At 08:10 PM 2/24/97 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>Look at what is
>happening with the farmers in Hungary at the very moment. The agricultural
>sector has been a fairly pampered lot for many, many years. Lately, for
>example, their first 1 million-forint income was not at all taxed. The
>government now tried to make these guys--who are quite well off, by the
>way--pay their fair share of taxes. Result: fighting tooth and nail and
>organizing road blocks all over Hungary. Meanwhile, they refuse to negotiate
>with the government. Their representative simply don't show up because they
>know that a roadblockade will be devastating for the country and sooner or
>later the government will give in. Meanwhile, you hear that Hungarian
>agriculture receives twice as much money as Hungarian education!
>

And,  to add insult to injury, the farmers are grossly overproducing certain
crops. Many of them had to destroy large quantities of unwanted produce. The
way it goes, they'll follow the American example: the government will pay
farmers not to plant.

By the way, to Kristof: as you can see, you are not alone here.

Gabor D. Farkas

welcome back again, even if it4s short remarks only.

Kezcsokom
Miklos

At 09:43 PM 2/24/97 GMT, MDtoCEO > wrote:

>Health care, pensions, etc. may have been stated to be free, perhaps were
>even believed to be free, but will anyone who lived in Hungary in the
>1980's seriously argue that they were?
>
>As a practical matter, government disburses about 40% of what it collects,
>which begs the question -- why not leave the money in the hands of those
>who earned it, and let them pay for those services they use.  Elsewise,
>you have people who don't get sick being forced (taxes are compulsory) to
>pay the hospital costs of those that do, and those with no children
>supporting the education of the offspring of others.
>
>I have no objection to the wealthy freely providing service and assistance
>to the less fortunate.  Evidence is strong that if left alone, most of the
>well-to-do will make sizeable donations to worthwhile causes.  But I do
>object to being forced to pay taxes, and being castigated for being
>"insensitive" when I desire not to.  I also reject the notion that
>government is better able to take care of the people than the people
>themselves are.
>
>Am I alone here?
>
>Kristof

You're probably not alone in your views.  However, if you agitate for the
above, I agitate for social revolution.  Eventually you'll understand that
you live in society and that you have obligations to others.  The world is
not here just for you and yours.  And too bad if you object to paying taxes.
Who should the government tax?  The poor?  Poverty?  Government can only tax
wealth!  It's the only way to raise money for the common good (which by
definition includes you, too).  Pity a world where the less fortunate have
to depend on the good will of the well-to-do.  Shall the poor turn to the
priests, again!, for charity?  Not on your life!

Joe Szalai

Dear Colleagues,

The First international environmental lawsuit ever is starting next Monday. A
week from today, next Tuesday, every newspaper, radio and TV station of the
World will be reporting on the Danube lawsuit.

Please use the remaining week to prepare for this date: the 4th of March!

Have your position papers, press releases and letters to the editors ready.
Use this week to make sure that you have the e-mail, fax or snail-mail
addresses of the papers you read, the names of their editors, the addresses
of the radio/TV stations you listen to, the names of the people you want to
contact there, and most importantly; organise your thoughts, research your
facts, have your letter ready to be mailed first thing next Tuesday.

If you need further facts, visit our continuously updated web-page at:
http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm

We did not yet have time to include the recent paper "Applications of
International Water Law to Transboundary Groundwater Resources, and the
Slovak-Hungarian Dispute" by Gabriel Eckstein of the American University of
Washington. You can get a copy  by writing to: 

Please also note that the International Copurt of Justice just elected its
new president in the person of the outstanding American law-professor: Dr.
Stephen Schwebel. Being an American and the Danube lawsuit being his first
case, he is likely to be sensitive and open to the views of
environmentalists. His fax: 011-31-70-3649-928

If you plan to take part in the environmentalist picket on Carnegie Plein, in
front of the International Court of Justice, please make sure that your signs
show respect and trust in the ICJ. They must show that the environmentalists
resp[ect the international legal system and consider the individual judges as
our allies. It must be clear to all, that the demonstration is not directed
against the ICJ, but against the stalinist gigantomania of the construction
lobbies, and against the illegal acts of non-democratic governments. Please
keep the picket totally silent and let our position papers do the talking. 

