wrote:
 
> Well, how did Romania got Transylvania in the first place? Through great
> power intervention.  That cannot be excluded in the future, working in
> the opposite direction.  Now we are not talking about its likelyhood,
> just the possibility.  After all, who would have predicted the fall of
> the Soviet empire just 3 years before it happened?

I did.  But at the time, I thought it was totally obvious:

In the Winter of 1988, I began work on a Star Trek novel and -- as 
it was supposedly only fantasy after all -- I wrote a number of 
things which definitely fell into the category of "wishful thinking," 
but which nonetheless eventually *did* came true.   However, in 
the case of the fall of the SU, I thought that this was a foregone 
conclusion and figured it was important -- as the plot depended on 
a time travel sequence -- to make the late 1980s and early 1990s as 
believable as possible.  Of course I also wrote Ceausescu out of the 
plot as soon as I began to learn about his regime (Autumn of 1988, 
right after I took up playing the cimbalom and found out what he had 
done to Toni Iordache); and because this was an action novel, of course, 
I had to make the impending revolution more bloody than any of the 
others in East Europe.  Eventually, I stopped writing: it was getting 
a little too realistic.  

> Well, so much for rattling your cage ...

What cage? <*evil grin*>

> Panonescu

Oh, by the way, I wrote that Transilvania would always be Romanian 
land....

Your Undying Myth,
Vlad Luceafarul Zenescu
______________________________________________________________________
Vlad-Jyomyo Tepes Draculea                          
            '   '  "No rank, no post." -- Zen Master Rinzai

=+=+=
From: "Petar Makara (Makarov)" >
Subject: Re: Barbarism in Chechnya (& AMERICAN New Worl Order BIGOTRY)
Date: 12 Apr 1996 17:51:25 GMT
 
Petar Makara (Petar @Watson.IBM.com) wrote:
 "       1) The largest ethnic group, in the world, that was sentenced to be an
 ethnic
minority (i.e. outside its mother state) are Russians. ..there are more than 40
,000,000 
Russians living outside Russia...They were equal citizens... Overnight - they g
ot to
be minority... "

Comments:
I understand your concern about russian minority, hungarians have somehow simil
ar concerns
regarding hungarians living outside of the contemporary  Hungary. However, ther
e are
significant differences as well. 
Unlike hungarians, most of 40 million russians have been feeling all disadvanta
ges of being in
minority only for last 5 years, since USSR crumbled and new independent states 
were formed.
Recall recent history: a massive migration of russians into separate (but not i
ndependent)
republics of the USSR, especially after WWII, which created ethnic tension ever
ywhere,
however people were not supposed to complain due to the  "high mission" of russ
ians. It was a
hideous politics of bolsheviks in order to create so called international kosmo
politan  society,
which they never beleived. It was a real  russian cultural and economical imper
ialism aimed to
consolidate the bolshevic ruling gang and colonial state in earlier conquered c
ountries.
Bolshevics nevered trusted to even non-russians communists. You know, in every 
"republic" of
the USSR for long time the second secretary was  a real ruler and he was always
 - russian.They
recruited people from Russian Federation for most important jobs in political p
ower structure 
and economy.
Russian culture was considered to be the highest in the world ( you must know t
he russian ironic
saying or joke: elephants are originated from Russia).   By the way, colonizati
on of other peoples
started centuries ago, when Ivan Groznij besieged and took Kazan, the tatar cap
ital. 
Most of these russians became a victim of this so called international, kosmopo
litan politics .
Now all new independent countries are trying to preserve their national identit
y, culture and to
protect independence.You should also feel  empathy to newly formed countries ( 
and to
Chechnja too) in their strive for independence . It looks like the fall of russ
ian empire - that is
what  hurted your feeling very much. You can't agree with that, you write russi
ans only with
capital R! ( see your cited text).  
Don't worry, after a while you will get used to this new world!
 

 
In another letter P.M. wrote: 
    "You do not have even basic knowledge of the history of Russia.
Many places Russians were literally invited to defend Christian population from
Islamic onslaught. Other places, like Ukraine, Russians used to be majority
(and many places there - they still are). One of the first Russian CAPITAL used
 to be
in Kiev (Vladimir 960-1015, Russian tzar who introduced Russians to Christianit
y)...""

Comments:
You should distinguish  between people and language. In Ukraine only Crimea, Od
essa and
south-eastern part of the country are populated mostly by  russians. In the res
t part of the country
russian language gradually became an official one. 
  Knyaz Vladimir (not tzar)  was a monarch of Kiev Rus when Russia did not esis
t yet.  Later,
after the fall of  Kiev Rus its people gradually trasformed into three slavic n
ations: russian,
ukranian and belarussian (white russianns). In fact,   ukraininan claim that sh
oots of russian
culture are in Kiev, in capital of Ukraine.   
 And finally:
This "american imperialism"(as you wrote) is not so bad if you enjoy his hospit
ality! 
i.f.

Vladislaus Drakulya  > wrote:

>I did.  But at the time, I thought it was totally obvious:
>
>In the Winter of 1988, I began work on a Star Trek novel and -- as 
>it was supposedly only fantasy after all -- I wrote a number of 
>things which definitely fell into the category of "wishful thinking," 

Good for you!  Now, is your novel in the Tower Books yet?
I am willing to cut a bit more slack for a fellow Halcyoner, you know.  ;-)

Joe

Tisztelt Legfuggetlenebb Kisgazda tagtarsak,

  A West Lafayette-i
  Legfuggetlenebb Kisgazdak Szovetsegenek legutobbi zart ulesen
  a Fougyesz ur szemelyesen erositette meg, hogy  Pannon Jozsef aldozatos
  kozremukodese nelkul sohasem jutott volna hozza
  a mijozsink szeplotelen johiret aljas indokbol megragalmazo liberalista
  bertollnok levelehez.  Ez, ismerve Pannon tagtars egyenes kisgazda habitusat
  engem nem lepett meg.

  Mindannyiunk nagy oromere, a West Lafayette-i
  Legfuggetlenebb Kisgazdak Szovetsegenek Elnoksege a mijozsinkrol elnevezett
  Dr Torgyan Jozsef erdemrenddel tuntette ki Pannon Jozsefet, a Haza es
  a Legfuggetlenebb Kisgazdak Szovetsegenek tobbeves lelkiismeretes szolgala-
  taert. Errol termeszetesen ertesiteni fogjuk Dr Torgyan Jozsefet, mijozsin-
  kat, a Fuggetlen Kisgazda, Foldmunkas es Polgari Part elnoket, es Dr
  Torgyan Jozsefne Csehi Mariat a Haza Anyjat, a Magyar Tudomanyos Akademia
  jovendo elnoket. Ezennel, illetekes helyrol felhatalmazom a Magyar 
  Tavirati Iroda Orszagos Sajtoszolgalatat a fenti korlevel kozzetetelere.

