At 08:39 AM 3/6/97 -0800, Istvan L. Szabolcsy wrote:

<snip>
>   I should mention here, that this health care system was fought for by the
>New Democratic Party (a socialist party now in power in B.C.), and no
>federal governments of any stripes dare to change it.
>   I think the conclusion is self evident. Hungary should have a Canadian
>style health care system. Period.
>                                       Istvan L. Szabolcsy

I agree with you Istvan.

Hungarians shouldn't be bamboozled into thinking that a free market economy
means that they can't have good social programmes such as health care and
pensions.  Yes, adjustments must be made in Hungary.  However, the question
is; who will pay for it?

By the way, members of the New Democratic Party (NDP) call themselves
'social democrats' or 'democratic socialists' and not 'socialist' because
that name causes unnecessary confusion in the public imagination.

Yesterday, those idiots in the Conservative government in Ontario announced
the closure of 10 hospitals in Toronto.  They're doing this because they
promised people a 30 per cent reduction in taxes and because the federal
Liberal government is giving the provinces less money through the transfer
payments.  The conclusion for me is obvious.  I'm voting for the NDP in the
federal election this year.

Joe Szalai

MEGHIVO
A WASHINGTONI AMERIKAI MAGYAR SZOVETSEG

az 1848/49-es szabadsagharc emlekunnepelyet

1997. marcius 16-an d.u. 3:00 orakor
rendezi

az American University Kay Spiritual Centereben

Massachusetts and Nebraska Avenues
Washington, DC

MUsor
Unnepi megnyito
        Nt. Bertalan Imre
Amerikai es magyar himnusz
        enekli az unneplo kozonseg
Koszonto
        Banlaki Gyorgy, a Magyar Koztarsasag Washingtoni Nagykovete
"Restoring national consciousness"
        ifj. Koszorus Ferenc
Zongora szolo
        Volker Gabor
"Nepdal csokor es szavalatok"
        Eloadja a 4-es szamu Batori Jozsef cserkeszcsapat
Unnepi beszed
        Kerek-Barczy Szabolcs
"Nemzeti Dal"
        Zoltani Zsombor
Zaroszavak
        Zalotay Jozsef, Magyar Katolikus Lelkesz
A musort vezeti Dr. Wood Maria
Adomanyokat a musorunkkal kapcsolatos kiadasok fedezesere koszonettel fogadunk

Istvan Szabolcsy:
>
As I am
>self-employed, I pay an insurance fee of Cdn$32.00 per month to the B.C.
>Medical Service Plan. This fee is the same for everyone, regardless of
>health risks, and the insurance can not be refused.

Istvan, it is an impossibility that you can run a national health care
system on $32.00/person/month!! As far as I know the percentage of GDP spent
on health care in Canada is even higher than in the United States and if I
recall properly it is 13% (incredibly high) in the United States. There is
no way that it amounts to $32.00/person/month for a self-employed person. I
will do a little research on this.

        Second, at the end of the letter you suggest that Hungary should
adopt the Canadian system, that is, I assume, national health insurance. But
Hungary already has a national health insurance, except it cost them a
little more than $32.00/month! More like half their salaries. And yet it is
lousy.

        Eva Balogh

At 07:35 AM 3/7/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 08:39 AM 3/6/97 -0800, Istvan L. Szabolcsy wrote:
>
><snip>
>>   I should mention here, that this health care system was fought for by the
>>New Democratic Party (a socialist party now in power in B.C.), and no
>>federal governments of any stripes dare to change it.
>>   I think the conclusion is self evident. Hungary should have a Canadian
>>style health care system. Period.
>>                                       Istvan L. Szabolcsy
>
>I agree with you Istvan.
>
>Hungarians shouldn't be bamboozled into thinking that a free market economy
>means that they can't have good social programmes such as health care and
>pensions.  Yes, adjustments must be made in Hungary.  However, the question
>is; who will pay for it?
>
>By the way, members of the New Democratic Party (NDP) call themselves
>'social democrats' or 'democratic socialists' and not 'socialist' because
>that name causes unnecessary confusion in the public imagination.
>
>Yesterday, those idiots in the Conservative government in Ontario announced
>the closure of 10 hospitals in Toronto.  They're doing this because they
>promised people a 30 per cent reduction in taxes and because the federal
>Liberal government is giving the provinces less money through the transfer
>payments.  The conclusion for me is obvious.  I'm voting for the NDP in the
>federal election this year.
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>JoE:as a fellow ontarrian,and liberal,We have to look sensibly at these
closing.
It is impossible to have so many hospitals,wich are virtualy giving the same
services.There is tremendous overhead,and with fewer hospitals,lets hope we
will still have the same services.
I would rather point the fingers at the hospitals themselves who believed we
can afford this for ever.There is less and less mony,not only because of the
30%tax cut.
My wife is an RN,at Mount Sianai hospital.One of the finest,and best.(not
because she workes there),but there thinking is patient care.
Lets be reasonable,and lets see realy what will happen.For a change I have
to agree with the Comission,whose job was,to cut,but at the same time,ensure
the best care possible.
Lets hope so Joe.
Andy.