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Dear Colleagues,

The Hungarian Lobby would like to take part in the effort to build a Korosi
Csoma memorial building in Kovaszna, Transylvania. "Brick-tickets" have been
printed for that purpose. We are looking for someone, preferably one
connected with a tax-exempt organization, who would be willing to direct and
administer this operation in the United States. Please let me know, if you
are.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Dear Colleagues,

The First international environmental lawsuit ever is starting next Monday. A
week from today, next Tuesday, every newspaper, radio and TV station of the
World will be reporting on the Danube lawsuit.

Please use the remaining week to prepare for this date: the 4th of March!

Have your position papers, press releases and letters to the editors ready.
Use this week to make sure that you have the e-mail, fax or snail-mail
addresses of the papers you read, the names of their editors, the addresses
of the radio/TV stations you listen to, the names of the people you want to
contact there, and most importantly; organise your thoughts, research your
facts, have your letter ready to be mailed first thing next Tuesday.

If you need further facts, visit our continuously updated web-page at:
http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm

We did not yet have time to include the recent paper "Applications of
International Water Law to Transboundary Groundwater Resources, and the
Slovak-Hungarian Dispute" by Gabriel Eckstein of the American University of
Washington. You can get a copy  by writing to: 

Please also note that the International Copurt of Justice just elected its
new president in the person of the outstanding American law-professor: Dr.
Stephen Schwebel. Being an American and the Danube lawsuit being his first
case, he is likely to be sensitive and open to the views of
environmentalists. His fax: 011-31-70-3649-928

If you plan to take part in the environmentalist picket on Carnegie Plein, in
front of the International Court of Justice, please make sure that your signs
show respect and trust in the ICJ. They must show that the environmentalists
resp[ect the international legal system and consider the individual judges as
our allies. It must be clear to all, that the demonstration is not directed
against the ICJ, but against the stalinist gigantomania of the construction
lobbies, and against the illegal acts of non-democratic governments. Please
keep the picket totally silent and let our position papers do the talking.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Dear Colleagues,

The Hungarian Lobby would like to take part in the effort to build a Korosi
Csoma memorial building in Kovaszna, Transylvania. "Brick-tickets" have been
printed for that purpose. We are looking for someone, preferably one
connected with a tax-exempt organization, who would be willing to direct and
administer this operation in the United States. Please let me know, if you
are.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Tisztelt Honfitarsam!

Jovo hetfon kezdodik a Duna-per. Jovo kedden a vilag osszes lapja, minden TV
es radio allomasa az emberiseg elso kornyezetvedelmi pererol fog irni.
Keszuljunk fol! Szemely szerint kerem Ont, hogy ne csak figyelni keszuljon,
de tenni is!

Kerem, gondolja at, hogy On milyen (nem magyar nyelvu) ujsagokat olvas,
milyen (nem magyar nyelvu) radio vagy TV adasokat hallgat, s hasznalja ki ezt
a hetet arra, hogy osszeirja azok cimeit, szerkesztoinek neveit, megcimezi a
boritekokat es megfogalmazza mondandojat. Kerem Ont, hogy a jovo het
keddjenek reggelen azzal adja le szavazatat a Duna vedelmeben, hogy BEDOBJA A
POSTALADABA ezeket, a hetvegen mar megirt leveleit.

Mivel a sajto es media sok levelet, nyilatkozatot fog kapni jovo kedden,
valoszinu, hogy a per egyes vonatkozasait illetoen kulon-kulon leveleket
kozolnek majd a lapok. Ezert javasolnam, hogy On mar most hatarozza el, hogy
az alabbi lehetseges temakorok kozul On mirol is kivan irni? Nem az a fontos,
hogy minden level mindent elmondjon, az a fontos, hogy amint mondunk az
100%-ban igaz legyen, s higgadtan, targyilagosan, de elvi megalkuvast
elutasitoan irodjek. Tehat a lehetseges temak:

Kornyezetvedelem
Egeszsegugy
Ivoviz
Energia
Hajozas
Kompromisszum Terv
Nemzetkozi jog hatarfolyo precedensei
Parisi Bekeszerzodes
ENSZ Alapokmany
Szoviet szerep, stb
Szlovak es magyar koltsegek
stb.

