In article >,  
says...
>George Szaszvari wrote:
>> Okay, let's call it Cluj (er, when I was there in '82 it was officially
>> Cluj-Napoca, however nutty, for Romanian language speakers and Koloszvar
>> for the Hungarian language speakers.) Webster doesn't prove anything...
>> it had to use a name of some sort to describe the place and the current
>> *official* Romanian name as used by the Romanian 
>>administration/bureaucracy
>> is Cluj, fair enough; I don't mind calling it Cluj, when speaking 
>>directly to Romanians, but why should Mr Lutas (who so often tried to 
>>persuade me on these ngs that he is for harmonious Romanian-Hungarian 
>>co-existence in Transylvania) take someone to task for calling it 
>>Kolozsvar if that person's connection is with the Hungarian speakers 
>>there? Mr Lutas' indignation would be just as absurd as if a Walloon 
>>took a Fleming to task for calling Bruxelles *Brussel*!

> Nope. The point is that the message was in English. If one uses English
>language, one should use the English name (if any). 

Bingo! 

I addressed this English message point already. Okay, I'll explain it 
more simply for you. As a born and bred Briton (albeit with Hungarian 
ancestry) who is more familiar with SE Europe than most over here, I use 
Kolozsvar and Cluj interchangeably. There is an official administrative 
name used (Cluj) by the Romanian powers that be to the exclusion of any 
other usage (unlike, say, Belgium, where recognition is given to three 
national languages and varieties of place name usages.) The postings from 
Romanians so far on this point seem to be in love with the idea that a 
stroke of the bureaucratic Romanian pen justifies their claim that this 
also constitutes the official English usage too. It doesn't in my 
experience (sorry to disappoint you.) English language newspapers, books, 
reports, etc, use *Kolozsvar*, if that is more germane to the context, 
never mind what Romanian speakers might insist on these days. English 
is also an extremely flexible language that allows different usages and 
incorporates native foreign language place names, depending on one's 
education, ethnicity, background, etc. The original native language 
spelling/usage of a place name is just as valid, usually, in English, as 
any Anglicized version.

So the chap who made the original posting using Kolozsvar was not 
incorrect, as you Romanians seem to so desperately want to convince
yourselves. It is insidious to argue, as Lutas and his defenders do, 
against the use of Kolozsvar. In Britain such an attitude would be 
thought of as fascist.

[snip...none too soon]..
> [Another example: in Romanian and in Italian, one calls the capital of 
>Italy "Roma", however I will refer to it as "Rome" in an English text (and
>"Rom" in a German one); an Italian guy should do the same. I won't 
>continue, I hope I made my point enough clear.]

FYI I've lived and worked in five different European countries (outside 
Britain)....now, take your cue....

>> As said before, the comparison with the New Amsterdam/New York name 
>change is not similar to our case. 

So why aren't you addressing Mr Lutas with this reply? After all, you are 
agreeing with my criticism of the comparison, aren't you? Lutas was the 
one who made the ridiculous New Amsterdam comparison. Or isn't that obvious
to you?

> Please, don't get so fast to radical conclusions. You might be wrong.

Thank you ever so much. Ever thought of taking your own advice? It might 
have saved you making this largely pointless (and sadly mis-directed) 
posting of yours.

Regards, 
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 *** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list! Global service ***

In article >,  says...
>
>On 21 May 1996 19:13:02 GMT  (George Szaszvari),
>pissed off  wrote:
>
>>Please remember that to Hungarian speakers it remains Kolozsvar and if any
>
>Personally I think nobody denied that.
>
>I just think you didn't realize that his(their) point
>was this :

I don't think you realize very much of anything at all.

>The name Kolozsvar was used in an English text,
>where, supposedly, 

Supposedly, huh?

>one uses official names.

>While I think 

Does it make your brain hurt?

>it could have become an issue if used in
>an official text or statement, given the circumstances
>the whole thing looks like a storm in a water glass.

It was made an issue by your compatriot Mr Lutas. I don't 
see any Romanians on these ngs addressing him on the point.

