wrote:
: In article >, Wally Keeler > wrote:

: Wally to Dan Pop:
: >I regret that my lengthy posting of dates, names, places, sources, regarding
: >the February 20, 1990 Vatra Romaneasca Manifesto and circumstances offended 
: >you so much that you felt compelled to make a personal insult.

: I am surprised that you are surprised, Wally!  You've been reading their
: messages long enough to see that this is their typical MO.  Just that
: some go into it later than others.  Dan is one of the "later" ones.
: To be fair, there are some who don't do it at all, but you seldom hear
: from them, anyway. 
: Joe

Thank you Joe; I can give as good as I get. I prefer to be challanged, 
questioned, etc. It's good for the brain. I've been lurking for a while. 
Then I saw the sparks fly when I jumped in on the Vatra Romaneasca and 
Gypsy threads. I'm curious how much of it is based on the fact that I am 
an "ethnic" Canadian, and how dare I post so much information on a 
subject they think they should know so much more about. Oh well, mostly I 
am interested.

In all cases, there seemed to be a non-chalance about the power of Vatra 
Romaneasca. They (PUNR) won about 8% of the senate seats and the same for 
the Chamber of Deputies. Combine this with the 4% won by the PRM and we 
have a political attitude and ideology which is third in power after FDSN 
and CDR. It would surpass the FSN. 12% is not enough to make policy for 
Romania, but it is enough to significantly influence policy.

Canada has had three political parties of significance: conservatives, 
liberals, socialists. The socialists have never won federal power, but 
they wield considerable political influence. I'm afraid the racist PUNR 
and PRM have similar influence in Romania. Who knows, perhaps Dan Pop is 
unequivocably correct -- the Vatra Romaneasca Manifesto was a VR fraud 
written and concocted by  Corneliu Vadim Tudor, leader of the PRM 
(Greater Romania Party)

Vladimir Tismaneanu and Mircea Mihaies wrote an interesting article in 
East European Reporter, Vol 5 no. 1, p. 25-27. It referred to Romania's 
"ethnocentric fundamentalism, meaning a mixture of tribalist myths and 
wild allegations about foreign conspiracies."

Dan Pop selected a single clause from a sentence referring to Ceausescu 
and if I understand his thesis correctly, concluded that the manifesto 
was a fraud based solely on that fact. However it is not so simple. 
Ceausescu's policy viz a viz the Hungarians, was looked on favourably at 
the time of his era, but was restrained. Tismaneanu and Mihaies, say it 
better:

"Despite his best efforts, Nicolae Ceausescu never succeeded in fully 
exploiting nationalism. Most Romanians were left indifferent by the 
official nationalism of the regime because it was linked to Ceausescu's 
personal images and to the rhetoric of Marxism-Leninism. The fact that 
Ceausescu was a committed communist made his nationalism opportunistic, 
used for the glorification of the Conducator and as a tool for political 
repression. Furthermore, nobody actually benefited from this policy, with 
the possible exception of the dictator himself and a group of syncophants 
who succeeded in engineering unparalleled cult of personality. This this 
identification between the leader, the party and nation deprived 
nationalism of meaning."

"All the same, under Ceausescu a plethora of magazines and publications 
promoting the mythology of party defined national interests thrived. The 
most virulent of these was the weekly Saptamina. Its editor, Eugen Barbu, 
was for a long time a member of the Central Committee."

The exaggeration of Barbu, Tudor and Paunescu continues today in 
publications, continuing and promoting Ceausescu's policies with more 
venom and freedom. Tismaneanu & Mihaies write,

"...they began to slander all former dissidents, to engage in morbid 
nati-Hungarian and anti-semitic campaigns. The most venomous of these 
rags, Romania Mare. . . actually proclaimed 1991 'the year of 
international struggle against Hungarian terrorism.' In spite of that -- 
or maybe because of it -- the paper received an award from then Interior 
Minister, Doru Viorel Ursu, for 'journalistic objectivity'. Meanwhile its 
estimated circulation of 600,000 makes it the most popular of the 
country's periodicals."

"Most of these self-appointed oracle are actually the Conducator's former 
cheer-leaders."

That is why the idiots made reference to Ceausescu in the manifesto. 
There is a deep-rooted sickness in Romania when 600,000 read such trash 
and vote for PUNR and PCR. Instead of attacking me, the Romanians on this 
thread have the intelligence to know what to do. 
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

The purpose in having two Hungarian groups is that the dicussions are
very different and it tends to discourage the development of
social-cultural postings.  Usually one is advised to read a newsgroup for
a while to get an idea of what it is like.  After reading this newsgroup
one is bombarded with political arguments/debate.
Barb Pataki









-- 
Barb Pataki

On Tue, 23 May 1995, Wally Keeler wrote:

> That is why the idiots made reference to Ceausescu in the manifesto. 
> There is a deep-rooted sickness in Romania when 600,000 read such trash 
> and vote for PUNR and PCR. Instead of attacking me, the Romanians on this 
> thread have the intelligence to know what to do. 

Wally you are blind as a bat, and your 'sonar' is hopelessly out of its
ultrasonic tune !

People around here objected to some of your wild and misguided allegations.

You were exagerating the Gipsy 'persecution' theme, while trying to establish
paralels to other models of persecution that you may have been more 
familiar with !

You were pig headed about it, and could not bring yourself to listen and
accept any input not originating in the rush that slaming your keyboard
was giving you !