Ha levelenek, nyilatkozatanak megirasahoz tovabbi adatra, informaciora lenne
szuksege, kerem latogassa meg honlapunkat:

http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm

Egy fontos, a hatartersegek talajvizere vonatkozo nemzetkozi jogot targyalo
dokumentumot meg nem volt idonk a honlapunkra feltenni. Azt egyenesen
kerherik az American University igazgatojatol, Gabriel Ecksteintol:

 

Mivel a hagai nemzetkozi birosag most valasztotta meg uj elnoket, a vilaghiru
amerikai jogaszprofesszor, Dr. Stephen Schwebel szemelyeben, s mivel egyreszt
koztudott az o kornyezetvedelmi erzekenysege, masreszt, mivel ez az elso per,
melyen O elnokol, bizonyos, hogy erzekeny a laikus kozvelemenyre is.

Fax szama (az USA-bol): 011-31-70-3649-928

Amennyiben On reszt szandekszik venni a Duna perrel kapcsolatos nema
picketeleseken/felvonulasokon akar a Nemzetkozi Birosag epuletevel szemben a
hagai Carnegie Pleinen, akar a Szigetkozben, ugy nagyon kerem, hogy angol
nyelvu feliratait, transzparenset ugy fogalmazza, hogy azokbol vilagosan
kitunjon  a magyar nep abszolut bizalma ugy a birosag tagjai, mint a
nemzetkozi jogrend fele.
 (Nagyon kerem, ne emlegessuk Trianont vagy azt, hogy hany honap alatt
foglaltuk el Szerbiat, mit tettunk 48 vagy 56-ban.) Egyszoval ne
kovetelozzunk, ne fenyegetozzunk, hanem meltosaggal es magatolertetodoen
jelezzuk: a magyar nep tudja, hogy a  nemzetkozi jog szamara is biztositani
fogaj az igazsagot.

Nincs karosabb, nincs felhaboritobb, mint amikor egy riporter megkerdezi,
hogy szerintem a birosag kinek fog igazat adni, az utonallonak vagy a
kirabolt aldozatnak? Legyen vilagos, hogy nekunk ilyen ketsegunk nincs! Es
ezert legyen vilagos az is, hogy a mi ellenfelunk nem a birosag, hanem a
penzehes es kornyezetrombolo vizugyi lobbi meg az oket tamogato
anti-demokratikus es torvenyserto politikusok. Legyen vilagos, hogy mi a
kirabolt es torvenytisztelo aldozatok vagyunk. Es vegezetul, legyenek
demonstracioink NEMAK, hagyjuk hogy az elore elkeszitett nyilatkozatok es
transzparensek szoljanak helyettunk, ne a pillanat hangulata.

Nagyon kerem, hogy ha On szerint e level osszhangban van egy On altal ismert
magyar drotpostai lista jellegevel, kerem tovabbitsa azt oda is, hogy igy
minel tobbunkhoz eljusson.

Oszinte tisztelettel: Liptak Bela

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT

Background:
  Please help to convince vice president Al Gore to make a statement
in favour for Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached new form
letter. Al Gore will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters. 
  Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!!

What to do:
  Please ask vice president Al Gore to make a statement in favour for 
the environment of Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached NEW form 
letter. Al Gore will only take notice if he receives thousands of letters. 
  Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!! SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!!

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, DC  20001
(E-Mail:  )

Dear Mr. Vice President:

On August 21, 1993, you wrote to Professor Bela Liptak about
your concern for the Danube ecosystem.  Today humankind is approaching
an important precedent:  On March 3, 1997, the International Court of
Justice will start proceedings in the first international
environmental lawsuit in The Hague.

The ICJ will decide a case involving the Danube and the destruction of
its ancient wetland region, the Szigetkoz.  This name, loosely
translated, means "region of a thousand islands,"  yet today there is
not a single island left there, because the water is gone.  

However, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just
one river or just the 400 endangered species of one ancient ecosystem.
This lawsuit will set a precedent for the whole planet and will answer
a much more basic question:  Do national governments have the right to
do as they please with our ecosystems, or does humankind as a whole
have a right to protect the rich natural treasures which belong to all
of us?

Mr. Vice President, in 1995 nine international environmental NGOs
submitted a memorial to ICJ, which its president, the Honorable
Mohammed Bedjaoui, has accepted.  A Compromise Plan was also submitted
to the Court; this Plan would guarantee the restoration of the ancient
Szigetkoz wetlands, together with fulfilling the water supply,
shipping and energy needs of the region.  For details of this Plan and
for other aspects of the lawsuit, please ask Bela Liptak or visit the
web site at:  http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm .

Dear Mr. Gore:  It is very important that the first international
environmental lawsuit be given the media attention it deserves. The
Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment can inform you of the
details.  A statement by you can guarantee that attention; please make
such a statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, title and address>

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT

Background:
  Please help to convince vice president Al Gore to make a statement
in favour for Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached new form
letter. Al Gore will only take notice if he receives thousands of
letters.
  Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!!

What to do:
  Please ask vice president Al Gore to make a statement in favour for
the environment of Szigetkoz. Feel free to use the attached NEW form
letter. Al Gore will only take notice if he receives thousands of letters.
  Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!! SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!!

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

<date>

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
The White House
Washington, DC  20001
(E-Mail:  )

Dear Mr. Vice President:

On August 21, 1993, you wrote to Professor Bela Liptak about
your concern for the Danube ecosystem.  Today humankind is approaching
an important precedent:  On March 3, 1997, the International Court of
Justice will start proceedings in the first international
environmental lawsuit in The Hague.

The ICJ will decide a case involving the Danube and the destruction of
its ancient wetland region, the Szigetkoz.  This name, loosely
translated, means "region of a thousand islands,"  yet today there is
not a single island left there, because the water is gone.

However, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just
one river or just the 400 endangered species of one ancient ecosystem.
This lawsuit will set a precedent for the whole planet and will answer
a much more basic question:  Do national governments have the right to
do as they please with our ecosystems, or does humankind as a whole
have a right to protect the rich natural treasures which belong to all
of us?

Mr. Vice President, in 1995 nine international environmental NGOs
submitted a memorial to ICJ, which its president, the Honorable
Mohammed Bedjaoui, has accepted.  A Compromise Plan was also submitted
to the Court; this Plan would guarantee the restoration of the ancient
Szigetkoz wetlands, together with fulfilling the water supply,
shipping and energy needs of the region.  For details of this Plan and
for other aspects of the lawsuit, please ask Bela Liptak or visit the
web site at:  http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm .

Dear Mr. Gore:  It is very important that the first international
environmental lawsuit be given the media attention it deserves. The
Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment can inform you of the
details.  A statement by you can guarantee that attention; please make
such a statement.

Respectfully,

<Your name, title and address>

Many thanks to those who responded last week to my post about the proposed
Flower Dictionary. Even though my mail box did not get flooded with
comments and suggestions, as Joe Szalai predicted, I am encouraged to post
again to describe how things going.

The following four new flowers has been added to the list:

Centaurea cyanus
   Bachelor's-button, blue cornflower  Ke'k bu'zavira'g
Colchicum arenarium
   Common crocus, medow saffron        Homoki kikirics
Galanthus nivalis
   Snowdrops                           Ho'vira'g
Ranunculus repens
   Creeping buttercup                  Bogla'rka

I am still searching for the common English name of these flowers:

   Consolida                           Szarkala'b
   Helianthus tuberosus                Csicso'ka
   Ocimum                              Bazsalikom
   Polianthes Tuberosa                 Tubaro'zsa
   Sempervivum                         Ko"vira'g
   Stipa                               A'rvala'nyhaj

and for the common Hungarian name of these flowers:

   Angelica                            Angelica
   Aruncus                             Goat's beard
   Coronilla varia                     Crown vetch
   Delphinium                          Delphinium
   Geranium sanguineum                 Crane's bill
   Liatris                             Gay feather

I hope to conclude this effort in about two weeks. When completed I will
deposit it in the HIX Documentar, so anybody who wants it can retrieve it,
or alternatively I will mail it to those who ask for it.

Barna Bozoki

Barna:
<snip>
According to the Hamlyn Book of Garden Flowers by Vladimir Mo:lzer, the
following is documented.  Still looking at others.  Will get back to you.

>I am still searching for the common English name of these flowers:
>
>   Consolida                           Szarkala'b
I have found a Delphinium consolida, but have not found reference to
Consolida alone.  The former is "larkspur"

>   Helianthus tuberosus                Csicso'ka
This one is odd.  Helianthus is derived from the latin word Helios (sun)
and Anthos (flower) = Helianthus annuus, for which the common name is
"sunflower".  Tuberosus would indicate a plant grown from a bulb, but
sunflowers are grown from seed.  Could it possibly be a new hybrid of the
traditional sunflower?

