re comments by Kadar Gyorgy:
Many commentators agree that the lack of recognition of group rights has for
 some
time been a crucial ommission in international law.  But what is really  lackin
g
 is a
credible means of achieving international recognition of the concept of group
 rights.
 The  many states who most often violate group rights would somehow have to be
convinced to recognize group rights and even toagree to an enforcement
mechanism for  group rights -- an unlikely proposition.

t.wukitsch

Yes, there are extant military records (e.g. from hospitals etc) for that
period on microfilm at the Mormon church's "Family History Centers" at
their churches in most cities.  Just look up the church phone number and
get the needed address.  The Centers are open to everyone, free, and
very welcoming.  The lists of documents available can be read on
microfiche, then the relevant microfilms ordered from Salt Lake, with a
fee of $2.75 per film and a wait of two weeks or so.  The documents for
now Slovak areas (i.e. those that remained in now Hungarian areas) were
microfilmed in the 1980s, but documents from the now Slovak areas are
also being filmed (the Slovak East was completed apparently in 1991-2)
so you have to look at the microfiche labeled Hungary, Slovakia, and just
to be sure Czechoslovakia.

Good luck.

Norma Rudinsky  


>
> ]Does anyone know a source of military records for the time
> period 1888 through 1894?
>
> I am searching for an enlisted man (not officer), likely a
> conscript from the area of what is now northeast Slovakia
> (Stropokov,  Solnik or Pucahu) very near the Polish border.
>

Sorry if this is a wrong newsgroup for such postings...

I look for a companion to rent an apartmnet together in Budapest from
January, 1996. If you are interested, want to know detailes etc., please
write me directly to:


Anatoly

>arguments that the Hungarian government used seventy years ago. That
>Hungarian propaganda was unsuccessful then and if it remains unaltered it
>will be unsuccessful now.
 The Trianon countries politics about minorities is/was also NOT succesfull.
 So of the ex-Soviet Union's. Many border lines broke up at the ethnic
 borderlines.

>reasonable. One must step back and try to image himself to be the
>non-Hungarian reader: the American, the Western European, the Serbs, the
>Croat, the Slovene (By the way if your want to leave the sentence in, please
>change Wend to Slovene. Foreigners wouldn't have any idea who the Wends
>were.), the Romanian, and the Slovak.
 That is right. Obviously sovinist activity is not a good tactic. But
 the silence is wrong also. "They" may think we do not care.
   For example the Kadar-era politics toward ethnic question was
 excellent in the way that in Hungary there was no sovinist movements.
 Trianon countries politicians just can not imagine that Hungarian
 citisens do not hate them IN HUNGARY. Especially when about 25 years ago when
 we passed Slovakian part of Chehslovakia, our car was spit by Slovakian
 kids at a point, shouting "buta magyar" (meaning "silly Hungarian").
 Probably these were the two words they knew. But the wrong politics
 of Kadar-era was the silent toward the Trianon countries, they did
 not request anything for Hungarians outside of Hungary, they did
 not stand up for anything.
   Also, if you are a historian, can you tell something about the
 Trianon and Paris Treaty? I remember the history class in Hungary
 in elementary school. I was told that besides the Hungarian
 government represenrtatives were not asked, were not allowed to attend,
 because they were arrested, etc., BUT they also WERE asked, but silence
 was a mistake. It was told that a little bit bigger "small Hungary"
 was also a plan by the French, but because the "no respond" and
 because the Trianon countries - of course - opposed, this
 plan was dropped. DOES somebody know about this mistake of
 silence? Because the history books have been faked in meny ways,
 many times.

Dear Joe,

You wrote:

>I'm sorry I missed Endrey's claim of being disinterested politically
>which I certainly would have found strange having known of his present
>and former political leanings and activities.

I agree. However, let me quote again from the article (although it is not the
clearest and best written piece, admittedly):

"Endrey hangsulyozza, hogy politikatol mentes, kozgazdasagi motivumok
vezetik. Ez a feltetele az akcio szakmai es nemzetkozi sikerenek. Mint
mondja--ez szalonkepes, szakmai vallalkozas, amelynek semmi koze semmifele
ideologiahoz."

(I.e., Endrey emphasizes that his motives are entirely free of politics and
rely only on economics. His move has nothing to do with ideology.)