>Including this sample :

Bye bye :-)
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 *** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list! Global service ***

On Mon, 20 May 1996 08:56:45 -0500, "M. Rack"
> wrote and is answered by the CONSERVATIVELY
INCORRECT, Rack Jite:

!Dan Quayle is not stupid.  He's just a victim of the liberal media.  
!Before he became VP, he had a reputation as being an intelligent
!Senator, 
!on top of the issues.  His speech about Murphy Brown and motherhood was

!brilliant.  He's going to be President one day.   
!Michael Rack

Gosh... :)  I think so too! This Nitwit Nation is about ripe for a...

QUAYLE/BONO in '00! 

And hey, what was STUPID AS HELL about his Murphy Brown speech was:

1) Unbeknowst to Danbo, Murhpy Brown is a fictional tv character.
2) That Danbo being a Pro-Lifer attacked that fictional character for
   deciding to have the child rather than an abortion.
3) It was a strawman argument as no one disagrees with his premise
   that most children are better off with two parents rather than one.
---

      I suppose I can understand the selfish callous
     disregard, it's the pride in it that passes me by.
               ----------------------------    
    Conservatively Incorrect - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/
   NETSCAB CENTRAL - http://www.c2.org/~ccrj/indexnet.htm

In article > George Szaszvari,
 writes:
>The Kolozsvar/Cluj difference

BTW, does anybody know that how many Saxons are
living now in Clusenberg ?

Is it true that the Romanian version of the name Cluj is
coming from the German name ? 

Tamás

If you know any organization in HU using PowerBuilder please e-mail me.
TIA!

On 21 May 1996 19:13:02 GMT  (George Szaszvari),
pissed off  wrote:

>Rubbish! According to your argument Flemings shouldn't use their own
>language in describing places Luik (Liege), Brussel (Bruxelles), Ieper
>(Ypres,) or the French/Walloons mustn't use Aix-la-Chapelle (Aachen)..
>[...]
>Please remember that to Hungarian speakers it remains Kolozsvar and if any

Personally I think nobody denied that.

I just think you didn't realize that his(their) point
was this :
The name Kolozsvar was used in an English text,
where, supposedly, one uses official names.

While I think it could have become an issue if used in
an official text or statement, given the circumstances
the whole thing looks like a storm in a water glass.

Including this sample :
>BTW this thread is cross-posted to both scm
>and scr, and I'm posting in scm, so it's Kolozsvar, as far my family and
>I am concerned. Do you have a problem with that?

As for
> Now I see where Funar gets his support from

... thanks for making all of us laugh.

Be happy.

...................................................................

"Nu eu gindesc la partid, avem un colectiv de batrini care gindeste."

 - Viorel Hrebenciuc, in timp ce vorbea

In article >,  (Ferenc Istvan
Vaski) wrote:

>  (T.M.Lutas) wrote:
> 
> >In article
> >, Matthew
> >Paul Kenneth > wrote:

> >> Regardless of who was where first, 
> >> there is the valid arguement that what the Saxons and Magyars contributed 
> >> to Transylvania (culture,folk and otherwise, schools, churches etc.)in the
 
> >> 19th, 18th, 17th and 16th centuries cannot be denied. Anyone interested 
> >> in western culture at all could understandably mourn for that loss, a 
> >> loss not due to the Romanian people but due to the evils of war, 
> >> propaganda and Ceaucescu.
> 
> >I'm not denying it and neither do most Romanians. There is nothing wrong
> >with teaching the true contributions of these two peoples. The problem is
> >in separating out the truth from the fictions propagated during 
> >magyarization campaigns of this century and the last. I believe that this
> >is the source of most of the inter-ethnic friction that manifests itself
> >between our two peoples. 
> 
> ..   I would say that people like you are the source of most of the
> inter-ethnic friction that exists....you wear your paranoia's on your
> sleeve.....and you've have posted some amazing things ...but this one
> is right up there...next you'll be telling us that Hunyadi was
> Romanian....