  Vitez Mssy EG WL LFKSZ Elnok sk.

  P.S Sajnos bokros teendoim, elsosorban a partepites embertprobalo feladatai
  miatt az scm-en zajlo roppant epito eszmecsereben nem tudok resztvenni.
  Alkalmankent a Fougyesz ur fogja kepviselni az Elnokseget.

In article >, David Byrden > wrote:
:In fact, he'll be late for work.

Jesus is coming, look busy.

boy brent          | You can't really appreciate Wagner until
 | you've heard it sung in its native Klingonese.

In article >,  ()
writes:

>
>
I have seen the interview on Larry King. I can't quote him verbatim,- -
what I recall is that Brando said; the Hollywood establishment is all
jewish and they are rotten. BUT before that statement he went on and on in
great detail, how much he admires the jewish people. He also stated that
all his children went to jewish schools; Larry King asked him why is that?
Brando said; because the jewish schools are the best. That was all - the
interview was over.

me

In article >, George Lazar > wrote:
>My understanding is that the purpose of this newsgroup is to 
>exchange wiews related to the society and culture of Hungary. In 
>the last couple of weeks, a series of hateful (anti-jewish, 
>anti-gypsy, anti-gay, anti-romanian...) notes were posted from 
>public.siliconvalley.com. Individuals were attacked (Eva S. Balog); 
>notes were posted which don't aim to foster a healthy debate about 
>real issues, but intend to spread hate against jews, gypsys, 
>gays...whoever.. 

Well, would you like to read some anti-Lazar posts, too?
Here it goes ...

>Can the maintainer of this newsgroup block postings from 
>public.siliconvalley.com ? 

You sound like somebody who dropped off the wallpaper. ;-)
This is a free forum, with no "maintainer" who can be pressured or
intimidated like the maintainer of some lists (or HIX?).

>If not, I suggest to remove the entire group from the usenet list.

No kiddin'!  Any other suggestions you might have?  This is not Hungary,
anno "Lazar era", you know.  I suggest you remove yourself from the
Usenet for your intolerance of freedom of expression. 

Joe Pannon

Gyula Szokoly > wrote:
>
>  Talan azert, mert Ilona es Mr. X. nem haverok, es artani akart neki.
>Tudta, hogy Elek orulne neki. Nem szuksegszeru, hogy felkeresre tegye.

Persze ez a variacio meg annyira sem valoszinu, mint az enyem. Ugyanis
Elek mar Ilona elso jelentkezesetol kedve raszalt, amit senki masrol nem
tudok.  Mar akkor valahogy kinyomozta, hogy Viktoria es Ilona ugyanaz.
Az ilyesmit, amit meg en sem tudtam mindjart, azert nem talalnak ki csak 
ugy veletlenul az emberek.  Ehhez aktiv szimatolas kellett.

>A tortenelem soran annyi nevtelen feljelentes volt mar, *lehet*, ez
>is csak egy kozuluk. A 'valoszinuleg', 'elkepzelheto hogy', es ehhez
>hasonlo kijelentesek nem buntetojogi fogalmak.

Persze, hogy nem azok.  De a szamitogepbe valo betores az.  Azt hiszem,
hogy eleg lenne az Ilonanak egy nevtelen tettes elleni feljelentest
tenni, amire Eleket becitalnak, mint koronatanut. S akkor ott aztan meg
kene mondania, hogy hogyan jutott a levelhez.  Ezzel ugyan a botores
vadat meguszhatja, de a szemelyisegi jogok megserteset egy privat level
nyilvanossagra hozasaval -- aligha.  S azt hiszem az artani akarasrol
sem kellene nagyon gyozkodni az eskudteket.
>
>  Igen, feltetelezhetjuk. Bizonyitva egyelore nincs. Igen, valoszinuleg
>valaki elkovetett egy buntenyt. Meg ez sem biztos. Mint superuser
>egy gepen, neha en is belebotlok maganlevelekbe. Minden szandekossag
>nelkul. Neha emberek ugy el tudjak szurni a leveluket (pl. se felado,

Ezt el is hiszem, de akkor az Ilona fianak egyetemen az illetonek egy
magyarul tudo Superusernek kellett lennie, aki azt is tudta kinek kell
atpasszolnia azt a levelet.  Gondolom az Ilona fia konnyen
kinyomozhatja, hany olyan magyar Superuser johet ott szoba.

>  Hany embernek van root accountja kettotok gepen? Ezeket kerdeztetek mar?

Azt hiszem, hogy nem az en gepemen tortent a dolog, s kulonben is az
egesz nem is annyira account kerdes, mint password kerdes.

PJ

My understanding is that the purpose of this newsgroup is to 
exchange wiews related to the society and culture of Hungary. In 
the last couple of weeks, a series of hateful (anti-jewish, 
anti-gypsy, anti-gay, anti-romanian...) notes were posted from 
public.siliconvalley.com. Individuals were attacked (Eva S. Balog); 
notes were posted which don't aim to foster a healthy debate about 
real issues, but intend to spread hate against jews, gypsys, 
gays...whoever.. 

Can the maintainer of this newsgroup block postings from 
public.siliconvalley.com ? 

If not, I suggest to remove the entire group from the usenet list.

Peter Kovalszki  > wrote:

> Moreover, based on 
>my own subjective Hungarianness I would not claim the right to vote in 
>Hungarian elections- simply because I do not share the financial,civic, 
>etc. burdens of Hungarian citizens.

Conditioning the right of vote that way may sound fair, but rather
uniquely Hungarian trait.  For if you want to be consistent, you would
also have to say that people living on public assistance in Hungary
should have even a lesser right to vote; after all, they are a burden on
the other Hungarian taxpayers, while we abroad are not.

I think the solution is not to tie purely political rights, such as
voting, to economic responsibilities of citizenship.  Political rights
should only be tied to the citizenship, while those who pay Hungarian
taxes ought to be satisfied with the economic benefits from those taxes,
such as the various social benefits which we abroad don't get.

Hungarians who think like you about the voting rights might do well to
ponder why it is that most other countries don't condition their voting
rights to residency within their borders.  Not even Poland, where your
name rings very familiar. ;-)

Joe Pannon

Hermes1  > wrote:
>
>If things keep going the way they go in Hungary, in a few years some
>smartalec like Tokes will start claiming that Hungary belongs to
>Transylvania, and likely Transylvania will be able to absorb Hungary,
>at least from an economic standpoint !

