In article >, Joe Szalai
>, the man who put the "idiot" in "idiot
savant" writes:

>Subject:       Re: To everybody
>From:  Joe Szalai >
>Date:  Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:12:56 -0500
>
>At 04:06 PM 11/21/96 GMT, Sam Stowe, this lists' gifted wordsmith, a
>"master" of the cheap shot, a veritable idiot savant of the English
>language, wrote:

Why, Joe, you flatter me! I'm blushing.

>
><snip>
>>You're not an iconoclast. Your world view is entirely predictable and
>>regular, like trains timetables or bowel movements.
>
>So's your reaction to my posts.  Entirely predictable!  So where does
that
>leave us?

My reactions to your posts are anything but predictable. Else the less
discriminating palate such as belongs to the president of our mutual fan
club, Bre'r Zoltan, would not think our beliefs were so closely aligned.
He self-discombobulates; you merely huff and puff for aesthetic effect.

>
>Now, it's true that I criticize "existing capitalism" a lot, but that's
only
>because "existing socialism" is dead, and although beating a dead horse
has
>some appeal to some people, including Sam, and many others on this list,
it
>doesn't really turn me on.  Unfortunately for me, criticizing capitalism
>when most of you still live (intellectually) in a dichotomized East-West,
>Capitalist-Communist, Good-Bad world, means that I'll have to be more
clear
>in what I'm trying to say.  If I'm not, then it's my fault if some of you
>think I'm a commie.

I don't think you're a commie. I just think you're a doctrinaire left-wing
wienie who can't think out of the box. Nineteen sixty-eight is over with,
Joe. Let it go. But you do have a good heart and that counts for a hell of
a lot with me.

>So, are you all ready for a good debate?  Can you let go of your
ideologies?

You're the one who flails around the minute he has to let go of
ideologies. Learn to dog paddle for yourself before you try to teach me
how to back stroke.
Sam Stowe
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>



"Tourism probably changed our culture
as much as anything did. To attract tourists
you don't necessarily give them the true
history. Sometimes you have to compromise
and make those little tomahawks and
set a chief up on the street."
-- Joyce Dugan, Principal Chief of the
Eastern Band of the Cherokee Nation

If anyone is willing or able, I need a translation of what I've been told
is Hungarian.  There's a nice little speech from the musical "Chicago" in
which one of the characters, 'Hunyak' supposedly speaks of how she became
on o fthe cell block inmates.  Please contact me by E-mail, if you can
help me.  Thanks!

anyone who participated in the deathof Hungarians is a criminal and should
be shot. Incidently, Rakosi and Gero were Jews who were more than happy to
kill innocent Hungarians. Sort of like Adolf Hitler, actually.
Suck on that for a while.

E.Durant wrote:

>> >1. The progress of human society is actually based on cooperation,
>> >    and over history people tend to feel a duty towards the others
>> >    in the same family, than the same tribe, than the same state, and
>> >   now  - most of us - even for people on other continents.
>>
>> First, what the need for cooperation has to do with socialism/communism?
>> Why me or anyone have to share the properties to be able to cooperate?
>>
>
>With the existence of private property some people can
>force other people to "cooparate" - not of their free will, and of
>unfavourable conditions.

True, but it doesn't not effect the cooperation itself. The cooperation
can work even if it forced. The global problems of the world require
global actions but the nature of such actions are not determined. That
is why I did not see how the common property and soc/communism come to
the picture.

>How right you are. The history of capitalism not all that great...
>But like all  other epoch, it brings closer better understanding
>and more conscious control of the physical and I hope of the social
>environment.  I think if these were more in syncron, we could have
>skipped a lot of the new-dark ages, including stalinism.

I have never told the capitalism is perfect and there should not be
change. I just don't think the soc/communism would work. So, all the
effort to create such thing would be a waste.
Like it or not, all the practical facts are proving my point. Whenever
socialism-like something was tried somewhere it was a failure. You can
call such socialism whatever you like (not real socialism, etc) their
failure discredit the idea. You simple don't have any practical evidence
that your favourite society would work. All you have is theory and belief.
The other thing what you don't understand (or don't want to understand)
is that you can show the unfairness, backwardness, contradictions of
capitalism, still it will not prove the feasibility of your ideal society.