Joe writes:

>Well, I think what we have here is primarily a huge generation gap.

What do you mean? At least you, unlike RK, know darn well how old I am. I
think it is an other kind of gap: he believes in world conspiracies of
freemasons and who knows of whom else and I don't. Never did, never will. And
to tell you the truth I am always amazed when so-called educated people can
belive in such ridiculous notions. My first reaction is to say: how stupid!
Unfortunately, Dr. Endrey doesn't keep his stupidities under lid, he
advertises it not only in Hungary but all over the world. Unfortunately, once
he launches class-action suits in the name of Hungary's inhabitants he is
speaking not only for himself but for all Hungarians. And I find that most
unfortunate.

By the way, Joe, you were right about this suit in Hodmezovasarhely being
different from the suit in Washington. Obviously, I didn't read the article
carefully enough. According to it the Amerikai Magyarok Orszagos Szovetsege
(AMOSZ) is preparing the suits against the World Bank and the IMF. Being
totally unfamiliar with Hungarian emigre organization, I have never heard of
AMOSZ before. I have no idea whom they represent but they certainly don't
represent me. I can also imagine the intellectual caliber of the AMOSZ's
leaders: anyone believing in the conspiracy of freemasons within the World
Bank and IMF must be an intellectual giant!

Eva Balogh

Either RK's writing was not clear or I misread his words, but I certainly
didn't have the sense that RK finds Dr. Endrey a "kook." Just the opposite.
After all, he wanted to know the opinion of older Hungarians on the subject,
as opposed to the younger generation. As if the older generation found him
more acceptable.

RK says:

>I don't know  anything
>about  him  and so  far  what  I  read  here he  looks  like  just
>another  eccentric old  Hungarian  who  went  home  to  retire.

I wish this were the case, but we mustn't forget that Dr. Endrey, with the
help of a Hungarian emigre organization in the United States, is taking
action against the World Bank and the IMF in the capital of the United
States. He is making not only himself ridiculous but also the country whose
citizen he is.

As for doing research on Hungary's current leaders--that has been done, more
or less. Everybody knows that Gyula Horn was part of the workers' militia
after 1956. Everybody knows, too, that Peto's parents served in the AVH or in
an affiliated organization (like the border guards). Did Horn ever apologize
for his deeds? I don't know. But it seems that the Hungarian electorate isn't
bothered by his past. Before the elections he was the second most popular
politician in Hungary. Today's Hungary has a very short memory. As late as
1989 a good third of the population labeled October 1956 a counterrevolution.
In the same year, an overwhelming majority of the population felt that the
best time of the Kadar regime was between 1957 and 1965! So, don't expect
much criticism of the past of the current political leaders. As for the
apologies for the holocaust: I have the feeling that some people would have
objected to Horn's apology even if Gyula Horn apologized for his and his
party's deeds between 1945 and 1990.

Eva Balogh

Dear Joe,

You wrote:

>I'm sorry I missed Endrey's claim of being disinterested politically
>which I certainly would have found strange having known of his present
>and former political leanings and activities.

I agree. However, let me quote again from the article (although it is not the
clearest and best written piece, admittedly):

"Endrey hangsulyozza, hogy politikatol mentes, kozgazdasagi motivumok
vezetik. Ez a feltetele az akcio szakmai es nemzetkozi sikerenek. Mint
mondja--ez szalonkepes, szakmai vallalkozas, amelynek semmi koze semmifele
ideologiahoz."

(I.e., Endrey emphasizes that his motives are entirely free of politics and
rely only on economics. His move has nothing to do with ideology.)

Joe writes:

>Well, I think what we have here is primarily a huge generation gap.

What do you mean? At least you, unlike RK, know darn well how old I am. I
think it is an other kind of gap: he believes in world conspiracies of
freemasons and who knows of whom else and I don't. Never did, never will. And
to tell you the truth I am always amazed when so-called educated people can
believe in such ridiculous notions. My first reaction is to say: how stupid!
Unfortunately, Dr. Endrey doesn't keep his stupidities under lid, he
advertises them not only in Hungary but all over the world. Unfortunately,
once
he launches class-action suits in the name of Hungary's inhabitants he is
speaking not only for himself but for all Hungarians. And I find that most
unfortunate.

