on Jan 29 15:05:27 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #899:

>... Janos Zsargo said something to the effect that,
>"so what? If Hungary remained independent in 1848 or before, she couldn't
>have lost more than she lost at Trianon." Well, Janos is wrong. Hungary
>could have lost more: like Poland Hungary could have disappeared from the
>map of Europe! Trianon wasn't the worst possible outcome. Several other
>scanarios can be envisaged.
>
There is something wrong with this logic.  Last time I looked at the map,
Poland was indeed there, LARGER than ever.  Eva probably knows as well as
anyone that earlier rumors of Poland's demise were exaggerated.
>
>        In any case, this discussion doesn't lead anywhere. By now, all the
>readers know that you think that the Habsburg connection was detrimental to
>Hungary while I think otherwise. If people are interested in the subject
>they can get a few books and read on the subject and make up their own minds
>which interpretation is more sympathetic to them. Why don't we just leave it
>that way?
>
>        Eva Balogh

Please don't. Probably I am not the only one following this thread with
interest.  I hope Jeliko (and Eva, if she is up to it) will continue this
most interesting topic.

Ferenc

At 00:36 31/01/97 -0500, Ferenc wrote:
 on Jan 29 15:05:27 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #899:

<snipped comments about Poland's continued existence>
>
>     In any case, this discussion doesn't lead anywhere. By now, all the
>>readers know that you think that the Habsburg connection was detrimental to
>>Hungary while I think otherwise. If people are interested in the subject
>>they can get a few books and read on the subject and make up their own minds
>>which interpretation is more sympathetic to them. Why don't we just leave it
>>that way?
>>
>>        Eva Balogh
>
>Please don't. Probably I am not the only one following this thread with
>interest.  I hope Jeliko (and Eva, if she is up to it) will continue this
>most interesting topic.
>
>Ferenc

Right on! These were my thoughts exactly! Please continue your most
interesting discussion!

Johanne/Janka
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

E.Balogh wrote:

>the Hungarian government, both dated on March 28. The Court had four demands
>concerning the changing of the wording of these laws. (1) the palatine, in
>the king's absence, should not have unlimited power as the Hungarians
>proposed; or rather, only the current palatine should have that right
>(Archduke Stephen); (2) In addition to the responsible Hungarian government
>there should be still a Hungarian "kancellaria"; (3) Incomes hitherto
>collected to cover common expenses should not be handled by the Hungarian
>finance minister but should be handled by a common treasury; and (4)
>military affairs should remain in the hands of the king.

What would that Hungarian 'kancellaria' have been for? For a 'shadow
government' (arnyek kormany)? Wasn't it as redicoulous demand as the
separate budget and army from the Hungarian side?
As far as the last two demands are concerned, they could be (and I am
pretty sure they were) considered very dangereous. If the Hungarians
had obeyed they would have given up every mean of defence and had to
trust the word of the Court. Well, it was not exactly 'eletbiztositas'.

>        Not a word about anything concerning the freedom of the serfs. All
>four demands concerned Hungary's standing within the empire. If you read
>these four demands carefully--and keep in mind that these objecions were
>registered at the end of March 1848--you will see the genesis of the
>Compromise of 1867.

Well, as the Hungarians probably the Court had no clear idea for the
future relation of the Empire and Hungary, too. There were different
groups trying to influence the emperor and was not sure which one
would suceed. What you wrote above is simple your interpretation,
you have nothing to support it.

>        What you or Kossuth or most of the Hungarians found perfectly
>reasonable might not be reasonable for Stur, Hodza, or Jelacic.

Jelacic! He was probably not interested in at all what the Hungarians
could offer. If he was intended to do anything for Croatia than he
wanted it from Vienna. By the way he was a general of the imperial
army and a key figure of the conservative group at the Court. Nem
lehet egy lapon emliteni a tobbi nemzetisegi vezetovel.

J.Zs

I would be also interested on the disk, should anyone get wind of its release.
                                Koszonom,
                                Panagiotis

At 11:04 PM 1/30/97 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:

<snip>
>It would be propaganda because: a) you can't be trusted to verify anything
>before rushing into print with it. (You admit as much in the above graph)

No.  Haste, and my reluctance to verify a quote, any quoe, does not make it
propaganda.  There is no grand schema here, Sam.  But as usual, if you want
to see propaganda, go ahead and see propaganda.  It's your deception, not mine.

