Here is a tiny sample of his soaring prose:

>Well-deserved rebuke my ass.
>gay-baiting buttwipe
>run-of-the-mill far-right louse
>boring, blockheaded bigot.
>crypto-Slovak
>Sam Stowe

And he complained loudly when someone recently used just one objectionable
 word, "garbage" to describe some communists.

His sophomoric style is not amusing.  Nor is his puerile effort at being
funny.  It is futile to try to debate with someone who is incapable of
carrying on a discussion without invoking the style and language of whatever
intellectual backwater he calls home.

Ferenc

This week's edition of the New Republic contains an article by Brian Hecht
entitled "Go East" and is a rather hearty endorsement of NATO's expansion
eastward with Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary. You can find it at:

http://www.enews.com/magazines/tnr

Also, Andrei Kozyrev, the former Russian foreign minister, has a similar
article in either Time or Newsweek this week (I read both magazines at one
sitting, so I can never remember exactly where I read particular articles)
encouraging NATO expansion and saying that Russian complaints about the
alliance's expansion is nothing more than electioneering folderol. (Hey,
what a great Hungarian-English word!)

I'm wondering just how much enthusiasm there is in Hungary for NATO
membership. Most of the stuff I've read over the last year left me with
the impression that the Hungarians were ambivalent about NATO membership
at best and that the idea of an Austrian-style neutrality had a lot of
public backing. What do you folks think?
Sam Stowe

"Missionaries and cannibals
make perfect couples..."
-- Paul Theroux

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>Am I stressed out?  I don't think so.  What would stress me out?

Your attempts to copy my style, perhaps? The frustration of not being able
to get it right no matter how many times you try?


>Your
>constant drone about how "it's not passivity to suggest that careful,
>incremental, small-scale change might have a greater positive impact on
>people's lives while minimizing the disruptions that always attend
change"?
>I have two questions for you, Sam.  Who would be in charge of the
"careful,
>incremental, small-scale change"?  And what would be their interest in
>managing the change?  Curious minds want to know.

I think I can assure you with a great degree of confidence that it would
not be me. I am not in the least bit interested in undertaking such
tedious work and there is no polity in the world that is collectively
crazy enough to ask me to do it. My guess is that it would be carried out
by the same popularly-elected politicians and career bureaucrats who've
been doing it in capitalist democracies for years now. You'd have to
observe them carefully and listen to them to figure out what their real
interests are in managing such change. Since they're human beings, they
won't fit into your classificatory system of those with your socialist
ideals acting out of the purest, most selfless motives and everyone else
hopping in simply to enrich themselves or lord it over someone else. Why
don't you do it, Joe? I'm serious about this. You're idealistic, smart,
articulate and have a keen sense of humor. Plus you're honest. I may not
agree with you about a lot of topics, but I'd vote for you before I'd vote
for a lot of other people I know.
Sam Stowe

>
>Joe Szalai
>
>



"Missionaries and cannibals
make perfect couples..."
-- Paul Theroux

My wife and I were eating dinner tonight and watching the evening news
when Peter Jennings (Hungarian content: former husband of Kati Marton)
introduced a story about Madeleine Albright and her recent discovery that
her grandparents were Jewish. My wife asked a pretty pertinent question,
namely why didn't Mrs. Albright's parents tell her about her heritage? I
told her I'd ask you guys if you'd ever heard of any famous Hungarians in
recent years who have discovered that grandparents or parents were Jewish.

Also, I've run across a biography of Chana Szenes in my local university's
library. Szenes was reared in Budapest and went to live in a kibbutz in
Israel before the Second World War. She volunteered for some kind of
secret spying mission (I'm not sure for who) during the war and parachuted
into Hungary where she was captured, held, tortured and shot just a short
time before the war ended. Any of you folks ever heard of her?
Sam Stowe

"Missionaries and cannibals
make perfect couples..."
-- Paul Theroux

In article >, Andy Kozma
> writes:

>Subject:       Hungary.
>From:  Andy Kozma >
>Date:  Fri, 7 Feb 1997 16:49:35 -0500
>
>Yes I am lurking arround in this thread and the same on the new Szabad
>thread.
>I understand you are looking for more hunagarian associate stories.
>Well for the last few days the new Forum,now called Szabad has some
people
>bringing up again the question and hatred against Jews.
>Since I do not intend to get involvald with that garbich thread,I would
be
>interrested how do You feel about it.
>On the other hand they also write that this Hungary is anti
Hungarian.Well I
>do not care about that opinion,neither for the help some of them ask
against
>"Hungary".
>I would like to hear from you as a Jew who absolutly had enough with
those
>so called
>hungarians who do not have any other tema.
>Regards:Andy K.

