> Felado : 
> Temakor: Re: Tsunami ( 46 sor )
> Idopont: Tue Dec 20 20:28:33 EST 1994 HUNGARY #171
>
> But there are still people who 'look' like Magyars, and thus have a
> strong Magyar identity, just as Slavs look different than Italians,
> creating strong identities for those groups.
I doubt it. Please post GIFs of people who you think look like Magyars
or explain in absolute terms what this means. As we know, the scientific
study of skull-size is no longer as respectable as it once was, and I
challenge you to come up with a definition.

> There is a matter of person identity through family history, and roots,
> which goes hand-in-hand with whether someone 'looks' Polish, or French, or
> Greek.
Is there? Peto3fi or Liszt took great pride in being Hungarian, yet the
former is known to be of mixed Slavic blood and the latter didn't speak
the language.

> That all peoples are of mixed ethnic ancestry, with
> some small influences from other groups, is not a convincing
> argument for losing the ethnic identity that still remains.
Now what is it exactly that remains? Who are these people whose "person
identity" is swelled by all this wonderful unmixed blood?  Where do they
live?

> you condemn people who are proud of the achievement of their
> ancestors, and cast aside that identification as worthless?  Is
> Henry Ford 3rd not to be proud of his grandfather, a pride he
> has for no other reason than his biological relationship with
> that ancestor?  Henry Ford 3rd should not act superior to the
> rest of us because of that relationship, but it is still a
> source of pride.
And why should he be proud of what grandpa did? A grandfather taking pride
in the accomplishments of his grandchildren is something I can understand:
he can at least say that he sired and sustained the children without whom
the grandchildren wouldn't even exist. But what role grandchildren have in
the past accomplishments of grandparents is a mystery to me. By your logic
one could be proud of the Sun shining -- it is also not something you
responsible for but surely without it you wouldn't exist.

> evacuation, few nations today would be spared.  Why not preserve what
> ethnic identity we have left, as we preserve ruins in museaums to
> help identify who we are, rather than discarding it, like some old
> scratched up Ming vase or worn out graffiti on the ceiling of the
> Sistine chapel, certainly not worth saving since it is not perfect
> any more.
It is of course pure illusion that there was such a thing as a highly
perfect ethnic division ever -- tribes that do not practice exogamy
tend to acquire a host of degenerative diseases and disappear from the
scene. Hungary always was home to a pretty mixed crowd, and if you think
you can trace your genes to a pure ethnic setup you must be laboring
under some pretty weird illusions.

Andras Kornai

>It was nice to see people recollections of Christmas in Hungary - this is
>how an understanding of our culture is passed down, from you old folks
>to us young turks, uh, Magyars.
>
>Paul
>

   I take it you wanted to write "from you 'mature' folks", Paul.
Who is "old" around here :-))? Hm!

   Good cheers,

                  Amos

 wrote:
: =Of special interest would be information like the Hungarian name for Santa
: =Claus, whether he is the same kind of fellow we know (round and happy),
mikula's... dec 6th... bad=ashes good=sweets that's all (shine your shoes!)

: =are there special customs to celebrate the day (or night, or
: =week) before Christmas, as well as Christmas Day; are there any special
: =costumes or apparel that is traditional to wear in Hungary at Christmas
: =time; are there are any special religious traditions or celebrations in
: =connection with celebrating the birth of Christ; is there any type of food
: =or drink that Hungarians make or use to celebrate Christmas, and what are
: =they (any recipes that we could try would also be appreciated); and are
wine soup: mix egg and hot sauterne... also new years with ma'kos te'szta

: =there any special songs or music that Hungarians associate with Christmas?
pa'sztorok and menybo"l az angyal

// cut nostalgia //

szalon cukor and REAL candles on tree!

tree UP on dec 24th... DOWN jan 7th (rite!)

gift are brought by kis angyal who schleps for jezuska!

: Szekler (Sze'kely) Christmas plai is well known.
dont know! soundz interesting... tell me more about Szekler please!

later
a'ldjon meg a jo' isten! pla'ne kara'csonykor!
emil

 wrote:
: I do know that the best defense is offense and therefore I am not surprised
: that Mr. Pellionisz resorts to it. However, I don't think that it will work.

rite on Ms Eva! why not take this talk to alt.angst or alt.bitterness... same
for you Mr. Pee... let's get real here! Horty wha?
later
emil

Eva Durant ) wrote:
: Sorry, I don't know Charles' address, but this is meant for him.
: Eva Durant

excellent post Eva...!
hungarian, like you'd like to be...
emil

paul ) wrote:
: ibokor wrote:

: >the truth of the matter is that the modern hungarians are quite a
: >mixed people --- as indeed most other populations in europe --- and
: >their forebears are mostly very much johnny-come-latelies in that
: >particular region of the world.

: But there are still people who 'look' like Magyars, and thus have a
: strong Magyar identity,

i'd be happy to put to the test your ability to distinguish the various
"nationalities"

as a cute anecdote, kerezsy jeno told us a story from his youth in
balatonfured during the horthy days. a csendor came into the korcsma
and started a tirade about how the jews were ruining the country,
marring the pure magyar blood and should all be disposed of forthwith.
"what we need is a nation of pure magyars, like that man over there"
he proclaimed, pointing to the only jew in town.

if anyone harbours doubts about this story or its veracity, please
contact me by e-mail for kerezsy jeno's telephone number.