>and b) your selection from an American army manual doesn't in the remotest
>read like anything from an American army manual.

OK. Show me what they read like.  Read me the U. S. Army Training Manual No.
2000-25 (1928-1932).  I'm panting uncontrollably just waiting to be proved
wrong.

>I can stand criticism of things American when it is informed criticism and
>not the usual ranting of vague Canadian anarcho-leftism.

Oh yeah?  You'd be more credible if you offered some informed criticism of
things American.  Do you realize that you never do.  In fact, whenever
anyone is critical of American foreign policy, government, or society, you
put on your Superman's cape and fight for truth, justice, and the American
way.  But boy, are you eager to pounce on the Hungarian nationalists on this
list.  So am I, but at least I criticize indiscriminately.  Has it ever
occured to you that Ferenc Novak, Janos Zsargo (who may already sense that
this thread is heading for a discussion of homosexuality), and you, make a
rather nice political triad.

>You can always
>tell the difference between me and Janos -- I'm the one whose English is
>intelligible.

Yes, I've noticed that difference.  But when you get beyond your grasp of
the language, the meanings and sentiments are similar, if not identical
(minus the Hungarian accent).

>>I'll get back to the rest of your comments when I have a bit more time.
>
>I think I speak for all of us when I say that I just don't know how I'll
>pass the time before you carry out the above threat.

Just consider the wait, foreplay.  You'll enjoy it more when it's over.

Joe Szalai

"Propaganda, to be effective, must be believed. To be believed, it must be
credible. To be credible, it must be true."
          Hubert H. Humphrey

Dear Colleadues,

1) 
The moderator of the Hungarian Lobby, Peter Orban did it again: Out of the
100 letters received in response to professor Haraszti's optimistic OP-ED
article in the NYTimes, this is what he wrote this morning:
"Romania's Promises
In "Toward a New Europe," Miklos Haraszti suggests that a new era began inthe
relations between Hungary and Romania when the two countries signed a
reconciliation treaty last September.
       Although Mr. Haraszti says that the agreement is a "land for ethnic
rights" deal, in actuality the Hungarian Government traded land for a ROMISE
of ethnic rights.
       The Hungarian minority in Romania is still waiting for restitution of
the University of Cluj, restoration of confiscated church properties ans
enactment of a law guaranteeing collective human rights. Thus, Romania still
has a long way to go, but in signing the treaty, its first step is the right
one. Peter I. Orban, Achen,Germany"

Well done Peter! (Factual, polite, fair, brief.) I am hoping that Gyorgy
Frunda, Bela Marko, Istvan Tokes or some other leader of the Transylvanian
minority will use the opening and interest created by Haraszti and Orban to
now write a full OP ED article on how they see the future of Transylvania.

2)
The author of "The Fall of Yugoslavia", Misha Glenny has an excellent and
detailed OP ED article in Today's NYTimes on "new crises in the Balkans."
Neither the Foreign Ministery of Hungary, nor our lobby can be proud of the
fact that Glenny does not even mention Vojvodina or the Hungarian minority
there. I have no time to write a letter (or sample letter), but one of you
should. This is a similar opportunity as was Miklos Haraszti's OP ED article.

3)
Kriszti Mendonca has expanded our web page including a number of fine
photographs and maps. You only need to click on the words (say Dunakiliti)
and the illustration appears. Please visit
(http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm) and drop her a note of thanks:

         Istvan Lippai, a retired waterworks engineer in Colorado, has taken
on the Slovak construction lobby on their own home turf, on the international
list of water-works engineers and succeeded. He too deserves our thanks.
Tamas Bene is our contact in Bratislava with the Slovak press, Marcel Szabo
is working on bringing 30 Hungarian lawschool students to The Hague, so that
they learn the inner workings of the ICJ. Peter Orban is leading the effort
to secure not only the support of  Vice President Gore, but also a meeting
with him. So, the team "holding the Danube fort" while I am on the trip will
be: Kriszti (web-page), Istvan Lippai (technical), Tamas Bene (in Slovakia),
Marcel Szabo (at the court) and Peter Orban (overall). Their addresses are:
	,
	
	, 
              
              