By the way, Joe, you were right about this suit in Hodmezovasarhely being
different from the suit in Washington. Obviously, I didn't read the article
carefully enough. According to it the Amerikai Magyarok Orszagos Szovetsege
(AMOSZ) is preparing the suits against the World Bank and the IMF. Being
totally unfamiliar with Hungarian emigre organizations, I have never heard of
the AMOSZ before. I have no idea whom they represent but they certainly don't
represent me. I can also imagine the intellectual caliber of the AMOSZ's
leaders: anyone believing in the conspiracy of freemasons within the World
Bank and IMF must be an intellectual giant!

Eva Balogh

Here is an article from today's *New York Times* (Business section, p. 1) on
Hungarian privatization. I am sure that the readers of Hungary will find it
interesting.

By NATHANIEL C. NASH

c.1995 N.Y. Times News Service

BUDAPEST, Hungary - It has been hard lately to take privatization in Eastern
Europe seriously. Just look at the case of Hungary over the last year.

When foreign investors seemed to have locked up a deal to buy a dairy, the
purchase was scotched in favor of a lower offer by a local farming
cooperative. ``Very important political reasons'' were cited.

Last December, when a Dallas hotel company was on the verge of buying the
Hungar Hotels chain, Prime Minister Gyula Horn stopped the deal and ordered
an investigation that led to the dismissal of the privatization commissioner.


But now, there seems to have been a reversal. After more than two years of
bumbling along, Hungary has put up for sale the crown jewels - its oil
company, its electricity- and gas-distribution industry, its major banks and
a second stock installment in the state telephone company, Matav. (A
consortium of Deutsche Telekom and Ameritech already owns a 30 percent
stake.)

Global players in oil and gas, electricity and telecommunications are
knocking on Hungary's door, apparently convinced that the country is at last
getting serious about privatizing its largest companies.

The government has hired investment bankers, including CS First Boston,
Kleinwort Benson, Merrill Lynch and Deutsche Bank to market the companies and
hopes to raise nearly $2 billion in coming months.

``The interest in privatizations here is very strong,'' said Sunil Sabharwal,
head of the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development in Budapest.
``That is quite obvious by the number of major companies that are looking at
MOL,'' referring to Hungary's state oil and gas company, which plans to sell
stock beginning in mid-November.

Indeed, bankers predict that over the next year, more money could be poured
into privatizations in Eastern Europe by foreign investors than in all the
previous years combined.

In July, the Czech Republic raised $1.45 billion for a stake in its state
telephone company bought by a consortium led by Koninklijke PTT of the
Netherlands that included Swiss Telecom and AT&T.

The government also recently completed the sale of a 49 percent stake in two
of its largest refineries, Kralupy and Litvinov, to a consortium of Royal
Dutch/Shell; Conoco of the United States, a unit of Du Pont, and AGIP of
Italy for $180 million, plus a promise to invest $520 million more over five
years.

And it is also getting ready to privatize its steel, mining, electricity and
chemical industries later next year.

In Poland, where very few of the major state-owned enterprises have been sold
to private investors, the government is taking the first serious steps,
Western bankers say. It recently set up a system under which 14 investment
funds, with heavy representation of foreign capital and managers, will
control about 400 state-owned companies.

In Hungary, polls show that the public is opposed to the selloffs, but the
government seems to have little choice. It is burdened with almost $22
billion in debt and is running big budget deficits. Selling state assets is
one way to get bloated numbers of employees off public payrolls and repay
some of the debt.

The sale of the 30 percent stake in MOL will represent the first time an oil
company in Eastern Europe has gone on the block and one of the few times any
government has offered to sell its national oil company.

MOL has several advantages. One is its sheer size. It dominates the economy,
accounting for 90 percent of the nation's oil and gas production, refining
and reserves.

It is a fully integrated energy company, engaged in everything from
exploration to importing natural gas from Russia, refining crude oil and
operating a chain of gas stations.

And its Duna oil refinery south of Budapest is considered ``among the most
sophisticated units in the Central and East European region,'' according to a
recent report by Nomura Securities in London.

The same report estimated that the oil and gas reserves of MOL were worth
$1.8 billion, greater than its current market value of $1 billion. (The
government currently owns 88 percent of MOL, while municipalities own 7
percent and individual investors have 5 percent.)

