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Roman Kanala
------------

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
From: 
Subject: Reciprocity reasoning
Lines: 78
Organization: University of Geneva, Switzerland
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 1994 07:39:27 GMT


Several times, I have read (and not only on Slovak-L) allusions,
allegations, statements suggesting existence of links between two
phenomenons distant in time and/or in space, situation of minorities in
Hungary and in Slovakia, 1000 years ago, 100 years ago, 50 years ago,
and today, as if there was a causal link between them.

As I have already pointed it out on many occassions, I think that the
reciprocity reasoning is a mistake because it considers a deal, an
exchange "give & take", something for something, that should occur
not between two partners being at the same level and dealing together
because they decided to do so. We can see often that people are taken for
responsible (and called to assume the costs and consequences) of
situations that occured without their contribution, without their
knowledge, or without their consentment against their will. That's not
good from moral point of view, and sometimes (unfortunately, only
sometimes) also from the legal point of view. Sometimes, as in case of
minorities, reciprocity reasoning is getting similarities with "soft"
form of hostage taking: a State is taking hostages, who are its own
citizens, and submitting the constitutionally proclaimed rights of
thereof to external conditions that could or not be met, while all this
is left beyond the reach of influence of the victims. In this sense,
victims can be assimilated to hostages.

To get into more concrete examples, conditioning the rights of a group
of citizens, rights that have been proclaimed in the Constitution and are
legally binding because of ratification of at least one international
treaty, by meeting some fuzzy conditions regarding an another, different
group of people in an another country, and, worse, maybe even in an
another, different epoch, while these two groups were given no chance to
influence in any way the offending conditions, is incorrect. Any link
between the two is artificial and should not exist.

When formulated at this level of abstraction, all that seems to be
trivial. It is indeed astonishing as to have to constate that as soon as
concrete parameters have to be put instead of variables, the acceptance
of this idea development may change into "yes, but...", like "yes, but
they... are bad ... were bad... whatever". Putting Slovaks, Magyars,
Czechs, Germans, or whatever he will find appropriate, as parameters of
the problem, is left on the reader.

Suggested aproach is to maximize the global payoff by maximizing the
utility of the citizens as a whole, by granting them equal rights
regardless of their appartenance to any minorities, rights that have to
take into account their specificity, while the maximizing has to be done
within internal system constraints, regardless of any external conditions.
This can be done at collective level, as well as at individual level.
Individual rights are usually being considered to be a higher form, and
indeed, we find prevalence of individual rights in many developed
societies with important minorities (in more general sense than just the
ethnic one). For example, there are many things that are considered to
be undesired in most countries, that are tolerated in Denmark, Sweden,
Switzerland. However, individual rights, if ill-defined, can stay only
at theorical level. On the other side, collective rights are bringing
back the concept of the "collective being" linked to many past injustices,
but in some conditions, it can indeed offer a higher level of protection
than individual rights. It's the case when the state of human rights is
unsatisfactory and the victims, presumed holders of the rights, are in
defensive position. Historic examples show that, at the end of the 19th
century, the position of Hungarian authorities seemed to be that the
rights have to be granted at the individual level (Hungarian nation,
Hungarian language), while Slovak representatives seemed to request
definition of collective rights. In the first Czechoslovak Republic,
the Benes' concept of Czechoslovakism was theorically acceptable because
equal rights were granted to everyone: Czechoslovak citizenship,
czechoslovak language (i.e. Czech). Today, we can see that it's the
Hungarian side that requests collective rights to be defined and
respected, and Slovak partner claims the individual rights definition
to be a better solution.

Just a couple of quickly formulated ideas before I forget them...

Roman Kanala

Disclaimer: My private opinions. No link to the University of Geneva
except the account used to post these lines is owned by the University.
No copyright. If you find these ideas interesting, think about, adopt
them as your own, spread them where you find appropriate.

I found this article from Slovak-L can be of interest to readers
here. I am forwarding it as it is, without editing nor further comment.

Roman Kanala
-----------


Newsgroups: bit.listserv.slovak-l
From: 
Subject: Three time parameters
Lines: 95
Organization: University of Geneva, Switzerland
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 1994 09:31:51 GMT


In this article, I am introducing a definition of three time parameters,
let's call them decay of actuality, decay of personal interest, decay
of legitimate bitterness. These ideas are mine, are not anchored to any
previous sociologic study and therefore I am staying at theorical level.
I have no knowledge of a litterature on this subject and will be
grateful for comments or tips regarding related bibliography (I am not
promising to read it immediately for an ulterior discussion, due to time
constraints).

Many times, I have read (and not only on Slovak-L) allusions,
allegations, statements suggesting existence of links between two
phenomenons distant in time and/or in space, situation of minorities in
Hungary and in Slovakia, 1000 years ago, 100 years ago, 50 years ago,
and today, as if there was a causal link between them.