4)
I got some complaints that I do not reply to my mail, or to people arguing
with my views. This is a misunderstanding. I do reply to all my personal
mail, but I do not have time to read the general discussions or comments on
HAL, or any other list. (I do subscribe to HL and act on all HL-Action
calls.) So, if you want to reach me, please use my personal address. By the
way, I will be gone from the 3rd to the 19th of February.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Dear Colleadues,

1) 
The moderator of the Hungarian Lobby, Peter Orban did it again: Out of the
100 letters received in response to professor Haraszti's optimistic OP-ED
article in the NYTimes, this is what he wrote this morning:
"Romania's Promises
In "Toward a New Europe," Miklos Haraszti suggests that a new era began inthe
relations between Hungary and Romania when the two countries signed a
reconciliation treaty last September.
       Although Mr. Haraszti says that the agreement is a "land for ethnic
rights" deal, in actuality the Hungarian Government traded land for a ROMISE
of ethnic rights.
       The Hungarian minority in Romania is still waiting for restitution of
the University of Cluj, restoration of confiscated church properties ans
enactment of a law guaranteeing collective human rights. Thus, Romania still
has a long way to go, but in signing the treaty, its first step is the right
one. Peter I. Orban, Achen,Germany"

Well done Peter! (Factual, polite, fair, brief.) I am hoping that Gyorgy
Frunda, Bela Marko, Istvan Tokes or some other leader of the Transylvanian
minority will use the opening and interest created by Haraszti and Orban to
now write a full OP ED article on how they see the future of Transylvania.

2)
The author of "The Fall of Yugoslavia", Misha Glenny has an excellent and
detailed OP ED article in Today's NYTimes on "new crises in the Balkans."
Neither the Foreign Ministery of Hungary, nor our lobby can be proud of the
fact that Glenny does not even mention Vojvodina or the Hungarian minority
there. I have no time to write a letter (or sample letter), but one of you
should. This is a similar opportunity as was Miklos Haraszti's OP ED article.

3)
Kriszti Mendonca has expanded our web page including a number of fine
photographs and maps. You only need to click on the words (say Dunakiliti)
and the illustration appears. Please visit
(http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm) and drop her a note of thanks:

         Istvan Lippai, a retired waterworks engineer in Colorado, has taken
on the Slovak construction lobby on their own home turf, on the international
list of water-works engineers and succeeded. He too deserves our thanks.
Tamas Bene is our contact in Bratislava with the Slovak press, Marcel Szabo
is working on bringing 30 Hungarian lawschool students to The Hague, so that
they learn the inner workings of the ICJ. Peter Orban is leading the effort
to secure not only the support of  Vice President Gore, but also a meeting
with him. So, the team "holding the Danube fort" while I am on the trip will
be: Kriszti (web-page), Istvan Lippai (technical), Tamas Bene (in Slovakia),
Marcel Szabo (at the court) and Peter Orban (overall). Their addresses are:
	,
	
	, 
              
              

4)
I got some complaints that I do not reply to my mail, or to people arguing
with my views. This is a misunderstanding. I do reply to all my personal
mail, but I do not have time to read the general discussions or comments on
HAL, or any other list. (I do subscribe to HL and act on all HL-Action
calls.) So, if you want to reach me, please use my personal address. By the
way, I will be gone from the 3rd to the 19th of February.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Dear Colleadues,

1)
The moderator of the Hungarian Lobby, Peter Orban did it again: Out of the
100 letters received in response to professor Haraszti's optimistic OP-ED
article in the NYTimes, this is what he wrote this morning:
"Romania's Promises
In "Toward a New Europe," Miklos Haraszti suggests that a new era began inthe
relations between Hungary and Romania when the two countries signed a
reconciliation treaty last September.
       Although Mr. Haraszti says that the agreement is a "land for ethnic
rights" deal, in actuality the Hungarian Government traded land for a ROMISE
of ethnic rights.
       The Hungarian minority in Romania is still waiting for restitution of
the University of Cluj, restoration of confiscated church properties ans
enactment of a law guaranteeing collective human rights. Thus, Romania still
has a long way to go, but in signing the treaty, its first step is the right
one. Peter I. Orban, Achen,Germany"

Well done Peter! (Factual, polite, fair, brief.) I am hoping that Gyorgy
Frunda, Bela Marko, Istvan Tokes or some other leader of the Transylvanian
minority will use the opening and interest created by Haraszti and Orban to
now write a full OP ED article on how they see the future of Transylvania.

