Szia !


 My name is Alex ( Sandor ) . I'm searching a hungarian woman for a
sincere friendship . Unfortunately i don't speak hungarian, i'm from a
family in which my
father is hungarian from Cluj ( Kolozsvar ) and my mother is romanian,
so i learned
the language of my mother ( romanian ) . I will be more interested from
a woman 
which live in Montreal , Canada , because i live in Montreal . But also
i'm interested from a woman from Hungary or USA or Canada . 


                                                           Thank you ,

                                                            Sandor

exerpt from
BURY ME STANDING by Isabel Fonseca
Alfred A. Knopf, Inc, 1995
ISBN 0-679-40678-6

Chapter 4 The Least Obedient People in the World

	On September 20, 1993, in the rural Transylvanian village of 
Hadareni, two Gypsy brothers, Rupa-Lucian and Pardalian Lacatus got into 
a fight with a young Romanian, Chetan Craciun, and his father, during 
which Chetan was fatally stabbed. In retaliation, other Romanians clubbed 
the Gypsy boys to death with pitchforks and shovels. A third Gypsy, 
Mircea Zoltan, was "carbonized at home" (as the English-language Romanian 
reports described it). A group of villagers then went on to torch 
fourteen Gypsy houses and to damage thirteen others, and that night the 
total of some 175 Gypsies, whose families had lived there for 70 years, 
were hounded out of town. Several policemen stood by throughout the 
evening's events; firemen arrived towards midnight, hours after the 
blazes had began. The fire trucks had been kept away, according to the 
banished Gypsies, by order of the deputy mayor of Hadareni, Gheorghe 
Bucur, who was himself a spectator at the burning. Some Gypsies tried to 
return to the village in the days that followed, making do in the bits of 
houses that remained; but within a few weeks they were again forced out. 
One woman who had tried to go home said she was spat on and jeered at, 
and was frightened for her life. "They ring the church bells whenever 
they see one of us," she said, "and we know what that means." A year 
later, most of the Gypsies were still in hiding, no one had been brought 
to trial, and the promise of an investigation was a dwindling memory.
	The most dramatic change for Central and East European Gypsies 
since the revolutions of 1989 has been the sharpe escalation of hatred 
and violence directed at them. There have been more than 35 serious 
attacks on settlements in Romania alone, mainly in remote rural areas, 
and mostly in the form of burnings and beatings, although some Gypsies 
have been murdered and children have been maimed. Istvan Varga, for 
example, a three year old boy from Transylvania, was burned to death in a 
haystack.
	Almost immediately after the revolution and the execution of the 
Ceausescus, the attacks began, and swiftly gained momentum; settlements 
fell in a distended domino effect, reaching to the outer edges of 
Romania. In January 1990, in Reghin, central Transylvania, three houses 
belonging to Gypsies were set on fire, for no apparent reason, by 
Hungarians and Romanians acting together. On February 11, 1990, in Lunga, 
in western Transylvania, six houses were destroyed and four Roma died in 
a fight with local Hungarians. In the same month, near Satu Mare, 35 
Gypsy houses were destroyed by Hungarian inhabitants of the town of 
Turulung. In April, in Seica Mare and Cilnic, Gypsy quarters were 
devastated; in neither case did the attackers claim a motive, or even a 
pretext.
	After the first visit of the miners to Bucharest, a rural Roma 
camp in Cuza Voda, near the Black Sea resort of Constanta, was ransacked 
and destroyed by a mob. The next month a Gypsy quarter was razed in 
Huedin, Transylvania. In October 1990, in Mihail Kogalniceanu, 32 Gypsy 
houses were destroyed by a mob of more than 500 people; Tartars, 
Mecedonians and Romanians, groups who see themselves as ethnically 
distinct but united in their hatred of Gypsies, who here constituted a 
relatively small population that lived apart, in rude shacks on an open 
field with a dirt road drawn in a ring around it.
	In the spring of 1991, fire swept through several towns near 
Bucharest and farther south, down by the Bulgarian border. In June 
Transylvania was again ablaze when, in a town called Plaiesii de Sus, 27 
houses were razed by a crowd of 300 people attacking the Romany quarter. 
Nearby, villagers lynched an innocent man in retaliation for a murder 
believed to have been committed by another Gypsy. The more attacks there 
were, the less people seemed to mind -- and, words, the less coverage 
they attracted, even in the newly freed Romanian press. This wasn't just 
"compassion fatigue." Arson and murder became an "understandable," and 
acceptable, trend in a period of painful social transition. ... While 
"dissident" journalists balked and whined about the fate of "the 
majority," the state acted to keep the minority, including the Roma, 
alive in the public imagination.
	Gypsies were a useful distraction from other conflicts. And so 
the state-owned television explained each attack on  settlements as the 
result of "the provocation of Gypsy thieves," even where the Gypsies 
played no part in the tensions that cost them their houses, and sometimes 
their lives.
....
There were no prosecutions. Investigations were grudging, and grindingly 
slow -- except when the criminals were Gypsies, or when there was a 
chance that they might be.
....
You didn't have to be Romanian to wonder: was there something about the 
Gypsies themselves that made them so wildly and universally unpopular? 
Apart from their shared identity as Gypsies, the victims of these attacks 
had little in common: they were from rich families and from poor ones; 
they were country folk and city-dwellers, criminals as well as obvious 
scapegoats; they were children, adults and old people. None of the 
victims was a "traditional" nomadic Gypsy; most had been sedentary for 
centuries, and some were assimilated to the degree that they no longer 
knew Romani. Was it their reputation as thieves and cheats? But even an 
ethnic breakdown recently undertaken by the Ministry of the Interior 
attributed only 11 percent of crime in Romania -- all of it petty crime 
-- to the Gypsies, who constitute 11 percent of the population. So what 
was it about the Gypsies? And what was it about the Romanians?
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >,
Igor GAZDIK > wrote:
>#In article >, 
>#says...
>#>
>#>Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:
>
>#>I think you should take some reading comprehension courses if you read
>#>into my message a surprise.  What does the Subject title mean to you,
>#>anyway?
>#>
>#>Joe
>
>    and what makes you believe that a butatot (even though living
>    in america) would be helped by a comprehension course?  what
>    is it he would comprehend, anyway???
>