Thanks for that excellent example for dreaming, Hermes!

Joe

zzzzzzzzzzz

On Sat, 13 Apr 1996, Wally Keeler wrote:

>                             (
>    (                                                     )
>              )               )
>     )                       (           )                         (
> The(smell of(Goober's post on)ce it is in the atmosphere:(
>   ((                        ((         (      (                    )
>    ))       )      (         ))         )                )        (
>   ((       (                (((        ((      )        (          ))
>   )))      ))       )       ))))    )   ))    (          )        ((
>  ((((     ((   )   (   )   (((((   (   ((         )     ((    )   )))
> In > on 11 Apr))1996  ((((
>  (Gabor Barsai) wrote: (((      )))))
> Mating call? I just asked if there were any chicks reading the ng, since
> there was too much name-calling going on, and I thought I may lighten up
> the discussions. Whatever you read into it is up to you. I wasn't aware of
> the fact that you use it to mate with moose. (So tell us, what's it like,
> eh?) BTW, I'm sure Ms. Bali is offended that you equate chicks (ie. cute
> women with a personality) with moose.I think the misunderstanding comes
> from the fact that Ms. Bali equated chicks with fluff-chicks (ie. like the
> women on the popular show "Crotchwatch"). Gabor (ooooooooooopps, I mean
> Goober) aka. Bird Jaguar, Lord of the Mayas at Yaxchilan
> -- 
> Wally Keeler					Poetry
> Creative Intelligence Agency			is
> Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency
> 
> ======= The following has been added by the mailer software =======
> 
> subs/unsubs info - mailto:
> digest - mailto:
>

Hi there,

 I am 21/Arabic/male,i will be in Budapest next july,for 2 months,i heard that
the hungarian girls are very pretty,something that increased my eagerness for
this trip :).
 
 i will be very glad if a pretty hungarian girl can email me now,& that we can
meet when i am there,we can spend a nice time together for 2 months going out
for restaurants,movies,walks,....

 thanks for advavce,& i will be glad to open my mail box the next time to find
this nice email from a pretty girl,and i promise we will enjoy a nice time
together at yr nice country....

  reply to:

                                       Bye,bye

--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENTION***
Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED.
Please, report inappropriate use to                
For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to    
If you have any problems, address them to          

Have you thought of setting up your own news group? I think you are
trespassing, please stop cross posting to SCM.

mep

Gabor Elek  > wrote:

>  P.S Sajnos bokros teendoim, elsosorban a partepites embertprobalo feladatai
>  miatt az scm-en zajlo roppant epito eszmecsereben nem tudok resztvenni.
>  Alkalmankent a Fougyesz ur fogja kepviselni az Elnokseget.

Terhelt agyu es frocsogo szaju volt KISZ titkarunk nyilvan azt hiszi,
hogy borzaszto jopofa amikor nyitott mikrofon elott gyakorolja legendas
szofosasat pont akkor amikor az SCM kozonsege nyilvan mas kerdesre var
magyarazatot tole.  Ezuttal azonban meg a jolinformaltsaga is csodot
mondott, mivel en voltam azok egyike, aki mindig gyanakvassal neztem
Torgyan tevekenyseget, s ennek nyilvanosan is tobbszor hangot adtam itt.
Ugy latszik nagymela'k Elek baratunk nincs formaban.  Lehet, hogy
ideges?

PJ

Istvan Szucs > wrote:
>
>Ilona's claim however was not tha something is fishy
>here. If that is what she said I would have had to
>agree. Ilona's story doesn't measure up .. and if it ever
>goes to court we'll see the rest. If Ilona will consult with
>security experts and hasn;'t done that before her post was s
>ent she might be in a nasty situation however. since her
>storyas it is is not credible if the security experts find
>out that Elek wasn't it or even if they can't proove that he
>is it she may have libel on her hand. From her posting it
>sounds like she is not proficient enough to be mnaking such
>accusations, and since her story is not together I would
>guess that she has not consulted those security experts. 

Well, I've had enough of your exercise in sophistry.
It's pretty obvious to me that even if Elek committed a murder, you
would blame the victim for not being cautious enough.
Since there is nothing new you or I can add to this controversy, it's
best to let it rest and wait for the outcome of whatever Ilona decides
to do about it.

Joe

Istvan Szucs > wrote:
>
>The difference is exactly that when you are talking about
>information (such as this letter) it is impossible to trace
>back the carrier of this information to the crime. If you

That's bull!  If Elek is subpoenad, he HAS TO tell where and how he's
got that letter or he can be charged with contempt of court.

>I konw that hits is not an exhaustive answewr, but I hope it
>clears the difference up somewhat. This btw allows
>journalists to be protected from criminal activities their
>sources may have committed without their knowledge. 

First, Elek is no journalist, second, even journalists have been jailed
for witholding information in court.

Joe

 wrote:
> 
> Peter Kovalszki  > wrote:
> 
> > Moreover, based on
> >my own subjective Hungarianness I would not claim the right to vote in
> >Hungarian elections- simply because I do not share the financial,civic,
> >etc. burdens of Hungarian citizens.
> 
> Conditioning the right of vote that way may sound fair, but rather
> uniquely Hungarian trait.  For if you want to be consistent, you would
> also have to say that people living on public assistance in Hungary
> should have even a lesser right to vote; after all, they are a burden on
> the other Hungarian taxpayers, while we abroad are not.
> 
> I think the solution is not to tie purely political rights, such as
> voting, to economic responsibilities of citizenship.  Political rights
> should only be tied to the citizenship, while those who pay Hungarian
> taxes ought to be satisfied with the economic benefits from those taxes,
> such as the various social benefits which we abroad don't get.
> 
> Hungarians who think like you about the voting rights might do well to
> ponder why it is that most other countries don't condition their voting
> rights to residency within their borders.  Not even Poland, where your
> name rings very familiar. ;-)
> 
> Joe Pannon
>      Hello, Jozsi,
 
     You are debating something which was not the main point, or thrust
of my quoted intervention, which is the question of voting rights. I 
agree with You, nor the size- or the lack of-  taxes( or general 
economic contribution, etc. to the national economy) should be the 
criteria for voting rights, neither your residing actually in the 
country. That should be based on citizenship,and having that on legal 
status, age, etc., as it is.That is for the Hungarian parliament, 
constitution, etc. to determine, and for the proper institutions to 
verify. 
My point was about Hungarianness( magyarsag)- which should not be based 
on citizenship, or residency in the country, or voting in Hungarian 
elections, etc. And yes, my name is Polish, but You may realize, that it 
is not spelled in the conventional Polish way( no w, and with sz,etc). 
My forth-grade ancestor on my father's side escaped Poland in 1863 after 
the unsuccessful Warsaw uprising against the Russians, fled fo 
Transylvania(that time Habsburg empire) and married a Hungarian( 
Szekely) girl, and was assimilated into Hungarian; that initial turn 
held through repeated intermarriages by male descendants with Saxon 
girls from Brasso(Kronstadt), and here I am debating the question of 
Hungarianness , on the Internet, in the US of A. Isn't that great?! And 
You: directly from the gently rolling, civilized pannon hills and 
fields?  PK