Andy, I think you've always done a wonderful job doing what you do best --
simply telling people what you've seen with your own eyes. From what I've
read, anti-semitism in Hungary itself has declined dramatically in recent
years. It embarrasses me as an American that so many of the xenophobic and
anti-semitic posters on this group and in some of the Hungarian language
groups are American citizens. I think there will always be those who will
use any forum available to them to spread anti-semitism. The only thing
the rest of us can do is challenge them vigorously and not back down. And
we need brave, humble people like you who know first-hand how evil
anti-semitism is to speak out.
Sam Stowe

"Missionaries and cannibals
make perfect couples..."
-- Paul Theroux

Sam Stowe wrote:
<My wife and I were eating dinner tonight and watching the evening news
<when Peter Jennings (Hungarian content: former husband of Kati Marton)
<introduced a story about Madeleine Albright and her recent discovery that
<her grandparents were Jewish. My wife asked a pretty pertinent question,
<namely why didn't Mrs. Albright's parents tell her about her heritage? I
<told her I'd ask you guys if you'd ever heard of any famous Hungarians in
<recent years who have discovered that grandparents or parents were Jewish.

I think, quite often descendents of "lower" social strata ( no-aristocrat,
no-noble,...jewish,...) would hide and surpress their heritage when managing
to "ascend" in the society. I am surprised, she discovered this now...

>Also, I've run across a biography of Chana Szenes in my local university's
>library. Szenes was reared in Budapest and went to live in a kibbutz in
>Israel before the Second World War. She volunteered for some kind of
>secret spying mission (I'm not sure for who) during the war and parachuted
>into Hungary where she was captured, held, tortured and shot just a short
>time before the war ended. Any of you folks ever heard of her?

I can4t give you sources. I read about her. Her mission was, according
to what I read, to organize active armed jewish resistance against the
holocaust. Also, I think I read, that she was long considerd as a traitor
and it took a long time until she was - posthumus - rehabilitated in Israel.
According to this source, it was not spying. And the British Army was involved.
Whether, or not there was armed resistance - yes, there was - was quite an
issue between the victims an their people in the safety of the Americas,
Palestine ( mind you, "safety" ), etc...

But again...hazy memories...Should I find something, I will remember.


Miklos Hoffmann
>Sam Stowe

"Missionaries and cannibals
make perfect couples..."
-- Paul Theroux

Haliho, Listmembers!

I recently purchased the new Sixth Edition of the *National Geographic Atlas
of the World,* Washington, D.C., 1990, 1992, 1995, 1996. While casually
perusing the thumbnail sketches in the "Nations of the World" section, I
noticed the description of the state of Slovakia. I shall quote it verbatim
for the benefit of the Listmembers:

*************
This new country's split from the more affluent, industrialized Czech
Republic was prompted by Slovak nationalism and grievances over rapid
economic reforms intstituted by the former government in Prague - reforms
that left many Slovaks without jobs. Unlike their Czech neighbors, who
industrialized under the Austrian Habsburgs, the Slovaks were held back
economically by the Hungarians, who ruled them for a millennium. In 1918
they united with the Czechs to create Czechoslovakia. A puppet state of Nazi
Germany during World War II, Slovakia rejoined the Czech region at war's
end. Czechosolovakia was soon subjected to decades of a repressive communist
regime, which collapsed in 1989.

Slovakia's high rate of unemployment - four times that of the czech Republic
- is due in part to meager foreign investment and to the decline of its
controversial arms industry. Mountains cover much of the nation's central
and northern sections; the agricultural southern lowlands yield a variety of
grain crops, as well as sugar beets.

Slovak Republic  area: 49006 sq km (18921 sq mi.). Population: 5,370,000.
Capital: Bratislava, pop. 446,700.  Religion: Roman Catholic. Language:
Slovak, Hungarian. Literacy: 99%. Life expectancy: 71 years. Economy:
Industry, textiles, machinery, munitions. Export crops: forest products.
Food crops: grains, potatoes, sugar beets, livestock. PCI: $1900.

*************

Are those fair characterizations - namely, that the Hungarians ruled the
Slovaks for a milennium (there never was an established Slovak state, was
there?) - and that the Slovaks were held back economically by the
Hungarians? It seems to me that this is another case of reading the past
based on the perceived morality of the present. Any thoughts on this would
be appreciated.

Tisztlettel,

Johanne/Janka

Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

In a message dated 97-02-07 22:37:53 EST, you write:

> Here is a tiny sample of his soaring prose:
[.....]

NFerence,

Even though you are quoting Sam out of context it still conveys the
message in full..............

Please stop being such a bore.

Marina

>  >Well-deserved rebuke my ass.
>  >gay-baiting buttwipe
>  >run-of-the-mill far-right louse
>  >boring, blockheaded bigot.
>  >crypto-Slovak
>  >Sam Stowe
>
>  And he complained loudly when someone recently used just one objectionable
>   word, "garbage" to describe some communists.
>
>  His sophomoric style is not amusing.  Nor is his puerile effort at being
>  funny.  It is futile to try to debate with someone who is incapable of
>  carrying on a discussion without invoking the style and language of
whatever
>  intellectual backwater he calls home.
>
>  Ferenc

Hello AndyK,

Nice to hear/read from you again.....I stopped reading the Forum/Szabad
because
it would enrage me to no end. A while back, in "another life", someone close
to me used to quote: "Harag hatalom nelkul nem er semmit" = Anger/hate
without
power is inaffective. While this maybe true, we must excersize our freedom of
speach to refute them *every step of the way*. I am getting older and older
but I promiss you I will go down fighting! As I gained more life experiences
I also
gained a better understanding of life and learned that I have to temper my
idealistic
view of human nature. What a blow it was!