You missed the train again, buddy! No wonder you're clueless. Keep reading.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

{Eloszor is, legyszives nem-ures 'Subject:' sort hasznalni, koszi ;-(!}
On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, Josef Sumegi wrote:

> Lehet magyar bet=FCket haszn=E1lni ebben a newsgroup-ban? Hogy n=E9znek e=
zek
> ki n=E1lad?
 Lehet hasznalni - de a hasznalatban levo terminalok jelentos reszen=20
(legalabbis az USA-ban, de valoszinu egyeb ekezettelen nyelvteruleteken=20
is) olvashatalanul nez ki ;-<...

 --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!



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 (Istvan Szucs) wrote:

>In article >,
>Judith Toth > wrote:
>| ANSWER TO ISTVAN SZUCS:
>| October 5th, 1996
>| 	A most distinguished Italian physicist Galileo Galilei in 1611 visited
>| Rome for the first time, where he was honorably received;
>but on his
>[...] more irrelevancies erased.


>| 	What  fascinating story about the great
>| scientist... and nce again
>| here is your chance  to  tell me that I bring up irrelevant and
>| dangerous subjects! 

>Nah... completely irrelevant to the relationship between
>Zionists and Communists, but this was not dangerous.
>If you cannot comment on something than that  is
>| irrelevant to you?  

>No.. I am just not interested in a wild goose change where
>if you cannot defend your views you just start talking about
>something different.

>Now, if you consider my opinions DANGEROUS - it
>| is your right  - but you are no better than the cardinals and monks of
>| the 17th Century who condemned scientists for  bringing up
>| controversial things they couldn't comment on therefore   considered
>| the ideas "dangerous" to their Church!  

>As you must realize my criteria of what is dangerous is
>vastly different from theirs. What I did about what I
>consider to be your dangerous scapegoating is quite
>different as well. THis is why your example is irrelevant
>and misleading. Once again you decided to resort to telling
>stories to evoke feelings, instead of conducting a rational
>debate. TOo bad.

>And you, because you cannot
>| refute  them, and for verification purposes you are unable to find the
>| sources of my quotations,  you label me someone who is doing
>| "UNFOUNDED SCAPEGOATING through propagating half truth lies and one
>| sided accounts of facts."

>Uhmm.. no.. that's not why I label your allegations
>propagation of half truth lies and one sided accounts as
>facts.In previous letters I have expressed what the one
>sided accounts, and half truths were. If you care you can
>read it.

> - So, if you cannot prove or refute
>| something then that's an "unfounded lie"?  

>No. See above.

>| 	Your style is a perfect example how people of certain persuasion  do
>| not or simply cannot go beyond a certain door, and I understand this
>| too, for In the meantime I don't have to follow YOUR
>obligations! 

>My obligations were to keep to the topic and keep the
>argument rational. This is the test of truth and this is the
>only way I am willing to debate. If this is the persuasion
>and door you are referring to then you are correct, I will
>not cross this door. 

>I
>| have learned enough about Judaism to know that you do have obligations
>| and limits.  You could not keep up with  discussions like these  even
>| if you wanted to, because you are obligated to adhere to certain
>| lines. 