>> >4. Yes, we are all selfish upto a point, but it is in our selfish
>> >    interest to create a  more human-friendly society.
>>
>> "Kutyaharapast szorivel" (impossible to translate), if it works.
>> This reminds me what I loved in Marxism/Leninism. They want(ed)
>> to create the society of saints with the methods of Machiavelli.
>>
>
>I can't see where you get this from. They say, that it is the
>self-interest that makes people to go for a society that would
>work better for them.

They say a lots of thing. Among others, they talked about a so-called
'proletar-diktatura', a dictatorship which suppose to be the
transition between the bad capitalism and your ideal superdemocratic
society. A kind of 'the final goals sacre the methods', what they
did not see that this can work backward, too. The methods can curse
the ideas.
They had to introduce the idea of temporary dictatorship, because
it was obviuos for them the necessary changes in the society
(nationalization of the private property,etc) cannot be done peacefully.
Also, they wanted to prevent the reappearence of parties, other than
communist, in the goverment which could not be secured in a democracy.
(At least during the period when the old 'kispolgari' ideas exist in
the mind of the people.)
And these are the very problems I want you to face.


>People in the French or the Russian revolution
>fought to get a more equitable society, where more people have a
>chance for a full stomack and even for a say in decisionmaking.
>These same selfish aims could still motivate a lot of people in our
>world - even some who are actually not hungry, but would selfishly
>feel more comfortable and safe, if everybody else was satisfied.

You see, this is pure demagogy. You do not argue the posibility of
an ideal society.

>The problem hear is, that if the process will be genuinly democratic,
>no one can give a precise protocol as no one has a crystal ball to see
>the future and envisage what option will be the damocratically
>preferred one.
.......
>As I said - this is how I picture it, if it happens in time - before
>time running out and change happens in a destructive, unplanned,
>undemocratic way.
.........
>thought after trickle down...  I would think, that if they are
>confronted with a democratic majority who actually started by the
>millions taking their bits of property over, there is not a lot they
>can do besides having a paid army to shoot...  But if they are aware,
>that they can keep their houses and their swimming pools - their
>personal effects, perhaps they chose a more worry free if
>less "influential" lives.  If there is an overhelming democratic
>majority for change, I hope they have no options, they wont find
>enough people to do their fighting - this time.

So, may I conclude that you only hope the changes would be democtratic.
Also, it is very probable that it happens in a 'destructive, unplanned,
undemocratic way'.
This is a very serious challenge to your ideas, as more undemocrtic is
the process the more probable that you simple recreating the 'existing
socialism', which was admittedly a failure.

J.Zs

Kosova Daily Report #1015, 96-11-20

Kosova Information Center
KOSOVA DAILY REPORT # 1015
Prishtina, 20 November 1996

[01]  Rehn's Report on Kosova, 'Superficial, Inexhaustive, Biased', Says
Kosova Daily Newspaper
[02]  Holbrooke Might Take on the Kosova Issue, David Anderson Says
[03]  Mayor of Shkup, Kekanovski, Participates in Serbian Regime's
Manifestation in  Prishtina
[04]  LDK Local Chairman from Demjan of Has Interrogated
[05]  Serb Police Repress Hajdari Family in Mitrovica

__________________________________________________________________________
________

[01]  Rehn's Report on Kosova, 'Superficial, Inexhaustive, Biased', Says
Kosova Daily Newspaper

The Prishtina-based Bujku daily, the Albanian-language newspaper
that has "gone daily" to make up for the lack of a daily since the
Serbian regime banned Rilindja in 1990, reported last Friday and
today (Wednesday) about statements Ms. Elisabeth Rehn, the Special
Rapporteur of the Commission on Human Rights, has made on Kosova
and the plight of the Albanians. She warned over the explosive
situation in Kosova and the need to address the Kosova issue, the
Bujku/Rilindja correspondent in New York, Sulejman Gashi reported.
The Special Rapporteur presented Friday before the Third Committee
of the UN General Assembly a Special Report on Minorities in the
former Yugoslavia, which she submitted on 25 October 1996. The
report's paragraphs 30-56 addresses specifically the situation in
Kosova.

