But as the sole voice for all the Hungarian peoples (including their 
closest
relatives), wouldnt it be doing the state's DUTY offering patriation to 
these peoples.  With a population of over 10.5 million, absorbing another 
30,000
could not possibly burden the Hungarian government.  If these groups are 

Russified, it will be a loss to Hungary and Hungarian culture.  Yes, I 
know they dont look like Hungarians and don't speak a language 
intelligible to Hungarian, but their culture IS  a part of Magyar culture,
 and shouldn't be
allowed to wane in the grasp of Russia's claws.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From:  (02)

 writes:
>This is ... interesting.
>A few years ago, when I was talking with the staff at the
>Hungarian Embassy in Washington DC, I was told that all
>Hungarian women are beautiful.

 Not all at all :-) ... but it does seem to me that there's an abundance 
 of beautiful women in Hungary as compared to many other European 
 countries.

OH, MY GOD ! (CAPS ON PURPOSE)
PRIZZY BOY AGAIN, OR MAYBE I SHOULD SAY, LOVER BOY
HIMSELF !!!!
OH, THAT SWEEEEET MAGYAR "PI--A", EH BOY ?
WHAT'S THE MATTER, GETING A LITTLE TIRED IN THE LAB
CHASING QUARKS AND SUCH, OR MAYBE ARE YOU
LOOKING FOR THE INVENTION TO BRING YOU A NOBEL
PRIZE, LIKE IT DID DR. OLAH  ?
LET'S SEE, TRY THE HUNGARIAN BIONIC CLONE OF
NO OTHER THAN CICCIOLINA, OR SHOULD I SAY  ILONA ?

 Er... that may hold even with my national bias substracted. :)

NATIONAL BIAS, YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING.

ANYWAY, WE CAN ASK CRISTIAN WHEN HE GETS BACK FROM
HIS TRIP TO BUDA  AS FAR AS THE LOCAL DISHES ARE
CONCERNED.
GOT ANY SIS.. , I MEAN TIPS, PRIZZY ?

 I could name some European places where the opposite seems to be true.
 Even if you take into account that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

NO SHIT, WHERE ?

>Michael B. Holt            | 

 Btw, a proverbal suggestion for female beauty is the Polinesian Isles.  :)

YEAH, LIKE THOSE FAT LIPS ?
ALL FOUR THAT IS ! (OH, PARDON THE LANGUAGE)

WHAT ABOUT YOU GABOR ?  

 Cheers,
 Miklos Prisznyak  

ALL THE BEST !!!

ADRIAN

[CThe New York Hungarian House would be glad to cover the cost of shipping the
book collection -- or pick them up, if that's reasonable.
 
Charles Vamossy
President
Hungarian House
e-mail:  

To:  (Steven C. Scheer)
Subject: Re: Source for Hungarian wine

S >>>Subject: Source for Hungarian wines?
S >>>
S >>>I am having a REAL hard time finding a source for buying Hungarian
S >>>wines.  For some reason, the Southeast of the U.S. is not partial to
S >>>anything "exotic" and it appears that Hungarian wines fall in that
S >>>category.

S >>Try Bende and Son Salami Co. in the Chicago, IL, area. They have
S >>a number of the wines you mention, not to speak of wonderful smoked
S >>sausages and salamis (Gyulai, Teli, etc.). They take mail orders
S >>and ship promptly.

S >>Phone: 1 (708) 913-0304
S >>Fax: 1 (708) 913-0001

S >>Best Wishes,
S >>Scheer Pista

Kedves Pista,

I really appreciate your kind reply to my inquiry.  Will certainly put
it to good use.

I have been ordering my "hazi fustolt kolbasz" and "cserkesz kolbasz"
from Vegso Lajos (PorkWagon, 510 W. Jefferson, Culver, IN  46511, (219)
842-2297).

I received some useful info from a fellow in Arizona.  I am posting it
just in case someone can use it:

        American Council of Hungarian Wines
        P O Box 502
        Simsbury, CT  06092

        Contacts: Marilyn M. Martin (802) 865-1240
            or    Ferenc Auer       (203) 673-1598

I have not talked to them (just got the message), but their mere
existence pleases me.

Pista....my last "batch" of decent Hungarian wines was brought to me by
a wonderful friend who happens to live (drum roll.....) in Evansville,
Indiana.  Is it there where you are?  Since Cal and I meet several times
a year (either they drive here or we drive up there), maybe next time
when I come up there, you and I can share some nice Tokaji and some
'presso and have a chat.  BTW, I am a medical psychologist, for whatever
that's worth <G>.

Koszonettel udv.,

R˘zsa Bandi

---
 ţ QMPro 1.53 ţ DANGER! DANGER! Computer Store Ahead...Hide Wallet.

My cousin in Budapest died suddenly and unexpectedly of a heart 
attack on May 20th.  I talked
to his wife on the phone yesterday (June 6th) and she indicated that his
funeral was scheduled by the "authorities" on June 9th, 20 days after his
death.  This feels terrible to me, but she seemed to take it as a 
"normal" thing.

Can someone explain this delay to me?  Is this bureaucracy, or something else?
This is to be a completely secular service, so no religious circumstances
are involved.

Any help you can give would be appreciated. I can't change things, but maybe
I can understand it better.

Thank you.

Robert Weisz
Illinois, USA

Hello!  It will probably work although Hungary's telephone system quite
archaic.  I suggest you do a voice connect first.  
Kellemes Vakaciot kivanok!!

Rick                       

I'm sorry I wasn't aware of this sooner!  The Tisza Egyuttes is here? 
Please provide more info. if possible!! Thank you.

Rick               

In article > Adrian > 
writes:
>- When I was 6 years old in Sf. Ghorghe visiting relatives the Bread
>store attendant refused to sell me bread.
>- MY cousin while visiting Ghorghieni with his father where refused
>information about a room available at a local mountain hotel.
>- Another cousin with her parents in TG. Mures where refused service
>at a Ice cream vending place.
>- My aunt was refused service in a Pharmacy in Tusnad.
> All this incidents were caused because the Secui refused to speak 
>Romanian.

Though prejudiced people are found in all communities, I still notice
that in a certain area it is normal for children not to know a word of
Romanian, so this can be the case for some uneducated adults too (for who
often only education, especially specialisations existing only out of
the area, can bring a reasonably good knowledge of the State language...)

So when is it "refusal to speak Romanian" and when is it ignorance of Romanian?
How can you know if you do not understand what is going on in Hungarian?...
you can know only if the attendant later shows he knows some Romanian.
- did you see as a boy that there is bread, did you show it as what you want,
  and did they say no? (same for the ice-cream and the medecine)
- did the hotel do more than just show minimal goodwill for giving info and
  for sign language? (like many good Romanian staff in hotels...)
- did the Romanians make communication efforts like in a foreign country,
  speaking slowly, showing things, making gestures etc?