2)
The author of "The Fall of Yugoslavia", Misha Glenny has an excellent and
detailed OP ED article in Today's NYTimes on "new crises in the Balkans."
Neither the Foreign Ministery of Hungary, nor our lobby can be proud of the
fact that Glenny does not even mention Vojvodina or the Hungarian minority
there. I have no time to write a letter (or sample letter), but one of you
should. This is a similar opportunity as was Miklos Haraszti's OP ED article.

3)
Kriszti Mendonca has expanded our web page including a number of fine
photographs and maps. You only need to click on the words (say Dunakiliti)
and the illustration appears. Please visit
(http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm) and drop her a note of thanks:

         Istvan Lippai, a retired waterworks engineer in Colorado, has taken
on the Slovak construction lobby on their own home turf, on the international
list of water-works engineers and succeeded. He too deserves our thanks.
Tamas Bene is our contact in Bratislava with the Slovak press, Marcel Szabo
is working on bringing 30 Hungarian lawschool students to The Hague, so that
they learn the inner workings of the ICJ. Peter Orban is leading the effort
to secure not only the support of  Vice President Gore, but also a meeting
with him. So, the team "holding the Danube fort" while I am on the trip will
be: Kriszti (web-page), Istvan Lippai (technical), Tamas Bene (in Slovakia),
Marcel Szabo (at the court) and Peter Orban (overall). Their addresses are:
        ,
        
        ,
              
              

4)
I got some complaints that I do not reply to my mail, or to people arguing
with my views. This is a misunderstanding. I do reply to all my personal
mail, but I do not have time to read the general discussions or comments on
HAL, or any other list. (I do subscribe to HL and act on all HL-Action
calls.) So, if you want to reach me, please use my personal address. By the
way, I will be gone from the 3rd to the 19th of February.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

>I would be also interested on the disk, should anyone get wind of its release.
>                                Koszonom,
>                                Panagiotis


Dear Mr. Panagiotis;

There are at the present, 8  Hungarian history books on:

http://www.net.hu/corvinus

There will be more shortly. You can dowload them too.


A few on:

http://www.msstate.edu/archives/history/hungary.html


Yhere will be  an other CD-ROM  published this year  with about 40-50
books, free of charge.

I will keep you posted.

Szabolcs Magyarody

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to 
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the 
prime task of the Hungarian Lobby. 

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective 
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send 
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your 
acquaintances who care about human rights. 
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is 
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American 
citizens.
  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
    

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave
Washington, D.C.
(e-mail: )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President,

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

We must lead as we pass on the bridge to the 21st century, just as we 
led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the 
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from 
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's 
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice. 
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The 
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President: In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently 
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the 
future, is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be 
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous 
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would 
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a 
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate 
the need for our G.I.s to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million community of Hungarian-Americans, I
ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all indigenous national
minorities of Central Europe an integral part of your foreign policy.

Respectfully yours

Your name, address and title. If this letter is signed by many, please
use the attached form to list the names and addresses.

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave
Washington, D.C.
(e-mail: )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President,

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

USA must lead as we pass on the bridge to the 21st century, just as 
you led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President: In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently 
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the
future, is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our G.I.s to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part
of your foreign policy. 

Respectfully yours

Your name, address and title. If this letter is signed by many, please
use the attached form to list the names and addresses.

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________

Not all agree with Haraszti's optimistic assessment of the future
in Transylvania. A good case in point is the recent article from the
Conflict Research Centre, RMC, Sandhurst in England, under the title
"Romania 1996: From Autocracy to Democracy".

A brief excerpt: "But despite the new atmosphere of cooperation, reports
from ethnic Hungarians in the city of Sfintu Gheorghe, central
Transylvania, suggested that the Romanian Army was continuing to build
gigantic barracks on the outskirts of the town for some thousands of
gendarmes, while the Air Force had intensified training flights over
Transylvania. Local people saw this as a new way of changing the
population's make-up and as a means of exerting terror."

The lengthy article is also available on the net:

        gopher://marvin.nc3a.nato.int:70/11/secdef


CSABA K ZOLTANI

At 12:36 AM 1/31/97 -0500, Ferenc Novak wrote:
 on Jan 29 15:05:27 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #899:

>There is something wrong with this logic.  Last time I looked at the map,
>Poland was indeed there, LARGER than ever.  Eva probably knows as well as
>anyone that earlier rumors of Poland's demise were exaggerated.