Ms. Elisabeth Rehn offered initially a survey of the legal position
of Kosova in the former Yugoslavia in the aftermath of the 1974
Constitution, when Kosova and Vojvodina, as she put it, "enjoyed in
the SFRY a status close to that of the republics".
"While Kosovo's instability has a long and complicated history, the
roots of the present problems may be found in a series of events
which occurred in 1989 to 1991", says the report in paragraph 31,
leading the Bujku correspondent note that the very beginning
indicates that this is "a quite superficial, inexhaustive and
biased presentation of the situation in Kosova, leaving the
impression as if [the report] had been edited by the Serbian
authorities".

Ms. Rehn is adamant to call Kosova a 'province' and refer to the
Albanian population as a "minority" in Serbia, Bujku writes, adding
that she resorts to double standards, because she calls the self-
proclaimed federation of Serbia and Montenegro  "the Federal
Republic of Yugoslavia", although the institution she works for has
not yet recognized a state with such a name!
The Bujku correspondent notes the implied 'middle position' that
Rehn takes in allocating equal share of the blame for the situation
in Kosova to the Serbs and the Albanians [in the first paragraph of
Conclusions and recommendations, in which she says "There is no
purpose served by attempting to attribute sole responsibility
either to the Serbian authorities or to local Albanians and their
political leadership"]. This kind of 'impartiality' as well as the
fact that no word is said in the report about the 20.000 Serbs
forcefully resettled to Kosova by the Serbian regime; nothing about
the treatment of the Albanian political prisoners; nothing about
the predicament of some 400.000 Albanians who have been forced to
flee Kosova in the past half a dozen years; no mention on the 12
Albanian killed by Serbian police and military during June-
September 1996 period, hundreds of Albanians tortured, thousands
ill-treated, while offering a detailed account on the killing of
Serb policemen in April. These are some of the remarks the Bujku
correspondent makes on the occasion of the publication of the
report.

The Bujku correspondent quoted Ms. Rehn as saying to him, while
ascending to the 25 story, where she was to meet with the Secretary
General Boutros-Boutros Ghali, "Sometimes I have the impression it
is only the United States of America and me who are being
preoccupied with Kosova, although the European Parliament has also
been very active in addressing the Kosova issue".
The Special Rapporteur has frequently complained about her
statements being misquoted by the media in the former Yugoslavia,
the fact is her remarks on Kosova. Analysts have seen in her public
remarks an emphasis on the urgency of bringing an end to the
Serbian regime's practices and addressing the Kosova issue, and a
substantial de-emphasis which derives from the latest report,
submitted after her most recent mission to the country in early
October. The conclusions and recommendations chapter in Ms. Rehn's
report, while ostensibly sounding impartial, conveys a deeply
political message in favor of 'Yugoslav'/Serbian sovereignty over
Kosova.

The frequency of reference to Kosova Albanians as a "minority", so
conspicuous in the latest Rehn report on Kosova, is music to the
ears of the Serbian/'Yugoslav' authorities only. An interview the
'Yugoslav' President Lilic gave to a Russian daily, carried by
Belgrade Politika daily, overflows with such a 'minority Albanian'
terminology.

[02]  Holbrooke Might Take on the Kosova Issue, David Anderson Says

It is possible to look for a solution to the Kosova issue in which
the Kosovars would have autonomy, perhaps even an independent
republic, David Anderson, the former U.S. ambassador in Belgrade,
currently director of the Aspen Institute in Berlin, told the
Deutsche Welle.

Mr. David Anderson said open and genuine dialogue between the
Kosova leaders and Belgrade should be pursued in search of a
peaceful solution and to prevent a conflict.
I will meet next week with Richard Holbrooke [the Dayton Accords
architect] to discuss Kosova, the Albanian Section of the Deutsche
Welle quoted him as saying. "Perhaps Holbrooke will take on the
issue of Kosova, as a necessary step in the aftermath of Dayton",
David Anderson said, adding that "Milosevic and Rugova should be
pressurized to reach a settlement to this longstanding problem".