>What the heck are you talking about? I have assumed no
>obligations, and I have not been asked to assume any
>obligations that would prevent me to adhere to any lines, or
>prevent me to keep to certain discussions. If any religion -
>Judaism is decentralized - this is what you fail to
>understand when you take opinion offered by one Jew and
>assume that that is the opinion of all Jews. I myself am not
>even religious by any stretch of the imagination.

>In the future however, perhaps you should stay away from my
>| postings...

>Perhaps. You'll see soon enough ;)

>| 	Anyway, it was enlightening to exchange  ideas with you. All our
>| discussions  are posted  now and  the readers shall decide who is
>| emotional or incoherent. and who is right or who is wrong.
>Amen to that

>Istvan
> ===========================================================
ANSWER TO ISTVAN SZUCS:
October 6th, 1996
I wrote the story about Galileo for comparison and you do whatever you
want with it. I put it separately since it is not directly relevant to
the subject of Zionism, Communist and ILYA EHRENBURG.

	YOU WROTE: <No.. I am just not interested in a wild goose change where
if you cannot defend your views you just start talking about something
different.> 
	Sorry, my friend, I did defend  and supported everything I posted by
legitimate sources which you naturally cannot dig up from anywhere for
verification. And why? I leave that up to your imagination. Nobody
asked you to participate in any "wild goose chase" and I did not beg
you for your opinions either. But I realize now : - YOU FEEL YOU MUST
REPLY   to defend whatever you are supposed to  defend, no matter what
the readers  think of your responses and even if you don't look so
good on the very end. 
	On the other hand you promissed to do some research to check me out.
Unsuccessul, you turn around and accuse me of putting the Jews into a
negative light, changing subjects, being irrelevant, can't hold a
conversation or discussion, propagating dangerous lies etc...
	I am a defender of good ethics you know, so  being a woman I politely
let you the gentelman  have the last word to end our stormy
exchanges... 
Judit Toth
http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth
> ======================================================================

In article >  (Jose
f Sumegi) writes:
>Lehet magyar betüket használni ebben a newsgroup-ban? Hogy néznek ezek
>ki nálad?

Lehet használni, csakhogy a lusta amcsik nem mindig csinálták, ami kell,
hogy ne csak a nyelvükön lehessen olvasni news-okat. Biztosra veheted,
hogy majd valaki panaszkodni fog, ilyenkor RTFM a iso8859 nevű FAQ felé.

Tehát jól néznek ki a betűid, és szabályos is az ékezetek használata kivéve,
úgy tudom, a Subject-sorban. Vagyis lehetőleg írd ezt a sort po'te'kezetekkel!

Üdv:
-- 
-- Olivier Clary   mailto:   http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1326/
Me'te'o-France/CNRM/Groupe Mode'lisation pour Assimiln. et Pre'vision, Toulouse
Aussi loin qu'est l'orient de l'occident, Il met loin de moi mes fautes --Ps103
Se nem kicsi, se nem nagy, / E'ppen hozza'm valo' vagy!  (Lakodalmas -Te'ka e.)

aheringer wrote:
> It maybe verlazito, but who can read this?  Agnes
> In article >,  says...
> >begin 644 milkok.txt

Azért lehetséges, ha igazán akarsz: uudecode, PC ékezet -> iso8859 stb...
Szóval kíváncsi voltam és megcsináltam, íme.

A híres Tocsik-szerződésről szól, de azóta hallom, hogy már kirúgták az ÁPV
összes igazgatóságát, ennyire súlyos az ügy.