So does your amazement come from my assertion that there were magyarization 
campaigns or was it from reading that most Romanians don't mind people 
teaching the truth in school? You left it unclear in your response.

DB

-- 
Now available on the Romanian Political Pages
The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
(I wonder why the government never put it on their sites?)
http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

In article >,
MR ATTILA HAVERLAND > wrote:
>˙WPCš

Egy HAVERnak barmikor, szivesen!

JP

This is going to sound a bit confusing, but don't let it scare you.

A friend of mine - a Finnish girl who studies in Budapest - needs a 
couple of roommates. The apartment has three rooms and a kitchen.
Two rooms - a big livingroom and a smaller bedroom are vacant.
The apartment couldn't be in a better position (believe me, I've
lived there for some time myself). It is located in Arany Janos utca,
a couple of minutes walk from Deak ter and the Danube.
It is an old apartment and not in a prima condition, so if you are
looking for luxury, this is not for you. Instead, if you are looking
for a cool and relaxed place to stay and if you are a student (or poor for
any other reason) you might be interested in this. At this moment the
apartment doesn't have a telephone, but my friend should be getting
one in a couple of weeks.
I am leaving to Budapest next saturday, the 25.5. If you are interested
in this apartment, email me where and when you can be contacted. I will
take all the information to my friend and she will contact you as soon
as possible.
Feel free to ask any further information.

outi

(Alexander N. Bossy') writes:
> On May 14, 1996 02:11:28 in article <Re: Transylvania>,
>  ()' wrote: 
>  
> >In article >, Law Student  >
> wrote: 
> >> 
> >>  My dear and very inquisitive Sir Panonescu, to be most accurate about
> this  
> >>revolutionnary mouvements, you must know the fact that, from a historical
>  
> >point of  
> >>view, the Romanian changements were starting in 1988(!) at ...Chisinau.
> Pastor  
> >Tokes  
> >>has not at all any contributions in this impressive change. Please, try
> to  
> >practice  
> >>the comparative historical studies.                                      
>       
> > 
> >Since you're still only a student, I'll tie half my brain behind my back 
> >to make this a fair exchange. 
> > 
> >Since I was talking about the 1989 series of events that one by one 
> >toppled the communist regimes in the East Bloc, the '88 events cited by 
> >you are irrelevant "changements.". 
>  
> Joe: 
>  
> Not completely.  What events in 1988 show is that Romania was already on
> the brink of revolution, with or without Tokes.  Now, having said that,
> yes, it does turn out that Tokes was the spark that lit the Romanian
> revolution.  But, if he hadn't, someone or something else would have - and
> would have within a *very* short time. 
>  
> >>    In Iasi city, it was programmated, by the so-called Popular Front of 
> 
> >Romania  
> >>(similar to the Popular Front of Moldova), the anti-communist meeting for
>  
> >December  
> >>14, 1989 (three days earlier by comparison with the spontaneous
> solidarity of  
> > 
> >>Timisoara's citizens -behind any ethnic criteria- with that pastor
> PRIVATE  
> >>cause...)...  In a big part of Iasi, from Copou hill to the industrial
> zone,  
> >many  
> >>hundreds anti-communist manifests were spreded a day
> before...Unfortunately,  
> >the  
> >>initiators of that very rational and programming revolutionary meeting in
> Iasi  
> >city,  
> >>were, immmediately, arrested and the town occupied by the ancient
> political  
> >>police...                                                                
>       
> > 
> >So those could also be not considered sparks for the eventual 
> >revolution.  Now comes a quiz: On that final appearance of Ceausescu in 
> >the balcony that was shown on the TV worldwide, the crowd below shouted 
> >the name of a city.  Can you tell us which city that was?  I would also 
> >like your guess why THAT city.
  
And I would like to know how strong the link between the name of that city and 
the person of 
Mr.Tokes is in your mind ? Anyhow, o  December 22nd, many people had already br
ought their 
sacrifice in Timisoara for shaking the ground of communism. I think that revere
nd Tokes 
himself would make proof of bad taste revendicating those sacrifes, actually I 
think he does
not have that bad taste, others maybe do ...