>   Ocimum                              Bazsalikom  "Sweet Basil"

>   Polianthes Tuberosa                 Tubaro'zsa "Tuberous Begonia"
This is a wild guess, stemming from the fact that I once bought one for my
grandmother, who called it "Tubarozsa".

>   Sempervivum                         Ko"vira'g         "Houseleeks"

>   Stipa                               A'rvala'nyhaj   "Spear Grass"

Hope this is of help.  In Hungary, I have only ever seen Liatrus called
just that "Liatrus".  I'ts a favoured flower of mine for which no one has
ever been able to furnish a common Hungarian name so far.  I think that you
might change that.

Good luck.
Best regards
Aniko

Agnes wrote :

<And - for me at least - the main message of the film is
<that there were people who remained decent during an era when being
<indecent was in style.

INDEED

( well, not in style only. Inherently. )

Miklos

Kristof wrote :
<Health care, pensions, etc. may have been stated to be free, perhaps were
<even believed to be free, but will anyone who lived in Hungary in the
<1980's seriously argue that they were?

<As a practical matter, government disburses about 40% of what it collects,
<which begs the question -- why not leave the money in the hands of those
<who earned it, and let them pay for those services they use.  Elsewise,
<you have people who don't get sick being forced (taxes are compulsory) to
<pay the hospital costs of those that do, and those with no children
<supporting the education of the offspring of others.

<I have no objection to the wealthy freely providing service and assistance
<to the less fortunate.  Evidence is strong that if left alone, most of the
<well-to-do will make sizeable donations to worthwhile causes.  But I do
<object to being forced to pay taxes, and being castigated for being
<"insensitive" when I desire not to.  I also reject the notion that
<government is better able to take care of the people than the people
<themselves are.

<Am I alone here?

You will always find people agreeing with portions of a statement
saying hurrah to the statement. The troubel is, your statement is
one of those oversimplified ones, very suitable to earn noisy sup-
port, especcially after the fifth malt, or bourbon, if you prefer.

I agree with parts of it, I was quite frequently fighting that strugle,
whether in the old or in the new country. Thus, it4s a pity that the
whole thing is overdone...
Could we try : less government ( but no no.. )
             : less redistribution via burocracy ( etc )
             : less taxation ( depending very much on the ( etc )
               specific country, the specific situation, however )( etc )
             : less intervention, less regulation
             : less telling other nations with wich other nations they are
               allowed to trade,...
             : less protectionism
We need      : more voluntary contributions, more sponsoring
             : we need more handling our fates ourselves
             : more market mechanisms
             : more solidarity between allies,
             : more, AND TIMELY, solidarity with those in Srebrenica
etc, etc

But there is a necessity that individuals whether poor, or, yes wealthy
don4t only use society, but serve it, too . and if alone for the sake of
stability. But certainly not only that. Care has to be taken for people,
who cannot care for themselves, etc. An attitude not willing to pay taxes
WHEN I DESIRE NOT TO does lead to chaos, socialism, and other hells.

No, you are not alone here. Yes, you are alone here.
World is a bit more complicated than this proclamition sounded...

Peace.
Miklos

At 04:29 PM 2/25/97 -0400, Aniko Dunford wrote:

<snip>
>>   Consolida                           Szarkala'b
>I have found a Delphinium consolida, but have not found reference to
>Consolida alone.  The former is "larkspur"

Yes, Larkspur is in the Consolida family.

>>   Helianthus tuberosus                Csicso'ka
>This one is odd.  Helianthus is derived from the latin word Helios (sun)
>and Anthos (flower) = Helianthus annuus, for which the common name is
>"sunflower".  Tuberosus would indicate a plant grown from a bulb, but
>sunflowers are grown from seed.  Could it possibly be a new hybrid of the
>traditional sunflower?

I may be wrong, but Helianthus tuberosus is your common, ordinary sunflower.

>>   Ocimum                              Bazsalikom  "Sweet Basil"

Ocimum is also called holy basil.  It's the common Indian species of basil.

>>   Polianthes Tuberosa                 Tubaro'zsa "Tuberous Begonia"
>This is a wild guess, stemming from the fact that I once bought one for my
>grandmother, who called it "Tubarozsa".

Polianthes tuberosa refers to a liliaceous plant.  This family would include
the Amaryllis and most lily like plants, ie, long, non-fury stems.