-- Olivier

> ------------------------------------------------------

  Éjjel-nappal sötét ügyek
  Hom Gyula hétfôn napirend elôtt szót kért a Parlamentben, és három perc ötven
másodpercig tartó felszólalásában ígéretet tett az éppen soros korrupciógyanús 
ügy
kormányzati kivizsgálására. Elhangzott valami még a közös felelôsségrôl is, s b
eszéde
végén a miniszterelnök megköszönte az ellenzéknek azt, hogy vigyázó szemét a
gondokon tartja. Hom Gyula tehát bókolt az ellenzéknek. Vagyis nagy baj van.
 Arról a botrányról van szó, amelyik dr. Tocsik Márta úgynevezett sikerdíja nyo
-
mán robbant ki. Az ĹPV Rt. külsô szakértôként azzal bízta meg nevezett hölgyet
ez év elején, hogy alkudjon meg az önkormányzatokkal: érjék be kevesebbel, mint
amennyi a belterületi földjeiken lévô állami vállalatok átalakulása után nekik 
akár
részvényben, akár kápében a törvény szerint járna. (Lásd: Egy hét, 8. oldal.)
  E történet majd' minden egyes mozzanata vét a Magyar Köztársaság érvényben
lévô jogrendje ellen: az ugyan legfeljebb csak érthetetlen, hogy miért külsôsne
k
adták ki a munkát, az azonban törvényellenes, hogy dr. Tocsik pályáztatás nélkü
l
kapta a megbízást. (Suchman miniszter ennek az ellenkezôjét állítja, ergo nyilv
án-
való, hogy semmiféle pályáztatás nem volt.) Tocsik Mártát elôször ügyvédnek ti-
tulálták az arra illetékesek, aztán hamarosan kiderült, nem tagja egyik ügyvédi
kamarának sem, a hétfôi vitában pedig Deutsch képviselô (Fidesz) mellékesen
megjegyezte: dr. Tocsik ellen okirat-hamisítás miatt eljárás folyt. (Az 1990-es
 am-
nesztiarendelet miatt eredménye ennek nem lett. A rend kedvéért: dr. Tocsik bű-
nösségét tehát nem bizonyították). Több mint gyanúsak a pénzmozgások: a XVl.
kerületi önkormányzat csak egy bizonyos Vektor Bróker Rt.-n [VB) keresztüljut-
hatott hozzá kialkudott vagyonához, miután az rt levonta a közvetítô Vektor Rt.
(V) részesedését. A V és a VB két külön cég, igaz, ugyanazon címre vannak beje-
lentve, és a két cég vezetôje édestestvérek. Másképpen fogalmazva: az ĹPV Rt. j
e-
lentékeny állami vagyonrészt juttatott magánkézbe. Egyes politikusok családtag-
jainak ezen cégekben való közvetett érdekeltségérôl már hallani ezt-azt: minden
-
esetre sokatmondó, hogy ílyesfajta feltételezés azonnal felmerülhet.
 Az ĹPV Rt. egyébként a Legfelsôbb Bíróság precedensértékű ítéletét elsumákol-
va kényszerítette alkudozásra az önkormányzatokat, mondván, egyezzünk meg,
ha kapni akartok valamit. (1995 novemberében az LB 2,35 milliárd forintnyi rész
-
vényt ítélt meg a dunaújvárosi önkormányzatnak.) A hatalommal való visszaélés
klasszikus esete ez. De törvénysértést követtek el az önkormányzatok is, mivel 
a
(bármennyire indokolt) vagyonszerzés lázában égve figyelmen kívül hagyták a
közbeszerzési eljárás szabályait. És törvénysértô volt az Antall-Boross-kormány
,
fôként annak két érintett tagja, Szabó Tamás fôprivatizátor és Csepi Lajos akko
ri
ĹVÜ-tótumfaktum, akik nem hajtották végre az 1989. évi X111. törvényt, megala-
pozva ezzel a mai zavaros helyzetet.
 Suchman Et Co. szerint ôk egy rakás pénzt megtakarítottak az államnak. Az ön-
kormányzatok azt mondják, hogy legalább hozzájuthatnak javaik egy részéhez,
amik nélkül hamarosan becsôdölnének. A mai kormány a tegnapi mulasztásáról
beszél, s hogy nincs pénz, ezért a kényszermegoldás. A tegnapi kormány meg ar-
ról, hogy a mai nem ad pénzt az önkormányzatoknak, világos tehát, központosít,
hozza vissza a tanácsrendszert és így tovább.
 Mindenki a pénzre hivatkozik. S alig valaki a Köztársaság törvényeire.

-- 
-- Olivier Clary   mailto:   http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1326/
Me'te'o-France/CNRM/Groupe Mode'lisation pour Assimiln. et Pre'vision, Toulouse
Aussi loin qu'est l'orient de l'occident, Il met loin de moi mes fautes --Ps103
Se nem kicsi, se nem nagy, / E'ppen hozza'm valo' vagy!  (Lakodalmas -Te'ka e.)

In article >  () writes
:
>>GERMANY GRANTS MORE LOANS TO HUNGARY. [...]
>Isn't this like giving another glass of brandy to a drunk?

But in the following of the news item they said loans could only be used
by companies with at least some % of property of a company in some of the
counties (Lander) of Germany; that is, it would be used by companies for
their own purposes of modernization, rentability and such, not get into
the black hole of state budget.
-- 
-- Olivier Clary   mailto:   http://www.geocities.com/Paris/1326/
Me'te'o-France/CNRM/Groupe Mode'lisation pour Assimiln. et Pre'vision, Toulouse
Aussi loin qu'est l'orient de l'occident, Il met loin de moi mes fautes --Ps103
Se nem kicsi, se nem nagy, / E'ppen hozza'm valo' vagy!  (Lakodalmas -Te'ka e.)

#In article >,  
#says...
#>
#>Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:

#>I think you should take some reading comprehension courses if you read
#>into my message a surprise.  What does the Subject title mean to you,
#>anyway?
#>
#>Joe

	and what makes you believe that a butatot (even though living
	in america) would be helped by a comprehension course?  what
	is it he would comprehend, anyway???