Once again I'm trying to determine whether something is going on or not. I
haven't received anything from this list in two or three days. Hope
everyone is doing well.
Sam Stowe

"Taniwha is waiting for me
just below the surface of life..."
-- Split Enz

At 12:46 PM 3/7/97 -0500, Eva Balogh, responding to Istvan Szabolcsy, wrote:

<snip>
>There is no way that it amounts to $32.00/person/month for a self-employed
>person. I will do a little research on this.

I don't know what percentage of the GDP is spent on health care in Canada.
However, I'm sure it's lower than the American.  It would be good if you did
a little research on this and I hope you compare apples to apples.  In other
words, figure out how much it would cost in the US if everyone was insured
equally, as they are in Canada.  If you don't do that then your stats are
meaningless.

>        Second, at the end of the letter you suggest that Hungary should
>adopt the Canadian system, that is, I assume, national health insurance. But
>Hungary already has a national health insurance, except it cost them a
>little more than $32.00/month! More like half their salaries. And yet it is
>lousy.

And your solution would be even lousier.  I have no doubt that you favour an
American style system where those with money can pay for good care and those
with little or no money can get whatever dregs they can.  The only problem
with this is, and it's a big problem, is that we're talking not just about
the economy, but about people's lives.

Joe Szalai

Stowewrite wrote:
>
> Once again I'm trying to determine whether something is going on or not. I
> haven't received anything from this list in two or three days. Hope
> everyone is doing well.
> Sam Stowe
>
> "Taniwha is waiting for me
> just below the surface of life..."
> -- Split Enz

Sam,
there was "noise" on the list. ( e.g. Eva at 12:46:28 EST
on the "Health Care List" - yes, Eva, will give some info
on the German Health System. Came back late nignt from Debrecen,
not Kiskoeroes :-) )
Your message didn4t come thru the the T-Online Mail ( my normal
provider, where the messages from the List normally arrive ) but
on a sepatare channel via Netscape. Here I do answer, too. Have no
explanation. Did they put you in quarantine?
Miklos

At 09:31 AM 3/8/97 -0500, Joe Szalai, true to form, wrote:

>And your solution would be even lousier.  I have no doubt that you favour an
>American style system where those with money can pay for good care and those
>with little or no money can get whatever dregs they can.  The only problem
>with this is, and it's a big problem, is that we're talking not just about
>the economy, but about people's lives.

        Entirely wrong. I am a vocal critic of the American system and I
wanted the Clinton reform four years ago to suceed very badly. But it was
torpedoes by the insurance companies and doctors. Unfortunately I am coming
to the conclusion that there is no such thing as a really good system.

        I friend of mine who is a dentist in Germany tells me that the
German system is very good and reasonably cost effective. I will ask her to
outline the system to me, because I am afraid that the British/Canadian
system *in the long run* doesn't offer optimum health care. (It is still too
early about the Canadian system but the British system which has been in
effect for a long time is on its last leg.)

        In any case, the Hungarian system is unbelievable bad. It is enough
to look at the statistics. Most people who are by now old enough to be
pensioners and who live in Canada or in the United States would like to
retire in Hungary, except the health care. Just when you need it most.

        Eva Balogh

Dies ist eine mehrteilige Nachricht im MIME-Format.

--------------108F25F84CAD
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Sam, it was March 8.
Miklss

--------------108F25F84CAD
Content-Type: message/rfc822
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Content-Disposition: inline

Message-ID: >
Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 16:39:00 +0100
From: "Miklos K. Hoffmann" >
Reply-To: Am, Hang, 11, D24794, Borgstedt
Organization: Hoffmann&Hoffmann
X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 DT [de]C (Win95; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Hungarian Discussion List >
Subject: Re: Testing
References: >
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Stowewrite wrote:
>
> Once again I'm trying to determine whether something is going on or not. I
> haven't received anything from this list in two or three days. Hope
> everyone is doing well.
> Sam Stowe
>
> "Taniwha is waiting for me
> just below the surface of life..."
> -- Split Enz

Sam,
there was "noise" on the list. ( e.g. Eva at 12:46:28 EST
on the "Health Care List" - yes, Eva, will give some info
on the German Health System. Came back late nignt from Debrecen,
not Kiskoeroes :-) )
Your message didn4t come thru the the T-Online Mail ( my normal
provider, where the messages from the List normally arrive ) but
on a sepatare channel via Netscape. Here I do answer, too. Have no
explanation. Did they put you in quarantine?
Miklos

--------------108F25F84CAD--

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that American
support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral part of
American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to write deserve
our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the prime task of the
Hungarian Lobby.