The global public offering that Merrill Lynch and Kleinwort Benson are
planning in November is expected to bring in at least $300 million for the 30
percent stake.

But hopes for a smooth sale were nearly dashed on Sept. 12, when the
government dismissed two top executives at the company and replaced them with
Lazlo Pal, a hard-line Socialist who is a leader of the far-left faction of
the Socialist Party, the renamed Communists. A Russian-trained engineer with
no experience in the oil business, he was dismissed as trade minister in June
for opposing the privatization program.

In particular, he has opposed passing management control of strategic
industries to foreign companies.

``I just don't know what the government was thinking,'' said a prominent
investment banker, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. ``How are you
going to parade such a man before the international investment community in a
credible way?''

Officials, though, were quick to defend Pal.

``We felt MOL needs a more dynamic personality at the head to get the
privatization going,'' said Tamas Suchman, the minister for privatization.

And Pal issued a statement saying he fully embraced the government's
privatization plan.

In the end, the appointment was seen as an attempt by the prime minister to
give Pal a visible appointment and blunt any political interference he might
create.

But it did not make investors feel any more comfortable about attempts to
persuade them that now was the time to buy into Hungary, especially since the
government has apparently scrapped plans to let a large energy company buy a
controlling interest in MOL.

``Several American oil companies were interested in buying MOL,'' Peter Fath,
executive director of the American Chamber of Commerce, told a local
newspaper in Budapest. ``Their top executives made repeated visits to
Hungary, and Prime Minister Horn promised at the time that MOL would be
available for strategic investors. He changed his mind. And now Mr. Pal is at
the head of MOL.''<


Thus ends the article.

Eva Balogh

Hi, all.  I'm looking for specifics on three clubs in Budapest, as I've
posted below.  Hope you can help.  If you can, please e-mail any answers
and suggestions to my INTERNET address:  >  Thanks a bunch,
and please get back to me, if possible, by Friday, October 20th, a.m.

There's a place called Fortuna Disco (in the fortress, whose name I've
forgotten, in Buda), but none of my guide books list it as a place to go.
 I need specifics about it for my story, such as its address, phone
number and days and hours of operation. And the name of the Fortress.
Also, who goes there (ages, professions, % male/female, etc.) and what
kinds of music do they play -- 70s American disco, European techno-pop,
etc.

One of my guide books DOES mention Mine Made Inn, but doesn't give me
enough info. Is one of this place's appeal the fact that you can go
outside and sit when it gets too crowded and hot inside?  Again, who goes
there (ages, professions, % male/female, etc.) and what kinds of music do
they play -- 70s American disco, European techno-pop, etc.  What kinds of
drinks are served as well?  And when you sit outside, are you sitting at
cafe tables, an outside bar, is it located in a courtyard or back out on
the street?  (I wish I'd gone there during my trip to Budapest two years
ago so I wouldn't have to ask you for all these annoying details.)

The Hully Gully Disco has go-go girls who dance WITH customers or on
pillars or something?  How do they interact with other people in the club?
  Sorry to bore you with repeated questions, but who goes there (ages,
professions, % male/female, etc.) and what kinds of music do they play --
70s American disco, European techno-pop, etc.  Also, besides the dancers,
is there anything else notable about the place?

Thanks a lot, and any additional club suggestions (with all the requisite
details) would be appreciated.

Leah

Hallo,

I'm in Debrecen from 07.Nov.95 till 13.Nov.95 working as a guest
at the ATOMKI. I'm a 37 years old scientist and I'm looking for a
guide, who speaks either german or english and shows me your town in the late
afternoon or evening.
I was 2 years ago in Debrecen for only one week and found it difficult
because i didn't understand one word of the hungarian language.

If you ( perhaps a student between 25 and 35 years) has time accompanying
me in this time please contact me. I'm insterested in looking shops,
dancing, swimming, meeting people....

best regards

Bernhard


Dr. Bernhard Scholten,             Institut fuer Nuklearchemie (INC),
Forschungszentrum Juelich GmbH,    52425 Juelich,            Germany
Tel.: ++49-2461-612589    Fax.: ++49-2461-2535
E-Mail:      or      

Eva Balogh writes:

>>After all, the goal is to wage a
>>"successful" propaganda campaign. One which !!all!! readers would find
>>absolutely reasonable.

