On 4 Jul 1995  wrote:

> Your invocation of fighting words is just so much BS I am used to from you. 

BS like beauty may be in the eye of the beholder. The Serbs found it worth
their while to have a fight over what you contemtuosely term as BS.

> Well, since there was no such thing as "Slovakia" on maps before the
> 20th century, your comment is just another of your nonsensical
> ramblings.

Right, before the 20th century it was called Magyaorszag in blatant disregard
for the majority Slovak population. Might makes right, this is what the 
European neocolonialists seem to have decided abot the 'former' Yugoslavia.

> More of the same, with an additional dose of self-projection. 
> (Well, along the lines: "we wanted to get Transylvania, so they must
> want to get if from us, too."  Or: "We want to get back Bessarabia, so
> they must be wanting to get back Transylvania.")

You are sadly deluding yourself. We always had Transylvania, exept for a
historicaly brief span of Magyar circumvention.

> It might be an interesting project to study why Romanians go into these
> fits whenever Hungarians want to set the historical record straight.
> Or at least present their version of it.  

Words, words, words. You have no regard for truth, historical or otherwise,
but for your self serving, hare brained historical fantasies. You are hostile
to the self determination of the nations of Eastern Europe, and just as your
nazi mentors you are abusing and inflaming the 'minority' issues in those
countries. A transparent regret for the 'good ol' times of the 
Austo-HUNGARIAN empire, and a desire to revive that dinasaurus.

m. cristian

In article >, AND Books > wrote:
>heard rumor about Mr. Viktor Molnar of US U'j Vila'g being harmed in Budapest
>does anyone have details?

I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner.

Joe

In article >, Dan Pop > wrote:

>How about the Hungarian National World Council and the American
>Hungarian Congress?  If necessary, I can repost the "HUNGARIANS IN THE
>WEST CALL FOR TRANSYLVANIAN SELF-DETERMINATION" document, submitted by
>Hon. ROBERT K. DORNAN to the House of Representatives.

Oh, I am not member of either of those orgs, so that would hardly be
then my company ("& Co."). 

>If memory serves (I don't keep archives of s.c.r) you were the one who
>suggested, a couple of years ago, local referenda, in certain parts of
>Transylvania, with the purpose of changing the borders, invoking as a
>precedent similar referenda which changed the border between Austria
>and Hungary, immediately after WWI.

Very good, Danno!  Indeed, I mentioned something like that in passing,
but it was only after some of you guys insisted that people there would
choose to be part of Romania even if there was a referendum, because the
majority of the population was Romanian.  That's when I suggested that
let's lower the "granularity" of the vote to smaller than the whole of
Transylvania for purposes of redrawing the border to follow more closely
the ethnic dividing line.  Heck, I would even include the Hungarian side
of the current border to have the Romanian minority a chance to join the
mother country.  Of course I realize that this should have been done in
1920, not now, but I would even take a chance now.  What could be more
democratic than that?  Even the Helsinki Act allows for such a thing.
If suggesting this brands me as a revanchist, then so be it.

Joe

In article >,
Wojciech Chrostek > wrote:
>Gyerekek, ahogy illik, Fradika bajnok lett es megnyerte a kupat is.
>Nem tudom pontosan, vajon-e Pinter Attila meg minding jatszik a
>Fradiban. Remelem valaki feltudja nekem sorolni a mai Fradi kezdo
>11-set. Kosz.

De eloszor te aruld el honnan tudsz olyan jol magyarul azzal a nevvel.
A magyar nyelv nem epp a legkonnyebbek koze tartozik, s ha en idegen
lennek, biztos valami konnyebbet valasztanek.  A te neved lengyel, vagy
cseh, igaz?

P. Jozsef

In article > Hermes <H
> writes:
>You are hostile to the self determination of the nations of Eastern Europe

Self-determination is the past. Now as I have understood, Western Europe
favours no border change, and good treatment of the minorities left inside
borders. Be it Croatia or Romania. Are you hostile to that Western view?
-- Olivier

Are there any genealogy groups in Hungary?

--
Al Neuman

On 5 Jul 1995, CLARY Olivier wrote:

> Self-determination is the past. Now as I have understood, Western Europe
> favours no border change, and good treatment of the minorities left inside
> borders. Be it Croatia or Romania. Are you hostile to that Western view?
> -- Olivier

Friend, you have either not 'understood' the Western European position, or
more likely 'Western Europe' is talking brom both sides of its mouth.

Perhaps you think that Western Europe's encouragement, goading, complicity
and sanctioning of the troubles in former Yugoslavia, and the factual
dismemberment of that country 'favours no border change'.