>>   Sempervivum                         Ko"vira'g         "Houseleeks"

Sempervivum are in the cacti family.  The most common in my agricultural
zone (5b) are "hens and chickens".

>>   Stipa                               A'rvala'nyhaj   "Spear Grass"

Stipa is also called Feather grass.

Joe Szalai

In article <19970224.153505.CTHOMPS2@VM>, 
says...
>
>From:
>
>I am new to this list, and am doing a genealogy search.
>
>Need to find relatives in Vors, hungary who may be the family of Joseph
and Mag
>gdaline Futo, who migrated to U.S. in early 1900's, any information that
can me
> find Hungarian genealogy research. Thanks!

I don't know, if they are relatives, but I know one Mrs. Anna Futo in
Budapest.  She was the neighbour of my mother and took care of her and in
exchange she inherited her apartment when she died.  Her address was:
Csengery utca 6, Budapest 1132, Hungary

Agnes

Hi Joe!

Would have been disappointed if our resident gardener had nothing to say ....

>>   Helianthus tuberosus                Csicso'ka
>>This one is odd.  Helianthus is derived from the latin word Helios (sun)
>>and Anthos (flower) = Helianthus annuus, for which the common name is
>>"sunflower".  Tuberosus would indicate a plant grown from a bulb, but
>>sunflowers are grown from seed.  Could it possibly be a new hybrid of the
>>traditional sunflower?
>
>I may be wrong, but Helianthus tuberosus is your common, ordinary sunflower.
[...]
You are likely right.  H. Tuberosus is nowhere in five books I've looked
at; although all of them refer to Helianthus annuus as being the most
widely grown annual variety - from seed.  Perhaps the tuberosus would be
the perennial variety? - although the text does not indicate this anywhere,
it does make sense.
i>
>>>   Sempervivum                         Ko"vira'g         "Houseleeks"
>
>Sempervivum are in the cacti family.  The most common in my agricultural
>zone (5b) are "hens and chickens".
This is interesting, since the photograph of the plants look exactly what I
know as being "hens and chickens".  The text however reads:  "Sempervivum -
Houseleeks are very tenacious plants with fleshy leaves arranged in
spherical or flattened, ground-hugging rosettes that stand up well to the
severest drought and heat.  (skip description which goes on for a page)....
species are divided nto the following four groups according to the colour
of the rosettes: 1. species with green leaves, 2. species with leaves
coloured brown or brownish red at the tip, 3. species with brown or
brownish-red leaves, 4. species with rosettes spangled with fine hairs, a
typical example being the cobweb houseleek (S. arachnoideum).  S.ornatum
which makes large rosettes that are red at the centre with green tips is
also lovely."
This latest one, S. ornatum looks identical to what I planted and have only
ever known as "hens and chickens" by common name.  It would be nice to
ascertain which is the correct one.  Seeing Barna's efforts in this
project, I decided that I'd best quote the book; rather than my memory.

Take care,
Aniko

At 09:43 PM 2/24/97 GMT, Kristof wrote:

>Health care, pensions, etc. may have been stated to be free, perhaps were
>even believed to be free, but will anyone who lived in Hungary in the
>1980's seriously argue that they were?

Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
<and I
<brought up the hard fact that our own own social security payments in the
<United States are not really sufficient to pay for the benefits we will get
<from social security if we live long enough. Most people wouldn't believe
<that they are paying most likely less than they receive.

<snip>
<But in Europe a form of welfare state developed
<in the last thirty or forty years which takes away about fifty percent of
<one's earnings and "redistributes" them in forms of social services.
< The burden on the employer is so high that it has become seriously
<counterproductive.

I basically agree with you, with some differentiation.
The social security, e.g. in Germany is collecting MORE money
than you are likely to get back ever during a long life. But,
in the majority of cases it is mandatory to join.

<snip>

< Larger companies either
<hire foreigners (see Germany)

it4s not that simple hiring foreigners, as it sounds
and there are not so many. If they are residents they
must be paid acording to the "tariffs". The foreigner,
and the company would do need a license for this and
this country is pretty much restrictive about that.
There is a lot of illegal hiring around, however, in
many cases for jobs, you wouldn4t find Germans for...