> > 
> >>    Again, friendly, I invite you to chek the facts before you refer to
> the  
> >>history of another country.It's a minimum and absolute necessary bon
> sense! 
> > 
> >Me, too, friendly remind you that students should refrain lecturing 
> >before they finish their studies. 
> > 
> >>    Understandableness, your Valerius M. Ciuca.  
> > 
> >Was your name Csuka before, by any chance? 
> > 
> >Just wondering ... 
> > 
> >Yours, 
> >Panonescu 
> > 
> >PS: Brain untied.

In > George Szaszvari wrote:

> Bingo!

> I addressed this English message point already. Okay, I'll explain it
> more simply for you. As a born and bred Briton (albeit with Hungarian
> ancestry) who is more familiar with SE Europe than most over here, I use
> Kolozsvar and Cluj interchangeably. There is an official administrative
> name used (Cluj) by the Romanian powers that be to the exclusion of any
> other usage (unlike, say, Belgium, where recognition is given to three
> national languages and varieties of place name usages.) The postings from
> Romanians so far on this point seem to be in love with the idea that a
> stroke of the bureaucratic Romanian pen justifies their claim that this
> also constitutes the official English usage too. It doesn't in my
> experience (sorry to disappoint you.) English language newspapers, books,
> reports, etc, use *Kolozsvar*, if that is more germane to the context,
> never mind what Romanian speakers might insist on these days. 

 May I quote from Dan Pop's post:
: Not quite.  The original poster wrote in English about a Romanian town
: whose English name (according to my Webster) is "Cluj". 

 Now, there are some possibilities:
 - Dan Pop is a liar (I don't think he is);
 - He has a Romanian Webster (just kidding);
 - The Webster is not a good reference for English language.
 If you think so, I'll be grateful to you to give me a good reference for
English language. (Hint: references for a language are speciality books -
not journals, magazines or literary books.) After all, you live in an
English-speaking country and you should have a wide choice of references.
 
> So the chap who made the original posting using Kolozsvar was not
> incorrect, as you Romanians seem to so desperately want to convince
> yourselves. It is insidious to argue, as Lutas and his defenders do,
> against the use of Kolozsvar. In Britain such an attitude would be
> thought of as fascist.

 You jumped to some wrong conclusions. I won't argue with you on that.

> > As said before, the comparison with the New Amsterdam/New York name
> >change is not similar to our case.
> 
> So why aren't you addressing Mr Lutas with this reply? After all, you are
> agreeing with my criticism of the comparison, aren't you? Lutas was the
> one who made the ridiculous New Amsterdam comparison. Or isn't that obvious
> to you?

 I am entitled to reply to whom I want on a newsgroup and to ignore other
posts. If I would reply to every post for which I disagree with some idea
inside it, the day should have some 40 h. And I'm a busy man. OTOH, you
dismissed the post of Dan Pop too fast for my taste, bringing the thread
somewhere else that the linguistical point (which is the only one to be
considered - as you agreed with "bingo" :-) ). And that hurted my rational
spirit (I suggest to read _not_ "nationalist feelings", it has nothing to
do with). Incidentally, you made reference to that comparison which hasn't
too much to do with our situation; I invited you to focus on something else
(i.e. - the linguistical point).

> > Please, don't get so fast to radical conclusions. You might be wrong.
> 
> Thank you ever so much. Ever thought of taking your own advice? It might
> have saved you making this largely pointless (and sadly mis-directed)
> posting of yours.

 The answer is yes. Thank you for your kind remark on my post. It is more
like: 1.d4 d5  2. c4 -> dxc4 ... ya know...


 	Regards,
						Marius Iacomi

On 21 May 1996 19:13:02 GMT  (George Szaszvari),
pissed off  wrote:

>Rubbish! According to your argument Flemings shouldn't use their own
>language in describing places Luik (Liege), Brussel (Bruxelles), Ieper
>(Ypres,) or the French/Walloons mustn't use Aix-la-Chapelle (Aachen)..
>[...]
>Please remember that to Hungarian speakers it remains Kolozsvar and if any

Personally I think nobody denied that.