As far as the 'good treatment of minorities' is concerned at least as far
as Romania, I think is best left to Romanians. As a country striving for 
democracy, Romania and it's citizens of any nationality, can be trusted to
make the right decisions, and work out any problems that there may be amongst
themselves.
Yes, I am resentful and hostile to Western European patronizing 
interventionism and meddling in the affairs of the new democracies of Eastern
Europe.  I also very much hope that they will get burned in Bosnia, and find
the cure for their shameless, inept and shortsighted policies in the region. 
Policies that I do not hesitate to call as I see them, neocolonialism and 
gun boat politics.

m. cristian

> Jeliko writes:

>>As the editors have clearly stated, pre-943 events,
>>their chronology, and the name of the people involved
>>in these events were borrowed, from Byzantine
>>sources.

>I think you are missing a significant difference. All
>indications are that Nestor (lets assume a name for
>the writer) folowed NOT original Greek chronicles but
>had access to a Slav translation (possibly Bulgarian)

Neither the Byzantine nor the Slavic sources used
"Vlakhs" for the Franks. I am aware of the possibility
that a Bulgarian translation, rather than the original
Byzantine chronicle, was used by Nestor. Cross and
Sheborwitz-Wetzor provided this information in their
"Introduction" to the Laurentian Text.

Initially, I considered this fact irrelevant, but now
that you mentioned it I think that it further
strengthens the "Romanian" interpretation. First, there
is no chance that a 11th century Bulgarian chronicler,
would use "the Vlakhs" for replacing "the Franks".
Secondly, there is no way a South Slavic author would
use, as you suggested, the East Slavic spelling
"Volchi". Finally, the existence of previous Slavonic
translation of the Greek Chronicle brings no support to
your assertion that Nestor literally copied the text.
The sentence "where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands
NOW lie" pertains to the 12th century statal boundaries
and the Present Tense belongs to Nestor.

>No the Greeks at that time generally used Fraggoi, but
>neither did they use Ougri for the Hungarians but they
>generally used Turkoi. So I may ask the same if you
>show me Ougroi for the Hungarians in the Greek
>chronicles, than I will show you Volochi or Volchi(the
>spelling in the Povest) for the Franks :-).

Kind of like "show me yours and I'll show you mine",
right?:-) Well, I really appreciate your sense of humor
Jeliko, but I think you have exhausted all your decent
arguments.

It is incorrect to say that the Byzantine generally
described the Hungarians as Turkoi. Far from being the
usual Byzantine custom to refer to the Magyars as
"Turkoi", this custom was actually a very restricted
one. The custom was introduced by Leo the Philosopher,
after the Greco-Bulgarian-Magyar war. The warriors whom
Leo saw and described during the war of 895 were Kavars
who were themselves Turks. This name "Turkoi" was
adopted by Leo's Patriarch, by his son, and by the
writers who compiled their works under the son's
directions. Constantine, in his  De Administrando
Imperio, was led to carry on the imperial tradition of
nomenclature. The period during which the term was in
use hardly exceeds 50 years (Macartney, C.A., 1968, The
Magyars in the Ninth Century, Cambridge University
Press).

According to Macartney, the popular custom among  the
Greek chroniclers was to refer to the Magyars as
"Ougroi" and he argued his point using examples from
Leo Grammaticus, Georgius Monachus, and Zonaras.

>>This is one of the issues you have eluded in your
>>replay: Can you think of any Byzantine document that
>>referring to the Franks calls them Vlakhs? As a
>>matter of fact, can you quote ONE SINGLE document
>>that unmistakably uses Vlakhs for the Franks?

>As stated above we'll trade if you show Ougri in the
>Greek chronicles instead of Turkoi (or in some cases
>Ounnoi)

I think I have just answered your challenge, that is, I
showed you mine. Let's see yours :-)

>it is very possible, and very likely that a Slavic
>translation used to excerpt by Nestor used the terms
>"where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands NOW lie",

You have not brought any argument for this claim. It
may seem to you "very possible and very likely", but to
me it sounds exactly like what it is: a statement
without any foundation.

>I had indirect references that in places the "Volochi"
>of the Povest was translated into English in place as
>Vlakhs and in places as French.