-- Olivier

> I'm sorry I wasn't aware of this sooner!  The Tisza Egyuttes is here? 
> Please provide more info. if possible!! Thank you.
> 
> Rick               
> 
Where?  Tisza Egyuttes is in Washington D.C. suburbs, & we have Tanchaz 
on this Saturday in College Park, Maryland (just accross University of 
Maryland); & performance the following day in Silver Spring, MD, at 
the Montgomery County Ethnic Heritage Festival, at 3:30 in the afternoon.

Hope this will help.

Udvozol,

Arpad Fabian Kovacs of SzekelyFold
Tisza Ensemble, Inc.

--
WWW                : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~kovacs
personal email     : 

Adrian ) wrote:

: Ok, you guys, before you build this "Hungarian" genius a statue in Buda,
: let's pause for a moment.
: The name Olah sounds familiar.  Isn't this what you guys used to call
: Romanian peasants in Transylvania ? 

Olah is a fairly common gipsy name.   It can also be used to describe 
people [any people] who is from TS.

: Maybe this guy is not ethnic Hungarian after all !!!

Ethnicity is not necessarily determined by some faraway ancestors.  
My great-great-grandfather is from Germany.   Does this change my 
ethnicity?   Not at all.

: He is probably of Romanian peasant decent and kept his keen sense of
: inovation.

If he were a "Romanian peasant de[s]cent" he'd speak Romanian. 

: Why this fascination with transforming organic molecules?

: It is well known that Romanian peasants in Transylvania do consume
: a lot of animal fat ( called "slana"), but somehow they do not have
: problems with clogged arteries as other people consuming as much, like
: for example Hungarians around Budapest and Szeget.

These problem is universal to virtually all urban populations
where fat consumption is a problem.

Hi,
I have received this message, and the person kindly asked me to forward this
information. I am receiving messages like this almost every week.
Do not you think we should set up a soc.genealogy.hungarian group,
where maybe experts could help all those Hungarians searching for their roots?
Please, if you have any information on this fellow's relatives, help him.
Send the mail directly to :
Tibor Szilagyi


Take care,
Gotthard
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Hello Gotthard
>
>My father name was Szilagyi Tivadar born 20/july/1922 to the parents of
>Szilagyi Istvan and Csiszar Etelka born in shire of Komarom ;city Kisber
>My father also had a brother
>My mothers name was Dara Matild who also had a sister by the name of Dara
>Angela. I was born in Budapest 25/march/1953
>Thank you for your support if you might be able to tell me where i can find
>out information on genealogy in Hungary I would appriciate it.
>I live in Australia Victoria and I am a long way from my home town
>
>From Tibor


--
Hungarian-American list, mailto:
WWW,                       http://www.glue.umd.edu/~gotthard

Szervusz, kedves barataim!


I am a television graphic designer for an NBC affiliate in Tampa, Florida. 
I am travelling to Hungary in September.  I am a first generation 
Hungarian and speak some of the language and am taking lessons to refresh 
my knowledge.  I am interested in moving closer to my relatives in Hungary 
and possibly finding work specifically in Budapest in my field.  If 
anyone has any leads or suggestions on how to conduct a 
job search in broadcasting (names, addresses, phone numbers, etc.), please 
contact me ASAP.  Please reply to Blue Danube c/o 

ezer koszonom!

In article > ARIEL, vondiene writes:
>ou might also wish to research the Bathory connection to the Hapsburgs,
>especially regarding certain financial dealings/loans made to the Hapsburgs
>which could not be paid back.  Supposedly quite a bit of the evidence against
>Erzsebet was manufactured.

This is very unlikely. The Habsburgs were catastophically in debt,
thats true, but they owed not only to the whole Hungarian aristoc-
racy but the Austrian and Czech as well and also  to some foreign
banks.
Báthory Erzsébet's claimed 17 000 Ft in the name of his husband
from the Kings' court. It is a small sum.  Just for comparison: one
of her relatives, Thurzó Györgyné spent more than 27 000 Ft for
her son's wedding in 1618.

Tamás

: Well as a matter of fact a Romanian guy, sorry I can't think of his name, 
: it is perhaps Andrei somthing or another (I think he is the one who lives 
: in New Orleans and has an NPR slot on All Things Considered) just wrote a 
: book about her. A friend of mine read the prepublished book for review and 
: razzed me about it. Maybe it is intended to derail the Dracula pride, hey 
: anything that brings the tourist dollars.
: is useful.
 I have seen this guy's movie in New York, ( in which he traveled across the 
 US), now I want my 8 dollars back !!!!
 Anyways this countess Bathory, she sounds like a lesbian from hell.
 Cheers
 Andras
 a Caddie) I want my 8 dollars back !

----------------------------------------------------------------------
     >"JELIKO" > wrote:
     >Message-ID: >
     >
     >Cristian writes:      
     >
     >>but let's dwell more on the decree issued on july 20th, 1366.
     >>during the reign of Louis I, the catholic clergy and the nobles, 
     >>perhaps pushed into this direction from the vatican as well, started 
     >>taking various measures against the people of the orthodox faith 
     >>(mainly romanians), whom they labeled as "schismatics" (ie. not 
     >>adhering to the catholic doctrine).  
     >      
     >The interest in the schismatics did not start from the orthodox 
     >religion but from the Bogumil problems. There aer no specific 
     >pressures against the Orthodox church from Louis who tried to 
     >continue the policy of controlling the Bosnian area, [text deleted]
     >I have great difficulty with the indicated persecution in T/S at the 
     >time because during that time more stone or brick (permanentZZ) 
     >churches were built in TS than in Wallachia or Moldavia. So even on a 
     >comparative basis the oppression does not seem to have existed.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     but yet, the decree mentioned by me was issued and, as i documented in 
     the previous post, caused movements of romanian orthodox out of 
     transylvania (previous post info below):
     
     >on july 20th, 1366, orders were issued for the arrest of all 
     >"schismatic" priests in Cuvin and Caras counties.  another measure, 
     >probably issued the same year, prohibited all people who were not 
     >catholic from holding any noble titles (and hence, the right to land 
     >possessions) in the county of Sebes.  
     