I might be hair splitting, but the word "all" should not be used in
the above sentence. Surely if you do a propaganda campaing, you can
consider yourself successfull if more than half the people agree with you.
But even if you disagree with the above statement, You cannot please
!!all!! the people, unless you give up everything.

>>But we must be reasonable too in order to have a meaningful dialogue.

True, but how do we decide what is reasonable? A reasonable request for me
can be a nationalistic harangue to someone else. If the majority
of americans agree with my propaganda, I am satisfied.

Sandor

I am surprised how much time Bela Liptak devote to history.Being a P.Eng.he
is entangled in a subject,which sould be argued by historians!What I would
like to hear from Bela is a positive message to Hungarians,on what the people
of Hungary can accomplish as partners of EU.My critical explanations for this
is,that the Hungarian Government lacks a strategic vision for Hungary's
future, aside from deficit reduction,a necessary goal,but by itself an insu-
fficient one to take us into the 21st.century. The Horn government lacks a
program for future prosperity,based on good jobs and high productivity,that
in turn provide the resources for healty communities and a high quality of
life. But somehow we have lost the sense of excitement or potencial for
Hungary's future.Historiens can't provide this for us,but Bela Liptak can!
Toth Laci

One more thing about Dr. Endrey. His connections with the extreme,
anti-semitic right are much more extensive than his living near Aron Monus in
Hodmezovasarhely. He had a hand in getting Jozsef Szendi, a well known Nazi
responsible for the death of thousands of Hungarian Jews, out of the United
States and into Hungary. It seems that Szendi was in serious trouble in the
United States as a result of his wartime activities. After Szendi's arrival
in Hungary, Endrey was not only Szendi's defense lawyer (in connection with
his published memoirs: Csendorsors) but also his host in Hodmezovasarhely.
One could, of course, answer all this by saying that an accused is entitled
to a lawyer but given Endrey's help of getting Szendi out of the United
States and offering him his own home in Hungary lead me to believe that their
relationship was more than the kind which normally exists between lawyer and
client.

Eva Balogh

Dear Colleagues,

I have two reasons for writing:

The first is that I would like to apologize to Gabor Fencsik for misspelling
his name. I am very sorry for that.

The second reason is, that  during the next couple of weeks, I plan to share
with you my recollections of the events of my days of 39 years ago. I will
try to tell you, as accurately, as I can, about my life during those glorious
days, so that you (the next generation) might get a sense of that miracle,
which we experienced and which changed us for life.

I will send you daily segments, and I will try to get the material to you on
the same day, as they occured 39 years ago. In order to give you a glimpse of
my life prior to the Revolution also, I will start by also describing my last
"regular" day before the Revolution.

So this was just an "early warning" and explanation of the daily segments of
a bigraphy, that you are going to see in your mailbox for a couple of weeks.

Bela Liptak

>re comments by Kadar Gyorgy:
>Many commentators agree that the lack of recognition of group rights has for
> some
>time been a crucial ommission in international law.  But what is really
lacking

Would someone care to define group as opposed to say the set of people who
dislike eating raw fish?

I would have thought that groups such as religious institutions, corporate
bodies, political parties &c&c are legally recognized entities distinct from
both individuals and the state. They do enjoy protection under certain
conditions such as proper constitution, accountability &c&c.

Arbitrary sets on the other hand neither seek nor deserve protection. The
privilege of protection must somehow be deserved by all other than
individuals. That, I would think, is a fundamental difference.

The mere identifiability of a group (ethnically or otherwise) is simply not
sufficient for the enjoyment of such a scarce commodity as protection.



-------------------------------------
Name: tiha von ghyczy
E-mail: 
Date: 10/17/95
Charlottesville, Va.
-------------------------------------

Eva:

>"Endrey hangsulyozza, hogy politikatol mentes, kozgazdasagi motivumok
>vezetik. Ez a feltetele az akcio szakmai es nemzetkozi sikerenek. Mint
>mondja--ez szalonkepes, szakmai vallalkozas, amelynek semmi koze semmifele
>ideologiahoz."
>(I.e., Endrey emphasizes that his motives are entirely free of politics and
>rely only on economics. His move has nothing to do with ideology.)