In several countries, there is a clause in the law about legitimate
interest, consisting in requirement of direct link between a phenomenon
and the person who is entering into legal process. For example, people
are free to protest against, say, an undesirable facility, but not to
bring the case to a court, unless there is an evidence their interests
are concerned. In that way, only neighbours can claim the immediate
interest. Organizations, like WWF or Protection of environment, can
intervene as long as they have been found concerned (and in case of an
undesirable industrial facility they obviously are).

This leads me to the idea that similar concepts could arise in time.
Legal systems know the concept of expiration that differ for different
classes of undesired acts. I will distinguish three periods of time whose
length (either in time units or in causal sense) is fixed.

Let me introduce the personal interest or personal concern first.
If someone's interests have been harmed, it is legitimate to expect a
repair within time the victim can claim his rights. I think a convenient
time period for that is a human lifetime.

For actuality, I consider the appropriate period to be the time the cause
that brought the effect persist, maybe including the time necessary to
bring the system into its original state (providing there is an effort to
do so, or a need for such an effort).

Decay of legitimate betterness can be defined as the minimum time that's
necessary either to repair or to forget the consequences of a past
injustice that can go beyond the time of personal interest, considering
its amplitude, intensity or duration.

For example, national oppression of Slovaks by official Hungary was of
actuality until 1918 and ceased to be immediately after the creation of
the Czechoslovak state. It is about to become irrelevant as subject of
personal interest because there are virtually no more concerned people.
However, it can still be considered to be within the period before the
decay of legitimate bitterness because of persistence of negative
feelings in a portion of population of what's being today Slovakia.
On the other side, today Slovakian Magyar issues have to be considered
to be of actuality, and even after their complete resorbtion, they will
stay in state of before both the decay of personal interest and
legitimate bitterness. On the other side, battle on Lech river, Turkish
invasion, and, in the Slovak-L case, thousand year oppression, be it a
reality or myth, are far outside of decay of legitimate bitterness, other
more recent, more sensible events haveing recovered these with dust.
The same for Jan Hus or battle in Biela Hora (imagine Lieutenant Rene
Descartes be killed in Prague in 1620, we would have to wait for breaking
the confusion of the scholastics, for his method/metaphysics concept and
advances in algebra, from this point of view, it's good that Czechs
haven't counterattack, but this is a different issue...;-)

There is an another problem that could be considered as belonging before
decay of all three, the actuality, personal concern and legitimate
bitterness: the communism, because it's too early, consequences are not
yet addressed, and camrads are still there, unchanged, as a permanent
danger and long-time residual risk.

It is obvious that in some cases, there is an overlapping of these
periods and conflicts have to be resolved. I think that the most
appropriate approach is that the victim should try to forget as soon as
the cause disappeared and the perpetuator showed signs of regret. That
way decay of legitimate bitterness can be considered to be shorter than
the period of personal concern. On the other side, regardless of
circumstances, the perpetuator has a moral obligation NOT to forget as
long as the period of decay of personal concern expired, and, if
possible, until the decay of the legitimate bitterness. Further I think
that dealing and merchandising with the causes and effects are
inappropriate because the persons are not necessarily the same.

There is one more related issue, how to proceed, but I will leave it
untouched for now.

Just a couple of quickly formulated ideas before I forget them...

Roman Kanala

Disclaimer: My private opinions. No link to the University of Geneva
except the account used to post these lines is owned by the University.
No copyright. If you find these ideas interesting, think about, adopt
them as your own, spread them where you find appropriate.

I recently got a VHS recording of my cousin's wedding.  Unfortunately it
doesn't play very well:  the VCR senses that it should play the tape in
standard mode, but apparently the recording was made slower than that so all I
get is garbage on the screen and the sound of a priest which would lead one to
believe that females are being ordained. ;-)  I tried to manually set the
slowest speed, but the VCR keeps going back to SP.  Can anybody help?

    Norb

On Tue, 23 Aug 1994 21:29:57 EDT Marc Nasdor said:
>Second example: all U.S. presidents, with the exception of Kennedy, have been
>White Anglo-Saxon Protestants.

--I must respectfully disagree with the above statement.  In a previous life,
I had a perfectly respectable theological education.  The word Protestant is
terribly misused by the public to denote any Christian who is not a Cathlic.
Protestant should be used only to denote those historic churches that grew up
in opposition to 16th century Catholocism.  Hence, Protestants are any members
of Calvinist, Lutheran, or Anglican churches or their close derivatives, e. g.,
the Methodists.  Point is, I can think of three recent presidents who were
not Protestants:  Nixon, who was a Quaker, and Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton,
both of whom are Southern Baptists.  Neither the Society of Friends or the
Southern Baptists can be considered "mainline" Protestantism associated with
the traditional political establishment in this country.  Come to think of it,
Harry Truman was a Baptist, but I think it was one of the Northern branches
not the Southern Baptist.  Hey, LBJ was a Southern Baptist, too, wasn't he?

