkes
>levelet is engem semmikepp nem tevesztene meg mert a hurra (joszandeku)
>tarhalashoz volt kapcsolva.
>Viking
>
>
>
>

This thread has gone on for a long time.  It began because Eva Balogh
seized on an assertion of mine about Communism being a consequence of
capitalism.  We have now been talking past each other for several turns,
both of us getting increasingly frustrated and neither of us can persuade
the other one.  I suspect this is because we probably have a different
conception of causation -- and most of the other readers on this list agree
 vith Eva's model.  Therefor I see no benefit from continuing on.  I
concede.

I must, however, make a few points of clarification.


Eva wrote quoting me:

>
>>I immediately saw that one
>>could never understand history with out understanding anthropology.
>
>        My, my. A lot of historians are frauds then because most of us
>neglected to study the field.

At Sacramento State it was a more or less required subject for history
majors.  That is why I took it.  For a historical work informed by a
sociological vision, written by a real adherent of Historicism, see Ernst
Troelch,  _The Social Teaching of Christian Churches and Sects_.

> In any case, please explain to me why it is
>necessary to study anthropology, for example, for diplomatic history. Or
>economic history? Or straighforward political history. Golly, you read
>something and if it appeals to you you just swallow the whole thing without
>asking yourself: is that really so? Do I have to study anthropology in order
>to study the foreign policy of Hungary between the two world wars?

It seems to me that History is largely a matter of making informed
cojectures (untestable at that  -- the past is gone for ever, only its
consequences remain) about the past behavior of people engaged in social
action.  This action cannot be rightly understood without some
understanding of culture and its relationship to what is universal about
human behavior.  In other words, the fabric of history consists of human
behavior informed by culture and this is the perview of anthropology.
Anthropology has also contributed an important tool to the social sciences,
namely methodological cultural relativism.  This is the closest one can
approach objectivity when dealing with human affairs.  Please read: Clyde
Cluckholn, _Mirror for Man_.

>
>>I also belaboured the point that 'facts' are meaningless without context --
>> Russia when viewed in isolation may seem to be an underdeveloped country
>>which hadn't yet even fully reached the feudal stage,
>
>        Well, that is an exaggeration. Please don't just throw words around
>like "capitalism" or "feudalism." Russia wasn't that backward! But
>admittedly, serfdom was abolished only in the 1860s and at the time of World
>War I some peasants were still paying for the lands they received.

Part of being cognitively challenged is never remembering something I read
somewhere.  But I did read somewhere that the economic relations in Russia
never attained the stage of true feudalism - the argument seemed convincing
at the time, but I no longer remember the criteria by which 'feudalism' was
defined.
Maybe someone else can help us review the differences between the
relationship of the crown and its holder to the greater and lesser nobles
in an weberian ideal type of feudalism and what existed in Russia in the
18th and 19th centuries?

>>You have a Ph.D. from Yale for pity's sake.
>
>        Don't underestimate me and for your enlightenment it is not for
>"pity's sake," but for "Pete's sake." I think it has something to do with
>Saint Peter.
>

Please Eva, do not pick knits.  Replacing 'Peter' with 'pity' is a common
euphemism used in many parts of the States and Canada where there was a
Calvinist influence or a Methodist one.  In effect, one avoids actually
commiting  sacrelige.  Some people say 'shoot!' instead of another word
that starts with 'sh'. Try a night class in folklore or restrain yourself.


>>Being cognitively challanged, among other things means, that if it were not
>>for computers and keyboards I couldn't write as well as this because I
>>can't spell very well.
>
>        So are a lot of people in this country and more and more in Hungary.
>The way you talk you give the impression that without the spell check you
>could not write a decent letter because of your spelling. Two days ago, you
>wrote a very lengthy contribution to Forum (#2042) and your spelling in
>Hungarian is just fine and I very much doubt that you have spell check in
>Hungarian, especially considering that we cannot use diacritical marks on
>the Net. Is it possible that perhaps you exaggerate your problems with, at
>least, spelling?


I was not talking about spell checks, which I do not have in 'Eduora', but
the backspace key.  It makes my life so much easier to be able to just
correct the mistakes I make without having to mess with rollers and
white-out.  And as for Hungarian orthography, I find not having to worry
about diacritical marks eases my life tremendously.