[03]  Mayor of Shkup, Kekanovski, Participates in Serbian Regime's
Manifestation in  Prishtina

The representatives of the Serbian-installed administration in
Prishtina marked yesterday the 52th anniversary of the 19 November
- - "the Liberation Day from fascism", as the Serb regime calls it.
The Serbian regime's mayor of Prishtina, Novica Sojevic, in an
utterly anti-Albanian speech, said alluding to the Albanians:
"Prishtina is today, just like half a century ago, targeted by
those who want to see out city become part of a foreign state". The
Kosova capital in Sojevic's words has been the center of "political
unrest and an indicator of the decisive events of the Serbian
people". Still alluding to the Albanians, the Serbian regime's
administrator said it has been those "who have betrayed the
achievements of the national-liberation struggle, the secret
enemies of cohabitation and Yugoslavism" have been after gaining
control of Prishtina.

Governing Prishtina has been the aim of the "dark separatist
forces", Nikola Sojevic said, addressing the representatives of the
Serbian police and military regime deployed in Kosova.
Participating in the meeting was also the mayor of Shkup [Skopje],
Jovo Kekanovski, Serbian Tanjug news agency said.
Following the Gazimestan rally of Slobodan Milosevic in June 1989,
this is the first time a foreign delegation participates in a
manifestation organized by the occupying Serbian authorities in
Kosova.

Participation of an official of the Kosova neighboring country,
Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM), and Prishtina's
nearest capital city Shkup/Skopje, which by the way is home to over
150.000 Albanians, is all but a good-neighborly gesture.


[04]  LDK Local Chairman from Demjan of Has Interrogated

Yesterday, the Serbian security in Gjakova summoned Besim Muhadri
for interrogation at the Serbian security premises.
This was the forth time he was summoned to the Serbian security.
Besim Muhadri, a local LDK activist and principal of the "Pjet&r
Bogdani" primary school in Demjan, was interrogated about his
political activities and the local cultural outlet "Etja" (The
Thirst), LDK sources reported.
Mr. Muhadri was interrogated and intimidated for hours, the report
said. He was ordered to report back to the Serbian security premises
again.

[05]  Serb Police Repress Hajdari Family in Mitrovica

The still unexplained killing of a Serb hunter in 1992, which
happened somewhere between Bistrica and B&r^an villages of
Leposaviq, has been used as a pretext for the Serbian police to
intimidate and repress the Hajdari family from Mitrovica for days,
says a report provided by the LDK Information Commission in
Mitrovica.

The LDK sources say the Serbian police arrested Naim and Basri
Hajdari at their home in Mitrovica on 18 November. They were held
at the police station for four hours, and were released providing
they would report at the police station together with their father
Xhafer Hajdari.
Xhafer Hajdari reported at the police station this morning. He was
interrogated and subjected to severe police torture under the
charges that his son Bekim had allegedly committed the murder. He
was ordered to turn in his son and the weapon he allegedly killed
the Serb hunter with.
The Serbian police arrested also this morning Xhafer's nephew Agim
Hajdari (35). The LDK sources say that he too was arrested in
connection with the unexplained murder of the Serb.


------------------------------

End of kosovo-digest V1 #143
****************************

At 06:34 AM 11/23/96 GMT,   wrote:

>anyone who participated in the deathof Hungarians is a criminal and should
>be shot. Incidently, Rakosi and Gero were Jews who were more than happy to
>kill innocent Hungarians. Sort of like Adolf Hitler, actually.
>Suck on that for a while.

Is it the water? Or what?

Each time you move a rock, they are there, these "naci fergek" (nazi worms).

Gabor D. Farkas

At 06:34 AM 11/23/96 GMT,  wrote:

>anyone who participated in the deathof Hungarians is a criminal and should
>be shot. Incidently, Rakosi and Gero were Jews who were more than happy to
>kill innocent Hungarians. Sort of like Adolf Hitler, actually.
>Suck on that for a while.

Hey buddy, I'll give you something to suck on for a while.  No doubt you
blame Jews for your single digit IQ.  Right?

Joe Szalai

On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 06:34 AM 11/23/96 GMT,  wrote:
>
> >anyone who participated in the deathof Hungarians is a criminal and should
> >be shot. Incidently, Rakosi and Gero were Jews who were more than happy to
> >kill innocent Hungarians. Sort of like Adolf Hitler, actually.
> >Suck on that for a while.
>
> Hey buddy, I'll give you something to suck on for a while.  No doubt you
> blame Jews for your single digit IQ.  Right?
>
> Joe Szalai

<<<<<<<<
Joe you are like a wild dog attacking any bone!