:just as Slavs look different than Italians,

that depends on which slav and which italian you take. if you take
a "typical ukranian" and someone from the aosta valley who looks
"typical", you could be right. but take someone from croatia and someone
from fiume and you may not find it so easy.
: creating strong identities for those groups.  There is a matter
: of person identity through family history, and roots, which goes
: hand-in-hand with whether someone 'looks' Polish, or French, or
: Greek.  That all peoples are of mixed ethnic ancestry, with
: some small influences from other groups,

in the very casews you mention, you are very wrong indeed. france is a
good example of the current mixture, not to mention the histroical one.
the bretons, basques, catalonians (the region of the langue d'oc)
the provencals, the alsatians and, of course, those who have migrated
from the colonies and mixed in.

as for poland, there were centuries of various slavic, nordic, lithuanian,
and germanic conquests and populational influences, to name but a few.

s for the greeks, over three hundred years (or was it four hundred)
of turkish rule, prior to that bulgarian domination of parts, etc. the
ancient greeks would not be recognised as greeks by you today.

:is not a convincing
: argument for losing the ethnic identity that still remains.  Do
: you condemn people who are proud of the achievement of their
: ancestors, and cast aside that identification as worthless?

yes, i do condemn people who are poud of others' achievements.
i also see such identification as being a two edged sword.
if a german is proud of a goethe or beethoven as part of his
glorious heritage, (s)he must also accept bismark and hitler, for
they are as much part of the heritage.

i have no problems with people recognising their cultural heritage,
and with seeking to sustain or even contribute to a particular
tradition. but i know of no european society or peoples whose
history is monolithic, which has a singlr clear and continuous
tradition. in most societies there has been competition between
strands of traditions, sometimes leading to civil war, but certainly
to social upheaval and change.

i cast that identification as "worthless' inasmuch as it is a
vicarious identity, subject to the distortions of fables and myths,

a simple example might illustrate the point: food. do you really
think you would be able to enjoy the diet of the magyars when
they settled the plains and hills? or even what they ate four hundred
years later? you would not recognise much of it as hungarian cuisine.
nor would they recognise today's hungarian cuisine as magyar.

i mean, how long is it since piros paprika was introduced? i recall reading
in a cook-book (it might have been one of gundel's) that it was introduced
at about the time of the crimean war between england and russia because
of the lack of availabilty of pepper. from what i have read, about the
most common flavouring used in hungary about the time of the congress
of vienna was saffron. (i have no references here, and since it has
been quite a while since i read these items, i cannot even tell you
where to look. if i am wrong, please correct me.)

about the only constancy in history is that things are ever changing.
don't get me wrong. i am *not* saying that all ethnic groups are the same,
with no differences between them. there are cultural, historical and
often physical differences, but thee seem to form a continuum rather
then discrete classes, with cultural identity often depending upon
shared myths. many swiss people cling to the legend of william tell,
even though it is not clear that there was such a person before schiller
came on the scene. these sustaining myths are extremely important
for the notion of "nation" as well as for religions and even
scientificism.

while they are innocuous mind-games, i have no problems with them,
but --- as in the situation which prompted this discussion --- these
geographic accidents of birth are being used in an attempt to deny
100 or 200 or however many people what most of us, in less guarded
moments, would call basic human rights. i have the temerity to
claim that most of us would agree that we should each be free to choose
where we go to live and work. what i see is the denial of that
right.

i agree that such a universal principle is problematic, but if we
were each to stay within our own culture, there would be no europeans
in the usa --- there would be no new jersey for you to write from.
the "america" and "canada" which accepted so many people fleeing
europe for a better life, or just to stay alive would not have been
there and those who were accepted would be speaking some algonquin
or whatever native american language.

: Is
: Henry Ford 3rd not to be proud of his grandfather, a pride he
: has for no other reason than his biological relationship with
: that ancestor?

i do not see why anyone should be proud of being henry ford's
grandson, of all people!

: Henry Ford 3rd should not act superior to the
: rest of us because of that relationship, but it is still a
: source of pride.

why?

: >you don't have to go very far from the centre of budapest to see
: >ample
: >evidence of civilisations there some thousand years (as an order of
: >magnitude) before the first ofthe hordes arrived from asia.

: That may be true, but those civilisations were long gone when the
: Magyars arrived.

are you suggesting that the "honfoglalas" occurred iun an unpopulated
region? are you suggesting that there was some magical no-man's land
between the slavs to the north of the hungary and those to the south
and for some mysterious reason these people did not enter the
fertile plains of today's hungary?

: Even if that were not the case, you cannot justify
: destroying a civilisation because they settled an area at a time
: when force, rather than right and wrong, was the accepted way of doing
: business.  Today we accept negotiation, and the rights of the weak, so
: conquest is no longer an acceptable way of doing business.


quite the contrary. force or its threat is still very much the way
business is doen in the world at large. it does not require a very
broad or deep knowledge of twentieth centiry history and/or current
affairs to see that the prevailing maxim is "a nagyobb kutya baszik".

: If you
: argue that any civilization which had prospered 500-1000 years ago from
: conquests, now must accept cultural destruction by immigration or by
: evacuation, few nations today would be spared.  Why not preserve what
: ethnic identity we have left, as we preserve ruins in museaums to
: help identify who we are, rather than discarding it, like some old
: scratched up Ming vase or worn out graffiti on the ceiling of the
: Sistine chapel, certainly not worth saving since it is not perfect
: any more.

the point is that "ethnic identity" is an evolving thing. the ethnic
identity you speak of is quite recent, and is the reult of much cross-
fertilisation. whenhungary accepted tens of thousands of greeks after
the civil war at the end of the forties, there was no break-down of
hungarian identity. i am sure that these settlers adapted and adopted
as well as contributing to the evolution of "hunagarian identity".
i see no reason why that should not continue.