The symptoms of A.D.D. are individually trivial and most of them happen to
everyone occasionaly.  I am sure, everyone has had the experience of
getting up, going to another room, and forgetting what he or she went for.
But if it happens several times a day, every day, then it is a problem.
Taken together, the various symptoms are slightly annoying but can be
worked around with a bit of planning.  Add to it a physical deficit and it
becomes a major obstacle to functioning.

The worst effects are not really the actual symptoms, but what happens to
one in school. For exsample,  I won an essay contest in the first district
of Budapest in the second grade.  But I soon learned to hate writing
because two or three hours of my life daily had to be occupied with
practicing my pennmanship, which was terrible, and improved hardly at all
with the practice.

At anyrate, I don't want pity or simpathy.  My addmitting the whole thing
to you, started as a kind of joke, because I was getting criticized for
trivial errors (I forget what) and I wrote back with an apology and said,
"what can I tell ya, I am cognitively challenged").


>>>        Did I want to exploit you because I argued with you about the
>>>origins of the Bolshevik Revolution?
>>
>>No!  What makes you say that?  I have nothing but the highest regard for
>>you.
>
>        I can't imagine how you must write to people for whom you don't have
>"the highest regard." I feel pity for them.
>
>

I don't write to people whom I have no regard for and whose opinion I don't
care about.

I really am sorry that I frequently disagree with you.  And I really do
think that your contributions to this list and the ones on HIX are, for the
most part, very useful.  And I apologize, if in the heat of argument I said
things that came off being hurtful.

Peace be with you,

Tibor Benke

>That is a myth. Lenin never mentioned that in his writings. And he
>wrote plenty.

I wrote:

>Perhaps the incident that provoked Lenin's hatred of the Russian
^^^^^^^^
>monarchy and the Czar occured in 1881, ......

NPA.

-interesting and informative  text cut-
>
> And just for the sake of maintaining Hungarian content, do you think it is
> genetics or culture that makes most Hungarians regardless of background, or
> political orientation pedantic and intolerant?  I suffer from it myself,
> (though I make an effort to suppress it)  so I was just wondering.
>
> Tibor Benke
> 

I wonder myself. when we lived in Hungary, whatever
work my husband did on the farm, there were people
coming by, and sure they'd found everything wrong
with it and they all knew better... Upto a point
this was ok, as my husband has only seen a live pig
on the telly before, but it can be somewhat off-putting
for an Englishman, who tend to ask advice only in
extreme conditions.  I think it is the culture!
On the positive side is the enquiring mind of people,
which always brings progress - sadly missing from
some on this list...

Eva Durant

Pretty good description of the Hungarian 1-8 system
in the 80s, now there are more variety than anyone
could possibly wish for.