Wally Keeler created:
:How it is processed:
:                         ___
:                 /======/             
:        ____    //      \__       
:         | \\  //          \:,   
: |_______|__|_//            ;:;                
:_L_____________\o           ;;;
:(CCCCCCCCCCCCCC)            ;;;;
:|==============
:                 |(Gabor Barsai)wrote: Don't bet on|
:                 |it. . . yesterday at the local BP|
:                 |gas  station a chick  asked me to|
:                 |lunch while I was paying for gas.|
:                 |She has nice  blue eyes and black|
:                 |hair. I mean,I can't help my good|
:                 \looks and superior qualities, can/
:                  \I? You're a feisty  one, aren't/
:                   \you!  I like that in a woman,/
:                    \too. . .Here's a few poems,/
:                     \just for Brigi:Who is it,/
:                      \that makes me feel oogy/
:                       \Only you, my dear, sw/
:                        \eet Brigi.Reggel ne/
:                         \m tudok enni, mer/
:                          \t Rad gondolok,/
:                           \Delben nem tu/
:                            \dok enni, m/
:                             \ert Rad g/
:                              |ondolok|
:                              |Este ne|
:                              |tudok a|
:                              |Hahahah|
:                              |aha! Oh|
:                              |Im just|
:                              |soooooo|
:                               \good!/
:                                '
:                                |  '
:                                G  |
:                                O  B
:                                O  A
:                                B  R
:                         (      E )F        )
:                                R(
:                          )       )        (
:                         (      ((    (     )
:                         ))      ))    )   (    (
:                 )      ((    GOBS OF (    ))    )
:                (        ))  GABOR BARFSAI((    (        (
:                 )      (GABOR BA \o/ RSAI GYORGY KOVACS  )
:                (    GOOBER KOVACU | OUS GAYORGY BARFSAI (
:                LAYER AFTER LAYER / \ AFTER LAYER AFTER LAYER       
:==================================================================

Anna Smith in her element.

In article >,  (George Lazar) wrote:
>My understanding is that the purpose of this newsgroup is to 
>exchange wiews related to the society and culture of Hungary. In 
>the last couple of weeks, a series of hateful (anti-jewish, 

Couple of years you wanted to say I guess.

>anti-gypsy, anti-gay, anti-romanian...) notes were posted from 
>public.siliconvalley.com. Individuals were attacked (Eva S. Balog); 
>notes were posted which don't aim to foster a healthy debate about 
>real issues, but intend to spread hate against jews, gypsys, 
>gays...whoever.. 

The problem is that there are no real issues. At least nobody seems to care. 
This place is for mental health-care. Or you can take it simply as an 
international hospital. Nobody could take the bandwidth from "real issues" 
they simply don't seem to appear. If Andras Pellionis writes ten hate letters 
on four different names per week it will not harm anyone. But if he could not 
do it he may go and beat his neighbor and that would be really bad!

>
>Can the maintainer of this newsgroup block postings from 
>public.siliconvalley.com ? 
>
>If not, I suggest to remove the entire group from the usenet list.
>

I understand your point but please don't take our amusement. Anyway, who 
cares? One must only understand and we must write it every week : 
**************************************************************************
THIS NEWSGROUP HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH HUNGARY OR HUNGARIANS. PLEASE DO NOT 
FORM YOUR OPINION ACCORDING THIS NEWSGROUP.
**************************************************************************
>
>


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

..I wonder if there is empirical data on  cronyism in  the  work place,      
especially in times of downsizing and restructuring ? Are there any
safeguards beside the little offered by some collective agreements signed
by the employer and the worker representatives on places where a
segment of employees belong to a union or some sort of association ?
Even so, creative manipulation may side step the safeguards and
cronyism  may prosper.

   I have  heard arguments that  the practice of cronyism is older than
mankind.  In fact it dates back to the era when our distant ancestors
began to hop among the branches of trees. The dominant of the species
ensured that friends and relatives could scratch themselves safely beside
on the sturdiest of branches, especially in stormy weather. Eons have
passed, and modern men and women have created organizations with
inherent hierarchies and  the potential for placing the bosom buddies of
executives in choice positions. Today, we are told that it is a must for
many organizations to become leaner and meaner in order to survive
and to protect the jobs of the remaining employees.  Institutions that
pay only lip-service to the concept of efficiency and profits lend
themselves even more so to cronyism. 

History and tales told by people would indicate that executive branches
of organizations tend to be more prone to these practices than the rank
and file, even if the resulting impact on efficiency becomes contrary to
the stated objective of the appointment.

Although cronyism is a valid target for criticism, we can be certain that
in one form or another it will always be with us as part of the human
condition.  --- Unless there is no such thing in the first place .
                                                                            
                     

                                                      O. Mark. F.

PING! Access denied!

 (Gabor Barsai)typed:
:And some more:
:Brigitta Bali, you are the one,
:Who fills my days with loads of fun.
:Please keep on typing, don't let up,
:So all our servers will get jammed up.
:Oh, how do I become so good at anything I do???

In article >, George Lazar > wrote:
| My understanding is that the purpose of this newsgroup is to 
| exchange wiews related to the society and culture of Hungary. In 
| the last couple of weeks, a series of hateful (anti-jewish, 
| anti-gypsy, anti-gay, anti-romanian...) notes were posted from 
| public.siliconvalley.com. Individuals were attacked (Eva S. Balog); 
| notes were posted which don't aim to foster a healthy debate about 
| real issues, but intend to spread hate against jews, gypsys, 
| gays...whoever.. 
| 
| Can the maintainer of this newsgroup block postings from 
| public.siliconvalley.com ? 
| 
| If not, I suggest to remove the entire group from the usenet list.

Frankly... I would be strongly against either of the
measures. Many parties have violated the charter but does
that mean that discussion should stop or that people should
be forbidden to participate. Also, I don't htink that
forbidding them to post would be plausible, you can however
put them in a killfile so you don't have to see their
messages.