: Having a multiethnic planet is a good thing - why not value it?

i do, very much so indeed. but the danger i see to it is the homogenisation
arising not so much from even millions of migrants, but by such phenomena
as MacDonalds, Coca Cola,  etc. where the food, it's taste, its presentation
is uniform throughout the world, i see the concentration of so much
international economic and cultural power in the hand of so few with
a common attitude is mitigating against cultural diversity.

tens of thousands of georgians or ceylonese or peruvians will not do as
much damage.

d.a.

paul ) wrote:
: >Let me repeat it, I was sarcastic. If I said this in earnest I might not be
: >an antisemite, but I would repeat a generalization based on stereotypes,

: Woops - I didn't get it.  Sorry about that Eva.

: Paul

wha? take it to alt.conspiracy guys! Eva'n'Paul get it rite pleeze!
later
emil

 wrote:
: Kenneth Nyirady of course is quite right that

: >Czechoslovakia lost the Carpatho-Ukraine/Sub-Carpathian Ukraine
:            /Trans-Carpathian Ukraine/Ruthenia/Karpatalja (your choice) after
: WWII.

robert kee "the world we left behind. a chronicle of the year 1939"
weidenfeld, london, 1984 P.140:

"... only in the carpatho-ukraine, which enjoyed the curious distinction
of being under three national flags in twenty-seven hours - czech, its own
and that of hungary - were there some casualties as carpatho-ukranians
vainly tried to defend their shortlived independence against invading
hungarians."

d.a.

paul ) wrote:
: >Let me repeat it, I was sarcastic. If I said this in earnest I might not be
: >an antisemite, but I would repeat a generalization based on stereotypes,


: Woops - I didn't get it.  Sorry about that Eva.

: >According to Paul:
: >>The Jewish Antidefimation League (JDL) would call this antisemitism, since
: >>you
: >>again label Jews with the stereotypical label of 'excellent businessmen'.

: AND

: >Let me repeat it, I was sarcastic. If I said this in earnest I might not be
: >an antisemite, but I would repeat a generalization based on stereotypes,
: >which is simply untenable. I have many Jewish friends who have less business

: My point was that, most P.C. folks would gasp at such as assertion, but
: stereotypes can be accurate.  All people of some group do not have to have
: some trait for a stereotype of that trait to be accurate.  As with
: statistics, the stereotype shows that among this group, this trait
: occurs more often than in the general population (any trait, and any
: group - I am not speaking of this case specifically).  Some folks find
: the application of mathamatics to people outragous, but like it or
: not, it can apply if used correctly.  This is how insurance companies
: calculate rates, right?  A white male in his 50's is more likely to have
: a heart attack than a white female in her 50's, therefore he pays more
: for health insurance.  But George Burn's smokes, drinks, and has lived
: to be more than 90 years old.  Is he being discriminated against? No.
: Statistics!  The relevant issue is, whether the stereotype is accurate,
: and not whether some find it insulting.  Russians are heavier drinkers
: than te Japanese - they may find this fact offensive, but it is accurate.
: Statistics!

: Paul

"there are lies, damn lies and statistics."

it was george burns who said that if you live to be 100, you've made it
because statistics show that almost no-one dies over the age of 100.

d.a.

> it--these analyses that you speak of were pretty quiet.  There were
> more apologists than critics.

The Russian left opposition (Trocki) tried to be loud... in between
KGB murders, I don't think they had a right lot of sympathy from
the West, even if their analysis were correct. No way you can call
them apologists.

>
> My main
> critique of Marxism is that it makes the naive assumption that people
> are good, once they have struck off their chains.  Thus Marxism
> contains the seeds of its own destruction.

I don't know where this - one of the main of many  - fallacy about
Marxism comes from, but annoys me most. At no point as far as I know
(and I am not a specialist in this neither) he relies on human good-
ness, the opposit is true, he examines what people do following strictly
their economic/material interests.
(I don't know why our kind
listowner is not shouting at us -yet, I would answer privately,
but I am not set to see your addresses.)
The revolution was defeated not by human meannes or even stupidity,
but inadequate economic/material conditions.
Eva (not a very good nun but average sister) Durant


> Charles
> Kook, Third Class

You are graciously promoted by me to first class!

> we could scrap them all.  But we don't.  Are you saying that
> half of British exports were armaments?  What about whisky,
> Stilton, and Harris tweed?  That's what I bought from Britain
> in the past year.
>
Second is tourism probably. Your purchase must count towards
that.

>
> --Do you know to whom those credits were extended?  Does this
> reflect young Thatcher's success in Saudi Arabia, or did they
> go to the old formerly Marxist-dominated countries?
>

They did good trade with Argentina before the Falklands lunacy
and even better with Iraq... As you know, they have not a lot of
scruples about this. A lot of blackmail is involved - I wonder how much
with ex-soc countries. Such as, we give you money to build hydro-energy
project, if you buy arms (see: Malaysia, an other favourit democracy
of the West, and Indonasia etc)

Imi Bokor writes:
> i think you are mistaken on that point. when was the first hungarian
> border
> drawn up? how long was there a turkish occupation? for how long was
Occupation does not draw new borders. Russian occupation did not,neither
did Rumanian or German.

> there a
> separate kingdom of transylvania. from the time of the turkish
There was never a kingdom of Transylvania.

> occupation
> until after world war i there was no sovereign separate hungary. that
Please review the description of the Habsburg Empire.
> alone takes care of a large chunk of the thousand years, and perhaps
> pertinently, it takes care of all but seventy odd years of the last
> three or
> four centuries.
Add Hungarian History 101 to the US History 101. If you would read other
things than a dictionary, you might make more erudite comments.