You with your high negative IQ managed to totally ignore the statement
which happens to be a fact. Morevoer, you also ignorethe first statement
which I think is what you should be reacting to much more.
Namely, does it imply that ANYONE who killed Hungarians should be killed --
Nazis, Communists, Turks, Mongols, Romanians, Slovakians, et al?

Need I say more? When will we be ready to bring REAL justice. Is killing
all those who killed us going to solve the problem(s) -- or is there a
better way?  Let us just say that : "Vengence is mine said the Lord!".

Peter Soltesz

I wonder how many politicians -  and others - are joining the main
parties (especially in the last few decades) in the US due to the urge to bette
r
 society...
I hope you have the same reservations towards them...

I know people who joined the MKP in 45 because they thought that
marxism seemed ok especially as the main fighters of nazism were
on the left. There was genuine belief in a new start, and even
enthusiasm. No one can deny that.
 Don't forget, the true nature of stalinism was a
fairly well kept secret until much later - when it surfaced and
caused the fracture of the left everywhere.


>         So, since you object to calling Hungarians an opportunistic lot why
> don't we just say that 10 percent of the adult population and a much higher
> percentage of the intelligentsia was an opportunistic lot because according
> to Gyorgy Kadar practically nobody was a marxist. (Which I do believe, by
> the way.) Yes, they joined because they perceived, rightly or wrongly, that
> the road to success was through party membership. And all the talk today why
> they joined is mostly hogwosh. The most often repeated phrase: "That was the
> only way I could affect politics and introduce reforms" is rather sickening.
> Why don't they just tell the truth? "We joined the party because we tought
> that it was good for our careers." I have serious difficulties with lack of
> candor.
>
>         Eva Balogh
>

> >With the existence of private property some people can
> >force other people to "cooparate" - not of their free will, and of
> >unfavourable conditions.
>
> True, but it doesn't not effect the cooperation itself. The cooperation
> can work even if it forced. The global problems of the world require
> global actions but the nature of such actions are not determined. That
> is why I did not see how the common property and soc/communism come to
> the picture.
>

Exactly. The idea is to have a coordinated global action -
determined.  I can't see it happening under capitalism.
None of the feeble agreements so far ( etc. Rio on environment
or several UN or EU eddicts) been acted upon.


> I have never told the capitalism is perfect and there should not be
> change. I just don't think the soc/communism would work. So, all the
> effort to create such thing would be a waste.
> Like it or not, all the practical facts are proving my point. Whenever
> socialism-like something was tried somewhere it was a failure. You can
> call such socialism whatever you like (not real socialism, etc) their
> failure discredit the idea. You simple don't have any practical evidence
> that your favourite society would work. All you have is theory and belief.
> The other thing what you don't understand (or don't want to understand)
> is that you can show the unfairness, backwardness, contradictions of
> capitalism, still it will not prove the feasibility of your ideal society.
>

You have no practical evidence, that capitalism is not taking us
rapidly towards global destruction, the tendency of this century
shows that it does.  I pointed out (a few times) what were the very
easily visible reasons for the failures of socialism so far, such as
the non-existant conditions that could provide democracy.
You fail to respond to these points.  Some theory can actually be
right, even in social science. You suggest not to have any?



> They had to introduce the idea of temporary dictatorship, because
> it was obviuos for them the necessary changes in the society
> (nationalization of the private property,etc) cannot be done peacefully.
> Also, they wanted to prevent the reappearence of parties, other than
> communist, in the goverment which could not be secured in a democracy.
> (At least during the period when the old 'kispolgari' ideas exist in
> the mind of the people.)
> And these are the very problems I want you to face.
>
>

The marxist definition of proletar dictatorship was actually for the
widest democracy ever, as more people would have been
part of the oppressors, than the oppressed. (E.g. the Athen's
democracy in ancient Greece was democratic for free men, but not for
slaves and women - probably the majority)
However, as we know, due to well known objective reasons, such as
low level of literacy, low level of communication and extreme level
of poverty, the democracy was gorgotten from this recepee and the
ditatorship stayed in the Soviet Union, and they were in the position
to propagate this system to maintain the status-quo of their new
burocratic elite.
However all those initial conditions are now different in  most parts
of the world.
You should face the fact, that capitalism is very affectionate to
dictatorship, and chooses to coexist and cooperate with it, if it
doesn't threaten it's status quo.