Currently I am reading a book from Nat Hentoff titled: "Free Speech for Me
----
But Not for Thee" originally published in 1992 by HarperCollins. It is very,
very
interesting reading!

My only hope is that people will learn to be more tolerant of each other by
learning
of each others history/culture."There ought to be a law............."  ha,
ha.

Sincerely,
Marina


In a message dated 97-02-07 15:55:06 EST, you write:

> Yes I am lurking arround in this thread and the same on the new Szabad
thread.
>  I understand you are looking for more hunagarian associate stories.
>  Well for the last few days the new Forum,now called Szabad has some people
>  bringing up again the question and hatred against Jews.
>  Since I do not intend to get involvald with that garbich thread,I would be
>  interrested how do You feel about it.
>  On the other hand they also write that this Hungary is anti Hungarian.Well
I
>  do not care about that opinion,neither for the help some of them ask
against
>  "Hungary".
>  I would like to hear from you as a Jew who absolutly had enough with those
>  so called
>  hungarians who do not have any other tema.
>  Regards:Andy K.
>

David Hinds ) wrote:
: I believe you mean a "second generation American." If your parents came from
: another country and became naturalized citizens they were the first
generation
: Americans. You are the second generation (but first to be natural born). I
: don't think you can refer to yourself as a "hungarian." You are a
: Hungarian-American or an American of Hungarian ancestry.

hey dave!

she IS a first generation hungarian! her parents ARE Hungarian emmigrant...
their children are derived, thus: "first generation" in the true meaning of
the words being used.

i don't mean to be pedantic here, but if i'm wrong someone should explain
it to me...

ya, we're all proud to be what we are...

janos

At 08:38 AM 2/8/97 -0500, Marina wrote:

>.I stopped reading the Forum/Szabad
>because
>it would enrage me to no end. A while back, in "another life", someone close
>to me used to quote: "Harag hatalom nelkul nem er semmit" = Anger/hate
>without
>power is inaffective. While this maybe true, we must excersize our freedom of
>speach to refute them *every step of the way*. I am getting older and older
>but I promiss you I will go down fighting! As I gained more life experiences

There is plenty of activity on this list. Sometimes I really would like to
participate but  I haven't had enough time to do it here and in the renamed
Forum.

I respect the opinion of some of those who spoke out against cross-posting,
therefore I am not going to describe what goes on there. I urge all of you
who speak Hungarian to participate in the discussion.

This is not a cry for help, the usual suspects are surprised by all the
opposing views.

Gabor D. Farkas

P.S. Although I am not writing too much, I am still reading Hungary and
enjoy it.

Dear List Members,

        Before we begin a discussion on Madelein Albright's heritage and
before I try to answer Sam's question let me tell you that until yesterday I
was delighted with the appointment of Madeleine Albright. After all, she was
born in Czechoslovakia, her father's book on the communist take-over in
Prague was practically compulsory reading at the time I was taking
East-European politics, she knows several languages, she is interested in
our region, she went to Columbia where the Soviet and East European studies
program was very, very good. Shall I say more? But then, I read an article
in yesterday's New York Times and my high opinion of Madelein Albright
suddenly plummeted. She maybe smart, she may turn out to be a good secretary
of state, but I don't think that she is a good person. If you are interested
in the article, please let me know and I will send it out to those
interested. (I dowloaded it from yesterday's internet edition of the paper.)

        Eva Balogh

At 08:32 08-02-1997 -0400, you wrote:
>Haliho, Listmembers!
>
>I recently purchased the new Sixth Edition of the *National Geographic=
 Atlas
>of the World,* Washington, D.C., 1990, 1992, 1995, 1996. While casually
>perusing the thumbnail sketches in the "Nations of the World" section, I
>noticed the description of the state of Slovakia. I shall quote it verbatim
>for the benefit of the Listmembers:
>
>*************
>This new country's split from the more affluent, industrialized Czech
>Republic was prompted by Slovak nationalism and grievances over rapid
>economic reforms intstituted by the former government in Prague - reforms
>that left many Slovaks without jobs. Unlike their Czech neighbors, who
>industrialized under the Austrian Habsburgs, the Slovaks were held back
>economically by the Hungarians, who ruled them for a millennium. In 1918
>they united with the Czechs to create Czechoslovakia. A puppet state of=
 Nazi
>Germany during World War II, Slovakia rejoined the Czech region at war's
>end. Czechosolovakia was soon subjected to decades of a repressive=
 communist
>regime, which collapsed in 1989.
>
>Slovakia's high rate of unemployment - four times that of the czech=
 Republic
>- is due in part to meager foreign investment and to the decline of its
>controversial arms industry. Mountains cover much of the nation's central
>and northern sections; the agricultural southern lowlands yield a variety=
 of
>grain crops, as well as sugar beets.
>
>Slovak Republic  area: 49006 sq km (18921 sq mi.). Population: 5,370,000.
>Capital: Bratislava, pop. 446,700.  Religion: Roman Catholic. Language:
>Slovak, Hungarian. Literacy: 99%. Life expectancy: 71 years. Economy:
>Industry, textiles, machinery, munitions. Export crops: forest products.
>Food crops: grains, potatoes, sugar beets, livestock. PCI: $1900.
>
>*************
>
>Are those fair characterizations - namely, that the Hungarians ruled the
>Slovaks for a milennium (there never was an established Slovak state, was
>there?) - and that the Slovaks were held back economically by the
>Hungarians? It seems to me that this is another case of reading the past
>based on the perceived morality of the present. Any thoughts on this would
>be appreciated.
>
>Tisztlettel,
>
>Johanne/Janka
>
>Johanne L. Tournier
>e-mail - 