> i wonder if you are seriously proposing the redrawing of boundaries
> upon the "traditional lines" of four centuries ago. or do you only
> wish to do that in the special case of hungary?
In some places historic boundaries were redrawn in recent times after
thousands of years of changes. I am not in favor of either, but certainly
you cannot claim that the desire exists only in some Hungarians.

Jeliko

> >
> >I haven't met anyone anywhere who does. That chaos theory is the
> >nearest...
> >

> --Now, Beloved Sister Eva, your ideology is showing.

I wasn't hiding it ever...

There are several
on this list who understand the market system quite well and have posted
> very clear discussions of it.

"Kibicnek semmi sem draga"  - how do you know their guesses are better
than mine?

> (story about cadillac loving socialists)

I cannot admire products of socialism yet (as it hasn't existed by
Marx's and my definition) so everything so far being produced
by progression of human generations is at the moment a capitalist
product. I remind you that today's socialists happen to live
in a capitalist environment unfortunately and I wonder what logic
would expect them to survive differently than other people.
(good example to see one of the reasons why socialism couldn't
go on without deformation in one country)


> >
> --But it does work for most people most of the time.  That is what
> you are up against.
>

So what is the necessary level of unhappyness/poverty/riots/crime  before
we should consider alternatives?

>
> --Oh, we'd not impose on you for a bed.  Just entertain you.  Kids?
> How many are we talking about?  As for Indian cuisine, it is one of
> our favorites.  There's a little place in Nottingham, for instance,
> right across from the Theatre Royal...And someday I'll tell you the
> story of the Indians, the Nigerians, the Americans, and the crown
> jewels in the tower.  But only if you are good and say your prayers.
>

Only two and they don't eat a lot... I've seen Nottingham, the Way to
Jerusalem pub really impressed me. I don't give up my principles on
no-pray easy... We'll watch you quietly and promise not to giggle...

Andras Kornai writes in response to Eva Durant:
> I strongly disagree with the statement that the human condition is getting
> worse every year -- compare life now to what it was 50, 100, 150 years ago
> and you see that there has been considerable progress, not only in material
> wealth but also in literacy, in democracy, even in life expectancy (despite
> recent setbacks in Hungary and the region). That said, I actually see no
> compelling argument that there *cannot be* a better solution than
capitalism
> -- perhaps there can be. The only argument that I see is not a logical but
a
> practical one: several other things have been tried and none of them seem
to
> work nearly as well.
As they say at the end of the prayer AMEN!


> > 3. I think you mean the implementation of socialism based on Marxist
> >    philosophy, this  h a s    n o t    h a p p e n n e d  yet,
> >    because Marx defined socialism to be based on the  M O S T democratic
> >    structures in history   -   NOT TRIED!!!!!!  Worth looking into!!!!
> When I grew up this used to be the primary argument of the "scientific
> socialism" teachers, namely that the "existing socialism" is but a faint
> echo of the real thing (communism) which will be soooo wonderful it's
> really worth putting up with all the hardship of building toward it. It
> seems quite unclear why this would be worth looking into -- there is
> nothing in the original writings of Marx or the subsequent Lenin-Stalin-Mao
> edifice that would lead me to believe that communism is a sustainable
> system. The major premise "to all according to their needs" is utopian
> as long as *at least one* resource is scarce. If all resources would be
> plentiful, now that would be the Garden of Eden, and the whole issue
> would be moot. The question is what you do while you are not in the
> Garden of Eden but in this Vale of Tears.
All the harping I read from Ms Durant makes me glad that she was not a M/L
instructor when I had to study those "scientific" idiosyncracies" it was bad
as it was, but now I know it could have been a lot worse.
I never would have believed that there were true believers. I am reminded of
Koestler"s story in the Invisible Writing as to when he decided it was high
time to leave Germany.

Regards,Jeliko.

>
> --I suspect that these figures are accurate.  We are a country
> of 250 million.  Why in Hell do people keep emigrating here?
> I wouldn't want to live in such a place!  Would you?
>

They probably get a different propaganda... Actually, people
in my experience are not all that keen on emigrating, it seems
to be in general the last choice.

>
> In short, this is a carefully selected set of statistics.  While they
> may be true, they do not present a rounded picture of the country.  If
> they did, there would be boatloads of people trying to get to Cuba,
> or Viet Nam.  Or Manchester.
>
All statistics are carefully selected by the users.
I know Californians who live (for us) in enviable luxury and they
are leaving the US. Now, about "lesser" Americans, perhaps they
believe the propaganda, that their lot is the best, consequently
they think everywhere else is   r e a l l y   crap...

>
>
> But there are still people who 'look' like Magyars, and thus have a
> strong Magyar identity, just as Slavs look different than Italians,
>
Hm, I am interested, how does a Hungarian look like?

>
> Having a multiethnic planet is a good thing - why not value it?
>

I did not read anything against keeping ethnic traditions or
identities whatever this later is, in imi bokor's post.
The point is that "separatism" is not practical and makes no
sense. Also  traditions/culture is definitaly
not conditioned on the "right" ethnicity - meaning, that a fair
number of great Hungarians were not ethnic Hungarians - proving
the mixture statement.

Andras Kornai writes

> > Henry Ford 3rd should not act superior to the
> > rest of us because of that relationship, but it is still a
> > source of pride.
> And why should he be proud of what grandpa did?

Family pride is an illogical concept for you?  And if we prick you,
would you bleed green?

That a member of a group feels good that another member has done
well isn't so strange to me...merely, well, human.

--Greg

>>do you think that there would be similar objections to settling
>>100 germans, or austrians or swiss or americans or canadians?

It is 200. And from my side yes, even more, since they need it less.