 If religious affiliation is so irrelevant, then
>please explain this phenomenon. Following this, how are "serious" candidates
>selected, what financial interests back them up? I'll answer the question: the
>large donations come from the corporate sector and wealthy individuals, who
>are dominated overwhelmingly by (see above ethnic reference).

--Next time donations are listed in the paper, check them out.  Catholics
and Jews also contribute, as do certain evangelicals.  You're depending on
1960s rhetoric here.  I'll bet you a dollar to your dime that there might
even be Arabs and African-American capitalists and organizations on some
contribution lists.

 Third, on the
>subject of religion, the very fact that only large denominations are afforded
>respect speaks volumes about the so-called "tolerance" of the majority.

--Again, 1960s rhetoric.  There are about 3 million Presbyterians and the
same number of Episcopalians.  Both are hardly large denominations compared
with the 12 million Methodists and 35 million Catholics.

 Zen
>Buddhists and Yoga Meditation societies are laughed off.

--Neither are religions in the technical sense.  And please give me
an example of when either are mocked in political discourse.

 but just try mocking
>the Mormon church, a bonafide 19th-century UFO cult if there ever was one...
>
--I am not a Mormon, but I know a few and they are serious people who are
well aware of the improbable nature of their origins.  Any wilder than
building a religion out of a crucified, non-conformist Jew who is supposed
to have been raised from the dead?  Is that logical?

>> When was the last time you saw someone declaring his heterosexuality on TV,
>> or his religious affiliation for that matter?  Now _you_ tell me if
>> that's censorship, or only self-censorship?
>
Sure.  Just last night, some comedian was talking about attending a
parochial school and his experiences with the nuns.  Jackie Mason
has a whole routine about his Jewish experience.

>Pat Robertson declares his heterosexuality and his religious affiliation with
>numbing regularity.

--Could be, I never watch him.  You do?  I wondered who it was that kept
him on the air.

 But seriously, the only time someone would feel inclined
>to declare one's hetero orientation, would be if heteros were being persecuted
>anti-gay violence is rising at an alarming rate, even here in New York
>
--I too live in the Bible belt, and can't remember reading of a gay bashing
here in the last twenty years.

>If you don't see the pervasive influence of the clergy, you should open your
>eyes and talk to people who have been denied work, have lost their jobs, or
>have suffered orchestrated social ostracism because of their beliefs.
>Anyone who has observed, or lived under, totalitarian or authoritarian regimes
>will recognize this scenario.
>
--This, too, is perhaps more true of the Europe of the 1930s than the
contemporary U.S. where we have so many diverse and unusual religions
that it goes unnoticed.  The current "Catholic" vs. "Protestant" conflict
in Ireland really has very little to do with religion and a lot to do
with who historically had the economic power.

>I know that conservatives the world over love to mock the obsessive promotion
>of social tolerance by liberals, but the present-day genocides in Bosnia,
>Rwanda, etc. makes this cause at least as serious as welfare reform, no?

--Sure, but you make a big mistake if you see these conflicts as over
theological points.  They have more to do with ethnicity and economics.

>
>Charles
Diploma, (1956) McCormick Theological Seminary
Chicago, Illinois

On Mon, 22 Aug 1994 14:34:53 -0600 Norbert Walter said:
>    I recently got a VHS recording of my cousin's wedding.  Unfortunately it
>doesn't play very well:

--Was it made in the U.S. or Europe?  If in the U.S.,

--First, try diddling with the tracking controls on the VCR.

--Second, take it to the University audio-visual shop, if that doesn't
work or if the tape was made in Europe.  Generally, European tapes
won't play on U.S. machines, but conversion may be possible.