     >the result of these measures was that many romanian nobles converted 
     >to catholicism in order to keep their privileges and, as a result, 
     >were assimilated in the magyar aristocracy.  for example, noble 
     >families such as Corvin, Dragfy, Banfi, Maylath, Mihai Csaki, 
     >Barcsai, Kendefi, etc. were of romanian descent and, religiously 
     >magyarized.  as a consequence, romanians were deprived of their 
     >leaders and the only ones keeping to the orthodox faith were the 
     >peasants, who had very limited rights within the feudal system, 
     >anyway.  
     
     >however, other nobles such as voievod Bogdan of Maramures decided to 
     >keep his faith and therefore, moved from transylvania to moldova with 
     >his court and a large number of servants and loyalists.  
     
     maybe this was not a consistent policy of King Louie, but certainly 
     became after the year the decree was issued (1366).  
     
     as to your allegation that more orthodox churches were built during 
     the same king's reign than in moldova and valachia, please point out 
     to references where I can find such a comparative information.  and 
     also, were these built BEFORE or AFTER the decree mentioned above.
     
     my initial point was that MOVEMENT OF ROMANIANS OUT OF TRANSYLVANIA 
     STARTING IN THE 13th-14th CENTURIES OCCURED.  for religious or other 
     reasons.
     --------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >Well I am familiar with Sebes as a name but not as a county and which 
     >counties were called "Cuvin" or "Claras" in those days or at any time 
     >since then? Are we talking about TS? Where did you get this info?
     --------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     sorry for misspelling, it was CARAS county.  the information was 
     extracted from:
     
     Transylvania in the history of Romania, by Constantin Giurescu (p.49), 
     and it is published in english as well.
     --------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>the result of these measures was that many romanian nobles converted 
     >>to catholicism in order to keep their privileges and, as a result, 
     >>were assimilated in the magyar aristocracy.  for example, noble 
     >>families such as Corvin, Dragfy, Banfi, Maylath, Mihai Csaki, 
     >>Barcsai, Kendefi, etc. were of romanian descent and, religiously 
     >>magyarized.
     > 
     >As I stated before several members of the newly  ennobled families 
     >were Orthodox priests so the requirements for conversion assumed by 
     >you is not correct. Naturally some folks are more Roman than the 
     >Romans but that happens everywhere.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     please specify the reference and extant records mentioning romanian 
     orthodox priests ennobled the proof that they were allowed to keep 
     their religion.  my sources of information contradict your statement.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>Also, to these people we can add the ones that follow with Dragos 
     >>from Maramures as well.  Hence, a large movement of romanians from 
     >>Maramures ocurred and is documented.
     >I gave you half a dozen large incoming migrants for the time period. 
     >One out does not compensate. There were undoubtably opportunities 
     >elsewhere also. Please remember that the times just followed one of 
     >the major black plague epidemics and significant infighting.      
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     ok, so far i gave you references regarding the movement of voievode 
     Bogdan of Maramures with a large romanian contingent, and of Dragos 
     from the same area.  the decree of 1366 probably caused other 
     movements as well.  i will search and document other movements DURING 
     KING LOUIS REIGN when i get back.  also, i gave the following 
     reference in the previous post:
     
     >and here are some more documented events of romanian out-migration 
     >from transylvania.
     >
     >as early as the XIII-th century, a number of transylvanian romanians 
     >spread out to the north and north-west, specifically to Moravia, 
     >Silesia, and Poland.  specifically, romanian names of places and 
     >persons appear in the 13, 14, and 15th century deeds in the Nitra 
     >region of central Moravia, in the northern Carpathians around the 
     >river Ung, and in the former counties of Szepes (Zips), Zemplen, and 
     >Saros.  documents show 3 great waves of romanian emigration from 
     >northern Hungary and Transylvania to Poland between 1438 and 1570. 
     >
     >the first wave occurred betweeen 1438 and 1478 when 71 settlements 
     >were founded in Poland according to "Romanian laws and customs" ("jus 
     >et consuetudo Valachorum"). 
     >
     >the second wave took place between 1492 and 1500, where 14 
     >settlements were founded in Poland as well.
     >
     >the third wave occurred between 1508 and 1550, when 123 settlements 
     >were founded in central and eastern Galicia, in areas around Sanok, 
     >Przemysl, Sambor, Lwow, Skole, and Halicz.  specifically, the 
     >romanian peasants that moved to Galicia came from the comitats of 
     >Bistrita-Nasaud, Maramures, Satmar, Salaj, Bihor, as well as 2 
     >comitats beyond the Tisa, Ugocea and Bereg.
     >
     >This information can be found in:
     >
     >Nistor, I - Rumanische Wanderungen aus Siebenburgen, Bucharest, 1941, 
     >p. 145.
     
     
     could you please any documented events of romanian movements from 
     moldova and vallachia to transylvania:
     
     1. during good ole' king Louie reign.
     2. during other medieval time periods.
     
     let's compare the information.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >As stated above there were more Orthodox churches built in TS 
     >than in Wallachia or Moldavia so maybe yoy are claiming a "reason" 
     >for the inmigration from areas where the peasants, serfs could not 
     >worship, i.e. outside TS.:-)
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     i will claim such a reason when you document and show references to 
     how many orhtodox churches were built in transylvania DURING KING 
     LOUIS versus how many were built in moldova and vallachia.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>and here are some more documented events of romanian out-migration 
     >>from transylvania.
     >>as early as the XIII-th century, a number of transylvanian romanians 
     >>spread out to the north and north-west, specifically to Moravia, 
     >>Silesia, and Poland.  specifically, romanian names of places and 
     >>persons appear in the 13, 14, and 15th century deeds in the Nitra 
     >>region of central Moravia, in the northern Carpathians around the 
     >>river Ung, and in the former counties of Szepes (Zips), Zemplen, and 
     >>Saros.  documents show 3 great waves of romanian emigration from 
     >>northern Hungary and Transylvania to Poland between 1438 and 1570. 
     >>the first wave occurred betweeen 1438 and 1478 when 71 settlements 
     >>were founded in Poland according to "Romanian laws and customs" 
     >>("jus et consuetudo Valachorum"). 
     >>      
     >>the second wave took place between 1492 and 1500, where 14 
     >>settlements were founded in Poland as well.
     >>      
     >>the third wave occurred between 1508 and 1550, when 123 settlements 
     >>were founded in central and eastern Galicia, in areas around Sanok, 
     >>Przemysl, Sambor, Lwow, Skole, and Halicz.  specifically, the 
     >>romanian peasants that moved to Galicia came from the comitats of 
     >>Bistrita-Nasaud, Maramures, Satmar, Salaj, Bihor, as well as 2 
     >>comitats beyond the Tisa, Ugocea and Bereg.
     >>      
     >>This information can be found in:
     >>      
     >>Nistor, I - Rumanische Wanderungen aus Siebenburgen, Bucharest, 
     >>1941, p. 145.
     >
     >This is very nice, but where did Nistor get his data from? Could ypu 
     >list his original references contemporary to the days when it was 
     >supposed to occur.
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     i will after i get back from my vacation.  but if it is possible for 
     you, you may want to check yourself the above reference.
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
           