Istvan

In article >,
 > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| >
| >Ilona's claim however was not tha something is fishy
| >here. If that is what she said I would have had to
| >agree. Ilona's story doesn't measure up .. and if it ever
| >goes to court we'll see the rest. If Ilona will consult with
| >security experts and hasn;'t done that before her post was s
| >ent she might be in a nasty situation however. since her
| >storyas it is is not credible if the security experts find
| >out that Elek wasn't it or even if they can't proove that he
| >is it she may have libel on her hand. From her posting it
| >sounds like she is not proficient enough to be mnaking such
| >accusations, and since her story is not together I would
| >guess that she has not consulted those security experts. 
| 
| Well, I've had enough of your exercise in sophistry.

Hey.. you have the right to remain silent. Now if you
disagre with what I said why don't yuou point out factually
why and what you disagree with. 

My statements are

1) Ilona accused Elek of a criminal offense.
2) Elek posted a letter the origin of  which is unknown and
may and may not be illegal.
3) Elek posted a letter withouyt the permission of the
recipient and the sender of the original letter, which if I
am not mistaken is against netiquette but is not criminally
prosecuttable.
4) There is no evidence that Elek broke into the system or
that Elek asked someone to break into the system, hence
there is no evidence [that we are aware about] that would
make Elek guilty of any criminal activity.


| It's pretty obvious to me that even if Elek committed a murder, you
| would blame the victim for not being cautious enough.

I don't blame her for not being cautious enoiugh and I
expressed that if we fnid out who broke into an account I
agreee that that should be prosecudted. So should Ilona be
if she commited libel against Elek. Evenhanded enough. Don't
you think? See above...


| Since there is nothing new you or I can add to this controversy, it's
| best to let it rest and wait for the outcome of whatever Ilona decides
| to do about it.

Sure there is.. Ilona can press charges and Elek can as
well. The fact that we cannot pass judgement on what
happened may scare you, but I think it is just natural.

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
>|I think the misunderstanding comes from the fact that Ms. Bali equated
>|chicks with fluff-chicks (ie. like the women on the popular show
>|"Crotchwatch").
>
>Oh, as in bimbo? Haven't you been displaying the male equivalent the past
           ^^^^^
Da. Bimbo.
Me no think me display male equivalent (OK, maybe). Me think Wally display the
true quality of Canada: da Moosehead.

>couple weeks? You should WatchLessCrotchWatch -- it's bad for your Neilson
>rating.

Me no watch "Crotchwatch". Me no like bleached blondes with fake boobies.
Me watch "The Red Green Show" on PBS.
Ugh.

Goober

 (T. M. Lutas) wrote:

>In article >,  (Ferenc Istvan
>Vaski) wrote:
>> .....Really?....No...Transylvania is Magyar...and always will be....no
>> matter what type of "pogroms" or "relocation" or "cleansing" is
>> manifested on it......if not even one living ,breathing Magyar walks
>> on it's surface....Transylvania's soul will always remain Magyar...
>> you can twist and adjust figures,treaties  et al...as much as you
>> want...but anyone that seeks actual historical truth will always come
>> to the same conclusion....as I stated in my first post....you have
>> allowed  revisionist and objectified history to reach a point where
>> you actually believe it....if you want to seek out truth then look
>> beyond what you have been force-fed for decades....the things that
>> Romanians post regarding this matter so heavily indicate just how
>> warped a version of actual occurences they have come to believe....
>> Magyar resilience will allows come to forebear..."nem,nem,soja" is a
>> mantra that  lives within the souls of one of the worlds great
>> people... F.I.V.

>Funny, when the "Hungarians in Transylvania" series was posted, I gave
>some commentaries on how wrong a few of the points were. The church
>persecution points were most egregious but the ethnic figures that
>were cited in the census figures were startling for the pre-communist
>years. My responses were not responded to by 1 hungarian claiming that
>they were wrong or overblown or false in any way that I can remember.
>They simply sank into a general silence. I didn't use anything but my
>own knowledge of history and the figures posted by hungarians to counter
>the points.

>The problem with Hungarian propaganda from a hungarian perspective is that
>it is so often self-contradictory. You folks have gotten so lazy that you
>don't even really check your figures very much. Keep those softballs 
>coming, I love to knock them out of the park. 

>DB

>-- 
>Romanian Political Pages now are available
>http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

.....Propaganda?...check our figrures?...there is no need..history
cleaves in our behalf....not yours...your way is to CREATE figures
that fit the need....there is no question of laziness that exits
here....it is just simple truth's that have been manupulated for
generations on *your* folks part....trust me...at this point you
haven't even hit a "grounder"...if we are entering into a battle of
wits on this topic I am getting the distinct impression I am dealing
with someone that is unarmed...F.I.V.

In article >, Mpflerr > wrote:

>I have seen the interview on Larry King. I can't quote him verbatim,- -
>what I recall is that Brando said; the Hollywood establishment is all
>jewish and they are rotten. BUT before that statement he went on and on in
>great detail, how much he admires the jewish people. He also stated that
>all his children went to jewish schools; Larry King asked him why is that?
>Brando said; because the jewish schools are the best. That was all - the
>interview was over.

It's interesting (or not really), that the media only picked up the one
objectionable statement from that interview, out of context.
Regardless, I've just heard that since the negative publicity he
apologized for it with tears in his eyes.

I guess he still counts on some film rolls after all. ;-) 

Joe

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
>Carpathians where there is a better quality of flame-meisters. I've grown
>weary of you little witless Bics.

I guess that explains why you are not posting so much?

>|Whatever you read into it is up to you.
>
>Very profound. It must be quite a feeling of accomplishment to state the
>obvious. Did you have to consult with anyone?

Yeah, I went to the Templo de Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli to talk with Tlaloc.
You know, the katun will be ending soon.

>|I wasn't aware of the fact that you use it to mate with moose. (So tell
>|us, what's it like, eh?)
>
>Us Canadians are trained for it. We cause the horny devils to come out into
>the open then we kill them and eat them. It's always best with a side order

You equate mating with killing?

>of beaver. Have you eaten Canada's national animal?

A personal part of a woman is Canada's national animal? Yes, I like to eat 
beavers.

>|BTW, I'm sure Ms. Bali is offended that you equate chicks (ie. cute women
>|with a personality) with moose.
>
>Why don't you deflate your balls for a change and seriously ask her up
>front instead of waving the only element of character and personality that
>you have.

The question is there. She can choose to answer it.

Gabor

Wally Keeler > wrote:
>found curious, largely because I consider Hungary more economically and
>culturally advantaged than its former Warsaw Pact neighbours, especially
>Romania, where there is more reason for despair than in Hungary, yet the
>resilience of the Romanians, insofar as the suicide rate is concerned,
>exceeds that of the Hungarians. Why do you think this may be so?