Eva Durant


>
> Dear fellow-listmembers,
>
> I second Andra1s's questions about the teacher situation in Hungary (and
> the Visegrad countries).  I think it would be a very illuminating compari-
> son related to the whole problem of "transition" (if we're still in that
> stage).
>
> I can't give details about the Hungarian situation, and the last thing I
> saw dealing with the issues was the film, "Sweet Eva, Dear Bobe" if I've
> remembered the title correctly -- an excellent film dealing with gymnasium
> level teachers in the post '89 era.
>
> Some personal anecdotal stuff related to the Czech republic.  My three kids
> go to the local Czech "zakladni skola" (Basic school, corresponds to US
> grades 1-9) in the district in Prague where we live.  Admittedly, this
> part of Prague 6 -- Dejvice (Hanspaulka) is something roughly corresponding
> to Rozsadomb in Buda, so I don't know how "typical" this school is.  The
> building dates to the 1930's though they've recently completed a new
> additional structure to house cafeteria and the after-school care center
> "skolni druzina".  Before that the building was modernized and attics
> converted to extra classrooms to deal with student numbers.  I think the
> total number of students in the school is somewhere around 900-1000.  My
> children are in grades 1, 4, and 6 during this year that is just finishing.
> The first and fourth graders have a single teacher for all subjects, except
> Czech language and English language and music, my sixth grader has a class
> teacher who also does history and geography while the technical subjects
> have specialized teachers (Czech and English language, mathematics, physics,
> biology, etc.).  Most of the teachers I have seen or met there are women,
> though there are some men, one young teacher who deals with grade 3 is male.
> The principal and her two deputies are female, the principal holds an MA
> and is trained in Russian language; one assistant holds an MPaed (I think)
> the other an MA.
>
> By newspaper accounts and anecdote, pay is low, and morale is correspondingly
> poor.  Just before the beginning of the school year this year, there were
> negotiations with the government on pay and conditions, and the threat by
> the teachers' union of a strike at the beginning of the school year.  This
> did not come to the point of strike, actually.
>
> People tell us (and this goes for university-level teaching as well) that
> the basic problem is the pay structure:  it's so low for teachers that any
> young person finishing their training, especially if they are skilled in
> languages or technical subjects, can jump to the private sector and start
> at salaries approximately 4 times what they make as a teacher.  I do know
> that my son's 4th grade teacher is leaving the school at the end of this
> year.
>
> Impressionistically, I rate the Czech elementary school highly.  Teaching
> is perhaps a little more "old-fashioned" than we are used to here now, but
> my kids seem to thrive on it, as do their Czech friends.  Again, on anecdote
> and impression, it seems to me that the system in the US (here my experience
> is limited to what would probably be considered "elite" schools -- public
> schools in university towns, a large proportion of whose graduates go on
> for tertiary education) may do better at encouraging questioning, and
> self-expression-- though as I get older and more curmudgeonly, I feel
> that perhaps in our system the pendulum has swung a bit too far in this
> direction....
>
> Altogether, we're pleased enough with the experience overall, and the
> specific school structure, to keep our kids there another year.
>
> For what it's worth, and I'm sorry, Andra1s, that this doesn't have to
> do with Hungary either, but it's a lot closer (oh, yeah, and for Hungarian
> content, the kids of the first secretary at the Hungarian embassy go to
> this school, and Sano sometimes plays with my kids, though they aren't
> in the same class...:-)
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Hugh Agnew
> 

>
> At 11:55 AM 7/7/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:
>
> >        And finally, may I assume that Tibor, Joe, and Eva D. by not
> >answering my piece on the roots of Russian communism admit that Russian
> >communism didn't owe its existence to the evils of capitalism. Can we close
> >this discussion by saying that the main impetus for the February Revolution
> >came from war weariness and the Bolshevik revolution from the weakenesses of
> >the Russian middle class and the Provisional government's unwillingness to
> >conclude a separate peace with the Central Powers?
>

I still think, that unsuccessful fights for socialism
in France, Britain, Italy, Spain, Germany were put down -
with totelitarian help in the cases of the weeker ones,
such as Germany, Italy and Spain at the time - I can
still not see an argument against the weekness of
the Russian industrial-feudal establishment as a
reason for the appearent success of the 1917 revolution.
The individual mistakes made are irrelevent in such an
analysis. Different mistakes were commited to allow
the 1919 initial peaceful takover in Hungary - but again, the
ruling establishment that became defunkt as a precondition.

I cannot respond to all - I haven't the time, I'm not
a professor yet... :)

Eva D

Hi, sorry for the confusion.. I'm interested in any feedback
from a students point of view.
thanks alot,   Michael

In article <v01540b03ae05d31679c4@[204.191.170.143]>, E Fischer
> writes:

>you indeed *are* pedantic and intolerant as you know nothing of mr.
benke's
>circumstances yet choose to attack him in such a vituperative fashion.
>
>

And you know nothing of Benke's circumstances either, beyond what he has
told you, yet you choose to defend him without bothering to ascertain the
veracity of his claims. While I don't suppose this qualifies you as
intolerant, it does expose you as a pedant of the "politically correct"
sort. By the way, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like for you to take a
look at. And some waterfront property in Florida.