#In article >, 
 says...
#>
#>

#>Wishy-washy Willy-Wally wrote:

# you dumbass. Then again, what can
#>anybody expect from a sexist, hyprocrite, pseudo-poet like you? (And 
#even vous

#>
#>Gabor
#>aka. the Friendly Vital Organ "Bland Gland" (to the Brigster and Willy)


	why not limiting these magyarisms to the hungarian "culture" ng?

84 m2, 2-bedroom condo overlooking the Buda Hills in a beautiful, 
small apartment house of Budapest'’s exclusive Rozsadomb disrict
(Nagybanyai Street) is for immediate sale. It features telephone, 
garage, hardwood floor and gas central heating. Easy access to the
city: downtown is just a short, convenient 15-minute ride by public 
transportation. You'll find other details on the Web page

http://spengler.econ.duke.edu/lakas1.html

If you are interested, please send an E-mail to .

Kedves Barataink!

Mindenkitol bocsanatot kerunk, hogy nem egeszen ide illo temaval zavarjuk a
lista olvasoit. Mentsegunkre szolgaljon, hogy itt erhetjuk el a legtobb magyar
ill.magyar erdeklodesu olvasot.
Szeretnenk az ohazatol - es a legozelebbi magyar bolttol - tavol eloknek
felajanlani, hogy ellatjuk oket magyar aruval, amelyet megrendelesuk alapjan
postai csomagban kuldenenk el cimukre.
Kerjuk tekintsek ezt az elso jelentkezesunket tajekozodasnak, a reszletek
kimunkalasa es website-unk epitese folyamatban.
E-mailen erkezo eszreveteleiket, tanacsaikat, kritikajukat tisztelettel varjak
Budapesten

Tibor es Gabor


Dear friends,
excuse us intruding the list, but this is the only knows way for us to reach
the most of hungarians.
We will offer those who live far from Hungary - and the next hungarian store -
to deliver hungarian goods in packages shiped by post.
Our website is under construction and so is the whole business.
Please mail your remarks, advices or critics to

Tibor and Gabor



> ---------------------------------------------------------
Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> ---------------------------------------------------------

Igor GAZDIK ) writes:
> #In article >,  
> #says...
> #>Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:
> 
> #>I think you should take some reading comprehension courses if you read
> #>into my message a surprise.  What does the Subject title mean to you,
> #>anyway?
> #>Joe
> 
> 	and what makes you believe that a butatot (even though living
> 	in america) would be helped by a comprehension course?  what

Mr Kovacuous is a Buta Total

In article >,
T.M.Lutas > wrote:
| In article >, 
| (Istvan Szucs) wrote:
| 
| > In article >,
| > T.M.Lutas > wrote:
| > | In article >, 
| > | (Istvan Szucs) wrote:
| 
| The extract that was posted here may have made claims but did not provide 
| evidence. I think that the PDSR has made a hash of the police as it has 
| in most of government. The police need to respect everybody's civil rights 
| but the report is calling police actions racist without providing evidence 
| that the police are any less a bunch of jerks to non-gypsies. The evidence 
| is probably there. Not providing it gives excuses. It's simply a bad move. 

Agreed, although I am not sure that what Wally posted was
all of the material, or that what Wally posted is not
sufficient to start taking the issue seriously and do an
investigation, or make steps to prevent atrocities from
happening. I am just not sure about the standards for such a
document, but overall I agree w ith your point.

| > | you need to show that there is a difference between their treatment and t
he 
| > | treatment of non-gypsy criminals.
| > 
| > This was also claimed by the report. I'll go back and quote,
| > but I remember something about claims that gypsies were
| > targeted by authorities and civlians.
| 
| Gypsies can be targeted because they have a higher rate of crime or gypsies 
| can be targeted because the police are racist SOB's who do not respect 
| human rights.

That depends on what you mean by targeted. I don't think
that gypsies can be targeted (in the way I brouhgt the word
up) because that would mean that you are targetting people
not based on their innocence or guilt, but another factor. 

 The solution should be tailored to the problem. If high 
| gypsy crime rates are the problem and the police are equally brutal to all 
| those that it targets, gypsy or not, then the solution to the problem will 
| have to be different than if the police are only brutal to
gypsies. 

I am not sure about this. IF there is an overalll problem
with police brutality - quite independently of this issue -
then that obviously needs to be addressed, but reduction of
brutality, unwarranted searches, raids is always beneficial,
and an investigation seems to be sufficiently well founded.