My grandmother was born in Mezobereny, Bekes megye in 1890. She had mixed
Slovak and Hungarian ancestry: LISKA (fox in Slovak) and BALLA. So perhaps I
am in a unique position to feel a relationship to both the Slovaks and the
Hungarians. I knew nothing of my heritage when growing up, so the things I
say are not based on any prejudice learned from parents when I was a child.

The statements in the National Geographic are accurate and are commonly
voiced by Slovaks. Things sited by Slovaks are the forced Magyarization and
outlawing of their native language. Inability to rise in status except by
becoming more Magyar.

All this is part and parcel of the ethnic unrest of the Slovaks now living
in Hungary (a major percentage live still in Bekes megye). In recent times
things have improved and they allow Slovak language schools there. I have a
cousin in the Slovak school in Szarvas, Bekes m.

On the reverse side of the coin is the complaints of Magyars in modern SK
and their desire to speak their own native language. Of course they should
be able to, so if you agree to that, why wouldn't Slovaks be able to in
times past?

About a Slovak state, before Magyars conquered the Carpathian basin around
the last millinium, Slovaks were united in what people call the "Great
Moravian Empire" under Sv=E4topluk, their leader. They fairly quickly were
conquered and remained as peons for the next 1000 years.

It's a very old problem and there are far more specifics to it and
complaints from both sides than I've attempted to state here. Anyone
tackling this subject is very likely to be flamed no matter what they say.
There are extremists on both sides. Just be glad if you're an American and
are considered "equal" under the law. People in times past had no such=
 luxury.

As a side note, did you know that the often revered "Magyar" Kossuth Lajos,
is of Slovak ancestry?

Tisztettel,

Doug Holmes


Director of the Hungarian/American Friendship Society. A group specializing
in Hungarian and Slovak genealogy. Visit our home page at:
www.dholmes.com/hafs.html

Hannah (Aniko) Szenes  (1921-1944)  tried to save the Jews of Hungary.

The Jewish Agency offices in Jerusalem and Istanbul considered the
possibility of sending a small mission to Hungary as early as January 1944.
The mission, it was  envisioned, would provide advice about and leadership
for the organization of some kind of resistance and self-help in the event
of a German occupation. The British reluctantly consented to the sending of
a handful of Hungarian-speaking Palestinian Jews to Hungary. Three officers
were selected and trained by the British for organizational and
intelligence operations in Hungary. They were volunteered who had emigrated
to Palestine in the late 1930s. One of them was the 23 years old Hannah
Szenes, formerly of Budapest. Her father, Bela, was a relatively well-known
author and playright but Hanna (Aniko) herself was also a poet and writer,
a romantic and sensitive soul with great interest in Hungarian literature.

After training in Egypt she was taken to Bari, Italy. From there she was
flown over Yugoslavia and parachuted over partisan-held territory on March
13, 1944. She spent three months among Tito's partisans. Szenes crossed the
border into Hungary on June 9. She was promptly arrested. Szenes was
imprisoned in Budapest, where the police tried to compel her to cooperate
with them by arresting her widowed mother Katherine (Kat=F3) Szenes. For
three months they were held in separate cells in the same prison. Following
the Szalasi coup Hannah was tried by a Nyilas court and executed on
November 7.

Braham, Randolph L. The Hungarian Labor Service System, 1939-1945.  Boulder
Colo.: East European Quarterly; New York, distributed by Columbia
University Press, 1977. pp.993-5

Senes, Hanna. Her Life and Diary. London: Vallentine, 1971.

Yesterday (Febr. 7, 1997) an obituary column appeared in the Globe and Mail
about Paul Rekai (1912-1996), a doctor who with his surgeon brother John
founded a Central Hospital in Toronto. (333 Sherbourne Ave). I am wondering
how many Hungarians outside Toronto area know about this remarkable family.

Until 1991 there was a monthly magazine, the Hungarian Heritage Review,
which regularly reported on issues related to the Hungarian diaspora. In
this magazine the Rekais were featured twice, Nov.'87 and June '88. Since
the demise of this publication I don't know any media, paper or electronic,
which follows the Hungarian "scene" in North America. Only in this list I
see occasionally some interest in this subject, so I will briefly summarize
what I know about the Rekais.