Given Tibor Benke's exhaustive, nay Fabos-Beckerian, posts, I think we
have reason to doubt the degree of his cognitive challenge. We have other
clues implicit in his posts, namely the fact that he's a pretty good
speller and uses the language with facility, that might lead us to wonder
just how hard he's having to concentrate to get his message out to the
world. Obviously, he's not autistic. Empathy is a wonderful quality in a
human being, but when it is disconnected from one's faculty of critical
scrutiny, it can lead one to swallow even the most transparent bogus
bullshit claims. Or, as that great Canadian philosopher Alanis Morrisette
says, "You live; you learn."
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Anyone think to check the DMSR-IV to see what it has to say about
cognitive disabilities, if anything?

P.S.S. -- Can't sign your posts with your real name, EF? That marks you as
a rank coward in my book.

"If Rose don't like the city life,
I think I'll take her home..."
 -- The Flatlanders (Joe Ely, Jimmie Dale Gilmore and Butch Hancock)

P.H. Wrote:

01:>Katkov could not even prove the connection between the secret
    societies

02:>And what did Japan do? Did they attack Russia? They did not.

03 >Lenin did not start or finish the Revolution of 1905. He was
   >not in Russia during most of its course.
   >He was not exiled to Switzerland. He went there voluntarily.

04:>Incorrect. Kerensky escaped with US help. The Bolsheviks let
   >the cabinet go free.

05:>Try to handle your "facts" with greater care.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
Let me see the first book on my shelf: Dmitri Volkogonov, Lenin

01: Just before the February revolution he (Kerensky) had become
secretary of an important branch of the Russian political Freema-
sons, and it was on the basis of this network that many of his
political alliances were founded. (page 129)

02: In 1904 the country stumbled into a war against Japan over
control of Chinese territory in Manchuria, 6000 miles from Euro-
pean Russia, and by the middle of 1905 Russia's resources appeared
exhausted, and humiliation seemed certain. (page 64)

   Zinoviev as Chairman of Comintern, tabled a paper on the budget
and the preveious week's forecast was revised upwards by a further
reserve of 400,000 gold roubles as a first instalment. Zinoviev
explained that he needed 100,000 gold roubles at once 'for agitation
among the Japanese troops'. (page 50)

03: On the eve of the 1905 revolution there were probably 10,000
paid-up members of the Party altogether. In his memoirs, the former
Bolshevik A.D. Naglovsky wrote that in the summer of 1905 he was
sent by the Kazan committee to Geneva to hand over 20,000 roubles
to Lenin and await instructions. (page 54)

   Lenin was lucky with his Nowy Targ arrest. Upon return to Russia
   would have meant prosecution, and forced exile. Lenin could not
   even bury Krupskaya's mother in Russia, She was cremated in Berne.
   Yelizaveta Vasililievna's ashes were sent back to Leningrad after
   1969. Lenin could only return to Russia on 16 April 1917. (my
   note)

04: When Lenin read the list of names in the Provisional Goverment
he remarked sarcastically, 'the bourgeoisie has managed to get its
arse onto ministerial sears' (page 107)

   With "freedom and socialism" on their lip, the insurgents are
resorting to casual violence. They have arrested members of the
Provisional Goverment, including the socialist ministers, and
imprisoned them in a tsarist casemate. At the same time the Chief
of the General Staff, General Dukhonin appealed to the army to
remain loyal to the Provisional Goverment and to put end to
Bolshevik violence, calling for the Constituent Assembly as the
only body capable of saving the country. This was the breath of
the civil war for which Lenin had agitated. (162)

   Kerensky remained either inside Russia in hiding or nearby Fin-
land throughout the civil war, and in 1922 he left for Berlin and
subsequently Paris. When France fell in 1940 he left for New York
ehere he remained until the mid-1960s, when he moved to the Hoover
Institution at Stanford University in California. He died in New
York in 1970, at the age of eighty-nine.

05: P.H. Please do not lecture me.

NPA.

Why does he not want to be on the list, so emphatically (notice his
exclamation point).  I think we should survey him.  Is it because he has
no interest in things Hungarian--or maybe it's because he can't take the
bitchiness and backbiting he finds so frequently in our postings.  Perhaps
it was the "proctology" exchange which finally got to him.

Really, we must tell him that this isn't because we're Hungarian, we're
just human.  Or is the former after all? . . .   (To judge by my Hungarian
relatives, I often wonder.)

And now I post this--and, uh-oh, here comes the deluge.  I've got my armor
on already.