> Joe Pannon wrote:
|Oh, maybe they want to see their old dream to come true in their
|lifetime: the River Tisza becoming Romania's northern border. ;-)

Given what you guys have been flushing downstream to them the past 1,000
years or so, can you blame them?
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Wally Keeler > wrote:
> You have a knack for riling that nest of tigani-burners.

> Joe Pannon wrote:
|Oh, dear!  You've figured me out!

That was 2+2=5 wasn't it?

or was it the square root of Roma Doma Ding Dung divided by the
MegaMagyarMorsels?
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Wally Keeler wrote :
>Listen honeybuns, you weren't dragged in. As I recall you willingly stepped
>into it by answering Gabor Barsai"s moose mating call: Here chick, chick
>chick chick, here chick chick chick.                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  

 (Michael Csiki)
|Hey!  Didn't I get enough insults about my name in elementary school?  
|Cut it out!!!!  ;););)  
|Mike Csiki (Pronounced Chickey)  ;) 

What!? You mean you graduated to secondary? Can we now call you Mike Csuki?
Here chuck, chuck, chuck. </chuckle,chuckle>
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >,
 > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| >
| >The difference is exactly that when you are talking about
| >information (such as this letter) it is impossible to trace
| >back the carrier of this information to the crime. If you
| 
| That's bull!  If Elek is subpoenad, he HAS TO tell where and how he's
| got that letter or he can be charged with contempt of
court.

Sure but that wsn't what we were talking about. I was
explaining why Elek may not be guilty of anything. He may
not know the original source and he may have obtained the
letter legally. This is what I was saying.   

| 
| >I konw that hits is not an exhaustive answewr, but I hope it
| >clears the difference up somewhat. This btw allows
| >journalists to be protected from criminal activities their
| >sources may have committed without their knowledge. 
| 
| First, Elek is no journalist, second, even journalists have been jailed
| for witholding information in court.

The issue here is not at all withholding informmation. The
issue is is Elek responsible for a crime he did nto  commit
and he may not have been aware of. Whether or not Elek is a
journalist is NOT a crucial point.

i want to no everything about the name(lastname)GREGUSS
THANKS

In article >,
 > wrote:
| Gyula Szokoly > wrote:
| >
| >  Talan azert, mert Ilona es Mr. X. nem haverok, es artani akart neki.
| >Tudta, hogy Elek orulne neki. Nem szuksegszeru, hogy felkeresre tegye.
| 
| Persze ez a variacio meg annyira sem valoszinu, mint az enyem. Ugyanis
| Elek mar Ilona elso jelentkezesetol kedve raszalt, amit senki masrol nem
| tudok.

Ertem.. tehat amit nem tudsz az nem is letezik.

  Mar akkor valahogy kinyomozta, hogy Viktoria es Ilona
ugyanaz.

Ami persze legallbbbis nem szep dolog. Csakugy mint
maganlevelet (email!) megjeleniteni az iro/cimzett
belegyezese nelkul.

| Az ilyesmit, amit meg en sem tudtam mindjart, azert nem talalnak ki csak 
| ugy veletlenul az emberek.  Ehhez aktiv szimatolas
kellett.

Tehat akkor most mar nem a levelrol beszelunk. Mar csak azt
kene megmutatnod hogy az az aktiv szimatolas illegalis
eszkozokkel tortent.

| 
| >A tortenelem soran annyi nevtelen feljelentes volt mar, *lehet*, ez
| >is csak egy kozuluk. A 'valoszinuleg', 'elkepzelheto hogy', es ehhez
| >hasonlo kijelentesek nem buntetojogi fogalmak.
| 
| Persze, hogy nem azok.  De a szamitogepbe valo betores az.  Azt hiszem,
| hogy eleg lenne az Ilonanak egy nevtelen tettes elleni feljelentest
| tenni, amire Eleket becitalnak, mint koronatanut. S akkor ott aztan meg
| kene mondania, hogy hogyan jutott a levelhez.  

Ez igaz...

Ezzel ugyan a botores
| vadat meguszhatja, de a szemelyisegi jogok megserteset egy privat level
| nyilvanossagra hozasaval -- aligha.  S azt hiszem az artani akarasrol
| sem kellene nagyon gyozkodni az eskudteket.

Most hallottam hogy az emailre nem vonatkozik a
leveltitok. persze ez lehet hogy ma mar nem igaz. Ha
buntetheto volt EZ ha nem, annyi igaz hogy nem volt szep dolog.

| >
| >  Igen, feltetelezhetjuk. Bizonyitva egyelore nincs. Igen, valoszinuleg
| >valaki elkovetett egy buntenyt. Meg ez sem biztos. Mint superuser
| >egy gepen, neha en is belebotlok maganlevelekbe. Minden szandekossag
| >nelkul. Neha emberek ugy el tudjak szurni a leveluket (pl. se felado,
| 
| Ezt el is hiszem, de akkor az Ilona fianak egyetemen az illetonek egy
| magyarul tudo Superusernek kellett lennie, aki azt is tudta kinek kell
| atpasszolnia azt a levelet.  Gondolom az Ilona fia konnyen
| kinyomozhatja, hany olyan magyar Superuser johet ott szoba.
| 
| >  Hany embernek van root accountja kettotok gepen? Ezeket kerdeztetek mar?
| 
| Azt hiszem, hogy nem az en gepemen tortent a dolog, s kulonben is az
| egesz nem is annyira account kerdes, mint password kerdes.
|

Thought I'd share my "poem" with our Romanian friends:

Attention! All rise! Order is now called by the great grandiose
dictator-for-life, the ruler supreme,
the fearless, the brave, the held-high-in-esteem,
Walllllllly the bold! Yes, stand up and hail
his humbleness now! May his wisdom prevail!

Three cheers for first lady, the really witty
Brigi, the delight of all cognoscenti!
She's savvy! She has a prodigious IQ,
and lots of panache, as all ladies do!
In her fancy chapeau, she's a leader with taste!
May her orders be heeded and her views be embraced!

What a great newsgroup!

Gabor

In article >,
T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>In article > Gabor Barsai,
 writes:
>>I think the only way to lower the suicide rate is to try to create better
>>economic conditions, instead of concentrating on moral issues, and being
>>judgemental.
>
>No way. This reasoning is an obvous cul-de-sac. The suicide rates inc-
>reased together with the Hungarian living standard. I  wouldn't say

Well, was the higher living standard because of better economic conditions, or 
heavy borrowing? The economy was still too centralized.
I still believe that with more responsibility, people would be less inclined to
kill themselves. Then again, maybe not.