Sandor

Date sent:  21-DEC-1994 13:43:48
>
>On Tue, 20 Dec 1994 15:24:57 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>>Sorry, I don't know Charles' address, but this is meant for him.
>>Eva Durant

To Eva Durant and Charles:  neither of you should ever change (opinions or
otherwise).  The world would be much duller without you.
>

>--I suspect that these figures are accurate.  We are a country
>of 250 million.  Why in Hell do people keep emigrating here?
>I wouldn't want to live in such a place!  Would you?

Because the statistics Eva listed are only for industrialized nations.
Most of the immigrants coming to America are coming from less developed
areas which compete with if not surpass America in unpleasantness.
Immigrants from industrialized nations are usually here for a reason other
than seeking a better life (ie. marriage, etc.)  Most Europeans I know who
have been to the US snicker when they here standard US rhetoric about what
a great place it is.

>>> Of the major industrial nations, the U.S. is:
>>>
>>> [All kinds of things were deleted]

>>>
>>> "America is becoming a land of private greed and public squalor.  This
>>>    book is an indispensable road map through the wreckage.  The facts
>>>    it  reveals will startle you.  They may depress you.  But ideally
>>>    they'll  fire you up to help rebuild this nation."
>
>--This is Carter's....er, Clinton's Robert B. Reich?  Do tell.  Why
>doesn't he emigrate if it's so bad?  Why does he remain in a cushy
>job in Washington?  I'd move to the Isle of Skye if I were he.

Maybe he's trying to change things. :)  Or maybe he likes the salary.  Just
because he's an optimist/opportunist (take your pick) doesn't mean he's
wrong.

>In short, this is a carefully selected set of statistics.  While they
>may be true, they do not present a rounded picture of the country.  If
>they did, there would be boatloads of people trying to get to Cuba,
>or Viet Nam.  Or Manchester.

How about boatloads headed toward Paris, Berlin, or Milan?  Not likely, but
not because things aren't going wrong in the US.  Might have something to
do with propaganda teaching generations of US schoolchildren that they in
the secular version of the Promised Land while denying them real education
about anything outside the continental US.


Funny how we ended up on immigration again.

                        Thomas Breed
                        

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"

Joe Pannon ) wrote:
: Re:

: >the truth of the matter is that the modern hungarians are quite a
: >mixed people --- as indeed most other populations in europe --- and
: >their forebears are mostly very much johnny-come-latelies in that
: >particular region of the world.

: Is the Danube less of a Danube down at the Iron Gate than up at Passau?
: In that span more water flowed into it from other rivers than it carried
: at the German-Austrian border.

: Danubius

of course not, but the danube nolonger contains only pure swabian water,
it is now mixed with swiss, bavarian, hessian, bohemian, austrian, slovak,
moravian, ruthenian, hungarian, transylvanian, slovenian, croatian, serbian,
bulgarian and rumanian water as well. in short it has become a mongrel of
a river.

d.a.

On Wed, 21 Dec 1994 11:36:36 GMT IMRE BOKOR said:
>
>i do, very much so indeed. but the danger i see to it is the homogenisation
>arising not so much from even millions of migrants, but by such phenomena
>as MacDonalds, Coca Cola,  etc. where the food, it's taste, its presentation
>is uniform throughout the world...

--I agree that at the point that the only thing to eat is MacDonald's and
to drink is Coca Cola, we will have arrived in Hell.

Charles

On Wed, 21 Dec 1994 13:50:33 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>
>The Russian left opposition (Trocki) tried to be loud... in between
>KGB murders, I don't think they had a right lot of sympathy from
>the West, even if their analysis were correct. No way you can call
>them apologists.
>
--Of course not.  But we knew little of them here, and I was speaking
of American communists, e.g., John Reed, Earl Browder, and Scott Nearing.

>> My main
>> critique of Marxism is that it makes the naive assumption that people
>> are good, once they have struck off their chains.  Thus Marxism
>> contains the seeds of its own destruction.
>
>I don't know where this - one of the main of many  - fallacy about
>Marxism comes from, but annoys me most. At no point as far as I know
>(and I am not a specialist in this neither) he relies on human good-
>ness.

--Not in the present situation, but after the revolution, the state
would wither away because it wouldn't be needed.  The shepherd would
tend his sheep, the shoemaker would make shoes, and all would be
gas and gaiters.

>(I don't know why our kind
>listowner is not shouting at us -yet, I would answer privately,
>but I am not set to see your addresses.)

--My address, Average Sister Eva, is 

>> Charles
>> Kook, Third Class
>
>You are graciously promoted by me to first class!

--I will accept the promotion proudly, but I did not expect to
rise in the ranks so fast.  There will be jealousy, I'm sure.

On Wed, 21 Dec 1994 14:01:34 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>
>They did good trade with Argentina before the Falklands lunacy
>and even better with Iraq... As you know, they have not a lot of
>scruples about this.

--No, they don't.  The British sold Napoleon his uniforms while they
were at war with him.

Charles,
Kook, First Class

I wish you all

                  A very   MERRY   CHRISTMAS  and

                  a healthy, prosperous, and very

                         HAPPY  NEW  YEAR

                                or a

                  JOYOUS    HOLIDAY    SEASON


                              Amos

On Wed, 21 Dec 1994 15:53:51 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>> >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> --Write it down, Average Sister Eva.  It's 
>> >>
>.... not here?

--You mean it wasn't in the last posting?  I never have figured out
how these damn things work.  I have amended the original post.

On Wed, 21 Dec 1994 15:16:20 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>
>I cannot admire products of socialism yet (as it hasn't existed by
>Marx's and my definition) so everything so far being produced
>by progression of human generations is at the moment a capitalist
>product.

--Oh.  Right.

 I remind you that today's socialists happen to live
>in a capitalist environment unfortunately and I wonder what logic
>would expect them to survive differently than other people.

--But they enjoy the fruits of capitalism so.  At least they could
live frugally and contribute their savings to the Party.

>So what is the necessary level of unhappyness/poverty/riots/crime  before
>we should consider alternatives?
>
--I don't know.  But you must remember, most of us are not unhappy,
the poverty rate is low by historic standards, riots are few, and crime
rates are down.

>> --Oh, we'd not impose on you for a bed.  Just entertain you.  Kids?
>
>Only two and they don't eat a lot...

--Two is no problem and they can eat all they want.  If it were
eighteen, I might not be so willing.

 I've seen Nottingham, the Way to
>Jerusalem pub really impressed me.

--Sure.  It's a biker bar.  I was in their one night with one of my
upper-class socialist friends.  I got to talking to some of the bikers,
and explained that my dad was a union man.  My socialist friend kept
quiet because his father was a broker in the City.  We ended up singing
a chorus of Solidarity Forever and parted friends.  My friend, the
socialist, never heard of the song.

                 We'll watch you quietly and promise not to giggle...

--No, I meant that you should be a good girl and pray now.  I don't
pray over food in public.  I'm not one of those.

Charles,
Kook, First Class

On Wed, 21 Dec 1994 16:04:30 +0000 Eva Durant said:
>>
>They probably get a different propaganda... Actually, people
>in my experience are not all that keen on emigrating, it seems
>to be in general the last choice.
>
--Well, sure, if you are a socialist.

>All statistics are carefully selected by the users.

--Most of the time this is true.  Now, you just remember that.

>I know Californians who live (for us) in enviable luxury and they
>are leaving the US.
--Naw, they are just moving to Oregon.  Most of the Californians
I know would be most comfortable on Mars or some other far-out
place.

 Now, about "lesser" Americans, perhaps they
>believe the propaganda, that their lot is the best, consequently
>they think everywhere else is   r e a l l y   crap...

--Strangely, many of us travel, even us "lesser" ones.  I think
that a lot of us stay here because it simply is familiar.  Others of
us stay because we beleive it beats the alternatives, even with the
rowdiness and difficulty.

Charles,
Kook, First Class

Jeliko wrote in connection with our discussion of the lack of military
defense of the country in 1918:

>In discussions with my father and several people who were participants in
the
>war, the comment came up several times that a real land reform (or even its
>offer) for those who would defend the country would have worked. Something
>like that would have been also better than a "large dose of nationalism".


This is certainly a very valid observation. The Hungarian peasantry received
nothing but promises when what they really wanted was land. Moreover, as I
mentioned somewhere earlier, Karolyi's government didn't represent the
Hungarian peasantry at all--as if they didn't exist. Perhaps immediate
landreform and immediate recruiting a viable army would have done the trick.

Eva Balogh

Thank you Joe for supporting my position on "Hungarianness." Since I was
trained as a historian, I am also interested in genealogy and if I lived in
Hungary I would do further research on my family. But as it is I do know that
just in the last three or four generations, I am a mixture of Hungarian,
German, and Croatian. And so what? Am I less of a Hungarian than the next
person. I doubt it.

As for that some people look Hungarian. Even that can be misleading. My
mother looked very much like a Hungarian: high cheekbones, etc. although as
far as I knew she didn't have a drop of Hungarian blood in her. It must have
been the air!

Eva Balogh

You may recall that I discovered several classmates and myself on a newly
published photograph which was taken at around 2 p.m. on October 23, 1956 at
Peto3fi te1r, a few minutes before we began that fateful march all the way to
Bem te1r, the Parliament, and, revolution.

I wrote to Istvan Bo2lcs, the associate editor-in-chief of *168 o1ra," who
published the photo and wrote a moving piece accompanying it. He himself was
also on the photograph. Although I wrote to Bo2lcs what I considered to be a
private letter, the newspaper published my letter as a "letter to the
editor." I thought that that was the end of it. Until this afternoon when I
found a large envelope from *168 o1ra" and in it an 18x24 cm enlargement of
the original photo. Accompanying it there was a very nice letter form Istva1n
Bo2lcs. If *168 o1ra* keeps up this good PR job I might just one day will be
their fan.

Eva Balogh

Several comments have surfaced about the physical apperance of 'typical'
Hungarian etc. this reminds me of a substantial paper in the journal
American Naturalist some years ago (I think 1991) where the people of Europe
and the Middle East were analysed for their physical appearance, gene
frequencies, etc. in order to test if they were groups which were different
from others. One firm conclusion was that on the basis of those characters,
there is absolutely no difference between the people of central and
southeastern Europe, i.e. one cannot distinguish between Slovaks,
Hungarians, Romanians, etc. So the perceived 'differences' are purely
cultural (which is amply sufficient to maintain a strong sense of national
identity). There is no biological grounds to declare anybody as having a '
typical Hungarian' appearance.
Gabor Lovei

To all members of the HUNGARY list
                        I send the following heartfelt wish:


                        May this Christmas and the coming year
                        hold great promise for you and yours!

                        Bob...az arpadhoni

>editor." I thought that that was the end of it. Until this afternoon when I
>found a large envelope from *168 o1ra" and in it an 18x24 cm enlargement of
>the original photo. Accompanying it there was a very nice letter form Istva1n


Congratualtions Eva.  I'm glad you have a nice memento of that important day.
Merry Christmas, and thanks for taking that march!

Paul Gelencser

d.a. wrote:

>: Is the Danube less of a Danube down at the Iron Gate than up at Passau?
>: In that span more water flowed into it from other rivers than it carried
>: at the German-Austrian border.
>: Danubius
>bulgarian and rumanian water as well. in short it has become a mongrel of
>a river.
>d.a.