As such, it is not surprising that you were reminding people more and more
of the finger pointing mannerisms and the paranoid conspiratorial delusions 
of political feces gorging bigots such as Funar and WC Tudor ;

That is why you were greeted with hostility ! People figured, we have enough
idiots of our own, do we need a dork from Canada ?

m. cristian

In article >,
Steven C. Scheer > wrote:

>Istenem, itt nem arrol van szo, hogy az angol anyanyelvuek mit
>gondolnak a "Magyar" szorol, csupan arrol, hogy a "Magyar" szo
>hasznalata (mely nem eppen kedvezo korulmenyek kozott lett egy
>Angol jovevenyszo) nem eppen egy eszszeru dolog. Azota jobban

Pista,
kezdem kapisgalni, hogy ebben a vitaban nem az a lenyeg, amit kimondanak
a vitazo felek, hanem az, amit nem.  Ugyanis az otthoni (magyar)
kozeletben mar szinte ki sem lehet mondani a "magyar" szot anelkul, hogy
valahonnan (persze mindig ugyanabbol az iranybol) ne kezdenenek egybol
"kirekesztesrol" panaszkodni.  Lehet, hogy ez az itteni nevcsere vita is
egyfele kivetitese ennek, s ebben az esetben en, akit a Zoli nagy
Csurkistanak hisz, megis az o oldalan vagyok ebben a vitaban.

Remelem tevedek, s nem errol van szo.

Jozsi

In article >,
CLARY Olivier > wrote:
>
>I do not remember you showed his informant lied. She mentioned, as
>I remember, discriminations by some bosses at work (easier to get fired,
>harder to be employed or to advance) and by some policemen (more controls).

I don't know if you, Olivier, or others on this group used to read the
HUNGARY list a few years ago when this subject was heavily debated
there.  One of the regulars in the list was a Hungarian guy from
Australia, who came from Transylvania.  He used to detail these
discriminations from first hand experience.  I still remember one of his
very emotional posts, complaining how ethnic Romanians, coming from the
highlands and "just dropped the axe" (his phrase!) were given the jobs
of highly educated and skilled Hungarians.  I haven't seen that guy's
posts quite a few years now.

Joe

In article >,
Warren Lavallee > wrote:
>                                RESULT
>         unmoderated group soc.culture.hungarian fails 157:91

Thanks God, it's over!  I don't even care which way it went.

Joe

On 21 May 1995, Tasgal Richard wrote:

> In article >  (Miha Ahronovitz) writes:
> >The following quote is extracted from Philip Roth:
> >
> >Everyone speaks about Jews Walesa told Roth. Spain was ruined by the
> >expulsion of Jews, the Solidarity leader said during their two-hour
> >meeting at the Gdansk shipyards, where Solidarity was born in 1980.
> >When people say to me, What Jew will be crazy enough to come here? I
> >explain to them that the long experience, over many hundreds of years, of
> >Jews and Poles together cannot be summed up with the word
> >anti-Semitism. Lets talk about a thousand years of glory rather than
> >four years of war. The greatest explosion of Yiddish culture is no less
> >Polish than Jewish. Poland without Jews is unthinkable. Poland needs
> >Jews, Walesa told the American-born Jewish author, and the Jews need
> >Poland, Philip, I feel that I am reading to you out a story you
> >wrote.
> 
> Well, it is from Philip Roth, though you omitted (lack of time? desire to
> save bandwidth?) the fact that it is stated by a character in a work of
> fiction, _Operation Shylock_.  Even within the internal context of that
> novel, "truth" is an extremely elusive quantity.  In my view, besides,
> _Operation Shylock_ is one of Roth's riper books.  And to go from the
> words of a character to the views of Philip Roth to real life (if that
> is what you are interested in) is a very big stretch.
> 
> >(will follow)
> 
> Please don't.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Tasgal                      "Do not sing without harp accompaniment."
>                --Pythagoras
> 
> 
>

In article >  (Dan Pop) writes:
|Could you also do some research about the Romanians who were forced to
|leave their jobs and their homes in the counties Covasna and Harghita,
|immediately after December '89?  I'm affraid that Hungarian sources of
|information won't be very helpful for this purpose.  OTOH, it would help
|understanding why Vatra became so popular in that timeframe.
[...]
|Octavian Buracu is one of the leaders of the Romanian opposition in
|Cluj, so his wife would have been fired even if she were of "pure"
|Romanian origin.

Thank you for these remarks. You see, such debates are informative to me,
I can see different sources, different views.
-- Olivier

In article >  (J
anos Szamosfalvi) writes:
>But now we need to find new topics to fill up 
>the void left after the imminent departure of magyar vs. hungarian name-war.

Say, RFDs about splitting scm to create 1. a politics group, 2. a HIX group?
Enough for at least one year of flames!
:-)
-- Olivier

In article > Gabor Paller,
 writes:
>Why us, Lord, why us ??????

A fickó ABC-sorrendben halad, már a románok is
megkapták a saját adagjukat..

Tamás

------------ Forwarded message ------------
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 22:59:04 -0700
From: Jonathan Rand >
To: Gotthard Saghi-Szabo >
Subject: Re: Los Angeles, CA - Hungarian Tanchaz

Dear Gotthard:

I'm afraid we've had to cancel the June 3rd Tanchaz in Los Angeles. Our 
next Tanchaz will be September 2, 1995 at Gypsy Camp with live music. 
Sorry for the change. Thanks.

Jon Rand

In article >,
Gotthard Saghi-Szabo  > wrote:

>just take it easy :) . I do not think I need any defense from anyone,
>and I do not think Zoli can take any more offense this month .

No, I didn't mean to defend you because I didn't even see the article
Zoli responded to.  I just wanted to correct what I thought  was
inaccurate.  Because I definitely remember I've read it somewhere more
than once that Goncz's dad, who was a rather famous tenisz star in his
time, and later a popular tenisz instructor (known as Goncz Lala),
married the rich owner of a tenisz pro store (shop), who was Jewish.
Unfortunately I don't recall her name now.  I must have read it at the
time Goncz was made the Prez, because that's when all these Goncz bios
circulated here in the Hungarian papers.

>Joe, just do not let him to drag you into some other debate of clearly 
>bad taste. It was meant to be a provocation against me :)

Oh, I am immune to that now.  I've been already called that, so I might
as well "deliver on it." ;-)  Besides, he was even more restrained than
what I expected. 

Joe

In article >,
Zoli Fekete, keeper of hungarian-faq > wrote:

>Jewish is someone who considers himself such, and he hasn't.