Gabor

 (T. M. Lutas) wrote:

>In article >, Paul > wrote:

>> they're a minority and stop trying to segregate themselves. IF NOT, THEY 
>> SHOULD GET THE HELL OUT OF ROMANIA AND GO TO HUNGARY WHERE THEY BELONG!!! 

....they already ARE where they belong...in the truest sense of the
word...your people are the interlopers....

>> THEY CAN TAKE THE GYPSIES WITH THEM IF THEY WANT!!!! ROMANIA IS GONNA BE A 
>> BETTER PLACE TO LIVE IN IF ALL THE FUCKING GYPSIES GET OUT

.....I think anywhere that you AREn't  is the better place to be....

>I don't know. The Amish work out pretty well as a segregated society. If
>Hungarians wish to take an equivalent hit in living standards that is their
>choice. The problem lies in hungarians wanting the benefits of both 
>segregation (retaining all culture) and integration (normal standard of 
>living). It just isn't possible without declaring your own country or uniting
>with mother Hungary.

.....the benefits?...unbelievable the machinations of some minds...how
absolutely terrible....to want to retain your culture...!!!

>As for the gypsies, the least that we could do is stop taking them back for
>money. When Germany has an unwanted gypsy where do they send them? Romania.
>We shouldn't be the dumping ground of Europe for its gypsy problem. I don't
>like any government that takes money for the movement of people across 
>borders whether it's to move them out or to move them in. For those gypsies
>that aren't thieves, aren't criminals of other types I say welcome and try
>to integrate. This would still leave us with a sizeable gypsy population
>since I don't believe that anything more than a small minority are criminals.

>It's been studied to death the large number of crimes that a small number
>of people can commit. 1 or 2% of a community can create such a crime wave
>that everywhere people are convinced that criminals are ubiquitous and
>society is lost. The key is locking up these habitual predators (yes
>Oali, predators) and keeping the rest of us safe.

>DB

>-- 
>Romanian Political Pages now are available
>http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus

......what a grand vision you possess....F.I.V.

In article >,
Wally Keeler > wrote:
>Anna Smith wrote:
>|Oh poor Wally. With an attitude like that you'll never get a date.
>
>I have a lifetime date. Mmmmm!

You mean, your deux hands? Which do you prefer to date?

>Hey Goober, this one's majoring in vasectomies. Wanna be that sopranno you
>always dreamt of?

I dreamt of going to Yaxchilan, not being a sopranno. Are you trying to be
creative?

>I never made Goober out to be a pervert. You would be well advised to
>enroll in Betty Boops' Remedial Reading Course. I've been making Goober out
>to be banal, bland, boring, witless, and multimediocre.

Talking about Remedial Reading, where did I write about dreaming of being a
sopranno? Unless I was drunk out of my mind, I don't remember writing about
that.

Gabor

On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Ferenc Istvan Vaski wrote:


RE: TRANSYLVANIA BELONGS TO HUNGARY !
From:  (Ferenc Istvan Vaski)

>.....Really?....No...Transylvania is Magyar...and always
>will be....no matter what type of "pogroms" or "relocation"
>or "cleansing" is
>manifested on it......if not even one living ,breathing
>Magyar walks on it's surface....Transylvania's soul will always
>remain Magyar...
>you can twist and adjust figures,treaties  et al...as much
>as you want.

I  was going to leave this can of worms unopened, if not for
the  bitter  and poisonous overflow of the content  of  some
autistic  minds. I am talking acute memory challenged  minds
here.

Let   me   remind   you  that  Hungarian  governments   have
traditionally  shown much more aptitude for the  conduct  of
"pogroms",   "relocations"   and   last   but   not    least
"cleansings".

Unlike some of the intentionally misguided individuals  that
claim  to present the truth on this issue from the Hungarian
side,   I   will  confine  my  writings  to  the  verifiable
experience of my family in the city of "Nagyvarad".

Let's start with "pogroms" and "relocations". The last  time
a  Hungarian  government came to take control of "Nagyvarad"
was right after the infamous "Viena  Diktat".

At  the time, my grandfather, was working as a civil servant
for  the Romanian revenue services. He decided to leave  the
area  before  the  Hungarian government  took  control,  not
because he was worried about his personal safety but because
it  was  clear  that  he  will have no  livelihood  under  a
Hungarian administration
He was also a perfect example of the forced magyarization of
names,  he went by the name of Vasadi, born in the  entirely
Romanian  village of Sintandrei, as a child he did not  even
speak Hungarian.

Soon  after he left into an uncertain future  with his  wife
and  small daughter, a Hungarian administration took control
of the city.
The  only  funny  part is that his wife was  Hungarian,  and
spoke no Romanian at all.
She  was  from  the  Forgacs family, they built  the  oldest
standing Hungarian church in town.
Yet she chose to follow her husband, and was received very,
very kindly wherever she went in Romania.

Most   likely  at  the  urgings  of  extremist,  ugly,  sick
individuals  very  much like yourself,  said  administration
endorsed and conducted a "POGROM". They gathered most of the
better  to  do and (or) better educated Romanians  and  some
unfortunates  that were poor, but may have earned  someone's
grudge.   Some  were  murdered  outright,  one  man  lynched
downtown, in front of the theater.
Most  of  the  other were loaded on to cattle  railcars,  and
"RELOCATED" to Arad.  To add insult to injury, the  railcars
were  smeared with human excrement, bearing messages to  the
tune that Romania's `human refuse' is being returned....

This  said, let me remind you of "cleansings".   At the time
that   the   Hungarian  administration   took   control   of
"Nagyvarad",  the  city had a majority population  that  was
neither Hungarian nor Romanian. Over half the population was
Jewish.

Soon  the  cleansing  started. Teams  of  German  supervised
Hungarian   zealots,   gathered   up   the   Jews.   Slowly,
methodically,  they  were robbed, assaulted,  abused,  their
homes looted and the people gathered in a "getto". Trainload
by  trainload  they slowly took the way of the concentration
camps, in an outrage that belongs amongst the "mother of all
cleansings".

>but anyone that seeks actual historical truth will always
>come to the same conclusion....as I stated in my first
>post....you have allowed  revisionist and objectified history
>to reach a point where you actually believe it....
>if you want to seek out truth then look
>beyond what you have been force-fed for decades....

Force-fed for decades ? I am afraid you are optimistic,  say
centuries  !  Miron  Costin,  the  Moldovan  chronicler  was
claiming  in  the XV th century, that Romanians "originated"
from  Rome.   Way  before  Hungarian revisionist  historians
started  this  controversy about our continued  presence  in
Transylvania.