They left Hungary in 1948, arrived in Canada in 1950. In 1957 founded a
modest 32 bed private hospital which specialized in multilingual health care
for the large immigrant population of Toronto.  In 1969 this small hospital
was expanded into a modern 175 bed hospital. In 1987 adjacent to the
Central hospital opened a multilingual nursing home which is called Drs
Paul and John Rekai Centre.

John Rekai died in 1978. His wife Kati is famous for her children's books.
>From the "Adventures of Mickey, Taggy Puppo and Cica, and how they discover
 .." many Canadian kids learned about Budapest and Hungary. The books were
translated into many languages. Kati Rekai is now 76 years old, but still
very actively helping the Hungarian community with her found raising
activities and weekly reports on cultural events in the Hungarian language
radio program in Toronto.

Barna Bozoki

At 01:35 AM 2/8/97 GMT, you wrote:
>My wife and I were eating dinner tonight and watching the evening news
>when Peter Jennings (Hungarian content: former husband of Kati Marton)
>introduced a story about Madeleine Albright and her recent discovery that
>her grandparents were Jewish. My wife asked a pretty pertinent question,
>namely why didn't Mrs. Albright's parents tell her about her heritage? I
>told her I'd ask you guys if you'd ever heard of any famous Hungarians in
>recent years who have discovered that grandparents or parents were Jewish.
>

The New York Times, reporting on this story mentioned that Kati Marton had a
similar story to tell.

Charlie Vamossy

I truly hate to stick my head into the middle of the barrage of hateful
words flying about the list (oops, there goes another...), but is there any
way Sam and Ferenc could reset their computers' system date back to a day or
so before this war broke out?

I, for one, miss their interesting contributions, thought provoking
arguments.  The current excalation of insults is going nowhere...

best regards,

Charlie Vamossy

At 08:32 AM 2/8/97 -0400, Johanna wrote, quoting the new Sixth Edition of
the *National Geographic Atlas:

        Let me go line by line:

>Unlike their Czech neighbors, who
>industrialized under the Austrian Habsburgs, the Slovaks were held back
>economically by the Hungarians, who ruled them for a millennium.

        This is not so. In fact, after the Compromise the central government
made serious efforts at industrializing the Felvide'k (Upper Hungary), the
name of the northern areas of Greater Hungary. Tax breaks were given to
entrepreneurs who would set up industrial complexes in these areas. In fact,
Slovak industry--much weaker still than in the Czech parts of the new
Czechoslovakia--suffered greatly after the establishment of the new
republic. They couldn't compete with the much more advanced Czech industry.

        Even if the economic exploitation is untrue, the Slovaks had serious
grievances when it came to higher education in their own mother tongue. At
the time of the Compromise there were several Slovak-language gymnasiums but
one after the other was closed because the central authorities found some
"seditious acts" connected to them. In any case, eventually there was not
even one Slovak-language high school for Slovaks. Thus, if Slovak parents
wanted to give an education to their children they had to attend
Hungarian-language schools. By the time they finished gymnasium, especially
if they attended university, they became completely Magyarized. Thus the
Slovaks rapidly assimilated especially because the Felvide'k was a poor
region with few job opportunities and about 300,000 Slovaks moved to the
capital. Needless to say that their children living in Budapest felt
completely Hungarian. Also, larger towns in the Felvide'k--even some with
only 20-30,000 people--were mostly Hungarian-speaking by the turn of the
century.

>In 1918
>they united with the Czechs to create Czechoslovakia.

        Yes, yes, they united but no one really asked them whether they
wanted to be united or not. Slovak emigrants living in the United States
"voted" for joining the Czechs in a new Czechoslovak state. Originally the
Slovaks thought that it would be a federated republic where Slovakia would
have home-rule, the kind the Hungarians had in the Austro-Hungarian
Monarchy. But the Czechs, like so many other people in this area, could
think only in terms of a centralized state. The Slovak political leader, a
Catholic priest called Hlinka, immediately protested but he was arrested by
the French police in Paris at the request of Edvard Benes. Thus, the Slovaks
were never really truly satisfied with their lot within Czechoslovakia.

>A puppet state of Nazi
>Germany during World War II, Slovakia rejoined the Czech region at war's
>end.

        Given Slovak dissatisfaction it is not surprising that Slovakia
gladly accepted independent status after the collapse of Czechoslovakia. The
Slovak government was pretty subservient to the Germans. However, at the end
there was an uprising against the Germans and the Tiso government.

        Then Johanna adds:

>Are those fair characterizations - namely, that the Hungarians ruled the
>Slovaks for a milennium (there never was an established Slovak state, was
>there?)

        This part is true. The "Great Moravian Empire" Doug mentioned wasn't
as grant as the name would indicate. Moreover, we know darn little about it.
Perhaps Liviu and Jeliko could come up with something in that department.
Although the Slovak nationalists were hard at creating national heroes
ruling in those days, they were shadowy figures. (It is interesting to look
at the stamps issued by the puppet Tiso government during the war! I
recommend it highly!)