     >>2.  anton verancsics letter:  he mentions that:
     >>"transylvania is inhabited by 3 nations:  the magyars, the saxons, 
     >>and the szeklers, to whom, we have to add the romanians whose number 
     >>equals the one of all the three nations combined".  that is, 50%.
     >
     >I am not sure which math you used somevbody equal to any of the three 
     >comes out to 25% and not 50%.
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     well , i certainly used pythagoras kinda math.  i think the reason you 
     came out with 25% and not 50% is because you missed the word COMBINED 
     in my statement above:
     
     "magyars, saxons, and szeklers, to which we have to add the romanians 
     whose number equals THE ONE OF ALL THE 3 NATIONS COMBINED"
                                                      ^^^^^^^^
     so 50%, right?
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>IN ADDITION:
     >>    
     >>3.  the italian Giovannandrea Gromo, a colonel in the transylvanian 
     >>army, describes that the romanians are numerous and found all over 
     >>the country.  specifically, he refers to the Banat as "Vallachia 
     >>Cisalpina" or "Valachia Citeriore", and distinguished from the 
     >>"Vallachia Transalpina" (proper Vallachia).  Therefore, he hints to 
     >>the fact that the romanians were majoritary in the Banat.
     >
     >I would be interested in the year and source for the event.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     please hang on until next month when i get back from my vacation :-)
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>4.  2 reports by jesuit priests dated 1584, and who mention that the 
     >>"province" they are in the process of organizing is a "Provincia 
     >>Vallachica", and that the cities of Caransebes and Lugoj "sonno 
     >>della Vallachia".
     >      
     >As the saying says "it takes more swallows". The area around 
     >Caransebes and LUgoj were referred to even in Hungarian documents as 
     >having a large Romanian population. By the way, how did the Jesuits 
     >organized Turkish occupied areas? Those Turks must have been very 
     >tolerant.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     glad we agree here :-)  but beats the hell out of me how did they 
     manage to do that - the info was extracted from the same Giurescu book 
     i referenced before. 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>SO, here we have a few more estimates.  obviously, it's very 
     >>difficult o ascertain numbers BUT, following 
     >>convergence-in-information rules,  we can estimate that the 
     >>romanians were at least half the population in transylvania in the 
     >>XVIth century.
     >      
     >I'll consider that when you give references from the time of the 
     >events and not recent postulations.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     i will post a complete reference guide from a variety of sources when 
     i get back.  also, one should definitely take into consideration the 
     movements of romanians OUT OF TRANSYLVANIA that i mentioned above.--
     
     gotta catch the airport shuttle now.........
     
     -cristian
     
     ps: please mail me personally any relevant posts on the subject.

In article >,
 > wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>A few years ago, when I was talking with the staff at the
>>Hungarian Embassy in Washington DC, I was told that all
>>Hungarian women are beautiful.
>WHAT ABOUT YOU GABOR ?

Well, me like Latina women, and/or women named Pamela or Martha. Me also like 
fast food and fast cars.

Gabor

In >  (CLARY Olivier) writes:

>In article > Adrian >
 writes:
>>- When I was 6 years old in Sf. Ghorghe visiting relatives the Bread
>>store attendant refused to sell me bread.
>>- MY cousin while visiting Ghorghieni with his father where refused
>>information about a room available at a local mountain hotel.
>>- Another cousin with her parents in TG. Mures where refused service
>>at a Ice cream vending place.
>>- My aunt was refused service in a Pharmacy in Tusnad.
>> All this incidents were caused because the Secui refused to speak 
>>Romanian.
>
>Though prejudiced people are found in all communities, I still notice
>that in a certain area it is normal for children not to know a word of
>Romanian, so this can be the case for some uneducated adults too (for who
>often only education, especially specialisations existing only out of
>the area, can bring a reasonably good knowledge of the State language...)
>
>So when is it "refusal to speak Romanian" and when is it ignorance of Romanian
?
>How can you know if you do not understand what is going on in Hungarian?...
>you can know only if the attendant later shows he knows some Romanian.
>- did you see as a boy that there is bread, did you show it as what you want,
>  and did they say no? (same for the ice-cream and the medecine)
>- did the hotel do more than just show minimal goodwill for giving info and
>  for sign language? (like many good Romanian staff in hotels...)
>- did the Romanians make communication efforts like in a foreign country,
>  speaking slowly, showing things, making gestures etc?

Sorry Olivier, you're pushing your argumentation too far.  Even assuming
those people didn't understand Romanian at all (practically, an 
impossibility for someone who went to school in Romania), you don't need
to use any words to get some bread in a bread shop or some ice cream
in a place where only ice cream is sold.  The names of the drugs in a
pharmacy are the same in all languages and a hotel employee is expected
to be able to speak the languages of its usual customers.

Rejecting the obvious explanation is equivalent to burying your head in
the sand.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

----------------------------------------------------------------------
     "JELIKO" > wrote:
     >Message-ID: >
     >
     >Cristian writes:
     >
     >>well, not italians but latin-speaking people.  south slavs called 
     >>them "vlachs", but eastern slavs called them "volochs".  the fact >> 
     >>that various chroniclers mention "vlachs/volochs" in the balkans and 
     >>within the carpatho-danubian basin leaves little doubt that they 
     >>were speaking of the ancestors of the present-day romanians.
     >      
     >Well not exactly, the Hungarians even today call the Italians Olasz 
     >from Vlasi, the vl change came into being the same way as Olah from 
     >Vlah. The word itself is an interesting derivation and apparently it 
     >was used to designate people who spoke another language. The word was 
     >first used for the Celts in the form of Volcus. It is not clear 
     >whether the Goths or the Slavs started to use it for Latin speakers 
     >but it is the word used for Wallonia (French speakers by Germanic 
     >speakers) Galatians (Celtic speakers by Greeks) Welsh (Celtic 
     >speakers by Romans) and as Vlach or Wallach in the Greek and Gothic 
     >documents. The Hungarian use by Anonymus was Blacus,Blachii,Blasii 
     >and Blacorum, apparently he just could not make up his mind or 
     >possibly he tried to differentiate, who knows. Anyway in his 
     >time there were Vlachs in Transylvania, what he knew about who were 
     >there several hundred years before is another question.
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
     