Oh, I didn't know this is how you meant it.  Sorry.

BTW, I wonder how this principle will hold with other Hungarians of
Jewish background when it comes to that restitution Bob Dole and Newt
Gingrich wrote about.  Will they be satisfied with the same restitution
other Hungarians get?  You know, I am thinking of the recently expressed
decision of Jewish Hungarian leaders NOT to be considered a minority,
thus entitled to special considerations. 

> Since he isn't, it has zero relevance what the Jewish tradition 
>would've said had his mother been Jewish. But I heard she's Protestant, 
>anyway.

That's fine.  I think some rabbis still would probably consider him a
Jew, though perhaps a black sheep.

> << This space is intentionally left blank >>

But it's blank no more! ;-)

Joe

In article >, Dan Pop > wrote:
>
>Could you also do some research about the Romanians who were forced to
>leave their jobs and their homes in the counties Covasna and Harghita,
>immediately after December '89?

Do you REALLY expect them to do YOUR research?  After all, you were the
one alluding to it, not them.  I hope any research that might be done in
that area, will take into account those former "heavies", who left the scene
of their crimes out of their own selfinterest, not because they were forced
out for simply being ethnic Romanians.

>I'm affraid that Hungarian sources of
>information won't be very helpful for this purpose.

Interesting.  You don't have that kind of caution when it comes to
Romanian sources saying things about Hungarians.

>  OTOH, it would help
>understanding why Vatra became so popular in that timeframe.

Huh?  This needs a bit of explanation, I think.

>This kind of actions are reprovable, no matter the nationalities of the
>people involved, but turning them into cases of anti-Magyar persecution
>isn't a very honest practice, either.

I don't even know how could anybody assume such tactics from Gigi!

Joe

Warren Lavallee ) wrote:
:                                 RESULT
:          unmoderated group soc.culture.hungarian fails 157:91

: There were 157 YES votes and 91 NO votes, for a total of 248 valid votes.
: There were 6 abstains and 4 invalid ballots.

: For group passage, YES votes must be at least 2/3 of all valid (YES and NO)
: votes.   There also must be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.

Finally, the results are here.   It was a close call with a little over 
30 more NO's than needed, but with 248 valid votes that's still a healthy 
> 10% safety margin.    But now we need to find new topics to fill up 
the void left after the imminent departure of magyar vs. hungarian name-war.

How'bout all those foreigners in Magyarorsza'g?   I just talked to some 
tourists today and it appears to me that magyars in HU don't like the 
current situation very much.   They talked about the ukran maffia, the 
various peddlers, and all the illegal aliens doing "black work" (work 
under the table).   Interestingly enough, they had the best opinion 
about Romanians because unlike some others, they came to work, not to 
commit crime, and they're willing to work for a very low wage.

In article >,  <Anonymous> wrote:

>"The U.S. used its U.N. veto for the first time in five years to kill a
>Security Council resolution calling on the Israeli government to rescind its
>expropriation of primarily Arab land in East Jerusalem."
>
>Does it mean that U.S. is contradicting itself? Or is just a political
>"double
>morality"? If yes, why? Who gets the benefits? 
>
>I would be interested in your opinions, especially from Israel and U.S.: 
>
>- Do you believe, Israeli government is right?
>- Or is the Security Council (with exception of U.S.) just biased against
>Israel?
>
>Please, no flames!!!!
>
>Thanks


  Jerusalem is a point of dispute between the Arabs and the Israelis.
  This is nothing new.

  The Arabs and Israel are negotiating their differences.  THIS is new.

  On Jerusalem, Arafat ran straight to the UN and demanded that the UN
  FORCE Israel to give him what he wants.  This is the old way of doing
  things.  The NY Times pointed out this classical Arafat behavior.

  The ONLY place in the world where local real estate disputes are 
  sent to the UN for discussion is Israel.  Vast stretches of land
  displacing (and killing) enormous numbers of people in other locales
  go unremarked but empty, sandy hills outside Jerusalem or sometimes
  individual buildings in Israel are cause for UN resolutions and US
  vetoes!  Amazing!

  With it's veto, the US was saying that UN resolutions and condemnations
  are not part of the peace process.  If you have a problem, fix it
  yourselves.  The US wasn't at all pleased with Rabin's decisions.
  The veto reflected the US displeasure with Arafat's attempt to 
  strong-arm Israel into submission.

  Kapish?

-- 
Jake Livni                             "How many times must the cannonball fly
 - note new address             Before it's forever banned?"
My opinions only - employer has no opinions

In >  () writes:

>In article >, Dan Pop > wrote
:
>>
>>Could you also do some research about the Romanians who were forced to
>>leave their jobs and their homes in the counties Covasna and Harghita,
>>immediately after December '89?
>
>Do you REALLY expect them to do YOUR research?  After all, you were the
                      ^^^^
I thought Olivier was a single person, not an organization :-)

>one alluding to it, not them.  I hope any research that might be done in
>that area, will take into account those former "heavies", who left the scene
>of their crimes out of their own selfinterest, not because they were forced
>out for simply being ethnic Romanians.

I was referring to people whose only guilt was to be Romanians in a
region with a Magyar majority.  I don't care about the big commies and
I don't think they left the area.
>
>>  OTOH, it would help
>>understanding why Vatra became so popular in that timeframe.
>
>Huh?  This needs a bit of explanation, I think.

I don't think so.  Persecuted Romanians and Romanians who feared similar
persecutions in the areas controlled by the Magyars saw Vatra as the
(only) organization that could protect them.
>
>>This kind of actions are reprovable, no matter the nationalities of the
>>people involved, but turning them into cases of anti-Magyar persecution
>>isn't a very honest practice, either.
>
>I don't even know how could anybody assume such tactics from Gigi!

I don't think Funar can fire anybody in Cluj.  If he could, all the
Magyars would be jobless by now :-)  But I suspect that the city hall
staff has been purged.  Somebody knows for sure?