        And by the way, the main problem between the Czechs and the Slovaks
was that they had entirely different historical experiences and as the
result entirely different outlooks. They speak very closely related
languages but they think and act very differently. The Czechs are mostly
free-thinkers, while the Slovaks are fairly devoted Catholics, for example.
Somewhat similar situation to the differences between Serbs and Croats:
different history, different religion, different ways of thinking.

        Eva Balogh

Dear fellow-listmembers,

The extract from the National Geographic publication that Johanne published,
and the response to it (pardon me but I didn't note the contributer's name)
show the pitfalls that everyone tends to fall into in generalizing, the
more so when the generalizations have to be made in a few words.  I know
the National Geographic tries to be as accurate as possible in what it
publishes, having been asked to review text for some other article once
upon a time.

The extract seems clearly to imply that the Hungarian government (one needs
in the first case to distinguish between the government and "the Hungarians")
purposely tried to prevent the Slovak-inhabited northern regions from
industrializing.  Yet according to what I have read, what industry there
was in old Hungary included not only the immediate vicinity of Budapest,
but also significant development, at least in extractive industries, exactly
in the counties that became Slovakia after 1918.  Industrialization, to the
extent it _did_ occur, seems to have acted as a vehicle for assimilation
(voluntary), at least according to the recent work of Laszlo Szarka.

In any case, it's a simplification to say that the Czech lands were more
industrialized compared to Slovakia because of the Hungarians.  All of
Hungary, compared to Cisleithania, was less-industrialized, and I think it
_is_ a distortion to present Slovakia's relative underdevelopment compared
to the Czech lands after 1918 as a direct result of a conscious effort by
the Magyars to prevent the Slovaks from industrializing.  To that extent,
I think National Geographic slipped up.

Some of the other issues raised by the response to Johanne's quote from
the atlas (again, I'm sorry not to have written the name down) are still
quite controversial among historians.  Here one simply has to distinguish
between the image of the past cultivated as part of the national identity
(in technospeak a "mythomoteur" for the nation) and, well, I can't think
of a better way to say it: "proper" history--history done with attention
to the rules of the craft, balanced, "objective"...

I don't think it makes any more sense to assert that "Great Moravia"
(scholars can't even agree about _where_ it was) was a "Slovak" state--
in the sense that we mean today when we talk about "nation-states"--than
it does to say that Charlemagne's empire was a "German" state in the same
meaning, or--horribile dictu!--that Arpad's Hungary was a "Magyar" state...

On another issue:  I too don't think too much of crossposting.  Other lists
have their members, participants, quarrels, and issues; we have ours.
Maybe if this list is the subject of discussion on other lists, we can
assume some interest in those discussions, but what use would it be to
"invade" other lists, and what could they possibly do here?
Perhaps it's appropriate here to remember a quote somebody once posted
on this list, from a seventeenth-century Hungarian Counter-Reformation
polemicist:

"Ha szarral harcolsz, ha megbirod is, ha megbir is, szaros leszesz."

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT

Background:
   Hungarian organizations and churches from New York City and 
surroundings have requested vice president Al Gore to receive a 
delegation of Hungarian-Americans which wishes to present him the 
aspects of the lawsuit at the International Court in the Hague and 
the Compromise Plan. The Compromise Plan ensures the survival of the 
famous Danube wetlands of Szigetkoz.

What to do:
  Please ask vice president Al Gore to receive the Hungarian-American 
delegation. Feel free to use the attached NEW form letter. Al Gore 
will only take notice if he receives thousands of letters. 
  Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!! SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!!

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
(e-mail: )

RE: Please receive delegation of Hungarian-Americans

Dear Mr. Vice President,
  
  When Slovakia illegally diverted the Danube in 1993 and thereby 
endangered the Danube wetlands (mainly located in Hungary), you wrote 
to professor B. Liptak about your concern for  this unique ecosystem. 
The divertion of the Danube by Slovakia caused a dispute with its 
neighbour Hungary. The two countries determined to let the 
International Court in the Hague decide in the case. 

  It seems to be time for you to speak up again for the rescue of the 
Danube wetlands, as humankind is approaching an important precedent: 
The first international environmental lawsuit is coming up in a few 
weeks at the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

   Still, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just one
river or just one wetland ecosystem. This lawsuit will set a precedent
for the whole planet and will decide on a much more basic question:
"Do national governments have the right to do as they please with the
ecosystem of this planet, or does humankind as a whole  have the right
to protect her natural treasures?"

   In 1995, nine international environmental NGOs have submitted a
"Memorial" to the Court which its president, the Honorable Mohammed
Bedjaoui, has accepted. Also submitted to the ICJ was a Compromise
Plan, which would guarantee the restoration of this ancient wetland
region together with fulfilling the water supply, energy and shipping
needs of the region. 

   Dear Mr. Vice President, a delegation of Hungarian-Americans wish to 
present you the most important aspects of the lawsuit and the Compromise 
Plan. Please receive this delegation and attend to its arguments. 
Please help to save the Danube River.