You mentioned several times these "indirect references"
but when asked to name them you kept quiet. I am aware
of one of these references: Gyorffy, Gy., 1970,
Anonymus Gesta Hungarorumanak kora es hitelessege.
Irodalomtorteneti Kozlemeyek, 7, Budapest. Gyorffy used
the same suspect equivalence between the Vlakhs and the
Franks to "interpret" Magister P.'s Gesta. Anonymus, by
his introduction of a certain "Gelou, dux Blacorum",
has sorely embarrassed his countrymen in later
centuries, who would give much to explain the
inopportune  mention of the Romanians in Transylvania
at the time of the Magyar occupation:

     "The Slavic ethnical name of the 10th century,
          vlach, was, in its plural form, vlasi,
          borrowed by the Hungarian language with the
          meaning >>Neo-latin, Italian, French<<, in
          the form olasz(i); in the age of Arpad, this
          was the Hungarian name of the Neo-latin
          peoples, thus, the French, i.e., the Franks
          (for example, Latin Francavilla = Hungarian
          Olaszi) and this is  even at present the
          Hungarian name of the Italians."[Gyorffy,
          p.8]

However, Gyorffy did not mention three important facts:
(1)that the every day language of the late 9th century
East Franks was German, Latin being just the official
language; (2)that the Hungarian name for Romanians was
Olah(i), a people whose every day language was a
romance language, and (3)that tens of Middle-Ages
place-names and geographical names containing the
equivalent of the ethnic name Vlach (Vlas, Vlase,
Vlasovo) still exist in present day Croatia, Serbia,
Banat, Bulgaria, and Muntenia.

Sure, one can extend Gyorffy's poor argumentation to
Nestor's Vlakhs but I'm afraid that this line of
reasoning has no chance to be accepted by a neutral
observer. A better approach would be to present quotes,
from other 10th or 11th century Slavonic or (even more
appropiate) Hungarian documents, proving the fact that
the use of "the Vlakhs" for the German Franks (not for
Italians) was a widespread custom.

>Rather than using indirect references I have ordered
>the facsimile of the original.

You should also ask for a facsimile of the Nikonian
Chronicle. This 16th century Russian chronicle
apparently used as one of its sources the 14th century
Laurentian Text of the Povest. Let's read together
several interesting excerpts:

"Also to the tribes of Japhet belong the Varangians,
     Swedes, Normans, Goths, Russians, English,
     Galicians [of Spain], Poles, Vlakhs[Rumanians],
     Romans, Germans, Carolingians, Venetians, Italians
     and others."

It seems that again the English translators were biased
against your "Frank case". Not only that they added a
very self-explaining comment next to the Vlakhs but
they also included a long list of people (Romans,
Germans, Carolingians) among which one has a multitude
of choices for picking the Franks.

     "Many years later the Slavs settled on both sides
          of the Danube[river], where the Hungarian
          land and the Bulgarian one are."

Let's contrast the above quote with Nestor's sentence
"where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands NOW lie." It
is obvious that the 16th century chronicler did not
literally copy from the source but he adjusted the time
frame. Or maybe is just the fault of those biased
English translators :-)

"The Hungarians passed Kiev on the route of the hill
     which is now called the Hungarian one. And they
     arrived at the Dnieper and put up their tents
     there because they roamed in the same manner as
     the Polovetss. The{y} came from the east and moved
     across the high mountains which are now called the
     Hungarian mountains, and they conquered those who
     lived there. And before the Slavs used to live
     there. And the Vlakhs[Rumanians] also moved into
     the land of the Slavs but thereafter the
     Hungarians chased the Vlakhs and settled in that
     land together with the Slavs.

Yeah, I'm definitely getting convinced that there is a
bias here.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

In article >,
N.P.Whittington > wrote:
>I am visiting Romania in July/August and hope to spend a week or so in Hungary
.
>Has anyone any caving contacts in Hungary ?

Your timing might be just perfect as the Hungarian government is about
to cave in during your visit. ;-)

Joe

Arlene Proebsting ) wrote:

: Also, how much should it cost to take a taxi from the airport to the 
: center of town?  Is there a way to ensure that you are not getting 
: ripped off?
I think the best (most convenient) way of getting to the city from the
airport is to take an Airport Minibus. It is not terribly expensive
(something like 200 Ft ($2)), and it goes to every major hotels (possibly
minor ones too), and with a little more extra cost it takes you to any
address in Budapest (but I'm not sure about it). Ask the information at the
airport, they also have leaflets about it.

If you don't mind a little hassle and don't have big luggade, the cheapest
way is to take bus "red 97" (I think the number is) to the bus terminal at
the other end and change to the underground (metro).

Regards,

--
Akos
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Email:          There are times when you have to choose 
 Phone: +44 (0)116 2551551x8099 between being human and having good 
 Fax.:  +44 (0)116 2577692      taste                    Bertolt Brecht
 URL:   http://www.dmu.ac.uk/~redey       
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

In >  () writes:

>In article >, Dan Pop > wrote:
>
>>How about the Hungarian National World Council and the American
>>Hungarian Congress?  If necessary, I can repost the "HUNGARIANS IN THE
>>WEST CALL FOR TRANSYLVANIAN SELF-DETERMINATION" document, submitted by
>>Hon. ROBERT K. DORNAN to the House of Representatives.
>
>Oh, I am not member of either of those orgs, so that would hardly be
>then my company ("& Co."). 