I just think you didn't realize that his(their) point
was this :
The name Kolozsvar was used in an English text,
where, supposedly, one uses official names.

While I think it could have become an issue if used in
an official text or statement, given the circumstances
the whole thing looks like a storm in a water glass.

Including this sample :
>BTW this thread is cross-posted to both scm
>and scr, and I'm posting in scm, so it's Kolozsvar, as far my family and
>I am concerned. Do you have a problem with that?

As for
> Now I see where Funar gets his support from

... thanks for making all of us laugh.

Be happy.

...................................................................

"Nu eu gindesc la partid, avem un colectiv de batrini care gindeste."

 - Viorel Hrebenciuc, in timp ce vorbea

 (Pravin_Krishna) wrote:

  I am writing for a friend who is currently in Budapest in order to find out i
f 
  there are any telecom providers that provide discounted/cheap phone links 
  between the US and Hungary with callback facility. Please send any informatio
n 
  you may have to .

I could offer you a service for $0.73/min (to or from Hungary).
I'm not subscribed to this newsgroup. Please write me for further details.

Kind regards,   Volkmar

--
Volkmar Gross,  Softwork Telematica           __o
Grundstrasse 3, Bremen/Germany              _`\<,_     Phone  &  Fax
http://www.winnet.de/home/softwork/     (( (*)/ (*)    +49 421 74434
'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-
My phonebill kills me! D1,D2,E+,C-Netz: Mobile Callback by FASTNET UK

In Newsgroup alt.politics.economics, Charles Dyer ) wrote:
 wrote:
>)> 
>)> On Fri, 10 May 1996 12:22:19 -0600, Adam Whiteson >
>)> wrote:
>)> 
>)> >Uh.  Wasn't it the American people who elected a senile third rate actor
>)> >for Prez of the USA.  Between naps at the oval office he would recount
>)> >stories of his days as a bomber pilot in WWII being unable to distinguish
>)> >his past movie roles from his past life.   I would not count on
>)> >the good sense of the American electorate to keep us out of trouble!
>)> >
>)> >                                  Adam Whiteson
>)> 
>)> Adam, you dildo, you have to go by what he actually did, not by what
>)> others shoved up your ass (your mind wasn't working).  Bill Clinton is
>)> proof that the American electorate won't keep us out of trouble.  We
>)> have the sheep to thank for that.  I'm sure we could have done better
>)> than Reagan, but we couldn't do any worse than Clinton.....  You're
>)																						^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>)Seems like a certain ex-veep from Indiana would be worse than Slick 
>)Willy. But only 'cause he's _stupid_. Where the Slickster's just smart 
>)enough to get himself into big trouble, Danny-boy's so dumb he'll fall 
>)into trouble and never know what hit him...


	As someone who disliked much of what Quayle did, I must point out 
that the lying, corrupt media's image of Quayle was completely false. 
Like much of what you're told about most things. You can follow any 
politician around constantly and make a big deal out of every verbal 
slip, and you'll end up with a similar image. But they're not going to 
run the footage of Gore not recognizing Thomas Jefferson from the famous 
painting in the White House and asking "who is that?", or any of dozens 
of other slips, because 80% of them -voted for- him and Clinton.


--
Words of the Sentient:

Steve Forbes' decision to become a candidate for the Republican presidential
nomination comes as a breath of fresh air to a party desperately in need of 
a champion for economic growth...He has the ability to address economic 
issues that too many Republicans find to be dry and uninteresting and turn 
them into inspiring political causes that appeal to the basic entrepreneurial 
instincts of the American people. -- Donald Lambro 
                Chief Political Correspondent The Washington Times (9/28/95) 

        mailto: | http://www.kaz.org | telnet://umb.upx.net:22

             See also #Heinlein and #Libertarian on the Undernet...

--
Words of the Sentient:

One man's Theology is another man's bellylaugh. --Lazarus Long

        mailto: | http://www.kaz.org | telnet://umb.upx.net:22

             See also #Heinlein and #Libertarian on the Undernet...