Istvan

CLARY Olivier > wrote:
>
>Lehet használni, csakhogy a lusta amcsik nem mindig csinálták, ami kell,
>hogy ne csak a nyelvükön lehessen olvasni news-okat. Biztosra veheted,
>hogy majd valaki panaszkodni fog, ilyenkor RTFM a iso8859 nevű FAQ felé.

Viszont azt sem kell feltetelezni, hogy mindenki GUI-t hasznal a Usenet
olvasasara, ahol az ilyen karakterkeszletek termeszetesek.  En pl. egy
egyszeru karaker-alapu olvasot hasznalok legtobbszor egy VT-100 terminal
emulatoron, ahol ezek a magyar betuk nem jelennek meg olvashatoan.
Arra meg sem idom, sem kedvem, hogy kikutassam hogyan lehetne igy is
megjeleniteni a magyar betuket.  Azt hiszem ezzel nem vagyok egyedul.

Egyebkent is, ha a betuk meg is jelennenek, azok irasa nem olyan
egyszeru az amerikai rendszeru klaviaturan, mivel egyszeruen nincsenek
rajta kulon billentyuk a specialis ekezetes magyar betukre.  A kulonbozo
Alt, s egyeb kombinaciok hasznalata meg csak meghosszabitja az irast.
Foleg, ha az ember ket ujjas po~co~go", mint yours truly. (Hiaba na, a
magyar gimiben nem tanitottak a gepelest.)
>
Pannon J.

In article >,
Judith Toth > wrote:
|  (Istvan Szucs) wrote:
| ===========================================================
| ANSWER TO ISTVAN SZUCS:
| October 6th, 1996
| I wrote the story about Galileo for comparison and you do whatever you
| want with it. I put it separately since it is not directly relevant to
| the subject of Zionism, Communist and ILYA EHRENBURG.
| 
| 	YOU WROTE: <No.. I am just not interested in a wild goose change where
| if you cannot defend your views you just start talking about something
| different.> 
| 	Sorry, my friend, I did defend  and supported everything I posted by
| legitimate sources which you naturally cannot dig up from anywhere for
| verification. And why? I leave that up to your imagination. Nobody
| asked you to participate in any "wild goose chase" and I did not beg
| you for your opinions either. But I realize now : - YOU FEEL YOU MUST
| REPLY   to defend whatever you are supposed to  defend, no matter what
| the readers  think of your responses and even if you don't look so
| good on the very end. 

Uhhh... you fail to see my point for the nth time. I believe
that whoever needs to understand already does. If you don't
- too bad.

| 	On the other hand you promissed to do some research to check me out.
| Unsuccessul, you turn around and accuse me of putting the Jews into a
| negative light, changing subjects, being irrelevant, can't hold a
| conversation or discussion, propagating dangerous lies
etc...

I never said it was unsuccessful. It is WIP, but that is not
the basis (as I already said multiple times) that I
made those statements. Ihave told you and those who read the
posts why they are irrelevant, why they are dangerous and
why they are half truths. One more time - among other things
I take objection with the fact that you keep bringing up
names of Jews who were communists and but fail to
acknowledge that there were and are many jews on the
opposite side, those who suffered and persecuted by
communists, those who were martyrs defending
democracy. Had you admitted this it would have been clear
that there were  admittedly Communist Jews among them
Communists Jews who were nothing less then beasts, but that
there is nothign ithat would warrant and justify the accross
the board allegations you had made. 
Furthermore I have mentioned why a great number of your
quotes are irrelevant to the debate at hand regarding
Communism and Zionism. You would not  accept restriction of
the debate to this topic, and as a result made it impossible
to conduct a concise debate about the topic you brought
up. This means that any topic you choose to bring up I woudl
have to engage you on, and any topic you could just abandon
if you felt you might lose. This is good for propaganda -
but not for debate, and I am not willing to support your
propaganda. 


| 	I am a defender of good ethics you know, so  being a woman I politely
| let you the gentelman  have the last word to end our stormy
| exchanges... 

For the above reasons I find your ethic questionable.

CLARY Olivier > wrote:
>
>But in the following of the news item they said loans could only be used
>by companies with at least some % of property of a company in some of the
>counties (Lander) of Germany; that is, it would be used by companies for
>their own purposes of modernization, rentability and such, not get into
>the black hole of state budget.

If you believe that loans will actually be used for the targeted
purposes, be my guest.  Supposedly the loans to the Kadar regime were
such targeted loans, too, yet it's now hard to see where the money
actually went, except to maintain an artificial standard of living.
Besides, money is fluid; earmarking it to some purpose only allows funds
previously earmarked for it to be freed up and go somewhere else.
And it all ads up to the total debt owned; debt that should be paid off,
not increased still.