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective human
rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send them out
every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your acquaintances who care
about human rights.
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is applicable
for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American citizens. 

  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
    

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE:  Support for Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed to
protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical responsibility
of leading in the development of international standards which will
protect the collective human rights of all indigenous minority groups. 

We must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just as we
led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the individual
human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from those of the
individual because such basic rights as the use of one's language can only
be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.  There are no melting
pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The alternative to cultural autonomy
is mass graves and cultural genocide. 

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to intervene
in Europe three times. The only way to permanently eliminate the need for
sending our troops on similar missions in the future is to eliminate the
cause of these conflicts. This should be done by uniformly satisfying the
aspirations of all indigenous minority groups. If, as the President of the
United States, you would make the defense of collective human rights and
cultural autonomy a cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would
permanently eliminate the need for our GIs to get entangled in future
European conflicts. 

As a member of the 1.58 million-member community of Hungarian-Americans, I
ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all indigenous national
minorities of Central Europe an integral part of your foreign policy. 

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc:  Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed to
protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical responsibility
of leading in the development of international standards which will
protect the collective human rights of all indigenous minority groups. 

The USA must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just as
you led during the Second World War when you decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from those of
the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's language can
only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.  There are no
melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The alternative to cultural
autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide. 

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to intervene
in Europe three times. The only way to permanently eliminate the need for
sending your troops on similar missions in the future is to eliminate the
cause of these conflicts. This should be done by uniformly satisfying the
aspirations of all indigenous minority groups. If, as the President of the
United States, you would make the defense of collective human rights and
cultural autonomy a cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would
permanently eliminate the need for your GIs to get entangled in future
European conflicts. 

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all
indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part of your
foreign policy. 

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that American
support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral part of
American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to write deserve
our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the prime task of the
Hungarian Lobby.

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective human
rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send them out
every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your acquaintances who care
about human rights.
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is applicable
for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American citizens.

  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
   

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE:  Support for Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed to
protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical responsibility
of leading in the development of international standards which will
protect the collective human rights of all indigenous minority groups.

We must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just as we
led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the individual
human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from those of the
individual because such basic rights as the use of one's language can only
be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.  There are no melting
pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The alternative to cultural autonomy
is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to intervene
in Europe three times. The only way to permanently eliminate the need for
sending our troops on similar missions in the future is to eliminate the
cause of these conflicts. This should be done by uniformly satisfying the
aspirations of all indigenous minority groups. If, as the President of the
United States, you would make the defense of collective human rights and
cultural autonomy a cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would
permanently eliminate the need for our GIs to get entangled in future
European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million-member community of Hungarian-Americans, I
ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all indigenous national
minorities of Central Europe an integral part of your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc:  Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed to
protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical responsibility
of leading in the development of international standards which will
protect the collective human rights of all indigenous minority groups.

The USA must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just as
you led during the Second World War when you decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from those of
the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's language can
only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.  There are no
melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The alternative to cultural
autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to intervene
in Europe three times. The only way to permanently eliminate the need for
sending your troops on similar missions in the future is to eliminate the
cause of these conflicts. This should be done by uniformly satisfying the
aspirations of all indigenous minority groups. If, as the President of the
United States, you would make the defense of collective human rights and
cultural autonomy a cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would
permanently eliminate the need for your GIs to get entangled in future
European conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all
indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part of your
foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________

Istvan Szabolcsy writes:

>   Dear Readers:
>
>   Unless you are Republican, you probably agree with Senator Ted Kennedy, tha
t
>the U.S. should have a health care system like that of Canada.

Sorry but I am a republican and the last thing I need is the canadian health
insurance system.

>   If you are rich, have shares of insurance and pharmaceutical companies,
>hospitals, etc., and believe to be healthy at this moment, then you would
>probably favor the monopol-capitalistic private health care system of the U.S.

I am looking at the payslip from one of my jobs which indicates that health
insurance is in fact cheap in the US.

FICA (Social Security) 313.49
Federal tax          1,030.21
State tax              395.89
City tax                68.54
Health Ins              56.00

So I am paying more in city income tax than my cost of the health insurance.
Granted the company I work for pays 80% of the health insurance, but it
includes dental, drugs, glasses etc. for myself and the the family. I have
to pay additionally $3 for each prescription and $10 for each doctors visit.
It has a copay deductible which cannot exceed $ 1,000.00/year.
It includes major medical also and $20,000 life insurance. It is valid all
over the world. Since my arrival in the US I never managed to get to a point
that medical expenses could have been deducted from federal income tax.