>>It's been studied to death the large number of crimes
>>that a small number of people can commit. 1 or 2% of a
>>community can create such a crime wave
>>that everywhere people are convinced that criminals are
>>ubiquitous and society is lost. The key is locking up these
>>habitual predators (yes Oali, predators) and keeping the rest
>>of us safe.
>>DB

>.....what a grand vision you possess....F.I.V.

I think the pot is calling the kettle black ! Hungarian
governments have proven themselves much more adept at
"pogroms", "relocations" and "cleansings", whenever the
opportunity presented itself.


m. cristian

>ECONOMICAL STANDPOINT
>From: T. Kocsis >

>In article >
>Hermes1,  writes:
>>If things keep going the way they go in Hungary, in a few years some
>>smartalec like Tokes will start claiming that Hungary belongs to
>>Transylvania, and likely Transylvania will be able to absorb Hungary,
>>at least from an economic standpoint

>Ach so.
>I hope Romania the best, but the numbers talk about a different
>story and suggest a different future.

                                   Hungary         Romania
>population (m)                       10.3            22.7
>GDP /capita ($)('95)              3,882            1380
>Average wage (monthly $)            328             110
>Foreign direct.investment
>   cumulative (9/95 bn $)            10               1,4
>   in 1995  (bn $)                1,041               0.07
>cost of living (work-
>hours/ basket of goods)             140             250
>Foreign exchange
>reserves (bn $)                    12.1           1,946
>Tamas


Precisely, this is what I meant !

>Foreign direct.investment
>   cumulative (9/95 bn $)            10               1,4
>   in 1995  (bn $)                1,041               0.07

Now, think ! Someday, in the very near future, it will be time to pay
the fiddler. All that money that was lent and invested in Hungary needs
to be repaid at an interest, or repatriated at a profit, whatever the case.

There is not a lot of industry, not a lot of resources, thus the near future
may start showing Hungary the middle finger in an upright position... as in
f.. you !

m. cristian

Wally Keeler > wrote:
> You have a knack for riling that nest of tigani-burners.

> Joe Pannon wrote:
|Oh, dear!  You've figured me out!

That was 2+2=5 wasn't it?
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

 (Gyorgy Kovacs) wrote:
|Boy, you make it too easy!
|You write:  "Ciao Gayorgy, It's been a bore!"
|I guess you ment boring. Well, held your attention for quite a few pages! 

My attention was held by futile attempts to provoke some original wit from
you, to inspire you to rise above the banality and blandness of your
postings. I failed.

|Or did you mean 1. A hole or passage made by drilling. 2. 
|The inside diameter of a hole, tube or cylinder. 3. Caliber of a firearm.
|4. A tool for drilling. (Websters II. New Riverside Dictionary (1984) 
|ISBN:0-425-10267-X p85.)

New Riverside Dictionary? This is the Harlquin Romance version of American
dictionaries. Get yourself a real one and you'll be less likely to be
"dumb". 

>The above quote that you refer to is totally without base --
>it's fiction. I'm a poet -- what the hell do you expect?

|For starters not confusing poetry with lies. Check the definition of
|poetry in the same dictionary.

Your dictionary is elementary school level. Poets ARE liars. The poets
have been saying it for centuries. You are ill literate aren't you. If you
want to talk poetry with me, you are way way out your league little
student. 

>Dumb relates to a person who is unable to speak, as in deaf and dumb. You 
>probably intended the word stupid.

|Gotcha: Websters II.  p218.:       dumb: 1. ... 2. ... 3. (Informal)
|Stupid.

Nope. I use a real dictionary. I use THE Dictionary. The Oxford English
Dictionary, Vol.3 p.711; DUMB:

1a. Destitute of the faculty of speech.
1b. Applied to the lower animals (and, by extension, to inanimate nature)  
    as naturally incapable of articulate speech.
1c. Without the power of making their voice effectively heard; without any 
    voice in the management of affairs.
1d. In proverbial phrases.
2.  Temporarily bereft of the power of speech, from astonishment, grief,   
    or some mental shock.
3.  That does not or will not speak; thatv remains persistently silent;    
    little addicted to speech; taciturn, reticent.
4.  Of things or actions: Not attended by or attended with speech or vocal 
    utterance
5a. Not emitting sound, unaccompanied or unattended by sound of any kind;  
    silent, mute; unheard, from the sound being drowned by a louder one.
5b. a muffled peal of bells.
5c. Giving no sound on percussion, as a tumour
6,  Applied to mechanical contrivances which take the place which take the 
    place of a human agent.

|What's your point? I never claimed to be a native speaker of English or a 
|linguist.

The point is that you are a semi-literate. My wife is Hungarian and she
had to undergo an English proficiency exam (written & oral) before she
could insert herself into a Masters program at the University of Toronto.
If you are relying on fluff dictionaries, then you will remain a fluff-
literate. It is street-corner literacy, not university quality. It is
informal as you say, but it is reflective of a mind that has not applied
any rigorousness to self-improvement.

|You still missed the informal meaning of the word, you poet! What 
|does that make you? Dumb? (2. Temporarily speachless, as from shock.)

I didn't miss the informality, my previous post commented on your street-
corner literacy. You missed the appropriate and meaningful word, you ill-
literate.

|So before you criticise my language, improve yours a bit!

First of all, throw out that pulp-ductionary, get a real one, and you'll
be less likely to make such hypocritical and ludicrous advice as above,
you ill-literate.

 (Gyorgy Kovacs)wrote:
>|Just for the record:
>|Last year, when Gabor presented his usual springtime question about
>|chicks in the newsgroup, I reminded him first that it's more respectful
>|</applause> to call them ladies, </applause> or women. </applause>
>|</whistle,whistle>

|The original was:
|"Just for the record:
|Last year, when Gabor presented his usual springtime question about
|chicks in the newsgroup, I reminded him first that it's more respectful
|to call them ladies, or women." 
|I don't need a cheering section like you do. I play good without them.

No ya dun't. The cheering section was composed of the politically-correct
cheering on your moral righteousness. They were dumb, so I gave them a
voice, because that is one of the things that poets do; I'm poetically
correct. Przt!

|Regards and good luck on your language studies,
|Gyorgy Kovacs                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

More proof of the VACUOUSNESS of KoVACUOUS. If English is your second
language, and it shows in your posts, then you have no base on which to
tell someone whose first language is English to study language. In terms
of English, you are, at the very best (I feel generous) 2nd rate, whereas,
I am 1st rate. Get it dumbbell? In Hungarian, relative to me, you are 1st
rate, and I am no where. That's the fact. Also, in terms of relativity, I
am first rate in English in terms of the general English population world
wide. So I'm telling you, here and now, shutup, sit down and learn
something for a change.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Ez egy probalevel.