     thanks for the details, but i think we're diverging from the main 
     issue.  the focal point of my statement was (and i still stand by it) 
     that, GIVEN THE GEOGRAPHICAL CONTEXT (across the carpathians) in which 
     Nestor talks about the vlachs, there is little or no doubt that they 
     were NOT franks, but the ancestors of the present-day romanians.  
     check also liviu's argumentation.  it should be plain obvious that he 
     was not taling about wels, britons, wallonians, italians, or french 
     :-)
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >Well not exactly again, the Tales of Bygone Days (it is not clear 
     >what and how much Nestor wrote) should be read in whole and not only 
     >segments. 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     well, not the whole thing, but only the segments of relevance :-) 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >The ranslations do not help at times either, in the original, the 
     >Tales describes who lived where and the Vlachs are placed in Western 
     >Europe near the see with the British Isle, unfortunately some 
     >translators corrected the name to the names of the folks as used 
     >today in the preamble, which fuels the oft claimed mistake. So it is 
     >obvious that the Tales are talking about the Franks and not somebody 
     >else. 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     now you're telling me that the available translated Laurentian text is 
     not accurate.  shall we argue this for EVERY EXTANT DOCUMENT?  
     
     second, how do you prove that the translation is wrong, and that 
     indeed Nestor, without question, talks about the franks.  please give 
     references and proper documentation.  until then, i strongly disagree 
     with your conclusion. common sense tells us otherwise.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >The nearest area to the Pannonian basin was the East Frankish empire 
     >so the Tales are describing the Frankish incursion into the pannonian 
     >basin and the subjugation and partial expulsion of the Slavs who 
     >lived there with the Avars. 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     can you refer to what passages in Nestor's Tales of the bygone days he 
     CLEARLY refers to the franks as vlakhs in the proper geographical and 
     timewise context.
     ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
     
     >I think we put Nestor out of the way. 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     not really - the assertion that his vlachs were franks is far from 
     being correct - also check liviu's posting.  i will also continue this 
     when i get back.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >I'll discuss Anonymus in more detail later and we will take the 
     >others one at the time.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     right on!
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >> never assserted that these chronicles are ENOUGH to prove 
     >>daco-roman continuity.  In order to formulate a daco-roman 
     >>continuity theory (along with the mix between daco-romans and slavs, 
     >>thus giving birth to the romanian nation in the carpatho-danubian 
     >>basin), the following points must be made:
     >>      
     >>1.  that the romans did not exterminate the dacian autochtonous 
     >>    population after their conquest of Dacia.  in previous posts, i 
     >>    showed why this scenario is likely.
     >
     >The Roman chronicles do not show much mercy toward the Dacians and a 
     >large part of the incoming legions and even settlers were not native 
     >Latin speakers.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     really?  well, check this out (this is an exerpt from a previous 
     posting that you may have missed while you were away):
     
     the assertion that the dacians were exterminated (or nearly 
     exterminated) does not make sense for the following reasons:
     
     1. lack of such a pattern during the roman conquests of other regions 
     (Gaul, Iberia, Illyria, Moesia, Pannonia, the Oriental provinces, 
     etc.).  extermination of non-roman people was not common practice in 
     the roman empire.  as a reference, check Tacitus' works (Annales. 
     XI.24) in regards to the roman policies toward the conquered 
     populations.
     
     2. remaining roman chronicles showing that young dacians were 
     conscripted as soldiers in the roman army's legions, the presence of 
     "cohorte" and "ale" made up of dacians in the roman army.  
     specifically:
     
     --in Noricum (today's Austria), there was an "ALA I ULPIA DACORUM" 
     (ie. a cavalry corps).  
     
     --in Pannonia (today's Hungary), there was a "COHORS II AUGUSTA 
     DACORUM pia fidelis veterana militaria equitata" (ie. an infantry 
     detachment with cavalry).
     
     --in Macedonia, there was COHORS III DACORUM EQUITATA", hich took part 
     in an expedition to Mesopotamia.
     
     --in the Orient, there is refernce to a VEXILLATIO DACORUM PARTHICA 
     (ie. a cavalry detachment guarding the Parthian border).
     
     --in Britain, there are references to a cohort of dacians using their 
     typical curved swords and bearing characteristic names, such as 
     Decibalus and Dida.
     
     --etc.
     
     3.  archeological finds such as latin inscriptions that include a 
     number of dacian names.  i can provide references for this if you 
     want.
     
     4.  chronicles from that time that mentions several uprisings within 
     the province by dacians, allied with the free dacians (carpii) outside 
     the roman control zone.  Such as: 
     
     --2 revolts occured during the reign of emperor Antonius Pius          
     (138-161).
     
     --the uprising between 166-175, during the war with the Quadi and 
     Marcomanni,
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >I have no problem with your theory that the Vlachs were mixed with 
     >Slavs at some time, the Serbian, Bulgarian chronicles and even the 
     >crusaders chronicles (Villeharduin) describe it well. Howvever there 
     >is no proof or strong indication that the cooperation occured in TS.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     well, there is no written chronicles about it, and i gave an 
     explanation for why such a symbiosis would have left the byzantine 
     chroniclers absolutely indifferent.  however, we should look at 
     toponymic factors in transylvania for that. (think we already went 
     though it to some degree - i will bring more in-depth info on that, 
     thoough).
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>2.  that the roman domination of Dacia Traiana was enough to 
     >>latinize the dacian population, and to create a new latinic people 
     >>from the mix of the dacians with the roman colonists.  check 
     >>previous posts again.
     >      
     >Same here, if needed I can repeat all the contraindications for the 
     >Roman times.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     well, here goes for his one (again, from previous post), for now:
     
     the fact that the dacian population was not 100% cohesive ethnically 
     could be true, but i don't see how this affects the argument of the 
     latinization of the dacians and "others" there.  they were, compared 
     to the romans, from an inferior culture, and keeping with analogous 
     situations during other roman conquests, it is not surprising.  Gaul 
     and Iberia were latinized quickly too, and not because the romans 
     stayed there for 400 years - records indicate that those people were 
     latinized much sooner than that.  also, the dacians north of the 
     danube were inclose contact with the roman world through trades and 
     population movements for another 150 years before Traianus conquered 
     Dacia, making it to about 320 years of effective or very close roman 
     contact.
     
     it is true that the roman colonists were coming from all over the 
     empire and were not romans, but most likely they were romanized.  and 
     how could they not be since they established an administration in 
     Dacia Traiana that ruled over a multitude of ethnic people (dacians, 
     colonists from the orient, illyria, moesia, pannonia, greece, etc.).  
     in order that a province, a society within the roman empire to 
     function as such, these colonists must have been able to communicate 
     and write in latin to each other - if they had no clue about the 
     language, or very poor knowledge, do you think that the province would 
     have survived formore than a few years? :-)  these colonists 
     (soldiers, administrators, traders, miners, etc.) were of very 
     different background, but what they had in common was that they used 
     latin as the language of communication. 
     