Charles

I decided to reply to Mr. Kornai's response concerning
military chaplains under this heading because I think his views on
the subject are determined by his interpretation of the 1994
elections, an interpretation which, in my view, is wrong.  Put
shortly, Mr. Kornai attributes the success of the MSZP to a public
uprising against the so-called "Christian-national" ideology
(whatever that is).  However, I cannot but question the source and
correctness of this interpretation when all the independent
analyses of the election (i.e. non-indigenous sources such as RFE
and the Western media) point to economic reasons as the single most
decisive element which brought about the MSZP landslide.
Additionally, any other reason for the return of the Communists in
Hungary would have to be taken with a grain of salt, since that
political phenomenon has been occurring in _most_ of the former-
Communist countries, with the exception of, not surprisingly
(unless you deal with revisionistic and political motivated
analysis), the Czech Republic (which arguably has had the best
economic recovery so far).  And might I add, the two facts raised
above can debunk Mr. Kornai's theory single handily, even without
confronting the issue of whether or not the MDF governments were
"Christian-national," a description which in no way was solidly
founded in Hungarian politics and foreign policy under the said
governments.  Obviously there were some in the MDF who wanted a
more "Christian" state and a more nationalistic Hungary, but to say
that that sort of thinking has been a hallmark of the past four
years is greatly debatable.
     I believe the above has brought about Mr. Kornai's analysis of
the chaplain situation because he himself ties it to the former
governments' "Christian-national crap."  But what he ignores is
that chaplains are a part of many states' armed forces, regardless
of their official state ideology (take the US for example).  Also,
IMHO, he employs faulty logic in his assertion that the "taxpayers"
won out by getting another vestige of "Christian-nationalism"
destroyed.  Mr. Kornai makes it out as if the presence of chaplains
in the military had been a prior controversy, when in fact it had
not.  Since as I said before, chaplains can be found in many
nations' armed forces, and as such, has nothing to do with the
ideology of the state, I find it hard not to come to the conclusion
that the present government is not merely trying to "relieve" tax
payers of this burden, but are actually trying to inhibit the
practice of religion.  Why should a secular, democratic government
be afraid of providing for the spiritual needs of its soldiers?
Should the US government not fund the USO because it provides tax
funded entertainment to a small segment of society?
     Finally, just a specific example of how one of Mr. Kornai's
misrepresentations was unmasked by the RFE (in this case, an RFE
Research Report):  Several months ago, Mr. Kornai described the
split in the FIDESZ and the reasons for the party's loss of
popularity.  According to him, the Orban faction moved closer to
the governing coalition (entailing that Orban's faction embraced
"Christian-nationalism"), a move which resulted in a tremendous
loss of popular support.  However, that is not what happened.
True, Orban moved closer to the coalition parties, but the major
loss of support occurred because while Orban kept true to the
FIDESZ's fiscal conservative platform, Fodor's wing drifted
economically leftward and supported social policies which were
fiscally inconsistent with what the FIDESZ advocated!  In short,
the population's aversion to economic reforms brought about the
demise of the FIDESZ as well as the victory for the MSZP.  (But
then, why would Mr. Kornai know of this if his major news source is
the Magyar Narancs, the mouthpiece of the Fodor faction?)

     Norb

There are three diffrent types of color tv standards (these apply to VCRS);

NTSC, which is what is used in North America, PAL which is used in Western
Europe (except France), and SECAM which is used in France, Russia, and most
of the Eastern European countries.  WHat you need is to get your VHS tape
converted from SECAM to NTSC........

Charles Atherton writes:

> >Second example: all U.S. presidents, with the exception of Kennedy, have bee
n
> >White Anglo-Saxon Protestants.
>
> --I must respectfully disagree with the above statement.  In a previous life,
> I had a perfectly respectable theological education.  The word Protestant is
> terribly misused by the public to denote any Christian who is not a Cathlic.
> Protestant should be used only to denote those historic churches that grew up
> in opposition to 16th century Catholocism.  Hence, Protestants are any member
s
> of Calvinist, Lutheran, or Anglican churches or their close derivatives, e.
 g.,
> the Methodists.  Point is, I can think of three recent presidents who were
> not Protestants:  Nixon, who was a Quaker, and Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton,
> both of whom are Southern Baptists.  Neither the Society of Friends or the
> Southern Baptists can be considered "mainline" Protestantism associated with
> the traditional political establishment in this country.  Come to think of it
,
> Harry Truman was a Baptist, but I think it was one of the Northern branches
> not the Southern Baptist.  Hey, LBJ was a Southern Baptist, too, wasn't he?


In addition, Lincoln belonged to no church; and Roosevelt and Eisenhower are
strange names for Anglo-Saxons.

--Greg

On Tue, 23 Aug 1994, Eva Durant wrote:

> Be prepared to be lost between all the Pizza Huts and McDonalds.
>

Come now! It's not the bad! It is bad but it is still not as bad as,
let's say, a city in England. Now they really sucked up to the U.S.
businesses.

                                                        Attila

On Mon, 22 Aug 1994, Norbert Walter wrote:

>     I recently got a VHS recording of my cousin's wedding.  Unfortunately it
> doesn't play very well:  the VCR senses that it should play the tape in
> standard mode, but apparently the recording was made slower than that so all 
I
> get is garbage on the screen and the sound of a priest which would lead one t
o
> believe that females are being ordained. ;-)  I tried to manually set the
> slowest speed, but the VCR keeps going back to SP.  Can anybody help?

In Hungary that use PAL/SECAM system (the two is compatable on most
VCRs). In the USA we are using NTSC system. You need to translate you
tape to NTSC.