Respectfully yours,

Your name, title, address

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
   URGENT

Background:
   Hungarian organizations and churches from New York City and
surroundings have requested vice president Al Gore to receive a
delegation of Hungarian-Americans which wishes to present him the
aspects of the lawsuit at the International Court in the Hague and
the Compromise Plan. The Compromise Plan ensures the survival of the
famous Danube wetlands of Szigetkoz.

What to do:
  Please ask vice president Al Gore to receive the Hungarian-American
delegation. Feel free to use the attached NEW form letter. Al Gore
will only take notice if he receives thousands of letters.
  Therefore please send at least one letter every day. Furthermore
PLEASE MAKE A CHAIN LETTER OF THIS CALL FOR ACTION. Send it to
everybody on your personal mailing list and ask them to forward it to
their friends. PLEASE ACT!! SEND SEVERAL LETTERS A DAY!!!

e-mail address of Al Gore:


*************************************************************

The Honorable Al Gore
Vice President of the United States
(e-mail: )

RE: Please receive delegation of Hungarian-Americans

Dear Mr. Vice President,

  When Slovakia illegally diverted the Danube in 1993 and thereby
endangered the Danube wetlands (mainly located in Hungary), you wrote
to professor B. Liptak about your concern for  this unique ecosystem.
The divertion of the Danube by Slovakia caused a dispute with its
neighbour Hungary. The two countries determined to let the
International Court in the Hague decide in the case.

  It seems to be time for you to speak up again for the rescue of the
Danube wetlands, as humankind is approaching an important precedent:
The first international environmental lawsuit is coming up in a few
weeks at the International Court of Justice in The Hague.

   Still, the implications of this case go beyond the future of just one
river or just one wetland ecosystem. This lawsuit will set a precedent
for the whole planet and will decide on a much more basic question:
"Do national governments have the right to do as they please with the
ecosystem of this planet, or does humankind as a whole  have the right
to protect her natural treasures?"

   In 1995, nine international environmental NGOs have submitted a
"Memorial" to the Court which its president, the Honorable Mohammed
Bedjaoui, has accepted. Also submitted to the ICJ was a Compromise
Plan, which would guarantee the restoration of this ancient wetland
region together with fulfilling the water supply, energy and shipping
needs of the region.

   Dear Mr. Vice President, a delegation of Hungarian-Americans wish to
present you the most important aspects of the lawsuit and the Compromise
Plan. Please receive this delegation and attend to its arguments.
Please help to save the Danube River.

Respectfully yours,

Your name, title, address

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to 
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the 
prime task of the Hungarian Lobby. 

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective 
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send 
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your 
acquaintances who care about human rights. 
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is 
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American 
citizens.
  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
    

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave
Washington, D.C.
(e-mail: )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President,

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

We must lead as we pass on the bridge to the 21st century, just as we 
led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the 
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from 
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's 
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice. 
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The 
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President: In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently 
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the 
future, is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be 
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous 
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would 
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a 
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate 
the need for our G.I.s to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million community of Hungarian-Americans, I
ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all indigenous national
minorities of Central Europe an integral part of your foreign policy.

Respectfully yours

Your name, address and title. If this letter is signed by many, please
use the attached form to list the names and addresses.

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave
Washington, D.C.
(e-mail: )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President,

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

USA must lead as we pass on the bridge to the 21st century, just as 
you led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President: In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently 
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the
future, is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our G.I.s to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part
of your foreign policy. 

Respectfully yours

Your name, address and title. If this letter is signed by many, please
use the attached form to list the names and addresses.

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the
prime task of the Hungarian Lobby.

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your
acquaintances who care about human rights.
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American
citizens.
  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
   

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave
Washington, D.C.
(e-mail: )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President,

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

We must lead as we pass on the bridge to the 21st century, just as we
led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President: In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the
future, is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our G.I.s to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million community of Hungarian-Americans, I
ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all indigenous national
minorities of Central Europe an integral part of your foreign policy.

Respectfully yours

Your name, address and title. If this letter is signed by many, please
use the attached form to list the names and addresses.

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Ave
Washington, D.C.
(e-mail: )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President,

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

USA must lead as we pass on the bridge to the 21st century, just as
you led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.

Mr. President: In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently
eliminate the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the
future, is to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be
done by uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous
minority groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would
make the defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a
cornerstone of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate
the need for our G.I.s to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part
of your foreign policy.

Respectfully yours

Your name, address and title. If this letter is signed by many, please
use the attached form to list the names and addresses.

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________

At 01:35 AM 2/8/97 GMT, Sam wrote:

>I'm wondering just how much enthusiasm there is in Hungary for NATO
>membership. Most of the stuff I've read over the last year left me with
>the impression that the Hungarians were ambivalent about NATO membership
>at best and that the idea of an Austrian-style neutrality had a lot of
>public backing. What do you folks think?