> >People in the French or the Russian revolution
> >fought to get a more equitable society, where more people have a
> >chance for a full stomack and even for a say in decisionmaking.
> >These same selfish aims could still motivate a lot of people in our
> >world - even some who are actually not hungry, but would selfishly
> >feel more comfortable and safe, if everybody else was satisfied.
>
> You see, this is pure demagogy. You do not argue the posibility of
> an ideal society.

I don't. I just want a more efficient one. Where is the demagogy?



> So, may I conclude that you only hope the changes would be democtratic.
> Also, it is very probable that it happens in a 'destructive, unplanned,
> undemocratic way'.
> This is a very serious challenge to your ideas, as more undemocrtic is
> the process the more probable that you simple recreating the 'existing
> socialism', which was admittedly a failure.
>
> J.Zs


What I said was, that if we do let things go on without a conscious
plan for the future, than the change will be uncontrolled. If you let
capitalism go on unchallenged, the future is uncertain and
unpredictable with very small chance of democracy - if you can call
that what we have now.  I, personally, would prefer a peaceful and
democratically controlled change. The longer it takes, the less
chance for it's success.

Greetings, and apologies. I am making a flying visit to this list to ask for yo
u
r help. I need the full (snail-mail)
address of Erseki Ko"nyvta'r (accents follow the letters), Esztergom. I speak n
o
 Hungarian whatever, but found
my way on the Web to a Hungarian/English dictionary which told me that "Ko"nyvt
a
'r" = "Library". It did not
know what "Erseki" means. Perhaps it is a proper noun? In that case, perhaps no
further address is needed--but
your advice would be most welcome.

Avril Henry
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  e-mail: 
     tel: 01392 264252
     fax: +44 1392 264361
   snail: Professor Avril Henry, School of English & American Studies,
          Queen's Building, Queen's Drive, University of Exeter,
          EXETER, UK, EX4 4QH

At 10:26 AM 11/23/96 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:

<snip>
>Joe you are like a wild dog attacking any bone!

I haven't attacked your bone yet, Peter.  I'm leery of experiencing a really
foul aftertaste.  Arf, arf!

Joe Szalai

Peter Soltesz - the list's self acclaimed "rev" - preaching God fearing, God
loving et al,  At 10:26 AM 23/11/96 -0500, utters:

>Joe you are like a wild dog attacking any bone!
>
>You with your high negative IQ managed to totally ignore the statement
>which happens to be a fact. Morevoer, you also ignorethe first statement
>which I think is what you should be reacting to much more.
>Namely, does it imply that ANYONE who killed Hungarians should be killed --
>Nazis, Communists, Turks, Mongols, Romanians, Slovakians, et al?
>
>Need I say more? When will we be ready to bring REAL justice. Is killing
>all those who killed us going to solve the problem(s) -- or is there a
>better way?  Let us just say that : "Vengence is mine said the Lord!".
>
>Peter Soltesz
>
Need one say more?  A perfect example of the teachings of God - no?
Keep it up Rev. Soltesz!  You're making a fine impression, as per usual!
Congratulations!
Regards,
Aniko
>

Hey Aniko!
Please pray tell what the heck is that supposed to mean?
You and Szalai among others cannmot even read the original that someone
else sent you and respond to it...except to attack people.
Tell me what I said that is wrong? Neither of you managed to respond in
any intelligent manner except to attack people.