        I somehow don't think that Ferenc Novak or any other Hungarian,
including me, would have liked if Hungary ended up in the same boat as
Poland did in the eighteenth century. Ferenc Novak's reference to Poland
which didn't disappear from the map of Europe is now the second one,
following Janos Zsargo's similar remark. I can't quite believe that either
Ferenc or Janos are so ignorant as not to know that Poland DID disappear
from the map of Europe for about 150 years. Have you ever heard of the three
partitions of Poland, which occurred between 1772 and 1795? The first
partition was done by Russia, Prussia and Austria. The Austrian empire
acquired Galicia and Lodomeria at that time. The second partition took place
in 1793 (participants were Russia and Prussia) and the third in 1795 when
Austria also took participated and annexed areas known as Little Poland and
West Galicia. Maria Theresa "wept but took it anyway" as it is jokingly
mentioned in the literature. That's how Austria-Hungary had Galicia as one
of its provinces until the end of World War I. And surely, you must have
heard about all those unsuccessful revolutions against Russia until the
"Kingdom of Poland," created at the Congress of Vienna, was completely
absorbed in the Russian Empire. Even the language of instruction in the
schools was Russian.

        Yes, Poland was resurrected at the end of World War I but it was
nowhere as large as it had been prior to the partitions in spite of the fact
that Russia was not in the position to take what it felt belonged to her.
(See Soviet-Polish War). Lithuania was gone, Belarus was gone, part of the
Ukrainian territories were gone. Danzig was for all practical purposes gone.

        Poland's losses in World War II were incredibly high and the Soviet
Union was ready to take what it had coveted all along, regardless of
Poland's status in the war or its sacrifices. Yes, Poland got compensated in
the West at the expense of Germany but today's Poland is certainly not
LARGER than it was before. In fact, a great deal smaller. Poland lost most
of its non-Polish territories and some more. It is another matter that the
western territories Poland received were economically more developed than
the territories she lost in the East to Russia. Still, it is hard to
reconcile yourself that the historical territories of your country are no
longer there and you were "shifted" a bit in this or that direction.

        Eva Balogh

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the
prime task of the Hungarian Lobby.

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your
acquaintances who care about human rights.
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American
citizens.
  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
   

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave
Washington, D.C.
(e-mail: )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President,

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

We must lead as we pass on the bridge to the 21st century, just as we
led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President: In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the
future, is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our G.I.s to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million community of Hungarian-Americans, I
ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all indigenous national
minorities of Central Europe an integral part of your foreign policy.

Respectfully yours

Your name, address and title. If this letter is signed by many, please
use the attached form to list the names and addresses.

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave
Washington, D.C.
(e-mail: )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President,

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

USA must lead as we pass on the bridge to the 21st century, just as
you led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President: In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the
future, is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our G.I.s to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part
of your foreign policy.

Respectfully yours

Your name, address and title. If this letter is signed by many, please
use the attached form to list the names and addresses.

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
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Barna Bozoki writes:


>I just read in the Magyar Radio "Szulofoldunk" program booklet that Bela
>Kiraly plans to publish a CD-ROM disk with 22 of his books on
>Hungarian history ".. from St Stephan to the present". He says
>the disk will be introduced this month and will be distributed widely.
>May be somebody on the list can tell you where to get it. I think it would
>be a very good reference in your research.
>
>Here is the exact quote from "Szulofoldunk", Febr. 1997:
>"Nagyon buszke vagyok, hogy most olyan fordulohoz ertunk, hogy elsonek mi
>vagyunk azok -- az en tarsasagom: az Atlanti Kutato es Kiado Tarsulat --,
>amely belep az elektronikus mediaba. Most keszul egy CD-ROM, amelyiken 22
>konyvunk teljes tartalma rajta lesz. Januarban fogjuk bemutatni es
>igyekszunk rengeteg peldanyban szetosztani, mert ebben van a magyar
>tortenelem Szent Istvantol a mai kormanyig."

Kiraly is almost correct, I think the series he is talking about was not the
first. In September during one of my lightning visits to Hungary, I have
received a CD on Hungarian history published in context of the millcentenial.
I have posted info on it on this newsgroup. The first CD in the promised
series related to early Hungarian history. I have lent the CD to a friend
because I was very busy with other things and traveling for an extensive
period, but I will gt it back and comment on the contents.