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

Crossposted to :
control,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.maghreb,soc.culture.magyar

Why us, Lord, why us ??????

Gabor

To Mr. Devon Wright, :


                        _         FUCK YOU        _
                       |_|                       |_|
                       | |         /^^^\         | |
                      _| |_      (| "o" |)      _| |_
                    _| | | | _    (_---_)    _ | | | |_
                   | | | | |' |    _| |_    | `| | | | |
                   |          |   /     \   |          |
                    \        /  / /(. .)\ \  \        /
                      \    /  / /  | . |  \ \  \    /
                        \  \/ /    ||Y||    \ \/  /
                         \__/      || ||      \__/
                                   () ()
                                   || ||
                                  ooO Ooo


Tamás

Major French Magazine Acknowledges Auschwitz Gas Chamber Fraud

One of France's most influential and reputable magazines, L'Express, now 
acknowledges that "everything is false" about the Auschwitz "gas 
chamber" that for decades has been shown to tens of thousands of 
tourists yearly.

"Auschwitz: The Memory of Evil," a lengthy article by journalist and 
historian Eric Conan, a dedicated anti-revisionist, appears in the 
January 19-25, 1995, issue, pages 54-73 (and in the Jan. 26 
international edition). L'Express is a liberal large-circulation weekly 
news magazine, similar in
format to Time or Newsweek.

L'Express also reports that, after a five-year battle among the 
"experts," Polish president Lech Walesa has decided that the new, 
revised number of dead to be inscribed on the Birkenau monument will be 
1,500,000. (For years the monument proclaimed 4,000,000 Auschwitz 
deaths.)

Generally speaking, writes Conan, there have been many obvious 
falsifications in the Auschwitz and Birkenau camp sites. Stefan 
Wilkanowicz, vice-president of the International Committee of the Polish 
government's Auschwitz State Museum (and director of an influential 
Polish Catholic periodical), says:

     The biggest blunders have been rectified but the principal 
discussions are never-ending and far from being settled. I can even say 
that essential debates, distressing, sometimes unexpected, are only 
 of the 70s, Robert Faurisson exploited those falsifications all the 
better because at that time the Museum officials balked at admitting 
them. An American revisionist [David Cole] has just shot a video in the 
gas chamber (still presented as authentic): one may see him questioning 
the visitors with his "revelations" [Emphasis added.]

In spite of this, Conan goes on to report, there are no plans to alter 
anything there. With regard to the famous "gas chamber," a staff member 
of the Museum directors' office, Krystyna Oleksy, says: "For the time 
being we are going to leave it in the present state, and not give any 
specifics to the visitors. It is too complicated. We'll see later on."

Victory for Revisionism

This feature article in a leading French magazine is a great victory for 
Holocaust revisionism. On a key point, L'Express now acknowledges, the 
revisionists have been right all along.

In fact, the magazine concedes a point that revisionists have been 
legally penalized for making. Dr. Robert Faurisson, Europe's foremost 
revisionist scholar, was heavily fined after repeating it on numerous 
occasions during his "thought crime" trials in France. (Will the French 
government now prosecute L'Express magazine and journalist Conan for 
their revisionist Holocaust views?)

In May 1992 a German court fined David Irving 10,000 marks (about 
$6,000) for publicly saying what L'Express now openly admits. (See: 
"Irving Fined $6,000 in German 'Gas Chamber' Trial," IHR Newsletter, 
July-Aug. 199 2, pp. 3-4.)

The court punished the British historian because he had told a Munich 
meeting in April 1990 that the structure in Auschwitz that has been 
portrayed for decades to tourists as an extermination gas chamber is a 
phony reconstruction ("Attrappe"), just like the one at Dachau.

Irving was found guilty of thus "disparaging the memory of the dead," a 
crime in Germany that effectively applies only to Jewish victims. In the 
case the Judge refused to consider any of the evidence presented by 
Irving's attorneys, including a plea to permit Dr. Franciszek Piper, 
Senior Curator and archives director of the Auschwitz State Musueum, to 
testify in the case.

Faurisson's Comment

Dr. Faurisson comments on Conan's article:

     Clearly, the Auschwitz propagandists are at a loss. Oleksy's 
statement is an important vindication of the revisionist position. Every 
visitor of the Auschwitz "gas chamber" should confront the guides (or, 
if possible, Museum official s) with these sentences by Oleksy.

     During a September 1992 interview with American revisionist David 
Cole, Auschwitz Museum Curator Piper said, "so now this gas chamber [at 
Auschwitz I] is very similar to this one which existed  in 1941-1942." ;

     As Conan knows, already in 1976 I demonstrated the falsehood of 
this entire story by questioning Museum official Jan Machalek, and by 
finding in the Auschwitz Museum files original plans clearly showing 
that, in fact, the alleged "gas chamber&q uot; was, between October 7, 
1941, and August 31, 1943, a room with a single entrance where dead 
bodies awaiting cremation were stored.

     If Museum officials now wish to rebuild the room as it was during 
the war, they will have to fill in the south-east doorway. After doing 
so, though, they would no longer be able to explain how the alleged 
victims entered the "gas chamber" for gassing. I do not think the 
officials would dare contend that the victims entered by way of the door 
of the ovens roo m.

     For details on these points, see what I published in Serge Thion's 
1980 book V=8Erit=8E historique ou v=8Erit=8E politique? La question des 
chambres =88 gaz, pp. 316-317. I have also repeatedly mentioned the st ory 
of that "reconstructed" gas chamber in The Journal of Historical Review 
(see, for instance, Winter 1981 issue, p. 335),  as well as during the 
1985 and 1988 Z=9Fndel trials in Toronto (see, for instance, 1985 Trial, 
Transcript , pp. 2364-2366). Even as early as 1968, Olga Wormser-Migot 
wrote in her book Le Syst=8Fme concentrationnaire nazi (p. 157) that the 
Auschwitz I camp was "without a gas chamber." In 1985, Raul Hilberg 
stated under oath during t he first Z=9Fndel trial in Toronto (Transcript, 
p. 774), and Pierre Vidal-Naquet wrote in L'Allemagne nazie et le 
g=8Enocide juif (pp. 510, 516, n. 94), what Franciszek Piper said to Cole 
in 1992. Jean-Claude Pressac told the same sto ry in his 1989 book, 
Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers (pp. 108, 123, 
133).