                                                        Attila

On Wed, 24 Aug 1994  wrote:

> Charles Atherton writes:
>
> > >Second example: all U.S. presidents, with the exception of Kennedy, have
 been
> > >White Anglo-Saxon Protestants.
> >
> > --I must respectfully disagree with the above statement.  In a previous
 life,
>
>
> In addition, Lincoln belonged to no church; and Roosevelt and Eisenhower are
> strange names for Anglo-Saxons.
>
> --Greg

While Roosevelt is of Dutch origin (One of the founding families of Nau
Amsterdam - later know as New York) it is considered Anglo-Saxon by most
political scientists. That revision in U.S. was made at the turn of the
century due to that large immigration from Germany and Scandinavian
country, while getting territories with large non-white population
(Philliphines, Hawaii, Alaska, Guam Island etc). At that time this
particular topic was renegotiated on the Senate floor and Anglo-Saxon
become a term using for everyone of Germanic origin.  Even the K - K - K
was influance by this debates. As you know the KKK originally was against
anybody who was not of English origin and was not Protestant. So some of
the KKK branches started to remove English of Catholic religion, Irish
and Germans from the death list. But generally speaking, you are right.


                                                Attila...az attila hazi

>KKK branches started to remove English of Catholic religion, Irish
>and Germans from the death list.

Really?  I was unaware of any abatement of KKK hostility from Catholics of
any ethnicity.

bill... a kis hazi

> > ...and Roosevelt and Eisenhower are
> > strange names for Anglo-Saxons.

Add Reagan to that list.

--Greg

> HUNGARIAN ARMY FACES CUTS. Defense ministry spokesman Lt. Col.
> Lajos Erdelyi told Magyar Hirlap on 23 August that financial
> constraints will force the Hungarian Army to reduce in the next
> one-and-half to two years the number of its conscripts by 10,000
> to 12,000--a 15% drop from the present 60,000. Thus some 20,000
> conscripts will start their service this week, 2,000 less than a
> year ago. The ministry also plans to reduce in the near future the
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> length of military service from 12 to 10 months, and prepare a
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> list of military units and installations to be eliminated as part
> of a long-term crisis management program.  Alfred Reisch, RFE/RL,
> Inc.



Cutting numbers is one thing, but it seems to me that reducing the
length of service will cut quality, too.  Is this change consistent
with (probable/possible) NATO membership?

--Greg

 writes:

>In this article, I am introducing a definition of three time parameters,
>let's call them decay of actuality, decay of personal interest, decay
>of legitimate bitterness. These ideas are mine, are not anchored to any
>previous sociologic study and therefore I am staying at theorical level.
>I have no knowledge of a litterature on this subject and will be
>grateful for comments or tips regarding related bibliography (I am not
>promising to read it immediately for an ulterior discussion, due to time
>constraints).

My virtual friend Zoli Fekete wrote:

>[Editorial Report Budapest NEPSZAVA in Hungarian on 4 April on page 8.
>on 5 April on page 10, and on 6 April on page 7 carries a 4,100-word
>series of articles by Frigyes Varju on the situation of Slovaks in
>Hungary under the headline: ''To Be a Slovak in Hungary."
>
>In this series of articles, the NEPSZAVA reporter interviews various
>Slovak officials in Hungary who assess the Hungarian Government's
>minority policy.[...]
>
>On page 8 of its 4 April issue. NEPSZAVA carries a 1,600-word report on
>interviews conducted with Erzsebet Uhrin, principal of the Slovak high
>school in Bekescsaba, Mrs. Jozsef Somogyi, regional representative of
>Slovaks in Delalfold, and Anna Istvan, deputy chairman of the
>Association of Slovaks in Hungary (the MSZSZ.) [...] Nevertheless, the
>NEPSZAVA article clearly shows that the situation of Slovaks in Hungary
>could be improved. For example, Uhrin does not deny that "there are
>some people who really are afraid of another forced resettlement."
>NEPSZAVA quotes Uhrin as saying that "it is particularly older people
>who are haunted by the past'' because "they cannot wipe out the
>nightmare of the 1947-1948 population exchange." Uhrin deplores the
>fact that "so far, the peoples of Eastern Europe have not proven
>themselves capable of upholding friendly and balanced relations."
>Furthermore, with its in-depth reports, the Hungarian television
>program PANORAMA does not exactly contribute to reconciliation;
>Erzsebet Uhrin explains that, for its part, the Slovak national
>minority in Hungary does not want to complain to Slovak television
>reporters: ~We want to settle our problems at home."
>
>Speaking in a harsher tone, Anna Istvan believes that the Hungarian
>Government deals more with Hungarians abroad than with national
>minorities living in Hungary. NEPSZAVA quotes the MSZSZ official as
>saying that ''politicians come and go, we tell them our woes, yet it
>still turns out that They know nothing. Funny how they know everything
>about Hungarians beyond our borders!"'