     so it is not surprising that the dacians were assimilated into that 
     society, and adopted the lingua latina, maybe not fully (it makes 
     sense to assume that they used a number of words in dacian).
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>3.  that the roman administration withdrawal from Dacia Traiana did 
     >>    not cause a full abandonment of that territory.  check previous 
     >>    posts again.
     >      
     >You are probably right here, however the most likely to leave were 
     >the ones who were Romanized, the shepherds in the mountains were the 
     >least likely to succomb to Romanizing influence in the cities.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     at the time of retreat, it is quite logical that the main 
     administrative personnel left with the roman army, but quite unlikely 
     that EVERYBODY left.  in fact, it seems more likely that the bulk of 
     the population remained, bulk comprised of townspeople, village 
     people, farmers, shepherds, small tradesmen, etc.  we know from 
     existing records that the gothshad taken possesion of dacia as 
     "federates", that is as allies that pledged not to attack the romans, 
     rather than conquering savages that ravaged the province.  so there 
     was no fear for the remaining population that they would be destroyed. 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>      4.  that archeological finds sustain the continuity theory.  
     >
     >I strongly disagree with this interpretation of the archeological 
     >findings, 
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     we have not discussed this one yet - i am aware of both 
     interpretations.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>      5.  that a mix of latinized folks with slavs in the 
     >>          carpatho-danubian was likely.  see previous posts.
     >      
     >No disagreement here except we both use different time frames.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     well, wouldn't it be dreadfully dull if we would agree on every 
     aspect? ;-)
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>      6.  that these folks inhabited that region before the magyars 
     >>          arrived there.  see above and previous posts.
     >      
     >Well as far as the Slavs are concerned there is no doubt, just read 
     >the chronicles, archeology, toponyms, etc.,
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     and there are very strong indications that vlachs/romanians lived 
     there before the magyars as well.....boy, who said that life is 
     boring? ;-)
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >>      7.  that linguistic and toponymic factors support this theory. 
     >>          see previous posts.
     >
     >Same here for the counterarguments.      
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     damn - we're on the roll, aren't we? ;-)
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >As the full text of the tales indicate you are not correct.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >we shall see, we shall see......:-)  hey, i think we covered this in 
     previous posts too....
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     >We'll continue when you get back.
     >Regards,Jeliko.
     ----------------------------------------------------------------------
     
     undoubtly........ops, bell is ringing, gotta catch mah ride 
     now......budapest, here i come.....
     
     -cristian
     
     ps:  and, during my absence, BE GOOD BOYS (or i'll take your toys 
     away.....)

 (CLARY Olivier) wrote:

> So when is it "refusal to speak Romanian" and when is it ignorance of
Romanian?
> How can you know if you do not understand what is going on in
Hungarian?...
> you can know only if the attendant later shows he knows some
Romanian.
> - did you see as a boy that there is bread, did you show it as what you
want,
>   and did they say no? (same for the ice-cream and the medecine)
> - did the hotel do more than just show minimal goodwill for giving info and
>   for sign language? (like many good Romanian staff in hotels...)
> - did the Romanians make communication efforts like in a foreign country,
>   speaking slowly, showing things, making gestures etc?
> 
> -- Olivier


Further clarification (looks like is necessary)

> In article > 
   Adrian > writes:
> >- When I was 6 years old in Sf. Ghorghe visiting relatives 
   the Bread
> >store attendant refused to sell me bread.

I pointed out with my finger and showed the bread I wanted.
Later, my grandmother intervened this time
in Hungarian (She was born in Hungary proper) and the bread 
was obtained.

> >- MY cousin while visiting Ghorghieni with his father where refused
> >information about a room available at a local mountain hotel.

As far as I was told grown up people pretended  not to speak or
understand a word of Romanian.

> >- Another cousin with her parents in TG. Mures where refused service
> >at a Ice cream vending place.

The ice cream vendor basically was selling to some locals ice cream but 
when my cousin showed up and ask for some she closed the wooden
window
in their noses answering something in Hungarian and it sure wasn't 
closing time.

> >- My aunt was refused service in a Pharmacy in Tusnad.

The pharmacist basically refused to communicate in Romanian.

> > All this incidents were caused because the Secui refused to speak 
> >Romanian.
 
I think that should explain it.

By the way, in TG. Mures before the riot in 1990, there were some stores
where in the window it was written something to the effect No Romanian
spoken here.  My point is that these attitudes will only cause probles
for everyone.

By the way, another interesting situation related to me by my grandmother
is that during her trip to Budapest (some 20 years ago) with other Romanian
 people while crossing the street and speaking in Romanian she could
overhear other Hungarians making derogatory remarks at her group in 
Hungarian of course.

Were those just some exceptions ?
I hope so.

Adrian

Please, try to help this lady :
Send your info to:



> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello:

My name is Tomie Burke, and I searching for the relatives of my father
who was from Hungary.  The only information we have found over the course
of 20 years is that we have an uncle currently living in Szaszholembatta,
Hungary.

My father escaped a Russian Prison in the 50's and came to the U.S.  He
died in the 60's and then my mother died in 1970.  I have two sisters,
and together we have 5 children (all boys).  We would very much like to
know our Hungarian relatives.

Is there anyone out there in cyber space that could assist us in locating
our uncle.  I realize that Hungary is a very big country and that Szasz
is a common name, however, we want desperately to find our family.

My sisters and I appreciate your help.

Sincerely,

Mrs. Tomie Burke (Szasz)

In article > Gotthard Saghi-Szabo,
 writes:
>When he first made them and even took their SPECTRA!!, nobody believed
>the young Hungarian chemist, he was almost ridiculed :-)
>Carbocations are positively charged molecules (ions), usu. the charge
>localized on the carbon. e.g 
>         
>                  H     H
>                   \(+)/
>                     C
>                     |
>                     H

Just a few remarks because this alone can be
misleading because the molecule above does not
form directly, in one step process.

[please,switch to Courier because of the structures]

First let see how to make superacid:

SbF5 + 2HF ---> SF6(-) + H2F(+)

In such acids even alkans become protonated:
                                                         
           CH3                             CH3
           |                               |
      CH3- C - CH3 + superacid --->  CH3 - C - CH4(+) 
           |                               |
           CH3                             CH3

it is unstable:

           CH3                       CH3
           |                         |
     CH3 - C - CH4 (+)  -----> CH3 - C (+)  + CH4(gas)
           |                         |
           CH3                       CH3

The superacids are so strong acids that even Xe, H2, Cl2,
Br2 react as base (!!) in them and accept proton.