They're pretty much your "company", as far as the ideas expressed (by them
and by you) are concerned.  Your actual membership is irrelevant.

If you have doubts, read the above mentioned document.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

In article >,  > wrote:
>In article >,
>Wojciech Chrostek > wrote:
>>Gyerekek, ahogy illik, Fradika bajnok lett es megnyerte a kupat is.
>>Nem tudom pontosan, vajon-e Pinter Attila meg minding jatszik a
>>Fradiban. Remelem valaki feltudja nekem sorolni a mai Fradi kezdo
>>11-set. Kosz.
>
>De eloszor te aruld el honnan tudsz olyan jol magyarul azzal a nevvel.
>A magyar nyelv nem epp a legkonnyebbek koze tartozik, s ha en idegen
>lennek, biztos valami konnyebbet valasztanek.  A te neved lengyel, vagy
>cseh, igaz?

Nev es nyelv nem feltetlenul fugg ossze. Pl. itt van Olivier, vagy Mohamed 
Aida, magyar vivo. Nevuk nem eppen magyaros, de mindketto remekul tud magyarul.
So"t, gimnaziumban ismertem uruguayi, indonez, portugal es nemet szarmazasu es 
nevu diakokat, akik csak magyarul beszeltek; szuleik valahogy az orszagban 
ragadtak, es ok mar csak magyarul tudtak. Foleg az indonez srac volt erdekes, 
valami abszolut azsiai neve volt, de tokeletes magyar kiejtessel baszelt.

Gabor

In article > Hermes <
> writes:
>Perhaps you think that Western Europe's encouragement, goading, complicity
>and sanctioning of the troubles in former Yugoslavia, and the factual
>dismemberment of that country 'favours no border change'.

I do not see any encouragement to troubles, and I do see the refusal to
change borders of Croatia, Bosnia etc, after their authorities decided to
leave the federation. Because accepting the principle of border changes
would bring up lots of territorial claims in Central Europe and Balkans,
probably causing wars: this is what Western Europe fears.
-- Olivier

In article > , 
writes:
>De kulonben nehezen tudom elkepzelni mit is
>muvelhetett Homan, mint kultuszminiszter, ami miatt haborus fobunosnek
>szamitott.

Megszavazta a háborúba való belépést.

Tamás

In article > , 
writes:
>Ezek utan azert kivancsi lennek hogyan vegezte Szekfu Gyula.

A forrásom ugyanaz (Glatz Ferenc).

"Félve és megfélemlítve.
Szekfü Gyula 1932 után vált politikai irányvonalán. A német
fasizmus előretörését szemmel követve, politikai itéleteinek
mércéje a fasizmus veszélye lesz. Gr. Bethlen István konzer-
vatív antifasizmusához és a katolikus egyház antifasiszta
szárnyához [Szekfü mélyen hívő, buzgó katolikus. K.T.] áll kö-
zel, majd a liberális polgári napilapba , az induló Magyar Nem-
zetbe írja cikksorozatát. Emellett 1942-ig megőrzi barátsá-
gát Hómannal. Közben a szociáldemokratákkal, sőt a kommu-
nistákkal is érintkezésbe kerül.  1944-ben bujkál a nyilasok
elől. Többek között Hóman is segít neki. 1945 után Magyaror-
szág első moszkvai nagykövete. Hóman perében megidézik,
nem megy el, levelet ír: 1932 után nem érintkezett Hómannal.
Nem mondott igazat. Moszkvában ismét kitör rajta fiatalkori
baja, az alkoholizmus. Megírja saját és a magyar keresztény
középosztály felfogásának durva kritikáját. Nem vették úgy-
mond észre, hogy a szomszédban milyen hatalmas állam, a
Szovjetunió fejlődött ki az elmúlt években. (Forradalom 
után, 1947) Egy-egy remek tanulmány (az öreg Kossuthról,
az értelmiségi középosztályról) mellett néhány vergődéses
újságcikket ír (Lenint, sőt Rákosit méltatja). Kirakatember,
akit tanszéki szobájában is ellenőriznek, s akit másodosz-
tályú ujdondászok szakmailag agyonbírálnak, de akit nagy
betegen is a semmi hatalmat nem jelentő Elnöki Tanács
tagjának tesznek meg. 1955-ben, mindenkitől magára hagy-
va, hosszú betegség után hal meg."