Regards,Jeliko.

Eva Balogh writes:

>        Practically a "must" for anyone interested in the period. Gratz was
>a liberal-conservative politician, finance minister in 1917, and later,
>minister of foreign affairs in the first Teleki government. He was a
>legitimist, i.e., those who supported the King Karl and later Otto as the
>legitimate king of Hungary. His book on the revolutions is almost a primary
>source. But, of course, you have to keep in mind that he was a conservative
>politician and a legitimist.

I agree 100 %.

Regards,Jeliko

 on Jan 30 20:47:33 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #900:

>You can always tell the difference between me and Janos -- I'm the one whose
>English is intelligible.

This is unfair, and you know it, Sam.  Shame on you.  And think about this:
his English is probably far better than your Hungarian.

Ferenc

 on Jan 30 20:47:33 EST 1997 in HUNGARY #900:

>You can always tell the difference between me and Janos -- I'm the one whose
>English is intelligible.

This can4t be true. Quite arrogant. Ein "haesslicher
Amerikaner". Dabei war ich immer ein Freund Amerikas.
Disappointed. I quite often shared his opinions.
Ertelmes embernek tuent volt...
Miklos Hoffmann

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	 (HipCat)
To:	
Date: 97-01-31 18:13:28 EST

Bela Bacsi!

Here is a letter I sent to NY Times on the Misha Glenny Article.  Please
distribute how you see fit:  

______________________________________
To the Editor:

In "New Crisis in the Balkans," Misha Glenny illuminates some of the
seemingly unsurmountable obstacles faced in the region.  Like most
Western observers, however, he fails to discuss the situation in
Vojvodina, a previously autonomous (and formerly Hungarian) province
north of Serbia proper.  With its sizeable Hungarian population the
scale of the Balkan crisis widens considerably and is important for US
policy makers.  The Milosevic regime's attempt at consolidating it's
power and controlling the votes of the provinces making up the
collective Yugoslav presidency started here and eventually led to the
Yugoslav conflict.  Elected Hungarian (and opposition) government,
school and public officials were ousted and replaced with Milosevic
cronies.  Tens of thousands of ethnic Hungarians have fled or forced
from their lands, yet few were watching.  Millions of Hungarians now
live as minorities outside the present borders of Hungary after borders
were arbitrarily redrawn after WWI.  They are discriminated against and
face persecution. Though progress has been made with Romania, the Slovak
language law outlawing Hungarian, continued ethnic cleansing in
Yugoslavia, and popular unrest growing, the US must not get caught again
unprepared as was the case in Bosnia.  Half of all Western investment in
Eastern Europe is in Hungary and half of that is US investment. Though
some policy makers have shortsightedly claimed otherwise, we have
serious economic and geopolitical interests in the region.  Should
Hungary decide to intervene on behalf of its countrymen, the conflict
would take on truly international significance. Though American
newscasts continually fail to show the border of Vojvodina, look closely
and find a real "crisis in the Balkans." 

Bryan Dawson
Arlington, VA
_________________________________________________

-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (HipCat)
To:     
Date: 97-01-31 18:13:28 EST

Bela Bacsi!

Here is a letter I sent to NY Times on the Misha Glenny Article.  Please
distribute how you see fit:

______________________________________
To the Editor:

In "New Crisis in the Balkans," Misha Glenny illuminates some of the
seemingly unsurmountable obstacles faced in the region.  Like most
Western observers, however, he fails to discuss the situation in
Vojvodina, a previously autonomous (and formerly Hungarian) province
north of Serbia proper.  With its sizeable Hungarian population the
scale of the Balkan crisis widens considerably and is important for US
policy makers.  The Milosevic regime's attempt at consolidating it's
power and controlling the votes of the provinces making up the
collective Yugoslav presidency started here and eventually led to the
Yugoslav conflict.  Elected Hungarian (and opposition) government,
school and public officials were ousted and replaced with Milosevic
cronies.  Tens of thousands of ethnic Hungarians have fled or forced
from their lands, yet few were watching.  Millions of Hungarians now
live as minorities outside the present borders of Hungary after borders
were arbitrarily redrawn after WWI.  They are discriminated against and
face persecution. Though progress has been made with Romania, the Slovak
language law outlawing Hungarian, continued ethnic cleansing in
Yugoslavia, and popular unrest growing, the US must not get caught again
unprepared as was the case in Bosnia.  Half of all Western investment in
Eastern Europe is in Hungary and half of that is US investment. Though
some policy makers have shortsightedly claimed otherwise, we have
serious economic and geopolitical interests in the region.  Should
Hungary decide to intervene on behalf of its countrymen, the conflict
would take on truly international significance. Though American
newscasts continually fail to show the border of Vojvodina, look closely
and find a real "crisis in the Balkans."