In article > HA9RX,  writes:
>37 negyzetmeter
>Pesterzsebeten
>iranyar egyenkent 25,000.oo USD

Hm, ennyiert Pest belso keruleteiben
60-80 negyzetmeteres lakasokat le-
het kapni, es nem panelban.

Tamas

Zsoter Andras ) wrote:
: Wally Keeler ) wrote:
: >For students intending to visit Hungary for the summer, it might be
: >interesting to give a voluntary hand to some NGO's involved with the Rom.

: >There are many Rom organizations which need help. The Human Rights Project
: >(HRP) in Bulgaria, is an NGO which documents human rights abuses against
: >Roma and provides free legal services to Roma to combat discrimination,
: >police brutality, etc. Graduate students can operate mostly in English.
:                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

: And poor abused Romas will communicate in fluent English. ;-)

I speak only English & I had little difficulty communicating with Roma 
when last in Hungary, indeed, I had little difficulty communicating with 
poor abused Hungarians also. If English was not spoken, I had access to a 
translator. I took the Fekete Vonat to a Roma village for the weekend -- 
no one spoke English, but there was communication. (Oh BTW, my pockets 
weren't picked)

So much for stereotypes.

Oh, and I didn't see any Hungarians commit suicide, so there went another 
stereotype.

: Another project from the Moon. :-((((
: Andras

If you are inclined, you are always welcome to work with the Inuit or any 
of the other Native Canadians on various projects, many more of them 
self-financed. 
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article <news:>
 (George Szaszvari) wrote:

>In article >,  says...
>[...]
>>While I think it could have become an issue if used in
>>an official text or statement, given the circumstances
>>the whole thing looks like a storm in a water glass.
>
>It was made an issue by your compatriot Mr Lutas. I don't
>see any Romanians on these ngs addressing him on the point.

I just did that, in the fragment you quote:
I stated very clearly that my opinion is that they overreacted
to a rather inoffensive question. 

Now let's take a look at your style

>>I just think you didn't realize that his(their) point
>>was this :
>
>I don't think you realize very much of anything at all.

You took it too hard.
We're all stupid most of the time and only have moments
when we act intelligently. We all have to live with this.
Of course, unless you're perfect.

>>While I think
>
>Does it make your brain hurt?

Descartes said that between two people that have a controversy
the one that will first run out of arguments will start insulting.
And I believe him.

td

In article >,  
says...
>
>In > George Szaszvari wrote:
> May I quote from Dan Pop's post:
>: Not quite.  The original poster wrote in English about a Romanian town
>: whose English name (according to my Webster) is "Cluj". 
>
> Now, there are some possibilities:
[nonsense snipped]..

One's own experience is that good reference. Do you always need *higher
authority* before you can decide for yourself the value of your own
(or anyone else's) experience? Read my reply to Dan P. about Webster.

>> > As said before, the comparison with the New Amsterdam/New York name
>> >change is not similar to our case.
>> 
>> So why aren't you addressing Mr Lutas with this reply? After all, you are
>> agreeing with my criticism of the comparison, aren't you? Lutas was the
>> one who made the ridiculous New Amsterdam comparison. Or isn't that 
>>obvious to you?
>
> I am entitled to reply to whom I want on a newsgroup and to ignore other
>posts. 

Ditto.

>And I'm a busy man. 

Ditto.

Checkmate!
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 *** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list! Global service ***

ERTESITES

Egy magat Balogh Eva-nak kiado levelezo a "Hungary" c.
felrevezeto cimu listan angol nyelven rendszeres magyar-
gyalazo (antimagyar) szovegeket tesz kozze. Tobbek kozott
tagadja, hogy 1956-ban SZABADSAGHARC folyt, es ezzel a
magyar tortenelem egyik legragyogobb fejezetet mocskolja
nemzetkozi nyilvanossag elott.

Ket kijelenteset erdemes egymas melle tenni, hogy Balogh
Eva nyilvanvalo szavahihetetlensege dokumentalt legyen.