     In his L'Express article, Conan mentions Jean-Claude Pressac's1993 
book, Les Cr=8Ematoires d'Auschwitz. Among the fantastic number of 
"dossiers" and articles recently published in French newspapers and 
magazines in connection with the 50th anniversary of thecamp's 
liberation, this article may perhaps be the only one tomention that 
book. Pressac's amb ivalence has become an embarrassment for the 
"exterminationists." For instance, his estimate in Les Cr=8Ematoires 
d'Auschwitz (1993) of total Auschwitz deaths was 775,000 (rounded up to 
800,000), and in the 1994 German edition he further reduced this to 
between 630,000 and 710,000 (of whom, he asserts, 470,000 to 550,000 
were "gassed" Jews).

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------
For the current catalog, with a complete listing of books and audio and 
video tapes, send one dollar to:

Institute For Historical Review
Post Office Box 2739
Newport Beach, California 92659
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------------------------------------
Send all questions and comments to 

The .44 Magnum Doughnut wrote:
> 
> Edwin David Latham writes:
> > >
> > > > People who desire capital punishment are generally mentally
> > > > disturbed.
> > >
> > > Horseshit. People who desire capital punishment see it as a means
> > > to deterrence.
> >
> > Actually, both of you are right. But the deterrent effect of the
> > threat of punishment is dependent on a long chain of ifs:

----snip----

> > There are many who have broken that chain. And many others who
> > thought or hoped that they could break it. And committed further
> > offences attempting to do so. Which is to say, the threat of
> > punishment *caused* criminal acts. You'll have to straighten
> > yourself out on this; the real motivation for punishment is
> > revenge.
> >
> > >             Problem is the goddamn bleeding heart turds like
> > > yourself prevent timely enforcement of sentences and the
> > > deterrence factor is diluted. appeal appeal appeal whine whine
> > > whine.
> >
> > Wrong. The real problem with the deterrence theory is that the
> > chain of ifs is too easily broken. And the main reason for that
> > is corruption in the "justice" system.
>
> You are agreeing with me here and you just don't know it cause you're 
> a thicke Roo.

Heh, Heh. Don't jump the gun, Doe.

I agree that there is a deterrence factor and that it is diluted by
failures in the system.

But the failures in the system are not due to bleeding hearts and
appeals. They are due to dirty and incompetent police, prosecutors,
witnesses, judges, juries; and to compounded criminality.

And note what I said above: "both of you are right". Have you worked
that out yet?

> > > Case in point, drug offenders are hung within one week after
> > > conviction in Singapore. No appeals. End result, there is no
> > > drug problem in Singapore. I suspect that murder convictions
> > > are dealt with in the same manner.
>
> > You just shot yourself in the foot, Doe Nut.
> >
> > If there's no drug problem, how can they be killing drug offenders?
> > If there are drug offenders, how effective is this deterrent?
>
> My statement re: Singapore clearly addresses the 'volume of incidence'
> issue. Naturally, it is not 100% effective. The stupidity of the human
> race knows no bounds. Case in point, people living in OddstrayliaHell(TM).

You said "there is no drug problem in Singapore". "No drug problem"
is not the same as "a reduced drug problem". Backing off?

How much other crime in Singapore (or Usa for that matter) is committed
by drug offenders trying to avoid the consequences at law?

> > > > There is no way that watching another person die does anything
> > > > to
> > > > help that condition.
> > >
> > > Oh, I don't know about that. People say I'm crazy all the time,
> > > and the thought of several high tonnage air-bursts over London
> > > sounds positively medicinal.
> 
> > Sounds medicinal to *you*. Doesn't cure you though. 
> 
> Didn't expect it too, but the thought of repeated applications is
> always desirable.

Now it's only desirable. Backing off again, Doe.

Ned

That is what fuels PRM and PUNR in Romania. Those who refuse to admit
the existence of the Hungarian revisionism are no way better than
those who tend to overestimate it.

Constantin Donea

 (Dan Pop) wrote:
>
> 
>        HUNGARIANS IN THE WEST CALL FOR TRANSYLVANIAN SELF-DETERMINATION
> 
>                                   [Page: E252]
> 

Tocmai ma chinuiam sa gasesc o metoda pentru a posta acest document 
in toata maretia lui, cind iata un altul a fost mai Roman decit mine.
Vreau sa adaug ca aceasta infama piesa a fost discutata de un oarecare 
"Onorabil" Dorman, Congressman , in House of Representatives dintr-un 
"sincer si nepartinitor" interes de-a rezolva situatia Tiganilor, 
Romanilor, Germanilor si de ce nu a Ungurilor din Romania.

"Curat murdar coane' Fanica" ar zice ILC. Acestia domnilor sint
"simpaticii nostrii adversari de pe scr" niste mite blinde care
nu vor decit drepturi pentru minoritati nici cum altceva. 

Pentru cei ce vor sa vada minunatia adresa:
http://thomas.loc.gov/
acolo selectati indexul celui de-al 104 lea Congres si din index selectati 
Romania - apoi minunatia!!

Nu ma obosesc sa scriu in Engleza cred ca ungurii ce pretind ca nu stiu 
Romaneste sint niste farsori deci pot citi prea bine mesajul.

Consider ca nu mai merita sa corespondam civilizat cu astfel de oameni.
Cred ca ar fi mai bine sa ii ignoram total, sa nu mai raspundem la cine
a fost primul in Transilvania ci pur si simplu sa spunem:

E A NOASTRA, DE LUAT NU PREA AVETI CUM CA DATORIA EXTERNA A 
CIVILIZATEI UNGARII VA VA TRANSFORMA RAPID INTR-UN MEXIC (DAR 
FARA AMERICANI IN AJUTOR) SI DE NU VA AJUNG DREPTURILE 
GRANITA E DESCHISA.