        I would say that by and large you are right, Sam. On the FORUM we
had a rather protracted discussion on NATO and I must say that the pro-NATO
people were in minority, my humble self included. As it turned out the
vice-president of the unreformed communist party in Hungary (Munkaspart)
joined the FORUM about a month ago and the Munkaspart is the strongest
opponent of NATO. (Mind you, the party secretary, a certain Gyula Thurmer,
also supports Milosevic and gave hearty endorsement--a bit prematurely--to
the leaders of the communist coup attempt in Russia!!)  The Munkaspart also
has a website where you can vote on the NATO issue. According to the latest
results the pro-NATO people are leading by a few hundred votes. Our vice
president made quite a headway on the list. But, of course, the ideological
makeup of the active participants of that list is not representative of the
population as a whole. According to the latest opinion polls, a fair number
of people are still undecided and the rest is about 50-50.

        The ideological underpinnings of this question go back to the
populist (narodnik) movement of the 1930s. These writers and "village
researchers" were greatly influenced by a certain Wilhelm Ro:pke who wrote a
book called The Third Road. Ro:pke's book was translated into Hungarian and
made quite an impact. Apparently, to really understand what Ro:pke is
talking about is not that easy but he certainly was very anti-capitalist.
His ideas in a somewhat vulgarized form can be translated as seeking a
"third road" between capitalism and socialism/communism. The Hungarian
populists loved this idea and unfortunately they made quite an impact on the
national psyche. Today there are quite a few people who somehow think that
Hungary should avoid the pitfalls of western capitalism. As I said to one of
the proponents of this crazy idea on the FORUM: "Hungary has never really
had a full-fledged, western-type capitalism and you are already thinking
about how to improve on it. Why don't you give a chance for a well regulated
market economy first?" Those people who are committed to the "nepi-nemzeti"
(that is right of center) politics are really the followers of the populists
of the 1930s. Add to these people the left-wingers (I would consider them to
be 15-20% of the population) and then you have close to fifty percent of the
electorate who are against NATO because their "third-road ideas" are also
influencing their thinking about NATO.

        I have a real aversion to the populist ideology in the first place
and I find any kind of anti-NATO propaganda dangerous for Hungary. Someone
whose field is Hungarian foreign policy between the two world wars and
general European diplomatic history during the same period, I am horrified
at the thought that Eastern Europe could become no man's land again. As I
tried to explain Russia is in bad shape now but sooner or later she will
recover. And given the internal political scene there we have no idea what
kind of regime will emerge in, let's say, five years in Russia.

        By the way, some people who participated in the discussion couldn't
understand how it was possible that practically all the 1956-ers are for
NATO today when they championed for neutrality in 1956. Again, times change,
people change. Then the best Hungary could achieve was neutrality a la
Austria. Also, the influence of populists was as strong then as it is now,
if not stronger. Since then the situation has changed and my own thinking
has changed on the subject. Today I would find it a tragedy if the majority
of the Hungarian people, misled and uninformed, would vote against NATO.

        Eva Balogh

At 09:49 AM 2/8/97 -0500,  Gabor Farkas wrote:

>>.I stopped reading the Forum/Szabad
>>because
>>it would enrage me to no end.

I urge all of you
>who speak Hungarian to participate in the discussion.
>
>This is not a cry for help, the usual suspects are surprised by all the
>opposing views.

        I feel the same way as Gabor does. Some of the people who express
anti-Semitic or anti-American feelings are extremely ignorant and I think
that it is our duty to tell them when they are wrong. There are some people
who do express their outrage--not just Gabor and myself but also people from
Hungary--but it wouldn't hurt to add a few more voices.

        Eva Balogh

How in the world do I keep getting messages from this list and the very few
that I respond to never come back to me - as if I never posted them?

Obviously my last post in reply to the Nat.Geo. article got through but I
would never have known without =C9va's comment containing my name.

My luck is that this worthless message will be the only one that I see
getting through! <g>

Doug Holmes

Hungarian/American Friendship Society
Home page: www.dholmes.com/hafs.html

At 01:20 PM 2/8/97 -0500, Barna Bozoki wrote:

<snip>
>Kati Rekai is now 76 years old, but still
>very actively helping the Hungarian community with her found raising
>activities and weekly reports on cultural events in the Hungarian language
>radio program in Toronto.

Barna,

I wasn't aware that there was a Hungarian language radio programme in
Toronto.  Other readers of this list may not know either.  Could you please
give us the station name, and time, that it's on?

Joe Szalai

At 08:53 AM 2/8/97 -0800, Doug wrote:
>How in the world do I keep getting messages from this list and the very few
>that I respond to never come back to me - as if I never posted them?

        I forgot how but you can set HUNGARY in such a way that you can get
copies of your own posts. Hugh is around--as it is clear from his excellent
response to the Slovak-Hungarian question posed by Johanne--and I am sure he
will give you a hand.

        Eva Balogh

On Sat, 8 Feb 1997, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> I wasn't aware that there was a Hungarian language radio programme in
> Toronto.  Other readers of this list may not know either.  Could you please
> give us the station name, and time, that it's on?
>
AM530 CIAO, Sundays 9-10 AM. Tel (416 635-6843)