Joe

Sunny Chan  > wrote:
>
>Hogy Vagy! A nevem Sunny. A legény HongKongni vagyok.  Tanulok nyelved,
>de nem beszélek jól magyarul!  You may be a bit suprised or fightened by
>my lousy Hungarian.  I've been to Budapest twice in 1995 and falling in
>love with your country.  Coincidently, two of my friends have
>established a company in Pest and I'm invited to work w/his crews. 

And the clock is ticking for Honkong, I guess, huh?

Joe

All,

I'm looking for a reputable personnel recruiting company in Hungary
in business of matching and placing high tech candidates in permanent
or contract job positions. Alternately, is anyone aware of a similar
recruiting service in North America that specializes with international
partnerships matching Hungarian/English speaking engineers with companies
that do business in Hungary and North America.

Thank you

Horvath Attila


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I am sorry. This intrusion in your group is because did not have any
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I desire news or mail of galician people in other country.
Thanks.
_____________________________
______EN GALEGO____________
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Saudos.
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 wrote:
> 
> Azt hiszem a sherif meg ott van.
Tegnap en is ott voltam, de csak egy PC allitott meg, nem a Sheriff

kAos

In article >,  says...
>
>ANSWER TO ISTVAN SZUCS:
>October 5th, 1996
>        A most distinguished Italian physicist Galileo Galilei in 1611 
visited
>Rome for the first time, where he was honorably received; but on his
>return to Florence he became more and more involved in controversy,
>which gradually took a theological turn. The monks preached against
>him, and in 1616 he found himself again obliged to proceed to Rome,
>where he is doubtfully said to have pledged himself to abstain from
>promulgating his astronomical views. In 1623 Galileo
>replied to an attack upon him in his Saggiatore, a masterpiece of
>eloquence, which drew upon him the fury of the Jesuits. In 1632, with
>the permission of the pope, he published a dialogue expounding the
>Copernican system as against the Ptolemaic. 
>        A congregation of cardinals, monks and mathematicians, all sworn
>enemies of Galileo, examined his work, condemned it as HIGHLY
>DANGEROUS (!) and summoned him before the tribunal of Inquisition.
>The veteran philosopher was compelled to go to Rome early in 1633, and
>was condemned to renounce upon his knees (!) the truths he had
>maintained. At the moment when he arose, he exclaimed "E PUR SI
>MUOVE!" /and yet it moves!/ Upon this he was sentenced to the dungeons
>of the Inquisition for an indefinite time... - If it was  up to those
>monks we would  still be in the 17th Century! Thanks to Galileo  we
>now  know what the planets are doing around us!...
>        What  fascinating story about the great scientist... and once 
again
>here is your chance  to  tell me that I bring up irrelevant and
>dangerous subjects! If you cannot comment on something than that  is
>irrelevant to you?  Now, if you consider my opinions DANGEROUS - it
>is your right  - but you are no better than the cardinals and monks of
>the 17th Century who condemned scientists for  bringing up
>controversial things they couldn't comment on therefore   considered
>the ideas "dangerous" to their Church!  And you, because you cannot
>refute  them, and for verification purposes you are unable to find the
>sources of my quotations,  you label me someone who is doing
>"UNFOUNDED SCAPEGOATING through propagating half truth lies and one
>sided accounts of facts." - So, if you cannot prove or refute
>something then that's an "unfounded lie"?  
>        Your style is a perfect example how people of certain persuasion 
 do
>not or simply cannot go beyond a certain door, and I understand this
>too, for In the meantime I don't have to follow YOUR obligations! I
>have learned enough about Judaism to know that you do have obligations
>and limits.  You could not keep up with  discussions like these  even
>if you wanted to, because you are obligated to adhere to certain
>lines. In the future however, perhaps you should stay away from my
>postings...
>        Anyway, it was enlightening to exchange  ideas with you. All our
>discussions  are posted  now and  the readers shall decide who is
>emotional or incoherent. and who is right or who is wrong.
>BEST WISHES
>Judit Toth

You are, Jucika.  (Incidentally, I have read the whole discussion and 
still maintain that ravings and ramblings like yours should be ignored - 
which I will do in the future).  Agnes
>http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth
>======================================================
>

In article > Josef Sumegi,
 writes:
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Az igazi mégis az ISO-8859-2 lenne , mert az összes magyar
ékezetes betüt tartalmazza. 

A kérdésedet illetően ("Lehet magyar betüket használni ebben
a newsgroup-ban?") hogyne lehetne, és minél többen használjuk
annál nagyobb az esélye, annak,  hogy Pannon Joe lecseréli vég-
re a nagypapájától örökölt VT-100 terminálját.