>NEPSZAVA notes that, more than anything, Slovaks in Hungary
>lack textbooks, school material, and newspapers.
>Asked about the measures taken by the current Hungarian Government
>to assist national minorities in Hungary, Ms. Istvan bitterly replies
>that the government has done ''three things: It has provided some
>support for the education of our children, it has created a national
>minority protection office, and it has made some financial contributions
>to the budgets of national minority associations. Compare that to
>the dozens of provisions made by high-level forums for Hungarians abroad!"

Tony

Greg Grose writes:
> Let me just say that at least one of {Grose, Kornai, Nasdor} has a bad
> funny bone; whether this has impaired the creation of satire, on the
> one hand, or recognition of it, on the other, I'll leave open...  :-)
Impaired recognition of satire on my part is the answer. Frankly, Greg, you
are too good at it -- there is something in these pieces that makes them
look as if they were penned straight by Rush Limbaugh. It's not the first
time I'm fooled, and probably not the last time. You also succeeded in
pushing one of my libertarian buttons, since I actually dislike federal
funding of art and science (if you read Hungarian I'll be delighted to send
you one of my old diatribes on this subject...).

As for E1va's more serious point of how much responsibility the government
has for the commitments made by previous governments, I honestly don't know.
I think they have full responsibility to preserve and uphold all
international treaties, and should in general preserve the rule of law and
not tinker too much with law, except in cases where this clearly helps the
larger goal of getting away from the communist model and move towards the
western European scheme of things. Lower-level commitments and policies,
well, the reason there is a new government is that people were dissatisfied
with the policies of the old one, so I'm not sure their commitments should
be binding.

Andra1s Kornai

I am surprised at Andras Kornai's vehement anti-religion stance in the
following message:

>as far as I am concerned (again, speaking strictly for myself and the
>majority of Hungarians who happen to be atheists or just don't take the
>established churces to be appropriate representatives of their religious
>sensibilities) the soldiers (who are also voters, btw) will just have to go
>on without all the wonderful spiritual guidance they would no doubt receive
>otherwise.

First of all, philosophically speaking, atheism is an untenable proposition.
If you are not a believer, you are better off declaring yourself to be an
agnostic. Second, one may argue that religious education while one is growing
up is a good idea. If the instructor is any good (unfortunately, most of them
are not) one learns at least some bible stories, and because the Bible is an
important part of Western cultural heritage, its familiarity is part and
parcel of a person's education. Religious instructions, ideally speaking,
should also familiarize the children with the history, rituals, meanings of
their and their family's religion. Such an education gives the young person a
choice: either to retain religion in his/her life, or to discard it. Most of
the people of Hungary today has no familiarity at all with religion and
therefore they never had the chance to make an informed decision.

>You'll (perhaps) be surprised to find that I'm not much in favor of public
>funding for the arts or for science,

says Andras. Yes, I am surprised. Does this mean, by the way, that you would
be ready to dismantle the hundreds and hundreds of research institutes which
are currently financed by the Hungarian government?

But, quite apart from religion, and the arts and sciences, the question is
still out there: can a new government just arbitrary reverse the decisions of
the government it just replaced? Are there any safeguards against such moves.
Tibor Asztalos, whose comments I enjoy reading on the FORUM, thinks that it
happens all the time, sometime even when there are written laws forbidding
it. If that is the case, we are in trouble. Eva Balogh

Eva Durant writes:

>Be prepared to be lost between all the Pizza Huts and McDonalds.

I live in Pizza Huts' and McDonalds' country of origin but I don't ever visit
them, either in the United States or abroad. However, most people seem to
like them in this country as well as abroad from China to Poland or Hungary.
If all those Russians, Poles, Hungarians, and so forth, are flocking to these
places, who am I to criticize them? Eva Balogh

Eva Balogh writes:


> First of all, philosophically speaking, atheism is an untenable proposition.

Uh-oh.  Stormy weather ahead.

> ...the question is
> still out there: can a new government just arbitrary reverse the decisions of
> the government it just replaced?

If by "decisions" you exclude treaties and statutes, by all means, yes.  Other-
wise, they could hardly carry out the mandate of the electorate, no?

I would guess that any administrative decision, "arbitrarily" made by one
government can be unmade by another; in the absence of statutory guidelines
requiring hearings, or etc., etc., which are common enough here (California).

Whether, in individual cases, a reversal of precedent is "wise" or even done
in good faith, is of course another question; but as far as authority, I'd say
yes, they've got it.

Of course, I never passed any classes in Hungarian constitutional law...


--Greg

On Wed, 24 Aug 1994 06:29:30 -0700 Attila Gabor said:
>
>Come now! It's not the bad! It is bad but it is still not as bad as,
>let's say, a city in England. Now they really sucked up to the U.S.
>businesses.
>
--You're right, Attila!  But when I lived in England, I didn't go
into any American fast food restaurants.  Too much good food in
England to do that.