Well what is the answer to the original question, and then to mine??
Oh you cant read that far perhaps without your non-sense replies?
Peter Soltesz

On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, Aniko Dunford wrote:

> Peter Soltesz - the list's self acclaimed "rev" - preaching God fearing, God
> loving et al,  At 10:26 AM 23/11/96 -0500, utters:
>
> >Joe you are like a wild dog attacking any bone!
> >
> >You with your high negative IQ managed to totally ignore the statement
> >which happens to be a fact. Morevoer, you also ignorethe first statement
> >which I think is what you should be reacting to much more.
> >Namely, does it imply that ANYONE who killed Hungarians should be killed --
> >Nazis, Communists, Turks, Mongols, Romanians, Slovakians, et al?
> >
> >Need I say more? When will we be ready to bring REAL justice. Is killing
> >all those who killed us going to solve the problem(s) -- or is there a
> >better way?  Let us just say that : "Vengence is mine said the Lord!".
> >
> >Peter Soltesz
> >
> Need one say more?  A perfect example of the teachings of God - no?
> Keep it up Rev. Soltesz!  You're making a fine impression, as per usual!
> Congratulations!
> Regards,
> Aniko
> >
>

Dear (self acclaimed, but so be it - (it's a free world))  Rev. Soltesz:

 At 03:33 PM 23/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Hey Aniko!
>Please pray tell what the heck is that supposed to mean?
>You and Szalai among others cannmot even read the original that someone
>else sent you and respond to it...except to attack people.
>Tell me what I said that is wrong? Neither of you managed to respond in
>any intelligent manner except to attack people.
>
First; Is it perhaps, that your God had in mind a level of intelligence for
some; above that, of your own comprehension? - take it up with him/her.

Second; "to attack people" - ha? Must be coming from within a tad, Dear Rev?

Third: re: "pray tell, etc) - replace "Szalai" "You" along with "others" by
"I" (as in Rev. Soltesz).  Then, see if it makes more sense.

If it still makes no sense to you;  take a couple of aspirins, or a shot of
Muskotaly - and please, take the time to read, again... all that you've
said, and in reply to what. Then, if it is still leaving you lost, consult
your "God", who ever it may be .... He/she, seems to have all your answers.
Since your own, are non existant.  You cowardly continue to hide behind
He/She's ideologies.

In faith,
Aniko.

At 1:09 PM 11/23/96, Avril Henry wrote:
>Greetings, and apologies. I am making a flying visit to this list to ask
>for you
>r help. I need the full (snail-mail)
>address of Erseki Ko"nyvta'r (accents follow the letters), Esztergom. I
>speak no
> Hungarian whatever, but found
>my way on the Web to a Hungarian/English dictionary which told me that
>"Ko"nyvta
>'r" = "Library". It did not
>know what "Erseki" means. Perhaps it is a proper noun? In that case, perhaps n
o
>further address is needed--but
>your advice would be most welcome.
>
>Avril Henry
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  e-mail: 
>     tel: 01392 264252
>     fax: +44 1392 264361
>   snail: Professor Avril Henry, School of English & American Studies,
>          Queen's Building, Queen's Drive, University of Exeter,
>          EXETER, UK, EX4 4QH

ersek=archbishop

Archiepiscopal Library

In article >,
 says...
>
>Greetings, and apologies. I am making a flying visit to this list to ask
for you
>r help. I need the full (snail-mail)
>address of Erseki Ko"nyvta'r (accents follow the letters), Esztergom. I
speak no
> Hungarian whatever, but found
>my way on the Web to a Hungarian/English dictionary which told me that
"Ko"nyvta
>'r" = "Library". It did not
>know what "Erseki" means. Perhaps it is a proper noun? In that case,
perhaps no
>further address is needed--but
>your advice would be most welcome.
>
>Avril Henry
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

It is the archbishop's library, Avril, so it will be easy to find.  It is
probably close to the basilica.

Agnes
>  e-mail: 
>     tel: 01392 264252
>     fax: +44 1392 264361
>   snail: Professor Avril Henry, School of English & American Studies,
>          Queen's Building, Queen's Drive, University of Exeter,
>          EXETER, UK, EX4 4QH

At 03:55 PM 11/23/90 +0000, Eva Durant wrote:
>I wonder how many politicians -  and others - are joining the main
>parties (especially in the last few decades) in the US due to the urge to
better
> society...

        Just to inform you about American reality Americans don't join
parties. They register to vote which can be done in three ways in most
states: register as a Democrat, a Republican, or an Independent. If you
register as a Democrat or a Republican you are entitled to vote in primary
elections, if they are held. (They are not held in every states.) The
American parties are not mass parties and there is no official membership
and thus membership dues. But, if you want to do something in the local
party organization, of course, you can.

>I hope you have the same reservations towards them...