< or simply move their businesses abroad

Capital flows...and capital "punishes" if you
disregard basics of economics

< but when France and Germany
<tried to cut back on "social services" the population had a violent
<reaction. Of course, one is not surprised at their reaction. It is not very
<pleasant to lose one's benefits and, of course, one is going to fight tooth
<and nail to keep them.

Peopal are aware of the fact that changes are necessary
and they voice that. One should only not save to THEIR own
disadvantage.

<Governments should learn that one a privilege is
<given the privileged will not easily give up its privileges.

I wouldn4t call that privileges. THEY PAY FOR THEM. And as I said, at
least around here in Germany, they pay a lot. It is the ill designed
structures getting upset as soon as the parameters ( e.g. demogra-
phics shift ).

The trouble is that most politicians and, probably, most citizens do
believe, government, state, a4llam is there to promote, to foster the
well-being, the welfare of their citizens, instead of restricting them-
selves to fending of harm, which is quite a difference. Taxes ARE ne-
cessary - there I vehemently disagree with the impression Kristof4s
statement is creating - for being able to fend of harm thretening the
people. If the government, and politicians, ceaselessly surching how
they could promote the walfare of the nation, the matter becomes extre-
mely expensive. They have - inherently - such a lousy efficiency! The
question is not, whether taxes, or no taxes. The question is moderate
taxes, efficiently used, or excessively high taxes, lousily wasted.

And, also, government should SERVE and not take the attitude
to grant privileges.

> Look at what is
>happening with the farmers in Hungary at the very moment. The agri-
cultural >sector has been a fairly pampered lot for many, many years.
<Lately, for example, their first 1 million-forint income was not at
all taxed.>

1 MM forint sounds phantastic, do not ignore the fact, however, that
it is as little as approx. 6000 bucks - PER ANNUM. A serious additional
burden is the burocratic requirements posed upon the SMALL farmers who
have difficulties to cope with them.

< The government now tried to make these guys--who are quite well off,
<by the way-

Do travel around in the Nyirseg, or other parts in the East, and you will
feel differently.

<--pay their fair share of taxes. Result: fighting tooth and nail and
>organizing road blocks all over Hungary. Meanwhile, they refuse to ne-
gotiate with the government. Their representative simply don't show up

Hold on! This sound like The Ministry of Agriculture a couple of weeks
ago. He said, there was nobody to negotiate with and there was nothing
to negotiate about. He needed road blocks to change the tune.

They DID negotiate, the ministry4s delegates tried to filibuster...

< because they
>know that a roadblockade will be devastating for the country and sooner or
>later the government will give in. Meanwhile, you hear that Hungarian
>agriculture receives twice as much money as Hungarian education!

Or better, half as little as education?

Regards,
Miklos

>which begs the question -- why not leave the money in the hands of those
>who earned it, and let them pay for those services they use.  Elsewise,
>you have people who don't get sick being forced (taxes are compulsory)
to
>pay the hospital costs of those that do, and those with no children
>supporting the education of the offspring of others.
>
Kristof, I live in Canada and I have to say that I am enormously grateful
for medicare.  I hear horror stories about what is happening if someone
becomes seriously - or even not so seriously - ill in the US.  It is
great in the US if you young and healthy.  Yes, we pay a lot of taxes and
medicare is not perfect, but I wouldn't like to get sick in the US!

Agnes

>        I am happy to announce that through my "secret channels" I
received
>news that Mr. Lippai will no longer argue with us about our
anti-Hungarian
>stance. Let's hope he keeps his word.
>
>        Eva Balogh
>
>
Well, Eva, you must have powerful contacts ......

Agnes

Kristof wrote :
<As I explained privately to Mr. Lippai,>

Privately, you said?

MKH

At 08:10 PM 2/24/97 -0500, Eva Balogh wrote:
>Look at what is
>happening with the farmers in Hungary at the very moment. The agricultural
>sector has been a fairly pampered lot for many, many years. Lately, for
>example, their first 1 million-forint income was not at all taxed. The
>government now tried to make these guys--who are quite well off, by the
>way--pay their fair share of taxes. Result: fighting tooth and nail and
>organizing road blocks all over Hungary. Meanwhile, they refuse to negotiate
>with the government. Their representative simply don't show up because they
>know that a roadblockade will be devastating for the country and sooner or
>later the government will give in. Meanwhile, you hear that Hungarian
>agriculture receives twice as much money as Hungarian education!
>
Gabor wrote :

<And,  to add insult to injury, the farmers are grossly overproducing certain
<crops. Many of them had to destroy large quantities of unwanted produce. The
<way it goes, they'll follow the American example: the government will pay
<farmers not to plant.