Tamás

The American Hungarian Folklore Centrum invites you to attend the
First Hungarian Folk Music And Folkdance Camp 6/24-6/30, '95

SNPJ Recreation Center - In Scenic Enon Valley, Pennsylvania
(1 hour North from Pittsburgh)

"Join us at this fun-filled one week long festival of Hungarian folk 
music, folkdance and folklore presenting outstanding staff from Hungary 
and America"

Musical Director:  Dr. Bela Halmos
Instructors:       Kalman Balogh & members of the Meta Ensemble
Dance Instructors: Zoltan Zsurafszki & Zsuzsa Vincze

For years now, there has been widespread interest in America about 
authentic, village-style Hungarian folk music.  And the symposium, the 
biannual Hungarian folkdance camp has been offering musical teaching in 
an ad hoc, informal way.  

This time, we are getting serious.

Hungarian folk music will be the major theme of this camp.  And we've 
spared no trouble or expense to assemble the finest teaching staff North 
America has ever seen.  Dr. Bela Halmos (father of the Tanchaz movement, 
founding member of the Sebo Ensemble and director of the famous 
Jaszbereny music camp in Hungary) will be our musical director.

He will be assisted by members of the famous Meta Ensemble as well as 
Kalman Balogh, the virtuoso of the cimbalom.

For advanced and intermediate folk musicians, the camp will provide an 
unexcelled opportunity to receive one-on-one or small group instruction 
on various traditional fol instruments.  (In addition to violin, kontra 
and double-bass, instruction can be had on hurdy-gurdy, utogardon, koboz, 
clarinet, bagpipes and cimbalom.)

For beginners, introductory classes will be held in string playing as 
well as citera, furulya, tambura, jew's harp and, of course, in singing.

We will make every attempt to make all this accessible to American folk 
musicians.  Craig Packard, musical director of the Tisza Ensemble, will 
apply his considerable expertise in this respect.

Musicians will be encouraged to "sit in" on the nightly Tanchaz sessions 
and play dance music with the Meta Ensemble.

Speaking of dance, though it will the secondary theme of the camp, 
instruction will be of the highest caliber, Zoltan Zsurafszki and Zsuzsa 
Vincze being our guest instructors.  Camp attendees will be able to 
choose dance as their "major", though they'll be encouraged to take a 
"minor" in instrumental or vocal music.

			MUSIC

INSTRUCTORS:

Dr. Bela Halmos:	Researcher, performer, teacher, he is Hungary's
			foremost expert in Tanchaz-style music.  He will
			give intermediate and advanced classes in violin 
			and in ensemble playing.

Beata Salamon:		Lead singer and violonist of Meta. Will lead
			vocal instruction and offer classes in folk
			violin playing.

Istvan Beran:		Meta's kontra player and wind istrument specialist.
			Will give basic and advanced furulya instruction 
			as well as bagpipes, clarinet/tarogato.

Zsolt Nagy:		Meta's 2nd violinist and kontra player. Will
			lead "kontra" violin classes as well as basic
			citera instruction.

Albert Mohacsy:		Meta's bass player.  Will lead bass instruction 
			and give classes in hurdy-gurdy, gardon and koboz.

Kalman Balogh:		One of the world's foremost exponents of the 
			cimbalom.  Will offer instruction on this 
			beautiful instrument.

LEVELS OF INSTRUCTION:

Beginners:

	You have no (or very limited) musical background.
	Classes offered:
		- singing
		- citera (zither)
		- furulya (sheperd's pipe)
		- doromb (jew's harp)
		- tambura
		- gardon
	We will make every effor to arrange for loaner instruments at camp
	to those who want to begin but lack the instrument of their choice.

Intermediate:

	You have had a couple of years training on some instument.  You 
	can read music.

	Classes offered:
		- violin (must have previous violin experience)
		- "kontra" (contra violin)
		- "bogo" (double bass)
		- ensemble playing
		- shepherd's pipe (furulya)
		- clarinet (klarinet)
	(Plus hurdy-gurdy, bagpipe, tarogato, gardon, koboz and cimbalom
	 classes according to demand.)

Advanced:

	Assumes several years of instruction on the instrument of your
	choice.  (Classes offered on all instruments.)

			DANCE

INSTRUCTORS:

Zoltan Zsurafszki & Zsuzsa Vincze:

He is the artistic director ofthe Budapest Ensemble, a renowned 
performer, researcher and instructor.  She is a former member of the 
State folk Ensemble and the Kodaly Enseble.  They will lead dance 
instruction.  Together, they have taught some of the most exciting 
"Sympo" camps of years gone by.  There are no finer teachers of Hungarian 
folkdance anywhere.

This year dance dialects are:

1. Gyorgyfalvi - an exciting transitional dialect between Kalotaszeg and
   Mezoseg.

2. Gyomori - a Hungarian "paloc" dialect from central Slovakia.

Note: Dance workshops will be held each morning and afternoon, and every 
day ends with a TANCHAZ (folkdance party). Although teaching is aimed at 
the intermediate/advanced level, instruction always starts the the 
basics, allowing to learn the rudiments of the material.

ADMINISTRATIVE STAFF:

Kalman & Judit Magyar:

Founders of "Sympo", North America's premiere Hungarian folkdance camp; 
founders and directors of the American Hungarian Folklore Centrum, 
foundrs of the Pontozo festival movement, Judit and Kalman are the 
powerhouse behind Hungarian folkdance and music in America.

Kalman Dreisziger:

Artistic director of Montreal's Bokreta Ensemble, members of Folklore 
Canada International, the "other" Kalman has been involved in organizing 
Pontozo festivals in Canada and has been part of the "Sympo" staff for 
close to 20 years.

Dr. Craig Packard:

Dr. Packard has been involved with the folk music and dance of Easter 
Europe for over 25 years: He was Music Director of Zivili, founder and 
choregorapher of Romanian folk ensemble Haiducii and is Music Director of 
the Hungarian Tisza Enseble Band of Washington, D.C..  He has done 
research in Eastern Europe and is presently Music Director for Luk na 
glavata (Macedonian) and Balkanto.