--To Eva D.--Have you tried the original Poon's in Soho?  Wonderful
food!

Charles

On Wed, 24 Aug 1994 06:56:08 -0700 Attila Gabor said:
>
>While Roosevelt is of Dutch origin (One of the founding families of Nau
>Amsterdam - later know as New York) it is considered Anglo-Saxon by most
>political scientists.

--Name one.  The Dutch aren't exactly Anglo-Saxon.

 At that time this
>particular topic was renegotiated on the Senate floor and Anglo-Saxon
>become a term using for everyone of Germanic origin.

--I beg your pardon.  My family has been English for three centuries
in America until my father married a woman of Scots descent.  No one--
until my father--no one ever married a woman who wasn't English.  I am
Anglo-Saxon, white (if it matters) and protestant (Church of England's
American branch).

--I am not, repeat not, German.

--I have been on this list so long, I'm beginning to argue like a
Hungarian!  I like it!

  Even the K - K - K
>was influance by this debates. As you know the KKK originally was against
>anybody who was not of English origin and was not Protestant.

--My father belonged to the KKK in the 1920s.  Since we had no blacks,
except the Brooks family and they were locals, and about six Catholics,
it was stupid.  My mother made him quit!

In good humor,

Charles

DATE=8/24/94
TYPE=BACKGROUND REPORT
NUMBER=5-18038
TITLE=CENTRAL EUROPE / GEOGRAPHY
BYLINE=ALENA KENCLOVA (NOT VOICED)
DATELINE=PRAGUE
CONTENT=
VOICED AT:

INTRO:  MORE THAN ONE-THOUSAND GEOGRAPHERS FROM EVERY CONTINENT
ARE (HAVE BEEN) MEETING IN PRAGUE THIS WEEK AT AN INTERNATIONAL
CONFERENCE FOCUSING ON ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES CONCERNING
TRANSFORMATION IN CENTRAL EUROPE.  ALENA KENCLOVA REPORTS FROM
THE CZECH CAPITAL.

TEXT:  GEOGRAPHERS SAY THE AREA OF CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPE HAS
BECOME ONE GIGANTIC LABORATORY FOR STUDYING THE EFFECTS OF
POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC TRANSFORMATION.  CHAIRMAN OF THE CZECH
GEOGRAPHIC SOCIETY, IVAN BICIK, SAYS THIS TRANSFORMATION PROVIDES
SCIENCE WITH A UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY.

GEOGRAPHERS, LIKE POLITICIANS, DO  NOT  HAVE A CLEAR DEFINITION
OF CENTRAL EUROPE.  A FILM SHOWN AT THE GEOGRAPHER'S CONFERENCE
IN PRAGUE PRESENTED CENTRAL EUROPE AS AN AREA STRETCHING FROM THE
WESTERN BORDERS OF GERMANY AND SWITZERLAND TO THE EASTERN BORDERS
OF POLAND, SLOVAKIA AND HUNGARY.

BUT AS THE PRESIDENT OF THE INTERNATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC UNION,
HERMAN VERSTAPPEN, TOLD V-O-A, THERE IS  NO  REAL AGREEMENT ON
WHAT THE REGION COMPRISES.  HISTORICALLY, HE SAYS, CENTRAL EUROPE
IS THE OLD AUSTRO-HUNGARIAN EMPIRE, WITH VIENNA, PRAGUE AND
BUDAPEST AND THE SURROUNDING AREA.

                     /// VERSTAPPEN ACT ///

         BUT IT IS, OF COURSE, VERY DIFFICULT TO DEFINE IT
         EXACTLY. WHAT IS THE BOUNDARY OF EUROPE TO THE EAST?
         (IT IS) VERY DIFFICULT TO SAY, BUT AS A FACTOR OF
         FORMING THE IDENTITY OF EUROPE, IT HAS BEEN VERY REAL.
         IT SEPARATES US FROM THE VAST EXPANSES OF SIBERIA.

                         /// END ACT ///

THE DUTCH SCIENTIST RECOUNTED A LIST OF THE GEOGRAPHY-RELATED
PROBLEMS FACING THE FORMER COMMUNIST COUNTRIES OF CENTRAL AND
EASTERN EUROPE IN THEIR TRANSITION TO DEMOCRACY.

                   /// VERSTAPPEN 2ND ACT ///

         LONG-SUPPRESSED FEELINGS OF PRIDE AND TRADITIONS (AND)
         CULTURE HAVE LED TO AN EXPLOSION OF EXTREME NATIONALISM,
         AND WE ARE NOW FACING THE FACT OF 21 NEW COUNTRIES AND
         14-THOUSAND KILOMETERS OF NEW INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARIES.
         THERE IS ALSO A BIG HERITAGE OF ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE
         CAUSED BY THE ABUSE OF LAND IN THE PAST DECADES,
         INAPPROPRIATE INDUSTRIAL SYSTEMS AND AGRICULTURAL
         PRACTICES.