:) Burian

Very nice flat in the 14th (XIV) district (Zuglo) of Budapest.  Third
floor location fully furnished.  Modern bath, kitchen, and excellent
view.  Quiet area with very nice neighbors.
Five minute walk to the Ors Veser Tere (end of the red metro line in Pest).
Ten month to one year lease.  Please contact:

Maria Banfalvy/Philip Dietrich
Szervian utca 28.III emelet
Budapest XIV, Hungary
361-184-0296

email:  

Anyone on -line from the Akos Nagy Family. He is traveling to the USA as
an exchange student this fall.


Amy Forsyth

I&G Jalsovszky write:
> 1. Why to mix private political opinion into linguistic questions?
Because I didn't want to follow Orsza1gh and leave the reader without a sense
of stylistic value. Like it or not, the term _nemzeti_ is at this point a
highly political and emotionally charged term, and the current value is very
different from what it was in e.g. "Nemzeti Dal".

> 2. The opposite of "nemzeti" may well be "nemzetkozi" (international), a key
> term used on the left (in particular Ka1da1r's Hungarian Socialist Workers'
> Party - see Orsza1gh, 2nd ed., p2142), to praise their comrades.
Seems to me you'll have a hard time denying the term is politicized, if your
first reaction is to note that an opposed term also carries a political value
in Hungarian. As it happens, many politicians use _nemzeti_ primarily to
distance themselves from 'international' which was indeed a communist
buzzword. I disapprove of this usage for the same reason I disapproved of MDF
using "Thy will be done" on an election poster: I don't find it appropriate to
use noble sentiments, be they patriotism, religious sensibilities, the love of
children, or whatever, in the pursuit of a rather mundane political goals.

> 3. I do not see how Fidesz adopted this right-wing codeword.
>
> If Andra1s Kornai wanted to hint at the new name of this party, it is Fidesz
> Magyar Polga1ri Pa1rt, in which name "magyar" means Hungarian. To explain
> the opposite of "magyar" is not my cup of tea, perhaps Andra1s Kornai or his
> favourite right-wing opponents will do the job.

No, I didn't, I "hinted at" various statements by Viktor Orba1n in which
_nemzeti_ was expressly mentioned. I'll try to dig out something for you -- it
caused quite a bit of surprise and was widely quoted in the press at the time.

Andra1s Kornai

In today's The  New York Times I observed the only item about Hillary
Clinton's visit to Hungary. It is a photograph of a smiling Mrs. Clinton
with some smiling women and a child offering her flowers, and the following
text:

"Support for Hungary's Gypsies

Hillary Rodham Clinton was presented with flowers yesterday at a Gypsy
service center in Budapest, where the First lady urged Gypsies, Hungary's
most ostracized minority, not to lose hope in face of bias."

Gabor D. Farkas

Gabor Farkas wrote:
> In today's The  New York Times I observed the only item about Hillary
> Clinton's visit to Hungary. It is a photograph of a smiling Mrs. Clinton
> with some smiling women and a child offering her flowers, and the following
> text:
>
> "Support for Hungary's Gypsies
>
> Hillary Rodham Clinton was presented with flowers yesterday at a Gypsy
> service center in Budapest, where the First lady urged Gypsies, Hungary's
> most ostracized minority, not to lose hope in face of bias."

And what is the photo/30 second TV grab on her visit to the Czech Republic
where the bias against Gypsies is systemic, e.g., denial of citizenship ?

BTW, what is a "Gypsy service center" ?  A car filling station with a Gypsy
mechanic on duty perhaps ?

George Antony

At 12:10 PM 7/9/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:

>And what is the photo/30 second TV grab on her visit to the Czech Republic
>where the bias against Gypsies is systemic, e.g., denial of citizenship ?

I don't have a TV, I'll be out of town for a few days but when I'll get
back, I'll let you know about the future photos.

>BTW, what is a "Gypsy service center" ?  A car filling station with a Gypsy
>mechanic on duty perhaps ?

It did not look like it. I assume they mean welfare agency office. Maybe the
AP correspondent who wrote the text does not speak English and  used the
Orszagh dictionary ;-)))))))))

Gabor D. Farkas