>   Also, if you are a lawyer, as someone said, suing doctors for a living. I'v
e
>read somewhere that one third of the world's lawyers are in the United States.

Lets not bring lawyers into the picture. I know they add to the health care
costs but that is another issue.

Regards,Jeliko

>Yesterday, those idiots in the Conservative government in Ontario
announced
>the closure of 10 hospitals in Toronto.  They're doing this because they
>promised people a 30 per cent reduction in taxes and because the federal
>Liberal government is giving the provinces less money through the
transfer
>payments.  The conclusion for me is obvious.  I'm voting for the NDP in
the
>federal election this year.
>
>Joe Szalai


I would like to point out here that Saskatchewan has an NDP government
and they also closed a lot of hospitals.  And when we had an NDP
government in Ontario, Bob Ray also realized that he can do just so much
with a certain amount of money.  Incidentally, I never voted NDP, but I
think the social contract was a brilliant idea and I don't understand the
unions why they fought it.  Did they think they would get more from
conservative government?

Agnes

Lectoris Salutem!

        Today in the Congress Room of the Hungarian Parlament a scientific
memorial conference was held on the occasion of the 40th anniversary of
the death of count Janos Esterhazy.
        The conference was presided by Maria Korodi, vice-president of
the Parlament. Historians of the Roland Eotvos University presented their
lectures: Sandor Balogh on Esterhazy's life
        Jeno Gergely on the christian-social movement in Czechoslovakia
           between the two World Wars and Esterhazy's role in it
        Lajos Izsak on the Benes-decrees after WW II
    Then Imre Molnar, author of a new Esterhazy bibliography spoke about
the effect of Esterhazy's case after his death
        Finally countess Alice Malfatti-Esterhazy spoke about the devotion
of his father (inherited to his daughter - kgy) to the Hungarian-Slovak
and more generally to the Central-European political conciliation and
common cultural, social and economic destiny.

        On 9 March, Sunday at 10.30 a wreath-laying ceremony will take
place at the memorial of Esterhazy which is on the wall of his Budapest
residence, Budapest, V. Szep utca 3.
        At 11.30 of the same day in the House of Magyars (several blocks
distance), Budapest, V. Semmelweis utca 1-3 a cultural memorial meeting
will be held with several choir-music pieces performed by ensembles
arriving from Komarom, Szepsi and Janok, and with a memorial lecture of
Miklos Duray. The Esterhazy plaquettes of 1997 will be awarded in this
meeting. Esterhazy's daughter, countess Alice Malfatti-Esterhazy will be
the high patron of the event.

        Janos Esterhazy (1901-1957) was an aristocrat of the Hungarian
Highlands (Felvidek) until 1920, when he found himself in the new Republic
of Czechoslovakia as a consequence of WW I and the Trianon Peace Treaty.
He became the natural leader of the Hungarian minority, and together with
Slovak political forces they demanded the autonomy of Slovensko and
Rusinsko against the centralizing policy of Prague. He was the president
of the political party formed by Hungarians with a christian-social
ideological platform. With the strenghtening of German influence in
Central-Europe he raised his voice against the nazism from the platform
of christianity. In one of his writings he declared that he preferred not
to have any revision of the Trianon Treaty if revision could be reached
only by the aggressive force of a war. When the Highlands were
returned (temporarily) to Hungary Esterhazy stayed in Slovakia and in the
parlament of Tyso-Slovakia he was the single one and only one MP, who
voted against the approval of the law for deportation of Jewish citizens.
He was not allowed to argue in the Parlament, but in the press he
explained, that differentiation between human beings was incompatible with
christian spirit.
        After the war he was taken to the Soviet Gulags (Solzhenitsin
mentions him as a cell-mate) and the Czechoslovakian national-communist
regime in his absence sentenced him to death in 1947 (during the same
period when the Benes-decree deprived the Hungarian population of
Slovakia from their citizenship for three years). He was taken back to
Czechoslovakia in 1957, and he died 40 years ago. His family could never
learn the place of his burial, it has never been allowed to bury him with
dignity - "ot illendoen eltemetni".

        Istenvelunk...                  kadargyorgy

        PS: a mai szervezes csapnivaloan es szegyenletesen rossz volt
(Min.Eln.Hiv., HTMH), a meghivo a parlamenti kepviselokhoz valoszinuleg
nem erkezett meg, mert egy (egyetlen egy) sem volt jelen, kiveve Korodi
Mariat, sem az egyhazak, sem a partok nem tudtak az emlekulesrol. Igy
szinte tulsagosan is bensosegesre sikerult, a kb. 300-as befogadokepessegu
felsohazi ulesteremben kb. 60-80-an voltunk.