H2O doesn't have emotions and pride, people do.

Paul

Eva B. wrote:

>As for that some people look Hungarian. Even that can be misleading. My
>mother looked very much like a Hungarian: high cheekbones, etc. although as
>far as I knew she didn't have a drop of Hungarian blood in her. It must have

No one asid it was an exact indicator, but there is a noticeable trend.  Sure
there are Hungarians who have more German blood than Magyar, and I am one of
them, and who do not 'look' Hungarian at all, as I don't, but there are still
those who look Magyar; high, wide cheekbones, and 'sad' eyes, and such
distinctions are part of identity.  Having some mixing with other than
Magyars is not catastrophic, but if it becomes overwhelming then some aspect
of identity is lost.  We had this discussion a few months ago, and I still
believe that if I were to move to China tomorrow, that would not make me
Chinese, even if my passport said I was.

Someone posted an article about a study which proved there is no biological
basis to call someone Hungarian, Slovak, or Rumanian.  First, I'd like to ask
him to repost it, since I accidentally deleted it.  second, that assertion is
hard to believe.  I was at a conference last year with young Hungarians, meetin
g
in Chicago, and there was a guy there who I would have sworn was Oriental Asian
;
almond eyes like Chinese, or Japanese, and I thought he was a guest.  When he
began speaking Hungarian, I almost fell over!  Later I found out he was from
a small village in Hungary.  I also have learned that there are such villages
which have not had much contact with the rest of the population, and whose
people still 'look' Asian.  Now, I don't think there can be any way to
connect those folk with anything other than a Magyar heritage - they sure are
not Polish!  Most Hungarians may not has such obvious characteristics, but ther
e
may be a trend - not having been to Hungary I cannot honestly say from
 experience,
but I've been told and have heard older Hungarians say that some guy/woman
looks Hungarian.  Surely not a perfect system, but some people feel confident
that they can tell who 'looks` Hungarian.


Paul

Subject: Re: Trianon
From: JELIKO, 
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 09:27:37 PST
In article > JELIKO,
 writes:


>In some places historic boundaries were redrawn in recent times
after
>thousands of years of changes. I am not in favor of either, but
certainly
>you cannot claim that the desire exists only in some Hungarians.
>
>Jeliko

i am not aware of ever claiming that only hungarians had aspirations
to
reclaim "their" land. quite the contary, i have pointed to the
belligerent
consequences of competing "traditional" claims on the same
geographic
region.

i also recall repeatedly asking if those who wish to "reclaim lost
territory" would accord others the same privileges and rights and
impose
the same burdens on other countries.

i have yet to receive a reply to these pertinent questions.

d.a.

Subject: Re: Trianon
From: JELIKO, 
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 09:27:37 PST
In article > JELIKO,
 writes:
>Imi Bokor writes:
>> i think you are mistaken on that point. when was the first
hungarian
>> border
>> drawn up? how long was there a turkish occupation? for how long
was
>Occupation does not draw new borders. Russian occupation did
not,neither
>did Rumanian or German.

why is turkish or german or russian conquest "occupation"
but "magyar" conquest "honfglalas"?

why is it that when the "magyars" are the perpetrators, there were
no victims, the conquered and banished have no legitimate claim, but
when the "magyars" are the vanquished, then it is illegitimate and
reprehensible?

d.a.

d.a. wrote:

>as for poland, there were centuries of various slavic, nordic, lithuanian,
>and germanic conquests and populational influences, to name but a few.

In all of the examples you cited I agree there are now shades of gray.  But
as you cross the gray between ethnic groups and cultures, there comes a
point where you can say, now this is unique to this group.  But yes, there
is lots of gray today, after hundreds of years of living next to each other.


>if a german is proud of a goethe or beethoven as part of his
>glorious heritage, (s)he must also accept bismark and hitler, for
>they are as much part of the heritage.

That's right - take the good with the bad.  The bad things are certainly not
something to have pride in, but they are part of the package.

>tradition. but i know of no european society or peoples whose
>history is monolithic, which has a singlr clear and continuous
>tradition. in most societies there has been competition between
>strands of traditions, sometimes leading to civil war, but certainly


Lots of gray, but at some point it will all become gray - that is what I
fear.  When there is no rthnic difference between a Japanese person and
a French person, something has been lost (rthnic=ethnic).  The path of
the loss is, from black-and-white, to shades or gray (as it is today), to
all gray and no shades.  This is what I fear.


>i have the temerity to
>claim that most of us would agree that we should each be free to choose
>where we go to live and work. what i see is the denial of that
>right.

I disagree, that we should each be free to choose where we go to live and work,
since the choice of whether to let me in should be that os the host country.
This is a new situation brought on by great advances in transportation.  We
should address the consequences of these conveniences.  There needs to be
an understanding of what it means that the average person has the ability to
travel anyplace on the globe.  To now, economic issues have driven the
decision-making process.  Cultural and ethnic issues must also be taken into
acount.  In a situation as in Bosnia, refugees should be accepted on a
TEMPORARY basis, but must be expected to leave the refuge country in a
timely manner.


>i do, very much so indeed. but the danger i see to it is the homogenisation
>arising not so much from even millions of migrants, but by such phenomena
>as MacDonalds, Coca Cola,  etc. where the food, it's taste, its presentation
>is uniform throughout the world, i see the concentration of so much

No arguement here - I absolutely agree!  I hate the idea that the typical
lunch in some country other than the US is Pizza Hut.

Paul

Andras Kornai wrote:

>Is there? Peto3fi or Liszt took great pride in being Hungarian, yet the
>former is known to be of mixed Slavic blood and the latter didn't speak
>the language.

Is that right - Liszt didn't speak Hungarian?  What is his connection to
Hungary?  this is interesting.  Are there other such examples?

>perfect ethnic division ever -- tribes that do not practice exogamy
>tend to acquire a host of degenerative diseases and disappear from the

The Japanese seem to be doing well.

>scene. Hungary always was home to a pretty mixed crowd, and if you think
>you can trace your genes to a pure ethnic setup you must be laboring
>under some pretty weird illusions.

No, I cannot.  Mine are equally Magyar and German.  If I marry a Polish woman,
and our son marries an Indian woman, their kids will be 1/8 Magyar, and at leas
t
that much of several other groups.  What is the Magyar connection at that point
?
I cannot give a definiation of what percent of Magyar blood is the minimum to
call youself Magyar, since as with all things there are shades of gray, but
at some point the Magyar connection becomes irrelelvant.  When the Magyar core
is gone, and becomes just another influence, the Hungarian identity has been
somewhat reduced.  What I have in common with some other Hungarian who is
1/2 Magyar and 1/2 Slav, is our common Magyar 1/2.  That is what we have in
common, and that is part of what bind us together.

Paul

>Add Hungarian History 101 to the US History 101. If you would read other
>things than a dictionary, you might make more erudite comments.

>Jeliko

Thanks, Jeliko


Paul

d.a. wrote

>i also recall repeatedly asking if those who wish to "reclaim lost
>territory" would accord others the same privileges and rights and
>impose
>the same burdens on other countries.

This is now beyond my understanding of Hungarian history, but as a
concept, ofcourse.  What I ask for myself I must offer to others.
If 2 people have the same claim on the same land, either the true
owner should be determined, or if the claims are equally valid a
compromise must be reached.  but I would not expect some benefit be
offered to me without offering it to others as well.

Paul

d.a. wrote:

>why is it that when the "magyars" are the perpetrators, there were
>no victims, the conquered and banished have no legitimate claim, but
>when the "magyars" are the vanquished, then it is illegitimate and
>reprehensible?

I agree.  conquest is wrong in both cases.  The interesting question
is when a conquest benefits all people, except ofcourse those who have been
conquored.  In the case of the US, destroying native Indian civilization
was wrong.  But how would WWII have turned out if there was no US?  Would
the Nazis now control Europe and northern Africa, and would the Japanese
monarchy control Asia?  Does this benefit offered by the existance of the
US out weigh the crime against the Indians?  I don't know what to think
about this.

Paul

Paul--

I'm afraid your statement about immigration doesn't wash. The world of the
1990s and beyond is moving towards more open borders, not closing them down,
particularly in Europe. In the long term, it's a fait accompli. The only way
culture can be preserved is via the energies of those interested in preserving
it. Usually that means fighting off the corrosive effects of mass commerciali-
zation more than influx of individuals of neighboring nationalities.

Regards,

Marc Nasdor

Does anyone have information about the name GYULA or GYULAI. I
was told this is the name of a town and also the name of a sausage. Also any
information or contact with someone with the family name of GYULAI, would
be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Ed Gyulai

Jeliko to Bokor:

> Occupation does not draw new borders. Russian occupation did not,neither
> did Rumanian or German.

This sounds familiar, doesn't it, Jeliko?
Was it on s.c.r. we read his kind of BS last time?
I'm sure he must be getting a bagful of congratulatory e-mail from them.

Joe

Ed Gyulai asks for information about the name GYULA GYULAI--
I'm sure others will have more detailed info, but the name Gyula appears in
at least one place name, in Romania--Gyulafehe'rva'r in magyar, Alba Julia in
Romanian. But I have no idea of the origin of the name Gyula itself.

Good luck!
Be1la

Haldun asks about the "reality" of Turkish baths in Budapest--
Indeed, they exist and indeed they were built by the Ottomans.  Among them,
the Kira'yi Baths, either or both the Luka'cs and the Ruda Baths, and perhaps
one or two others.  The Kira'lyi at least still have the original Turkish
crescent on the roof of the main cupola.  So go and enjoy!

Allaha i^smarladi^k!
Be1la

Eva (Balogh) and others have referred to the "krampusz" (a devil-like
figure) accompanying the Mikula1s (Saint Nicholas) on December 6.  I have
no specific knowledge of this figure, but I would guess that it is a holdover
from very early pagan times in Asia.  Tekla Do2mo2to2r has written about the
 custom of "rego2le1s," which sounds very much like the obviously Christianized
"bethlemesek" tha tEva referred to.  The name seems to be an ancient Finno-
Ugrian one, and comes from the refrain of a song chanted by children who went
from house to house around Christmas/New Year's time:  "Haj [hej] rego" rejtem,
/Azt is megadhatja/Az a nagy u'risten."  But Do2mo2to2r also says that this
custom is Europe-wide, not just Hungarian, ancient or modern.

Boldog Kara1csonyi U2nnepeket mindenkinek!
Be1la

> Haldun asks about the "reality" of Turkish baths in Budapest--
> ...
> Allaha i^smarladi^k!
> Be1la

<G> <G>

Thank you for the info.

Haldun

On Thu, 15 Dec 1994, Phil Dietrich wrote:

>  Can anybody please tell me the origins of the Hungarian Christmas carol
> "Angels from Heaven" Author, city, time. Also where I might find it in the
> U.S. Thanks!
>
I've found this:on a todays used catholic book
it's first edition Szentmihalyi: ENEKESKONYV 1798; and later
in GYimesi gyujtemeny 1804 /collection of Gyimes county  nowdays in
Romania/
Regards sb.