Balogh Eva egyreszt kijelentette (1), hogy "1956-ra a
SZABADSAGHARC kifejezest soha nem hasznaljuk". Minthogy
ezt angolul irta a "Hungary" listara, ahol is egy olyan
liberalis idiotat fogadtak el "dontobiroul", aki (sajat
kijelentese szerint!) (a) soha nem jart Magyarorszagon,
(b) egyaltalan nem is tud magyarul (!), a "Hungary" listan
e gyalazatos kijelentes alig tamadhato, kulonosen mivel
azok ellen akik ezt meghazudtoljak, a "Hungary" lista
CENZURAT alkalmaz! (Angolul konnyen cafolhato Balogh Eva
tortenelemhamisitasa, hiszen a Time magazin a "Hungarian
Freedom Fighter"-t tette "Man of the Year" cimlapjaul; ld.

http://www.azstarnet.com/~apon/

Balogh Eva azonban legujabban azt is kijelentette:
(2): "I was a member of the Budapest Revolutionary Student
Council", vagyis hogy Balogh Eva 1956-ban az Egyetemi
Forradalmi Diakbizottsag tagja volt.

E ket (1-2) ellentmondo kijelentes kozul legalabb az
egyik irasbeli dokumentumokkal bizonyitott HAZUGSAG!

BIZONYITEK: az Egyetemi Forradalmi Diakbizottsag 1956
oktober 29-en (sajat lapjanak, az "Egyetemi Ifjusag"-nak
a cimoldali vezercikkeben) a kovetkezoket szogezte le
(facsimile-ben kivaloan olvashato):

"A Forradalmi Diakbizottsag legsurgetobb feladatanak azt
tekinti, hogy osszefogja es a SZABADSAGHARC erdekeben
iranyitsa a diaksag eroit..." (kiemeles Sz.A.)

(Facsimile megjelent legalabb ket helyen, azonosan:
(1) 1956: A forradalom sajtoja. III. Bovitett kiadas,
Ernest Nagy, Gailey Le Thillot, 1986. pp. 120.),
(2) 1956 Sajtoja, Tudositasok kiado, Budapest, 1989,
ISBN 963 02 6777 2)

Mivel az Egyetemi Forradalmi Diakbizottsag nem valmi
erintoleges modon emlitette a SZABADSAGHARC-ot, hanem
legsurgetobb feladatanak deklaralta a kimondottan a
SZABADSAGHARC erdekeben kuzdo erok osszefogasat,
Balogh Eva vagy nem volt (szellemi kepessegeinek
birtokaban) az Egyetemi Forradalmi Diakbizottsag tagja,
vagy pedig az az allitasa szemenszedett hazugsag, hogy
1956-ra a "SZABADSAGHARC" kifejezest magyarul soha
nem hasznaltuk. (A Diakbizottsag oktober 28-an
felhivast is kozzetett (ibid), melynek ELSO mondata:
"A magyar nep hosi SZABADSAGHARCA kivivta elso
gyozelmet", s a nyilatkozatot HUSZONEGY nevalairas
hitelesiti. A huszonegy nev kozott Balogh Eva NEM
SZEREPEL, s az sem lehetseges hogy ferje neven lett
volna ott, hiszen noi nev egyetlenegy sincs koztuk!)

Az olvasok figyelmeztetesere azt is kozoljuk, hogy
"Balogh Eva" allitolagos tortenesznek adja ki magat,
de e kijelenteset "alatamaszto" CV-jet (irasbeli igerete
ellenere!) immar hetek ota vonakodik a halozaton
nyilvanossagra hozni.

searching for two old friends,  Nagy Ildiko, (rita), and Kovacs Karoly,
(charlie).
Ildiko was last known to be in Atlanta, GA.  USA,  Karoly in Seattle, WA,
USA.
both spent time with me in Munich, in 88.  They know me as stephen. please
contact me at 

In article >,  says...
>>>While I think it could have become an issue if used in
>>>an official text or statement, given the circumstances
>>>the whole thing looks like a storm in a water glass.
>>
>>It was made an issue by your compatriot Mr Lutas. I don't
>>see any Romanians on these ngs addressing him on the point.
>
>I just did that, in the fragment you quote:

When I say *address Lutas* I mean just that: reply to *his* posting
and solicit his answer. After all, he made the original assertion, 
which was out and out anti-Hungarian, storm in a tea cup, or not.