Touched, crying. This poor, innocent, expert government.
Those lousy, fat kulaks...
Which country have you been writing about? I should visit
it. Must be very much different to Hungary I am visiting
quite frequently.

MKH

 on Feb 24 20:18:58 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #924:

> Look at what is
>happening with the farmers in Hungary at the very moment. The agricultural
>sector has been a fairly pampered lot for many, many years. Lately, for
>example, their first 1 million-forint income was not at all taxed. The
>government now tried to make these guys--who are quite well off, by the
>way--pay their fair share of taxes.

To anyone even vagualy familiar with the Hungarian scene this is really news.
 Maybe Eva thinks of the American farmers.  The farmers in Hungary have,
under communism as well as since, had a much lower standard of living than
the urban population, most of whom have also been experiencing a downward
trend in their standard of living.  (According to the latest official
statistics, the real income of wage-earners dropped by 5.3% in 1996.)

The one-million forint (roughly equivalent to 6,000 dollars) threshold does
not seem so high.  But it looks like it is going to be lowered.

> Result: fighting tooth and nail and
>organizing road blocks all over Hungary. Meanwhile, they refuse to negotiate
>with the government.
> Their representative simply don't show up because they
>know that a roadblockade will be devastating for the country and sooner or
>later the government will give in.

Are we reading different accounts of what's happening?  According to BLA, it
is the minister of agriculture who avoids negotiating, even leaving the
country (he is in France right now) during the current crisis.

> Meanwhile, you hear that Hungarian
>agriculture receives twice as much money as Hungarian education!
>
>        Eva Balogh

Who is "you"?  Where did "you" hear this?  Even if true, this wouldn't mean
much, in light of how little Hungarian education receives these days!

Ferenc

I'm posting the following article, published in today's Record
(Kitchener-Waterloo), only because Gabor Farkas and Kristof
) resent paying taxes.
______________________

Expanded NATO could cost Canada megabucks

Canada faces a dramatic increase in defence expenditures when the North
Atlantic Treaty Organization expands eastward.

A study made public by the U.S. government Monday estimated the total cost
of enlarging the military alliance to the countries of Eastern Europe is
expected to be $27 billion to $35 billion US between 1997 and 2009, the
Globe and Mail reported today in a story from Washington.

The study said the new members of NATO that are to be admitted at the Madrid
summit in July will bear 35 per cent of that cost.

The United States will bear 15 per cent and the other 15 current members,
including Canada, will share the remaining 50 per cent.

The details have not yet been negotiated but Canada would probably be
required to pay about six per cent of the total, or between $45 million and
$59 million a year for 12 years.

Canada, one of the strongest proponents of NATO enlargement, budgeted $9.9
billion for defence for 1997-98, and only $145.3 million for NATO.

That is a reduction of almost $6 million from previous NATO contributions.
There is no reference to the projected costs of NATO enlargement in the
current Defence Department expenditure projections.

Last week, Prime Minister Jean Chretien urged that Romania, Slovenia and
Slovakia be admitted to the alliance.
________________________________

Now, if Canadians started thinking the way Gabor and Kristof do, we could
save a lot of money.  We could say that it's our money, we earned it, we
worked very hard for it, charity begins at home, and other mindless,
self-serving mantras, we'd do all right.  No?

Joe Szalai

At 05:38 PM 2/25/97 -0500, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>>>   Helianthus tuberosus                Csicso'ka
>>This one is odd.  Helianthus is derived from the latin word Helios (sun)
>>and Anthos (flower) = Helianthus annuus, for which the common name is
>>"sunflower".  Tuberosus would indicate a plant grown from a bulb, but
>>sunflowers are grown from seed.  Could it possibly be a new hybrid of the
>>traditional sunflower?
>
>I may be wrong, but Helianthus tuberosus is your common, ordinary sunflower.
>

According to the Magyar Ertelmezo Szotar "csicso'ka" is an industrial and
fodder- plant (this does not sound right, but it is from Orszagh for
takarmany noveny),  related to the sunflower (called napraforgo' in
Hungarian). According to this source it has edible roots.

Gabor D. Farkas