Well, of course his politics has to do with this law suit but I can
imagine such a law suit having merit regardless of his politics.  It's
another question whether I believe he can win or not.

>>Well, I think what we have here is primarily a huge generation gap.
>
>What do you mean? At least you, unlike RK, know darn well how old I am. I

Oops!  I think you thoroughly misunderstood this one.  I was talking
about Endrey's generation gap, not yours.  I think you know that for
Endrey's generation which grew up in the era of "Nem, nem, soha!",
patriotism means a different thing than for generations growing up
later.

>think it is an other kind of gap: he believes in world conspiracies of
>freemasons and who knows of whom else and I don't. Never did, never will. And

Well, I don't know what to believe.  I just know that you cannot prove
your position any more than he can his on that one.  But I must admit that
I often wonder what are serious and influential adults doing in secret
societies and often parading in funny costums. ;-)

>Unfortunately, Dr. Endrey doesn't keep his stupidities under lid, he
>advertises it not only in Hungary but all over the world. Unfortunately, once
>he launches class-action suits in the name of Hungary's inhabitants he is
>speaking not only for himself but for all Hungarians. And I find that most
>unfortunate.

Wasn't it Zsazsa who said that even bad publicity is better than no
publicity?

> According to it the Amerikai Magyarok Orszagos Szovetsege
>(AMOSZ) is preparing the suits against the World Bank and the IMF. Being
>totally unfamiliar with Hungarian emigre organization, I have never heard of
>AMOSZ before. I have no idea whom they represent but they certainly don't
>represent me.

I'm sure they wouldn't think of it.  Actually, AMOSZ is one of the
oldest and most active Hungarian lobbying organizations in the US, but
you would not know about them without reading the publications of the
so called "nemzeti emigracio".

" I can also imagine the intellectual caliber of the AMOSZ's
>leaders: anyone believing in the conspiracy of freemasons within the World
>Bank and IMF must be an intellectual giant!

Don't rush to judgement because not all of them wake up sleepless
thinking about the Masons.  I think some of the most selfless Hungarians
can be found among the older (DP) wave of immigrants.  When it comes to
a Hungarian cause, these people are far more likely to reach for their
check book or volunteering than any later wave.  We may not always agree
with their tactics, but they could almost always ask the rest of us with
credibility: "What have YOU done for Hungary lately?"

Joe Pannon

Eva:

>One could, of course, answer all this by saying that an accused is entitled
>to a lawyer

Right.

> but given Endrey's help of getting Szendi out of the United
>States and offering him his own home in Hungary lead me to believe that their
>relationship was more than the kind which normally exists between lawyer and
>client.

Just what do you know about this Szendi guy?  I haven't read his book,
but I certainly would not jump condemning him based on what some
organizations (looking for former Nazies under every bed) allege about
him.  The Ivan Demianuk case should have thought us that much!
But then, I admit my bias in this, considering how little interest there
is in hunting down the more recent criminals of a different color.

Joe Pannon

According to Norma Rudinsky:
>
> Yes, there are extant military records (e.g. from hospitals etc) for that
> period on microfilm at the Mormon church's "Family History Centers" at
> their churches in most cities.  Just look up the church phone number and
> get the needed address.  The Centers are open to everyone, free, and
> very welcoming.  The lists of documents available can be read on
> microfiche, then the relevant microfilms ordered from Salt Lake, with a
> fee of $2.75 per film and a wait of two weeks or so.  The documents for
> now Slovak areas (i.e. those that remained in now Hungarian areas) were
> microfilmed in the 1980s, but documents from the now Slovak areas are
> also being filmed (the Slovak East was completed apparently in 1991-2)
> so you have to look at the microfiche labeled Hungary, Slovakia, and just
> to be sure Czechoslovakia.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Norma Rudinsky  
Dear Norma,


Thank You Very Much

Jack and Chris Gergely
>
> >
> > ]Does anyone know a source of military records for the time
> > period 1888 through 1894?
> >
> > I am searching for an enlisted man (not officer), likely a
> > conscript from the area of what is now northeast Slovakia
> > (Stropokov,  Solnik or Pucahu) very near the Polish border.
> >
>