>I stated very clearly that my opinion is that they overreacted
>to a rather inoffensive question. 

Comparing the use of Kolozsvar with New Amsterdam was not only absurd,
but also very offensive, so I addressed it.

>Now let's take a look at your style

How about looking at yours?

>Descartes said that between two people that have a controversy
>the one that will first run out of arguments will start insulting.
>And I believe him.

No, my self-righteous friend. I did realize what Mr Lutas was on about 
and directly addressed it. Lutas' defenders tried to claim legitimacy
for his nonsense by stating that I didn't realize the point being made.
What kind of answer did you really expect by repeating that accusation 
of *not realizing* after I made several postings on the very issue brought 
up by Lutas and his defenders? Please don't sulk when you fail to get a 
reaction on your own terms. Address the issue, understand the points 
being made, extrapolate and then you might just get a worthy reply.

Regards,
--
 George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
 *** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list! Global service ***

From: Eo Flame FAQ admin >
Message-ID: >
Subject: The Esperanto flame FAQ


               THE ESPERANTO FLAMEWAR FAQ


INTRODUCTION

Your newsgroup has been lucky enough to benefit from a 
crossposted flame war about Esperanto, a planned language 
aimed at easing international communication and increasing 
Usenet traffic. 

These flames tend to be lengthy and revolve around about 
eight arguments and associated counter-arguments, so here 
is a summary of these arguments so that you may avoid 
wasting your employer's money or failing to finish your 
thesis on schedule by repeating them one more time.

This FAQ is in the public domain, please distribute freely.


ARGUMENTS

(The arguments begin with the point against (-) Esperanto, 
followed by the argument for (+) Esperanto; simply read them 
the other way round if you are against Esperanto.)


-1. Esperanto is dead.

+1. Esperanto has 10 million speakers. (Well, it may 
have only 50000, but it definitely has some; look at 
soc.culture.esperanto and the web pages if you're not 
convinced.)


-2. A language with a simplified grammar cannot be 
expressive enough to do real literature and poetry.

+2. Yes, for instance English has no word gender, no 
inflections and extremely simplified conjugations, so 
that's why English will never have any literature. 
Real literature is written in German and Latin.


-3. You can't plan languages.

+3. Ask speakers of modern Hebrew, Nynorsk, Indonesian, 
etc.


-4. Everyone speaks English.

+4. You probably live in cloud cuckoo land. Simply try 
to discuss about something remotely challenging with 
normal people in a country where English is not the 
native language, or, more simply, read the messages of 
most non-natives (if any) taking part in the last Usenet 
flame, and weep.


-5. Esperanto will kill other languages.

+5. Esperantists want a second language for everybody 
so that we can then spend time using various national 
and local languages on their own merits instead of 
spending decades failing to master English.


-6. These Esperantists are fanatics, thinking they hold 
the Truth, and they are not even open to the idea of using 
other planned languages.

+6. Indeed, quite a few esperantists are like that, especially 
those who take part in the Esperanto flames. Nevertheless, 
there are also Esperantists, rauxmistoj, who don't care about 
Esperanto becoming a universal second language and simply want 
to enjoy, now, an interesting and efficient language that allows 
them to meet strange people from all over the world.


-7. English is the language of business.

+7. Maybe, but capitalism sucks anyway. There's more to life 
than shopping and working (outside the USA at least).


-8. Everything on the Internet is in English.

+8. There are millions of Web pages and thousands of Usenet 
news groups in other languages; you could surf full-time 
reading only material in, say, German. The fact that your 
local news server doesn't have news groups in other languages 
may be related to the fact you live in an English speaking 
country.

See: http://www.odin.net/esperanto/
     There are text in English, Hungarian and in Esperanto.