                         /// END ACT ///

AS MR. VERSTAPPEN AND THE OTHER GEOGRAPHERS NOTE, HOWEVER, THESE
PROBLEMS ARE  NOT  RESTRICTED TO CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPE.  MR.
VERSTAPPEN SAYS THE ISSUES ARE OF GLOBAL IMPORTANCE, AND THIS
EXPLAINS THE PRESENCE HERE OF GEOGRAPHERS FROM ALL CONTINENTS.

CONFERENCE PAPERS INCLUDE REPORTS ON MIGRATION AND REFUGEE FLOWS
IN CENTRAL AND EASTERN EUROPE, AS WELL AS IN MANY OTHER COUNTRIES
RANGING FROM ISRAEL TO CHINA.  OTHER PAPERS CONCERN NATURE
CONSERVATION, MAPPING THE ENVIRONMENT, URBAN RESTRUCTURING AS
WELL AS GEOGRAPHIC AND ENVIRONMENTAL EDUCATION AND TRAINING.

MR. VERSTAPPEN SAYS GEOGRAPHERS CAN PLAY A CRUCIAL ROLE IN
HELPING TO RESOLVE THESE PROBLEMS BY ADVISING GOVERNMENTS ON THE
RIGHT DECISIONS TO MAKE IN MANAGING THEIR COUNTRIES.

                         // REST OPT //

GEOGRAPHERS AT THE CONFERENCE SAY MORE SHOULD BE DONE TO ENSURE
THE PUBLIC IS KNOWLEDGEABLE ABOUT GEOGRAPHY.  THEY SAY THIS
SHOULD START IN SCHOOL WHERE CHILDREN SHOULD BE TAUGHT MORE ABOUT
PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, CUSTOMS, IDEAS AND CONCEPTS.
(SIGNED)

NEB/AK/JN/SKH /MMK

24-Aug-94 12:53 PM EDT (1653 UTC)
NNNN

Source: Voice of America




> ---------------------------------------------------------
Use of the NEB Wire

The contents of the NEB wire are not copyrighted.  However, if you publish or
rebroadcast any of these reports, please be certain to use the latest version
that was available at the time of publication or rebroadcast. VOA news
materials that are published or rebroadcast should be used in their entirety.
Please credit the Voice of America as the source in any subsequent
dissemination.

Where can I get information on sztaki.hu?  I would like to
get access to the Internet from Budapest.  What type of
access is available, and how much does it cost?

On Thu, 25 Aug 1994, Hal Gangnath wrote:

> Where can I get information on sztaki.hu?  I would like to
> get access to the Internet from Budapest.  What type of
> access is available, and how much does it cost?
>

Try Odin Kft in Budapest.  They are a commercial Internet Access Provider
just like say netcom here.

It provides full internet access with dial in options, 14,400 bps
modems.  Full access costs 3200 Fts for a month.  For this you get 1 hour
/day.  Any additional hours are 100 Fts per hour.  Mail/news accounts are
900 Fts per month.

Their internet access is: 

Good luck

Zoli

To Norb, Greg, etc.--

Look, you guys are showing a picture of "diversity" relating to, at best,
minor theological quibbles in the larger scheme of this thread. Let me be
more blunt. Until the most recent times, the U.S. has been under the cultural
domination of white men of northern European extraction. Having invested many
years promoting the literature of all cultures, I don't mean this statement as
a sleight against Europeans of any region. But dominance is still dominance,
be it cultural or economic, and this group of Americans is undoubtedly where
the power resides--the power to create meaning and the power to make decisions
affecting the lives of those outside the ethnic centers of attention.

Only recently, and by sheer force of numbers, have minority populations in
America been able to grab their share. Well, I try to believe in the American
ideal of strength through diversity.

Marc

Marc Nasdor wrote:

  > Tilos Az A closed????!!!!!! You're kidding, I was just there at the
  > beginning of July. I hope they held a proper wake. :-)

Not really. Sorry to say it pretty much faded away. Back in '91 it was
practically the only place, and it had a certain atmosphere. Since then so
many bars and clubs have come and gone - the old Tilos crowd sort of
wandered off as well. Not that the Tilos didn't have its moments ...

Well, that's just my opinion.

  > BTW, are you the same Steve Carlson who edited Budapest Week back in
  > 1991?

That's right.


=steve=

-----------------------
Steven Carlson
Critical Mass Media Inc.
Kiraly utca 15 II/3
1075 Budapest, Hungary
Tel:+361-121-3400