COST OF PARTICIPATION:

The fees below (all prices in $U.S.) are for 7 nights lodging in cabins 
or on campsite using own tent.  All indoor lodging is minimum 2 persons 
per room except if single supplement of $100 is applied.  Bedding 
(sheets, pillows, blankets and towels) ARE NOT included and must be 
provided by participants.  Special daily rates may be available, but MUST 
Be ARRANGED PRIOR TO VISIT.  Camp is limited to 120 participants, please 
register early.  For more information telephone or telefax to (201)-836-4869.

Type			Lodging		Camping 	Commnent

1.Indvidual early	$295		$275		Full fee paid by			
registration						May 1, 1995

2. Individual		$325		$275		Minimum 2 per room*

3. Group, min.6 (USA)	$285		$265		Performing groups

4. Nonparticipant	$250	 	$230		Accompanying someone

5. Children under	$175		$175		Staying with parent
6 with parent	

* Single supplement: $100 added to lodging 

DEPOSITS BY MAY 1, BALANCE DUE BY JUNE 1, OR PLACE CANNOT BE GUARANTEED
($50.00 deposit to: AHFC, P.O. Box  262 Bogota NJ, 07603)
Tel/Fax: (201)  836-4869
** Indicate whether your primary interest is Music or Dance!

ABOUT THE CAMP FACILITIES:

The SNPJ Recreation Center is owned and operated by the Slovene National 
Benefit Society which offers the best in fraternal insurance to all 
interested individuals.  The Recreation Center is a beatiful 500 acre 
park with Olympic size swimming pool, tennis and basketball courts, 
nature trails, nearby state parks, spacious dancing halls, 20 acre 
fishing lake and many other recreational facilities.  The dancing hall 
and the Barn (where we will hold our Tanchaz) have wooden floors and are 
well ventilated.  Lodgingg is available in cottages, in a motel or in a 
camping ground all in the very near vicinity. Food will be served in a 
central dining hall.  The Center is one hour from North from Pittsburgh 
and 45 minutes from the airport.

Subtracted from mailings of:
American Hungarian Folklore Centrum
Division of Hungarian Educators Association
P.O. Box  262
Bogota, NJ  07603
Att: Kalman & Judit Magyar


Hope to see you there!

Arpad Fabian Kovacs of Szekelyfold
Tisza Ensemble, Inc.




--
WWW                : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~kovacs
personal email     : 

My guidebook to Hungary says that you need a passport-size photo for the 
Budapest travelcards - but this is  Brit publication, and I have no idea how 
big a Brittish passport photo is.

So what are the required dimensions for such a photo, and how much are the 
hetibe'rlet and the ke'theti be'rlet nowadays?

In > 
(55000-Weisz Guy(ih9999)999) writes: 
>
>
>My cousin in Budapest died suddenly and unexpectedly of a heart 
>attack on May 20th.  I talked
>to his wife on the phone yesterday (June 6th) and she indicated that
his
>funeral was scheduled by the "authorities" on June 9th, 20 days after
his
>death.  This feels terrible to me, but she seemed to take it as a 
>"normal" thing.
>
>Can someone explain this delay to me?  Is this bureaucracy, or
something else?
>This is to be a completely secular service, so no religious
circumstances
>are involved.
>
>Any help you can give would be appreciated. I can't change things, but
maybe
>I can understand it better.

Dear Robert,

This can be caused by several things. 
 First of all it can be a delay that they have to perform an autopsy,
whuch they do frequently.
 The delay can be also caused by the fact that they have so many
funerals and only a limited number of places for funeral services.(Keep
in mind that in Hungary, funeral services take place at the cemetery
and they have only a few funeral parlors there.  Not like in the US
where there are a number of funeral companies.)
 The other delay can be caused if the body is cremated.  There is a
long wait for that.

I hope this helps.

Yours,

Gabor M.

In article >,  (Dorin Taranu
l) writes:
>  (CLIFFORD BURTON LEE (1962.02.10-1986.09.26))
> wrote:

Sorry! I GET this letter, and after I posted it!
It's very important, I think...;-)

> 
>>Nu numai ca scrii intr-o romaneasca stricata de care ne puteai foarte 
>>bine scuti (puteai folosi engleza, daca esti in stare...), insa timpeniile 
>>pe care le insiri sint sub orice critica si imi provoca GREATA, pur si 
>>simplu!!!!! In primul rind, spui ca ai fost OBLIGAT sa inveti 
>>romaneste---pai bozgor nenorocit ce esti, era NORMAL sa
>>vorbesti ROMANESTE atita vreme cit traiai pe teritoriul Romaniei. 
>>Nu aveai decit sa te carabanesti in Ungaria, daca nu-ti convenea!!! Tu 
>>si cu bozgorii tai nenorociti ati avut intotdeauna gura mare si ati fost 
>>plini de pretentii nerusinate de cind v-a adus necuratul in coasta 
>>noastra, a romanilor!
> 
> I can't speak for others, nor  am I responsible for their deeds, but,
> as an ethnic Romanian, I felt insulted and ashamed by this posting.
> 
> I deeply love my nation, its tradition, culture, history and land in
> which it was born and dwells. But, I also understand that we,
> Romanians, do not live in a void, that there are other nationalities
> which live with or next to us, that we are all part of the mankind
> family, and that, as children of the same God, we are all entitled to
> the same rights and aspirations. And to this end, I believe that
> respect for others, is respect for ourselves.
> 
> So, at least as far as this Romanian is concerned, let me assure all
> my Magyar friends that I do not partake in the hatred spilled by the
> above posting, and that I hope that more or my Romanian brothers and
> sisters will join me in trying to put an end to this ethnic bickering
> nonsense.
> 
> "If not us, then who? If not now, then when?"
> 
> Dorin Taranul
> 
> 
-- 
   ________________________________________________________________________
	Kincses Zoltan (Zoli)     |    "For a hill men would kill, why?
	 1502 Bp.Pf.17 B\411      |     They do not know!"
	       HUNGARY         	  |           -For Whom The Bell Tolls-
   ________________________________________________________________________
                   .                                   _
                .-/ \                                 / =-.
            _.-~ /   \___  ______ __  _    _     _   /___| ~-._
            \ /  -~||  __||_  __//  || |  | |  /| | / __/| .\ /
             / . . ||  __| | |\ / ' || |__| |_/ | || (_/ |   \
            / / ~| ||____| |_| /_/|_||____|____||_| \___\| |\ \
           / /   |-~\    \ \ \ | || ||    |    // / /   /~-| \ \
          / /__ / \  \____\|\_\|_/|_||____|___//_/\/___/  / __\ \
         /  .-~\   \-~                                 ~-/\/~-.  \
        /.-~    \        To Love And To Be Loved!         /    ~-.\
       /~      .-                                         -.      ~\
       \    .-~                                             ~-.    /
        \.-~                                                   ~-./