Tamás

In article >,
cristian > wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Oct 1996, T.M.Lutas wrote:
> 
> > Unfortunately, one of the people who spread noxiousness is yourself. You 
> > can take your general position without being noxious, or even particularly 
> > unpleasant. You do your own cause more harm than good with your obscenities
 
> > and displays of barbarity. Or perhaps it is on purpose...
> 
> Of course it is on purpose. Do you think 'dickheads' understand, or at
> least are perturbed, by any other language but the one of vulgarity and
> barbarism ?  It is the only language that holds any fluency with a certain
> crowd.

The danger is not in 1 or even 10 obnoxious characters but rather the 
thousands of people who read and are influenced by them. If you get in with 
the slop the pigs will eat you (or so my father keeps telling me). If you
regularly answer wrongheaded, reasoned positions with bile, invective, and 
insult then they will be believed and you will be discounted. 

> However it is not my fault if for some, the truth is 'particularly
> unpleasant' ;  On that you can pick an argument with God, it is him that
> brought the wandering Gypsies and the 'settling' magyars. However seing
> with people like you and Cruceanu, I am tempted by the thought that God
> brought these unpleasant people upon us, as a punishment for our (your)
> vickedness !

No, I think you are more a penance for my sins than the gypsies or even 
Pitigoi. You take positions that are sometimes close to mine and ruin 
them with your presentation. You are like the drunk that a politician 
will pay to hand out his opponent's campaign literature. The positions 
in the literature may be fine, even laudable, but the messenger reeks and 
ruins any message he passes on. 

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

In article >,
 (Wally Keeler) wrote:

> T.M.Lutas ) writes:
> > In article >,
> >  (Wally Keeler) wrote:
> >> In > Oct 1\96
> >>  (T.M.Lutas) wrote:

> >> |The gypsies *do* have a higher crime rate, they *would* be hit harder by 
 
> >> |a general police disregard for human rights. But if they would attack it
> >> |as a general disregard instead of a special problem of their ethnicity,
> >> |they may find themselves with a wider (and winning) coalition to
stop it.  

> >> There is some merit in the suggestion of "a general police disregard for
> >> human rights", which is true, however, there does exist a
> >> disproportionate disregard for the rights of the Gypsy community that
> >> appears far in excess to the disproportionate "higher crime rate." What
> >> the Gypsy rights organs might attempt is to build coalitions with
> >> Romanian rights organs to address the problems. If there is a
> >> disproportionate violation of Gypsy rights, then there is an interest
> >> for the Romanian community to protect itself from tragic backlash. It is
> >> in the interest of all sides that disproportionate abuse whither.

> > Actually it is in the interest of all sides that all abuse wither. 
> > Legitimate law enforcement, even targetted law enforcement is not abusive 
> > when done right. 
> > 
> > You make the claim that the targetting exceeds the higher crime rate. 
> > Present the evidence. A naked claim without evidence to back it up is 
> > worthless. It does not good against racists and it provides an opening 
> 
> You make the claim that the Gypsy community has a higher crime rate.
> Present the evidence. 

You seemed perfectly willing to accept it one round ago.

> A naked claim without evidence to back it up is
> worthless. What study was made by an independent researcher(s) that proved
> that Gypsies were responsible for such a high rate of crime deserving of
> such continuous targetting? Not perception of a higher crime rate, but
> actual crime. Arrest statistics prove nothing, except that one community
> is targetted more than another, and if this is the case, then conviction
> rates may well be skewed, because Romanian criminals are not pursued.
> After all Romanians had gotten away with a lot of arson and murder -- no
> arrests, convictions, virtually no investigations. Hmmmmmm!

I'm not going to start blindly researching facts to fit your fancy, I just 
don't have the time. From my own (admittedly limited) experience, I didn't 
see anything to put me on guard to a massive anti-gypsy police conspiracy 
theory. Gypsy-PDSR relations have been generally close over the last seven 
years (perhaps too close for the public good). The disgusting spectacle of 
a set of gypsy leaders threatening violence if the PDSR mayoral candidate 
in Bucuresti was not elected certainly shows that gypsies have not been 
alienated by their treatment at the hands of the PDSR law enforcement 
machine. 

Set a reasonable standard for evidence and I will try to get it for you if 
it exists. My nose tells me that the higher crime rate exists but I doubt 
you would find that fact authoritative.

btw: you completely quoted the entire message even though you did not 
respond to four-fifths of it. Please prune the non-relevant text in future. 
It's just good newsgroup netiquette. 

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

....mi finis jam kaj transdonis al la eldonejo mian POLLINGVAN LIBRON, en
kiu mi i.a. mencias pri Imre Ungar, la fama hungara pianisto. Polaj
enciklopedioj nur informas pri lia naski^g-jaro. Sed kiam li mortis? A~u
eble li ankora~u hazarde vivas, kion mi ne kredas. Kiu el vi - hungaroj
povus min helpi?

Kore salutas vin

ANDREO PETTYN