Thanks, bro...

----------------------------------------------------------------------
     >"JELIKO" > wrote:
     >
     >Cristian writes:
     > 
     >>BUT, a clearly dehining factor was religious affiliation - 
     >>especially after the decree of 1366 issued under Charles Robert of 
     >>Anjou in which it is specified that nobles and 
     >
     >
     >Well I could understand that Charles Robert would have been pissed at 
     >the Wallachians for his defat, but it would have been very difficult 
     >for him to issue a decree in 1366 unless he came back to haunt them.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     oops, got me there - it was Louis I alright.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >The dcree which is supposed to be by Louis I (the great) is cited in 
     >a decree by Sigismund from 1428. Even that is strangly not available 
     >in the Hungarain Archives only a rather recent a to my knowledge 
     >questionable pedigree copy is used. The supposed decree is even more 
     >suspicious by its assignement to someone else.
     >but anyway, 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     hmm, nice try...;-)  
     
     but let's dwell more on the decree issued on july 20th, 1366.
     
     during the reign of Louis I, the catholic clergy and the nobles, 
     perhaps pushed into this direction from the vatican as well, started 
     taking various measures against the people of the orthodox faith 
     (mainly romanians), whom they labeled as "schismatics" (ie. not 
     adhering to the catholic doctrine).  
     
     on july 20th, 1366, orders were issued for the arrest of all 
     "schismatic" priests in Cuvin and Claras counties.  another measure, 
     probably issued the same year, prohibited all people who were not 
     catholic from holding any noble titles (and hence, the right to land 
     possessions) in the county of Sebes.  
     
     the result of these measures was that many romanian nobles converted 
     to catholicism in order to keep their privileges and, as a result, 
     were assimilated in the magyar aristocracy.  for example, noble 
     families such as Corvin, Dragfy, Banfi, Maylath, Mihai Csaki, Barcsai, 
     Kendefi, etc. were of romanian descent and, religiously magyarized.  
     as a consequence, romanians were deprived of their leaders and the 
     only ones keeping to the orthodox faith were the peasants, who had 
     very limited rights within the feudal system, anyway.  
     
     however, other nobles such as voievod Bogdan of Maramures decided to 
     keep his faith and therefore, moved from transylvania to moldova with 
     his court and a large number of servants and loyalists.  a document 
     issued (under king Louis again) on february 2nd, 1365, states that 
     Bogdan and his sons "passed over in secret" from Maramures to 
     Moldavia.  the same event is documented in Chronicon Dubnicense 
     (edited by Florianus, p.191) as well, and who also gives a hint to the 
     numbers of people involved in that exodus:
     
     "Huius [Ludovici] eciam tempore Bogdan voyvoda Vlachorum de 
     Maramorisio, coadunatis sibi Wolachis eiusdem districtus, in terram 
     Moldavia clandestine recessit."
     
     in english:
     
     "in the time of Louis, Bogdan, voievod of the Romanians in Maramures, 
     gathered together the Romanians in those parts and crossed in secret 
     into Moldavia."  
     
     Also, to these people we can add the ones that follow with Dragos from 
     Maramures as well.  Hence, a large movement of romanians from 
     Maramures ocurred and is documented.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >the extant original royal decrees from the 1360 to 1400 time span  
     >show establishment of Orthodox monasteries and inheritance of estates 
     >not only by Orthodox kenezes but evn by the Orthodox priests members 
     >of those families. (see the Documanta Vallachorum for each year's 
     >documents)...[text deleted]... S.Papacostea tried to ascribe the 
     various church persons >tirades into an "official" royal policy, but 
     the factual information >does not support that theory.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     it may be true true that orthodox monasteries were built, but mostly 
     for the peasants.  since the nobles needed the serfs to work their 
     land, it was obviously in their interest to keep them there.  it is 
     safe to assume that if the religious persecutions took such a 
     dimension (as to forbid the building of any worship centers for the 
     orthodox peasants), most of them would have probably have left - and 
     then, it would have been difficult to replace them with magyar and 
     saxon peasants because the romanian ones were quite numerous.  
     remember, the orthodox religion was only TOLERATED - and this term 
     alone does hardly imply equal rights.  
     
     as far as the innacuracy of an "official royal policy towards the 
     non-catholic", we have the example with good ole' king Louis I and his 
     decree above. :-)
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
      
     >>Bogdan, later Moldovan voevode, had to leave maramures with a lot of
     >>and, i am sure he was not the only one.  therefore, a move out of 
     >>transylvania by a lot of romanian inhabitants is very likely.
     --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
     
     and here are some more documented events of romanian out-migration 
     from transylvania.
     
     as early as the XIII-th century, a number of transylvanian romanians 
     spread out to the north and north-west, specifically to Moravia, 
     Silesia, and Poland.  specifically, romanian names of places and 
     persons appear in the 13, 14, and 15th century deeds in the Nitra 
     region of central Moravia, in the northern Carpathians around the 
     river Ung, and in the former counties of Szepes (Zips), Zemplen, and 
     Saros.  documents show 3 great waves of romanian emigration from 
     northern Hungary and Transylvania to Poland between 1438 and 1570. 
     
     the first wave occurred betweeen 1438 and 1478 when 71 settlements 
     were founded in Poland according to "Romanian laws and customs" ("jus 
     et consuetudo Valachorum"). 
     
     the second wave took place between 1492 and 1500, where 14 settlements 
     were founded in Poland as well.
     
     the third wave occurred between 1508 and 1550, when 123 settlements 
     were founded in central and eastern Galicia, in areas around Sanok, 
     Przemysl, Sambor, Lwow, Skole, and Halicz.  specifically, the romanian 
     peasants that moved to Galicia came from the comitats of 
     Bistrita-Nasaud, Maramures, Satmar, Salaj, Bihor, as well as 2 
     comitats beyond the Tisa, Ugocea and Bereg.
     