        I certainly have no reservations about them. People active in, for
example, our town's Republican or Democratic politics are doing all sorts of
good work.

>
>I know people who joined the MKP in 45 because they thought that
>marxism seemed ok especially as the main fighters of nazism were
>on the left. There was genuine belief in a new start, and even
>enthusiasm. No one can deny that.
> Don't forget, the true nature of stalinism was a
>fairly well kept secret until much later - when it surfaced and
>caused the fracture of the left everywhere.

        Eva, you should have read my words a bit more carefully. I talked
about two things. One was party membership after 1945 and the other, party
membership after 1956. The words you have quoted from me so judiciously are
related to those people who joined the party in the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s.
And even Magda Zimanyi admitted that these people joined the MSzMP for
personal advantage.

        Eva Balogh

In article >,
 says...
>
>At 06:34 AM 11/23/96 GMT,   wrote:
>
>>anyone who participated in the deathof Hungarians is a criminal and
should
>>be shot. Incidently, Rakosi and Gero were Jews who were more than happy
to
>>kill innocent Hungarians. Sort of like Adolf Hitler, actually.
>>Suck on that for a while.
>
>Is it the water? Or what?
>
>Each time you move a rock, they are there, these "naci fergek" (nazi
worms).
>
>Gabor D. Farkas

I would like to point out here that the Rakosi regime didn't make any
distinction between Jews and non-Jews.  Jewish "capitalists" had exactly
the same fate as the non-Jewish capitalists.

Agnes

At 10:30 PM 11/23/96 GMT, Agnes wrote:

>I would like to point out here that the Rakosi regime didn't make any
>distinction between Jews and non-Jews.  Jewish "capitalists" had exactly
>the same fate as the non-Jewish capitalists.

We all know this. I am sure  knows it too. But he is a nazi
and does what nazis do. How old is he? Was he a "keretlege'ny"? Or may be
one of Szalasi's boys? Is he yearning for the good old times?

The light is strong and I hope he is going to crawl back where he belongs,
under the rock, with all the other bugs.

Gabor D. Farkas

At 09:12 AM 11/22/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:

>So, are you all ready for a good debate?  Can you let go of your ideologies?

If you accept engineers, I will be ready in about two weeks (I'll be away
until then).

Gabor D. Farkas

PS. Can you? (let go...)

At 08:15 PM 11/23/96 -0800, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>At 09:12 AM 11/22/96 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>>So, are you all ready for a good debate?  Can you let go of your ideologies?
>
>If you accept engineers, I will be ready in about two weeks (I'll be away
>until then).

I do.  You're on.

Joe Szalai

>On Sat, 23 Nov 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>> At 06:34 AM 11/23/96 GMT,  wrote:
>>
>> >anyone who participated in the deathof Hungarians is a criminal and should
>> >be shot. Incidently, Rakosi and Gero were Jews who were more than happy to
>> >kill innocent Hungarians. Sort of like Adolf Hitler, actually.
>> >Suck on that for a while.
>>
>> Hey buddy, I'll give you something to suck on for a while.  No doubt you
>> blame Jews for your single digit IQ.  Right?
>>
>> Joe Szalai
>
><<<<<<<<
>Joe you are like a wild dog attacking any bone!
>
>You with your high negative IQ managed to totally ignore the statement
>which happens to be a fact. Morevoer, you also ignorethe first statement
>which I think is what you should be reacting to much more.
>Namely, does it imply that ANYONE who killed Hungarians should be killed --
>Nazis, Communists, Turks, Mongols, Romanians, Slovakians, et al?
>
>Need I say more? When will we be ready to bring REAL justice. Is killing
>all those who killed us going to solve the problem(s) -- or is there a
>better way?  Let us just say that : "Vengence is mine said the Lord!".
>
>Peter Soltesz
>
I don't know if there is a worse way! If you kill those, who killed your
relatives, the relatives of those will kill you, for what your living
relatives will kill them,
for what .... - and the humankind will extinct.

BTW: Rakosi and Gero were "more than happy" (??) to kill innocent Jews too.
Saying that they were Jews and were more than happy to kill innocent
Hungarians is like saying that Hitler who was a house-painter was more than
happy to kill innocent Jews. Tha latter is a statement which happens to be a
fact too, but misses the point.