Tamás

In article > Mark Cristian > writes:
>What if 'authorities' in Alsacia and Lorena decided to leave France ?
>Perhaps to strike out on their own, or to join Germany ? 

They are not in a federative frame. But even as they are: if elected regional
councils had a majority for that, there could be a referendum like a few
years ago in New-Caledonia (which had been negative) - but it would not make
a lot of a difference when you already just drive through the border almost
without noticing (Schengen agreements). I wish it would be the same at the
Hungarian-Romanian border, it would mean real progress towards democracy!
-- Olivier

 (CLARY Olivier) wrote:
>
> I do not see any encouragement to troubles, and I do see the refusal to
> change borders of Croatia, Bosnia etc, after their authorities decided to
> leave the federation. 
> -- Olivier

What if 'authorities' in Alsacia and Lorena decided to leave France ?
Perhaps to strike out on their own, or to join Germany ? 
What is good for the goose, may one day be good for the gander as well !


m. cristian

Hi.  My friend is having his birthday on July 7th.  His name is Andrew
Freeman and he'll be 21.  He is really interested in your topic, and,
regardless of your own interests, would love to get e-mail from any of you
wishing him a happy birthday.  Thanks a lot.

His address is   

Kedves Gotthard:

Please circulate this letter to everyone on the Hung. list.   Thanks, Judy	

Mindenki--

For those of you who did NOT attend the Magyar's "Sympo" (Hungarian Folk Dance
and Folk Music Symposium) the week of June 22 to 29, you missed a great and
wonderful time!  The dance instruction, mainly on Sarkozi and Gyorgyfalvi
dialects, was presented superbly by Zoltan "Zsura" Zsurafski and Zsuzsa
"Zsuszika" Vincze.  Zsura also worked separately with the men on a "legyenes"
dance for the Sarkozi dialect, and Zsuzsi worked with the women on a Karikazo
for the same dialect.  Music lessons were given by every member of Meta, plus
Halmos Bela and Balogh Kalman, on a variety of instruments.  Zsuzsi also gave
additional optional singing lessons to women, and we learned songs from Szek an
d
Mesoseg and even a couple of shouts from Kalotaszeg.  Incredible, incredible
time.

We really want more people to attend next year, so the key is to register early
and let the Magyars know what your needs are.  If you're a beginning dancer
and/or musician, they will make the proper arrangements.  Don't let all the hig
h
levels of everything intimidate you--I'm a musical "nulla", and I learned to
play the citera (one song)!   And even the food was better this year--go figure
!

If you're confused about how to get on their mailing list, write me and I will
arrange to have you added.  Please write to me at .

Viszontlatasra!

Judy Bressler

Hermes ) wrote:
: Yes, I am resentful and hostile to Western European patronizing 
: interventionism and meddling in the affairs of the new democracies of Eastern
: Europe. 

Sure.   But when they favored Romania -- the French offered them TS in 
exchange to switch side in WWI -- then I guess your opinion would be 
a little different.  Hypocrisus superlativus.  :-)

Isabel Van Waes ) wrote:


hello Budapest, I am Isabel Van Waes, a belgian student who is coming to 
Budapest next year from september till january.
Could anybody help me finding a room, i also heard that there is a
international studentshouse..
The price is no problem, I have a grant.

I am taking lessons at the Eotvos Lorand university (faculty of arts), and my 
courses are in the isabellau. or something like that.
if u help me i could come over myself to find a room.
lease help me, i will buy u a beer when i will get there!

Hello:

I have posted before on s.c.m.; however, I have new information on my 
attempt to find my family in Hungary.  My father escaped while being held 
a Russian Prisoner in either late 1956 or early 1957.  He came to the 
U.S. and later died in 1968.  My mother died in 1970.  My sisters and I 
have tried for nearly 20 years to find our family.  We know our 
grandfather, Szasz Janos and Pal Julianna, lived in Szazholembatta.  I 
have a few photos with them and two other boys dated in the early 
1960's.  I know that just before my mother died she had a letter from my 
grandparents.  I thought my uncle's name was Szasz Sandor, but I could be 
wrong.  The following information is taken from the only photographs I 
have of the family.  I tell you in advance that the writing was difficult 
to read and I do not speak Hungarian so I may not have spelled words 
correctly.  I apologize in advance.  

Please, if anyone is willing to translate some, or all of what these 
pictures have on the back, or if you recognize a name, please e-mail me 
at     
#1:  picture is of a man, woman in bridal gown, and older woman (I think
our grandmother).  On the back is says:  itndra's kuldi sak szeretetel a
Sza'sz isalz'd nak of merika'ba.  Dateed Sza'zhalambata 1960 XI 15.

#2:  Man and Woman, young boy and girl standing by trees.  On the back it
says:  Emlekul kirlolo'm Fzaiz familia, az uetvaron van esino'lva.  Fzl'n
Ja'nos.  1957 IX 23 in BP.
  
#4:  Man and women sitting (I'm sure this is Szaz Janos Sr. and
Pal Julianna) with three children.  The oldest appears to be
about 15 and this is my father, the next is about 7 years, and
the youngest is a baby in the mothers arms.  On the back it
says:  Dunabogda'ny  1949 X 15.  ides fiam eszteta kepet kuldom amas is
kesz lebz kuldom.  It is a post card and appears to be addressed to:
Szasz Fa'un, Frauerskamajy, esala'de mell.

#5:  The picture is a young man and a woman (I believe the young man is
the 7 year old in picture #4).  On the back it says:  Sok szeretetel
kuldom eszta ke'pet Ba'tya'm nak is isaladj a'nak  Ka'roly e's Teri.  The
date is 1961 V 23 Magyarorozage.

#6:  The picture is a group of four women and four men and 1 boy.  The
boy appears in later pictures.  On the back it says:  emlikul az if Szasz
isaladnak.  The picture is dated 1960 XII 22 Szazhalambatta.

#7:  The picture is my father and a woman.  On the back it says Fogade
kin enliket oljan szenetettel nint a nityen szenetettel kudjuk.  Kotica
e's Nini.  There is no date on the picture.

The next three pictures are of the same people and taken on the same date
1957 VIII 5.  They appear to be my grandparents and the two boys who were
much younger in picture #4.  #8 is a family picture, #9 is the middle
child (with my father being what I believe as the oldest child in the
family), and #10 the youngest child.  This is what they say on the back
of each photo:                     
#8:  Szeretetel kuldjuk edesapa'd e'desanya'd e's testve'peid.

#9:  sak szeretetel orak emle'kul Ba'tyannak   Ka'roly

#10  sak szerstetel kuldom dnaga a ba'tya'mnak ameszi ta'volba   Sanyika

#11:  The photo is of a young man.  On the back it says Emle'kul
jancsinak Andristol.  It is dated 1957 IX 29 e'n Szaszhalombatta
Jancziska Puszta.

The next five photographs are my father with a variety of other men.  All
the men are wearing uniforms.

#12:  Two men (one my father);  the names on the back are David Fenenez
and Szasz Janos (my father).  The picture is dated 1956 VIII 9.  Nagyhanesa

#13  One man my father; the name on the back is my father's, Szsz Janos
and is dated 1956 IX 20 Nagyhanesa        

#14:  Two men; the names on the back are Baki Kanaly  Barlos Natyas.
Dated 1956 IX 26 Nagyhanesa.

#15:  Five men; one of them is my father.  On the back it has the
following names:  Bonos Sa'nlo's,  Alma'si Be'la, Szaba' Istua'n, Jalh
Sa'ndor, Sza'sz Ja'nos.  Dated 1956 IX 20, Nagyhancra.

#16:  This picture is a group of 11 men and the back ground is the banks
of a river.  On the back the picture has the following names:  Szoke
Jozsef, Pribe'li Jozsef, Jalh Sandor , Szabo Istra'm, Suga'n Auka'ol,
Klamkechi Islu'an, Bankos Natya's, Mangizai Atila, Kis Feneno, Szasz
Janos, Baki Kanaly

The last two pictures are of a group of men.  All but two of the men are
wearing white hats and white jackets or aprons.  The other two men are in
uniforms.  The names of the people are on the back of each and both are
dated 1956 IX 22 Nagyhancsa.  Here are the names on the back of each photo.

#17:  Kocsis Fenencz, Konegs Gyongy, Tamsey Layos, Bernnaid 
Andra'r, Figuna Gyula, Va'go' Ka'naly, Sza'sz Ja'nos.  

#18:  Sza'sz Ja'nos, Va'ga' Ka'naly, Tamsey Layo's, Figuna Gyula, Kocsis
Fenencz, Bennaid Andra'r.

Two other photos seem to be  very strange.  They are pictures of people
inserted onto some sort of card.  Once is a picture of my father.  On the
front of the card it is printed Sziv Kuldi szivnek.  On the back is
written Soha elneu fellslo enolo emle'ruil Youvasita'l Yolira'nok.  Bu.
1953 nov 10.  The other card has nothing written on the back.  It is a
picture of a man in uniform (different from the other men in uniforms)
the card has pink and yello roses on it and is printed with these words
on the top:  Szi'v kuldi szi'vnek szi'vesen.


Thank you in advance to anyone who is willing to assist me in finding my 
family.  I know that my grandparents are now deceased, however, I want to 
find my family desperately.


Sincerely,
Ms. Tomie Burke

Isabel Van Waes ) wrote:

In article >,  (
Janos Szamosfalvi) writes:
|> Hermes ) wrote:
|> : Yes, I am resentful and hostile to Western European patronizing 
|> : interventionism and meddling in the affairs of the new democracies of East
ern
|> : Europe. 
|> 
|> Sure.   But when they favored Romania -- the French offered them TS in 
|> exchange to switch side in WWI -- then I guess your opinion would be 
|> a little different.  Hypocrisus superlativus.  :-)

What side switching are you talking about?
During World War I the Central Powers tempted Romania to side with them by 
offering to restore Bessarabia. The scales were tipped in favour of the Allies,
 
however, by counteroffers of Transylvania and Bukovina, as well as by the 
Francophile sentiment of the Romanian people, so that by 1916 Romania was fight
ing
as Russia's ally. The revolutionary and nationalist ferment in the Russian
Empire spread quickly to Bessarabia, which proclaimed support for the moderate 
Socialist Revolutionary Aleksandr Kerensky in March 1917. In April the National
 
Moldovan Committee demanded autonomy, land reform, and the use of the Romanian 
language; similar rights were claimed for the Moldovans, about 400,000 in numbe
r, 
settled east of the Nistru. A move toward complete independence was
encouraged by events in Ukraine, and in November 1917 a council known as Sfatul
 
Tarii was set up on the model of the Kiev Rada. On Dec. 15, 1917, the Sfat 
proclaimed Bessarabia an autonomous constituent republic of the Federation of 
Russian Republics. Disorders caused by the revolutionary Russian soldiery led t
he 
Sfat to appeal to the Allies' representatives and to the Romanian government at
Iasi for military help, whereupon the Bolsheviks occupied Chisinau in January 1
918.
They were driven out by Romanian forces within two weeks; and on February 6 the
 
Sfat, again following Kiev, proclaimed Bessarabia an independent Moldovan repub
lic,
renouncing all ties with Russia. Recognizing the economic impossibility of 
isolation and alarmed by the pretensions of the German-sponsored Ukrainian
government, the Sfat voted for conditional union with Romania in April 1918. 
Reservations about the union were abandoned with the defeat of the Central Powe
rs 
and the creation of Greater Romania, andunconditional union was voted at the fi
nal session of the Sfat in December 1918. The union of
Bessarabia with Romania was recognized by a treaty (part of the Paris Peace 
Conference) signed on Oct. 28, 1920, by Romania, Great Britain, France, Italy, 
and Japan; the treaty eventually was ratified by all signatories but Japan. 
The Soviet Union never recognized Romania's right to the province, and in 1924 
it established the tiny Moldavian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic on
Ukrainian territory across the Dniester. The frontier along the Dniester was 
closed, but railway connections were reestablished in 1936, two years after the
 
resumption of diplomatic relations.

As for Romanian army helping Hungarians get rid of bolshevic Béla Kun, I'm
waiting for Joe Pannon's comments :-)

Ted

M. Cristian writes:
> Words, words, words. You have no regard for truth, historical or 
otherwise,
> but for your self serving, hare brained historical fantasies. You are 
hostile
> to the self determination of the nations of Eastern Europe, and just as 
your
> nazi mentors you are abusing and inflaming the 'minority' issues in those
> countries. A transparent regret for the 'good ol' times of the 
> Austo-HUNGARIAN empire, and a desire to revive that dinasaurus.

Several years ago during a visy to Belgrade, I have checked the last 
Yoguslav census for Voyvodina. While I do not remeber the exact numbers, in 
1940 the largest population in Voyvodina was Hungarian, followed by Germans 
(mainly Schwabians) then Serbs followed by Croats, Romanians and so on.
This was not a Hungarian but an official Yugoslav census. In the post WW II
period the Germans were expelled and most of their places were given to 
incoming Serbs. I am pretty sure that the Serbs today, particularly after 
the recent additional immigration from BH are in majority. However, please 
lets remember that one has to judge "vanchism" just as one judges 
"revanchism". You can't always start a case by hitting back.

Regards,Jeliko

Please, reply to John's address directly.
Thank,
Gotthard
--
Hungarian-American list, mailto:  
WWW,                       http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 95 22:05:38 -700
From: John Raffler >
Subject: In search for a Friend

Gentlemen,
Greetings from Norman Oklahoma. My name is John Raffler and 
aproximately two years ago I had th pleasure to meet with a Stu-
dent from Budapest who was visiting relatives here. I beleive
he has studied Physical Education at the University of Budapest.
His name Toth Csaba Csongor his telephone in Budapest at that
time 1-xxxxxx 
( Please, ask John Raffler directly, I do not want 
  to make it public - GSS )
I have no ways of knowing where he  is now, if you could somehow find out 
his whereabouts I would really appre ciate it. I hope to hear from you soon. 
Thank you in advance
John Raffler. 
I can also be written to in German language.

In article >,  (
Janos Szamosfalvi) writes:
|> Hermes ) wrote:
|> : Yes, I am resentful and hostile to Western European patronizing 
|> : interventionism and meddling in the affairs of the new democracies of East
ern
|> : Europe. 
|> 
|> Sure.   But when they favored Romania -- the French offered them TS in 
|> exchange to switch side in WWI -- then I guess your opinion would be 
|> a little different.  Hypocrisus superlativus.  :-)

What site switching are you talking about?
During World War I the Central Powers tempted Romania to side with them by 
offering to restore Bessarabia. The scales were tipped in favour of the Allies,
 
however, by counteroffers of Transylvania and Bukovina, as well as by the 
Francophile sentiment of the Romanian people, so that by 1916 Romania was fight
ing
as Russia's ally. The revolutionary and nationalist ferment in the Russian
Empire spread quickly to Bessarabia, which proclaimed support for the moderate 
Socialist Revolutionary Aleksandr Kerensky in March 1917. In April the National
 
Moldovan Committee demanded autonomy, land reform, and the use of the Romanian 
language; similar rights were claimed for the Moldovans, about 400,000 in numbe
r, 
settled east of the Nistru. A move toward complete independence was
encouraged by events in Ukraine, and in November 1917 a council known as Sfatul
 
Tarii was set up on the model of the Kiev Rada. On Dec. 15, 1917, the Sfat 
proclaimed Bessarabia an autonomous constituent republic of the Federation of 
Russian Republics. Disorders caused by the revolutionary Russian soldiery led t
he 
Sfat to appeal to the Allies' representatives and to the Romanian government at
Iasi for military help, whereupon the Bolsheviks occupied Chisinau in January 1
918.
They were driven out by Romanian forces within two weeks; and on February 6 the
 
Sfat, again following Kiev, proclaimed Bessarabia an independent Moldovan repub
lic,
renouncing all ties with Russia. Recognizing the economic impossibility of 
isolation and alarmed by the pretensions of the German-sponsored Ukrainian
government, the Sfat voted for conditional union with Romania in April 1918. 
Reservations about the union were abandoned with the defeat of the Central Powe
rs 
and the creation of Greater Romania, andunconditional union was voted at the fi
nal session of the Sfat in December 1918. The union of
Bessarabia with Romania was recognized by a treaty (part of the Paris Peace 
Conference) signed on Oct. 28, 1920, by Romania, Great Britain, France, Italy, 
and Japan; the treaty eventually was ratified by all signatories but Japan. 
The Soviet Union never recognized Romania's right to the province, and in 1924 
it established the tiny Moldavian Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic on
Ukrainian territory across the Dniester. The frontier along the Dniester was 
closed, but railway connections were reestablished in 1936, two years after the
 
resumption of diplomatic relations.

As for Romanian army helping Hungarians get rid of bolshevic Béla Kun, I'm
waiting for Joe Pannon's comments :-)

Ted

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
From:        (Janos Szamosfalvi)
 
Hermes ) wrote:
: Yes, I am resentful and hostile to Western European patronizing 
: interventionism and meddling in the affairs of the new democracies of
Eastern
: Europe. 

Sure.   But when they favored Romania -- the French offered them TS in 
exchange to switch side in WWI -- then I guess your opinion would be 
a little different.  Hypocrisus superlativus.  :-)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I was out for the 4-th of July vacation and when I got back I found out that
Panonescu has started again some flame war about Magyar teritory.
This subject is like an old tape that gets played over and over again.
Looks like Janos had gulash for the 4-th rather than American steak and
is back at lessons of History.
Since when did Romania switch sides in WWI ?
I don't remember Romania fighting in WWI for the Central Powers.
By the way, although I don't fully agree with Mark Cristian's comments,
I believe he is refering to present day Western Europe and to the
consequences of EU involvement in Yugoslavia. (which did not have
so far any clear positive impact).
So Janos darling, try some mamaliga (polenta) with your gulash and maybe
will lower the temperature a bit, after all is July and already hot to speak of
.

By the way, Panonescu has been "out with Matyas's geese" for quite
some time and the intelligence has apparently rubbed off.
Don't let that happend to you !

Adrian