     This information can be found in:
     
      Nistor, I - Rumanische Wanderungen aus Siebenburgen, Bucharest, 1941, 
     p. 145.
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>1. the more estimates the better.
     >>2. estimates should be considered within a certain span of time, and 
     >>   see if they follow a logical pattern, taking historical events >> 
     >>   that may alter this pattern into consideration.
     >>   3. estimates should be scrutinized, on a case-by-case basis and 
     >>      in as much as possible, for reliability.
     > 
     >So it appears we have two available info contemporary to those days 
     >the good Voyvode's letter and Verancsics's letter. 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     well, i happen to find some more :-)  so let's see what we've got:
     
     1. the good and well-informed voievode says "he can count on the 1/3 
     romanians in transylvania".  well, with the risk of being picky, did 
     he mean "on the 1/3" or "on a 1/3"? - it's a difference, you know.;-)
     
     2.  anton verancsics letter:  he mentions that:
     
     "transylvania is inhabited by 3 nations:  the magyars, the saxons, and 
     the szeklers, to whom, we have to add the romanians whose number 
     equals the one of all the three nations combined".  tha is, 50%.
     
     IN ADDITION:
     
     3.  the italian Giovannandrea Gromo, a colonel in the transylvanian 
     army, describes that the romanians are numerous and found all over the 
     country.  specifically, he refers to the Banat as "Vallachia 
     Cisalpina" or "Valachia Citeriore", and distinguished from the 
     "Vallachia Transalpina" (proper Vallachia).  Therefore, he hints to 
     the fact that the romanians were majoritary in the Banat.
     
     4.  2 reports by jesuit priests dated 1584, and who mention that the 
     "province" they are in the process of organizing is a "Provincia 
     Vallachica", and that the cities of Caransebes and Lugoj "sonno della 
     Vallachia".
     
     5.  another italian, a jesuit who lived in transylvania, Antonio 
     Possevino, mentions in his work titled "Transilvania" that more than 
     70 villages of the region of Fagaras are exclusively romanian and that 
     they can even be found among szeklers.
     
     6.  a french traveller, J.J. Bongars, who crossed transylvania going 
     towards Constantinople, mentions that romanian is spoken there rather 
     than hungarian.
     
     7.  towards the middle of the XVIIth century, the transylvanian Jean 
     Troster and the german Conrad Hiltebrand mention that the romanians, 
     although they have no political power, outnumber all the other 
     nationalities there.
     
     SO, here we have a few more estimates.  obviously, it's very difficult 
     to ascertain numbers BUT, following convergence-in-information rules, 
     we can estimate that the romanians were at least half the population 
     in transylvania in the XVIth century.
     
     also, taking into consideration the massive movements of romanians to 
     Moravia, Silesia, and Poland (as shown above) at the end of the XVth 
     and during the XVIth centuries, a decrease in romanian population in 
     transylvania (as accounted by verancsics) is also plausible.  
     
     as an observation, if we count the good vallachian voievode on-the-fly 
     comment on the transylvanian population, we should AT LEAST consider 
     the comments from the fellows above that actually LIVED THERE - i 
     would even consider their accounts more reliable.
     
     at any rate, according to the first census ever done (i'm not sure, 
     but i think it was sometime in the XVIIIth century), the romanians 
     were in clear majority.
     
     -cristian

In article >  writes:
>That is what fuels PRM and PUNR in Romania. Those who refuse to admit
>the existence of the Hungarian revisionism are no way better than
>those who tend to overestimate it.

Where could you have seen "Hungarian" revisionism there? This was
neither "Hungarian" from Hungary nor (more importantly) from TS, this
was just a group of old emigrates, the same kind that we see saying
there is no democracy at all and no valid constitution because they are
all still Communist there... They represent a negligeable % of opinion
in the real country. Wasn't it clear for everybody?
-- Olivier

In article >, 423236.426639416(Your Lifetime
Health Planner) wrote:

>         THE KEY TO ORGANIZING YOUR HEALTH RECORDS

Would you please keep this junk out of this and other newsgroups where it
does not belong.

You'r only going to make people angry, and for that reason they will not
do business with you. I for one never will.

-- 
S.J.Mihaly

If you don't ask questions, you don't get any answers!

----------------------------------------------------------------------
     >JELIKO" > wrote:
     > 
     >>Cristian writes:
     >> 
     >>b.  many names of villages, mountains, hills are, at base, of latin 
     >>    or slavic origin as well.  again, the magyar name versions are 
     >>    adapted from the original latin names:  Oiestea (Woyasd), river 
     >>    Telna (Chylna), mountain Suhodol (Zohodol), mountain Geaman    
     >>    (Geminus), hill Pastoreni (Pastoreu), river Bistrita >>          
     >>    (Piztercha), river Sieu (named Soyou and later, in hungarian,    
     >>    Sojo), etc. etc. 
     >>most linguists agree that such geographical names point to the 
     >>origins of the inhabitants of the respective region.  in the 
     >>examples above, we see both latin-based and slavic-based names, in 
     >>concordance with the fact that both elements can be found in the 
     >>romanian language, but not in magyar.
     >
     >Some of the above are known to be from Slavic and agreed to even by 
     >Romanian monographs. First you have to show that the name is recorded 
     >as such in Romanian Latin and then look at the derivation based on 
     >the language development that is consistent with the particular 
     >language. 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     well, i have not stated that ALL those names are latin.  some of them 
     are obviously slavic.  the romanians have adopted slavic toponymes.  
     and why not, obviously not every single area in transylvania was 
     occupied by the latin-speaking people.  there were areas with a high 
     concentration of latin-speaking folks (especially the apuseni 
     mountains, and the carpathian slopes), and areas with a high 
     concentration of slavic settlers, mostly around smaller/medium size 
     rivers, but close to the latin-speaking folks.  throughout the 3 or so 
     centuries, they co-habitated and, inevitably, they picked various 
     terms from each other, such as toponyms.  the point is that MOST 
     SLAVIC TOPONYMS IN ROMANIAN ARE IMPORTED DIRECTLY FROM SLAVIC, AND NOT 
     VIA THE MAGYAR LANGUAGE.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >As an example the early (pre 1000s) name the Hungarians used for
     >Bulgar was Nandor. There is no such meaningful name in Romanian, but 
     >in TS there are two localites named Nandru and Nandra showing 
     >derivation from Hungarian otherwise they would be *sclavus* or 
     >*schiau* as it happened in many places in Romania outside TS. 
     >Similarly the Hungaraian name for Russians is Orosz, there are two 
     >Oroszis and an Oroszfaja in TS, which have the Romanian name Urisiu 
     >and Orasiia and Orosfai again shownig that the name came into 
     >Romanian from Hungarian otherwise they would be Rusul or Rusii as in 
     >the communities formed after the Mongols when the arriving Russian 
     >communities were probably contemporary to the Romanian ones like 
     >Oroszfalu-Rusu, Oroszmezo-Rusu, Oroszfalu-Ruesti. These changes 
     >indicate not only that the names arrived in Romanian from Hungarian 
     >but that the relevant communities were already Hungarianized when the 
     >Romanian name was given. 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     of course there are toponymes that came into romanian via hungarian. 
     in the case of nandor and orosz, the magyars came into an area settled 
     with slavs, and established localities there.  and this goes also for 
     your other examples.  
     