Bryan Dawson
Arlington, VA
_________________________________________________

--
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

--
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

At 04:22 AM 1/31/97 -0500, Janos Zsargo wrote:

>What would that Hungarian 'kancellaria' have been for? For a 'shadow
>government' (arnyek kormany)? Wasn't it as redicoulous demand as the
>separate budget and army from the Hungarian side?

        Yes, but the Court gave up on that. However, the king's advisors
didn't give up on the question of the palatine's rights. The Hungarian law
(in the April Laws) stated that the palatine would have absolutely full
royal rights in the "absence of the king." Meaning, of course, "absence from
the territory of Hungary." And since this would have been practically all
the time because it is unlikely that the emperor/king would have moved out
of the Hofburg, it in essence meant that the king was no longer in reality a
king. In his absence, the palatine would have countersigned all the laws
passed by parliament. This was clearly unconstitutional in the sense that it
went counter to the stipulations of the Pragmatic Sanction. Thus, the
Court's demand that the law on the role of the palatine be changed to be
applicable only to Archduke Stephen was actually a compromise solution
which, the Hungarians, knowing full well that the law was not in line with
the Pragmatic Sanction, eventually adhered to.

        But there were other things which worried the Court and it would
have worried me a bit too if I had been one of the people around the king.
The Hungarians furiously began to organize the national guard and by July,
they had 10,000 people armed. At the same time they insisted on bringing
Hungarian soldiers serving in the common army back to Hungary and demanded
on withdrawing all non-Hungarian divisions of the imperial army from the
territory of Hungary. Although some historians, Gyorgy Spira, for example,
insist that the Hungarian government didn't touch the status of the common
army, this is really stretching it. It may not have touched it in the sense
of abolishing it but by appointing a minister of defense and arming
thousands of national guards, insisting on the withdrawal of the imperial
troops, the message was, in my opinion, fairly clear.

>As far as the last two demands [common finance minister and the status of
the army under the king] are concerned, they could be (and I am
>pretty sure they were) considered very dangereous. If the Hungarians
>had obeyed they would have given up every mean of defence and had to
>trust the word of the Court. Well, it was not exactly 'eletbiztositas'.

        Dangerous from whose point of view? I guess it is dangerous if
Hungary wanted to have a personal union only and even that is not too well
defined! But that pretty well would have put an end to even a semblance of
unity. As far as the Court was concerned the next step would be electing
Archduke Stephen or somebody else as king (as the matter of fact there were
talks about such a move on the streets of Pest). Without a common treasury
there could be no common army. And without a common army there couldn't be
common foreign policy. So, for all practical purposes, Hungary would have
been independent with a figurehead of a king sitting in Vienna which was
considered to be foreign soil! Thus, the king's absence from the country,
the palatine--and who knows who this palatine would be in twenty
years--would practically rule while the Hungarian parliament went ahead and
made foreign policy, financial policy, and had an army of its own. Surely,
this would have been a mockery of a common monarchy.

        But, surely, if you strove for total independence--as you obviously
would have if you had been around--then the Court's demands were outrageous.

        Eva Balogh

>From Szabadsag, the local Hungarian daily, about the meeting of the City
Council:

Bucur Ildiko (member of RMDSZ) suggested that the Council should reject the
prioposal of polling of the population of Kolozsvar about the city hosting
the Hungarian consulate. This is something that Mayor Funar is suggesting,
probably hoping that the majority of the population  will be against it.
Funar, whose party is in opposition at national level is opposed to the idea
of a Hungarian Consulate there.

When the proposal was put up for a vote, only 15 councilors voted for it,
out of the 31. And than the presiding Caius Comsa (member of PUNR, Funar's
party) announced that the resolution passed. The city lawyer was of the
opinion that the opinion of the presiding person prevails and that's it.

And a joke from the same paper:

Why are the prices of food escalating this fast? Because the IMF wants to
examine Romania on an empty stomach.

Gabor D. Farkas