     i have not stated that ALL TRANSYLVANIA was populated with latinized 
     people, or that they occupied every square inch of the valleys, 
     rivers, hills, etc.  my opinion is that certain areas were occupied by 
     the latin folks (especially mountaneous regions such as the apuseni, 
     the slopes of the carpathians, banat, fagaras, etc.), slavs occupied 
     other areas of lower altitude, especially small valleys and minor 
     river banks, plus there probably were also bulgars, avars, and others 
     (but in negligible numbers).  due to the centuries of co-habitation, 
     the romance language evolved and transformed, including adoption of 
     slavonic toponymes, words, and slavicized latin words - this could be 
     an explanation for the transformations from MARIS - MURES, SAMUS - 
     SOMES, etc.  the process of adopting slavic toponymes could have 
     certainly occured in regions where the latinized folks did not form a 
     majority of the sedentary population.    
     
     however, i have also read that the S (pr. sh) ending is a specific of 
     the albanian language, hence pointing to a daco-moesian connection....
     
     anyway, i don't see how your examples refute that latinized-speaking 
     people did not inhabit transylvania before the magyars....as long as 
     there are toponyms that are found in hungarian, and which are not 
     natural in that language but are of latin(ized) format.
     
     -cristian

From:  MrJanosS

I'd like to post the following information for those who are interested in
current events, news from Hungary. This is a weekly email report in
English, sent from Hungary usually Sundays or Monday mornings, depending
on what time zone you are in.

The Hungary Report is free to readers. To subscribe, send an email message
to the following Internet address:
       
     

containing (in the body of the message, not in the headers) the single
word

     subscribe

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resume).  I appreciate any help in finding a job in Hungary.  Thanks!

Sincerely,

Pamela White

In article >,  (CLARY Olivier) 
writes:
> In article >  writes:
> >That is what fuels PRM and PUNR in Romania. Those who refuse to admit
> >the existence of the Hungarian revisionism are no way better than
> >those who tend to overestimate it.
> 
> Where could you have seen "Hungarian" revisionism there? This was
> neither "Hungarian" from Hungary nor (more importantly) from TS, this
> was just a group of old emigrates, the same kind that we see saying
> there is no democracy at all and no valid constitution because they are
> all still Communist there... They represent a negligeable % of opinion
> in the real country. Wasn't it clear for everybody?
> -- Olivier

Olivier,

They call themselves "Hungarian" and talk in Hungarians' name. And I 
think that asking from the US Congress a resolution on TS is a more
serious thing than that faked "manifest". Otherwise I think you're right.

Constantin Donea

I'm presently living in Toronto but in 1991/92 I was a Rotary Exchange 
student in Budapest.  I learned a great deal of Hungarian back then, but 
have since lost most of it as a result of having no contact with Hungarians 
my own age.  Hungarian is a beautiful language and I'd like to regain at 
least some of the speaking and writing skills I once had.
If you can help me, drop me a line. It would be great if you lived in 
Toronto because I need to get my vocab back first.  Please e-mail me 
privately.  If you can't help, but know someone who can, please give them this
message.
This is very important to me in order to maintain contact with the people 
I love in Bp.
Nagyon szepen koszonom (in advance).

Kari Macknight

I am posting this ad for a friend, please, call him directly if you are 
interested - the number is listed below. Thanks.

> =======================================================================

Diplomat moves to Europe on June 5th, sells 1987 Chrysler LeBaron, 
burgundy, 2 doors, 100k mi, runs beautifully.
price - US$ 3,200.-
Contact (301)-530-7643 after 5PM (ET)

> ========================================================================
--
personal email,          mailto:
Hungarian-American list, mailto:  
WWW,                       http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard

In article >,  (Dan Pop) writes
:
> In >  (Janos S
zamosfalvi) writes:
> 
>>Dan Pop ) wrote:
>>: >
>>: >How can you explain that Romanians are so afraid of the few Magyars?
>>: >The consciousness of guilt, perchance?
>>
>>: Nope.  The memories of 1940 - 1944.
>>
>>Or the guilt of greed after WWI when they grabbed areas that have 
>>never belonged to TS, and/or had magyar majority.
> 
> Like Covasna and Harghita, right?
> 

Hi!

> How does your theory explain the existence of Romanian villages in
> Hungary?  Yeah, the Romanians were damn greedy after WWI.
  ^^^^^^^  For example: ??? (Gyula? Mehkerek? what is their "originally"
romanian name???? 

> 
> Dan

Zoli

> --
> Dan Pop
> CERN, CN Division
> Email:  
> Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland