Agnes-

Kezet csokolom.  Actually, there are vast numbers of Canadians that cross
the border because, although they have money, what they do not have is
time.  People, I am told, die on the waiting lists for medical treatment
in Canada.  I find this believable, especially when I hear that there are
more MRI gizmos in the state of Utah than in the whole country to the
North.

I am aware, though, that large numbers of people love the Canadian medical
system, as no doubt they love the Swedish one, etc.  The problem is not
that there are no good things about socialized medicine.  The problem is
that without a capitalist system to generate competition for clients, the
entire health-care system rejects research as too expensive, then fails to
pay doctors what they earn, then fails to allow for timely treatment of
patients.  Most of the medical advances are currently coming out of the
capitalist system, where new pharmaceuticals and technology are keys to
profitability.  Hungary has, per capita, the smartest population in the
world.  Why do Hungarians have to emigrate to get the funding for
research?

And this up a larger topic about why people feel entitled to medical care
that only a few years ago was the stuff of science fiction.  This
technology costs money to develop.  The developers must therefore be paid.
 The users must therefore pay.  The government cannot tax to pay for it,
else there will not be money for development.  Which leads to no research.
 Which leads to no development at all.

If Hungary will stop treating its medical system as a "free" benefit to
all by virtue of birth, it will take only a few years for Hungarians to
enjoy the highest standard of medical care, at the most reasonable cost,
on the planet.  America suffers from having costs propped up by a bloated
federal system and tilted playing field in favor of corporate medical
services.  Jerk that out from under, and you will find the actual costs
very low, reachable by the average person because the market dictates that
price level.  In the US we have too much socialized medicine, not not
enough.

I really think Hungary has a great chance in this area to do something
really beneficial for its people.

Udv.

Kristof

On Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:29:36 -0400, Aniko Dunford
> wrote:

>Barna:
><snip>
>According to the Hamlyn Book of Garden Flowers by Vladimir Mo:lzer, the
>following is documented.  Still looking at others.  Will get back to you.
>
>>I am still searching for the common English name of these flowers:
>>
>>   Consolida                           Szarkala'b
>I have found a Delphinium consolida, but have not found reference to
>Consolida alone.  The former is "larkspur"
>
>>   Helianthus tuberosus                Csicso'ka
>This one is odd.  Helianthus is derived from the latin word Helios (sun)
>and Anthos (flower) = Helianthus annuus, for which the common name is
>"sunflower".  Tuberosus would indicate a plant grown from a bulb, but
>sunflowers are grown from seed.  Could it possibly be a new hybrid of the
>traditional sunflower?
I thought csicsoka was artichoke or a close relative. Would that fit
with the Latin name?
I think mezei szarkalab is lackspur and delphinium is the "refined"
form
Eva.
````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
Eva Kende B.Sc. Author of Eva's Hungarian Kitchen
look for it at: http://kinga.com/cook.html
````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

At 06:02 AM 2/26/97 GMT, Kristof wrote:

>Agnes-
>
>Kezet csokolom.  Actually, there are vast numbers of Canadians that cross
>the border because, although they have money, what they do not have is
>time.  People, I am told, die on the waiting lists for medical treatment
>in Canada.  I find this believable, especially when I hear that there are
>more MRI gizmos in the state of Utah than in the whole country to the
>North.

You can keep your system and we'll keep and improve ours.  And, oh yes, a
few people may have died on waiting lists.  However, do you know, or even
want to know, that our lists were made long, because, several years ago,
many people from Buffalo, Detroit and other neighbouring cities and States
were illegally (ie: pretending they were Canadian!) crossing the border to
get good, and free!, medical coverage in Canada.  Ontario has now gone to
photo id to stop this problem.  If your system is so god-damn good, why do
your citizens resort to abusing ours?

Joe Szalai

At 06:02 AM 2/26/97 GMT, Kristof wrote:

<snip>
>And this up a larger topic about why people feel entitled to medical care
>that only a few years ago was the stuff of science fiction.  This
>technology costs money to develop.  The developers must therefore be paid.
> The users must therefore pay.  The government cannot tax to pay for it,
>else there will not be money for development.  Which leads to no research.
> Which leads to no development at all.

Reading the above, I can only conclude that Kristof has been seriously
brainwashed.  And, as with most brainwashed people, he doesn't know it.  The
only vindication for his condition, is to convince the rest of us that he's
right.  He's not.  His argument is just money-babble.

Joe Szalai

Ferenc Novak in connection with the road blockades of farmers:

>Are we reading different accounts of what's happening?  According to BLA, it
>is the minister of agriculture who avoids negotiating, even leaving the
>country (he is in France right now) during the current crisis.

Eva Balogh, on the other hand, read this in the same BLA:

>>Elutasitotta a kormannyal valo tovabbi targyalast a kiskorosi
>mezogazdasagi termelok szervezobizottsaga. Allitasuk szerint a
>kormany kiserletet tett arra, hogy a targyalokuldottseget - a fo
>kerdesek megtargyalasa helyett - reszletkerdesek vitajaba
>kenyszeritse.

        It is true that the minister of agriculture happens to be in France
at the moment, but the good old vintners refused to meet with the
negotiating team of the ministry, headed by an undersecretary of state.

        As for his other observations, starting with that 1 million forints
is only 6,000 dollars, one doesn't really know what to say. Because it is
the first 1 million forints after which the Hungarian farmers don't have to
pay either taxes or social security at the time when the GDP/person in
Hungary is less than 6,000 dollars!! The average salary is 540 thousand
forints per year and these people pay taxes and social security on every
penny of this amount. The fact is that the vintners of Kiskoros simply don't
want to give up their privilege of not paying taxes on a substantial portion
of their income. I wouldn't be surprised--given the widespread tax
fraud--that they haven't been paying taxes and social security for years!!
It is easy to say, living in Germany or in the United States: "Oh, it is
peanuts, only 6,000 dollars." But the fact is that 6,000 dollars is a lot of
money in Hungary and the farmers who are blockading the roads don't pay
their share. Yes, Hungarian taxes are too high but that is not the question:
the question is equal share of the tax burden.

        Oh, and one more thing. As one Hungarian interneter rightly pointed
out the vintners of Hungary manage to "make" so much wine that if they
remade them to grapes the whole country would be covered with vineyards
including downtown Budapest!!! Of course, this may be a slight exaggeration
for effect but the fact is that in Hungary the "making of wine" by adding
sugar and I don't know what else is commonplace. I know because around Pecs
everybody has a vineyard and I visited quite a few where the owners don't
even try to hide the fact that the wine is phoney. It tastes like it too.

        As for the state subsidy to farmers. Again the figure comes from a
very reliable source, an interneter from Hungary whose figures I wouldn't
doubt. Yes, it is twice as much as all the money the government spends on
education. In fact, at the very moment a courtcase is pending against
Hungary brought by four countries for unfair competition because of the
exceedingly high agricultural subsidies.

        I understand that the opposition is using the farmers' blockade to
their own advantage. Torgyan's Smallholders "sponsor" the action; the MDF
are also behind them. And I don't blame them. This is how politics work. If
I were Torgyan or Lezsak I would do the same. But that doesn't make the
farmers' action right. When salaried workers pay 60 some percent of their
income in taxes and social security I don't think it is too much to ask to
pay taxes on their first 1 million forints.

        Eva Balogh

At 01:14 AM 2/26/97 +0100, Miklos wrote, first quoting me:

>< Larger companies either
><hire foreigners (see Germany)
>
>it4s not that simple hiring foreigners, as it sounds
>and there are not so many. If they are residents they
>must be paid acording to the "tariffs". The foreigner,
>and the company would do need a license for this and
>this country is pretty much restrictive about that.
>There is a lot of illegal hiring around, however, in
>many cases for jobs, you wouldn4t find Germans for...

        Maybe a month ago there was a very interesting, long article in the
New York Times about the German situation. Specifically, they were talking
about the construction industry which is booming in the East but at the same
time there is unemployment. Employers, said the article, can't make it if
they hire German workers because of the added expenses and because strong
unions forbid work after 4 o'clock in the afternoon or overtime on weekends.
Thus, they hire foreigners, the highest paid being the English.

>I wouldn4t call that privileges. THEY PAY FOR THEM. And as I said, at
>least around here in Germany, they pay a lot. It is the ill designed
>structures getting upset as soon as the parameters ( e.g. demogra-
>phics shift ).

        Not just the demographic shift. I don't think that a country can
afford giving three-week spa treatment every second year free of charge to
every employee in the country. The population may pay for it but labor
becomes so expensive that the country looses its competitive edge in the
global economy. And this is exactly what is happening in Western Europe.

>The trouble is that most politicians and, probably, most citizens do
>believe, government, state, a4llam is there to promote, to foster the
>well-being, the welfare of their citizens

        Yes, but I am not even sure whether it is good for us to let the
state take responsibility for everything in our lives.

>A serious additional
>burden is the burocratic requirements posed upon the SMALL farmers who
>have difficulties to cope with them.

        You mean that they have to keep books and the poor "falusi bunkok"
can't fill out their income tax forms or keep receipts of their sales. This
is ridiculous. A lot of people can't fill out their tax forms in this
country. H&R on Our Block (or whatever its name) filled out 12 million tax
forms last year!!

>Do travel around in the Nyirseg, or other parts in the East, and you will
>feel differently.

        The blockade was not organized in the Nyirseg (which, by the way,
was always a poor region). It was organized around Kiskoros.

>Hold on! This sound like The Ministry of Agriculture a couple of weeks
>ago. He said, there was nobody to negotiate with and there was nothing
>to negotiate about. He needed road blocks to change the tune.

        Well, I am not sure either what there is to negotiate about. The
ministry's position is: pay taxes and pay social security. Of course, it is
easy to make the ministry back up and decide to negotiate when you block the
roads with your cars and tractors all over the country.

>They DID negotiate, the ministry4s delegates tried to filibuster...

        Surely, this is question of interpretation. It is hard to negotiate
in good faith when the farmers raised the anti. Now they demand 1.8 million
forints be exempt from taxes and social security.

        Eva Balogh

Dear Colleagues,

We are placing our Danube home page onto the 200 largest servers of the
World. In the past, we already had several hundred visitors a day, now it
will be thousands or more. Please help to make sure that all the facts we
have given there are ABSOLUTELY accurate. If you find an error, please let
Kriszti know, but be brief and specific, do not write editorials and be sure
of your facts. Kriszti does this on her own time, free of charge, in addition
to taking care of a family plus working. She was up last night too, so try to
help her: 

Our web-page is: http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Dear Colleagues,

We are placing our Danube home page onto the 200 largest servers of the
World. In the past, we already had several hundred visitors a day, now it
will be thousands or more. Please help to make sure that all the facts we
have given there are ABSOLUTELY accurate. If you find an error, please let
Kriszti know, but be brief and specific, do not write editorials and be sure
of your facts. Kriszti does this on her own time, free of charge, in addition
to taking care of a family plus working. She was up last night too, so try to
help her: 

Our web-page is: http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm

Best regards: Bela Liptak

Dear Colleagues,

We are placing our Danube home page onto the 200 largest servers of the
World. In the past, we already had several hundred visitors a day, now it
will be thousands or more. Please help to make sure that all the facts we
have given there are ABSOLUTELY accurate. If you find an error, please let
Kriszti know, but be brief and specific, do not write editorials and be sure
of your facts. Kriszti does this on her own time, free of charge, in addition
to taking care of a family plus working. She was up last night too, so try to
help her: 

Our web-page is: http://www.goodpoint.com/duna.htm

Best regards: Bela Liptak

>>   Helianthus tuberosus                Csicso'ka
That is Jerusalem Artichoke, which has edible roots (you dig them up
in the fall)
Elizabeth

At 09:22 PM 2/25/97 -0500, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

<snip>
>According to the Magyar Ertelmezo Szotar "csicso'ka" is an industrial and
>fodder- plant (this does not sound right, but it is from Orszagh for
>takarmany noveny),  related to the sunflower (called napraforgo' in
>Hungarian). According to this source it has edible roots.

Orszagh may be referring to "Jerusalem Artichokes", which are in the same
family.  Actually, they resemble small sunflowers.  And yes, the roots are
edible, cooked or raw.  They're really very good.  They taste a bit like
potatoes.

Joe Szalai

According to some, Hungarian agriculture has not been pampered for
years. Well, I don't know what to call a segment of society which gets
medical insurance and society security withouth paying for it. And this has
been the case not for years but for "decades." The lines below are from the
Magyar Narancs. Eva Balogh


>Az iden ev elejetol megvaltoztatott jogszabalyok a kistermeloket a
>tobbi vallalkozohoz hasonloan kezelik; ezzel ev(tized)ek ota
>ervenyben levo szabalyok valtoztak meg. A kistermelok mar nem
>tartoznak automatikusan a tarsadalombiztositas (tb) altal biztositottak
>korehez: havonta tb-jarulekot kell fizetniuk, es a minimalber
>feletti jovedelemmel rendelkezoknek at kell utalniuk a havi 1800 forintos
>egeszsegugyi hozzajarulast is.

In case, some of you don't get the BLA, here is the latest news. The
government caved. Now 1.5 million forints gross income is the threshold
under which one doesn't pay taxes and social security. You just announce: I
had X amount of income and it is under 1.5 million forints. Those who want
to itemize, they need only documentation on 20 percent of all goods sold.
They have to take out sales tax number only if their income is over 4
million. (I bet no one will!) They will pay less medical insurance and less
social security than the rest of the population.

        Original text below. A couple of more pieces of news. The MIEP
(Csurka's party) is organizing a solidarity rally in front of parliament.
Zavarosban halaszni--that's his plan obviously.

        Eva Balogh

>Nyolcoras, maratoni targyalas utan a kormany kepviseloi tegnap
>elozetes megallapodast kotottek az uj ado-es tb-intezkedesek ellen
>tunteto kiskorosi gazdak kepviseloivel. A kormany elfogadta, hogy a
>termelok evi brutto 1,5 millio forint arbevetelig adobevallas
>helyett nyilatkozatot tegyenek. Akik teteles koltsegelszamolassal
>dolgoznak, azoknak beveteleik minimum 20 szazalekaig kell szamlaval is
>rendelkezniuk. Vita volt a jovedelemhanyadrol: a kormany
>allattenyesztesnel 6, novenytermesztesnel 15 szazalekot, a
>termelok 5, illetve 10 szazalekot javasoltak. Az ostermeloi korbe
>soroltak a savanyusagot, a hordos szolobort. 4 millio forintos evi
>brutto bevetelig a termelok reszesulhetnek az afa-kompenzacioban is,
>az efolotti brutto bevetel folott kotelezo kivaltani a
>vallalkozoi igazolvanyt. A tb-kotelezettsegekben kismertekben
>visszavonult a kormany: akinek eleri a brutto evi 1,5 millio forintot a
>bevetele, az az 1800 forintos egeszsegugyi hozzajarulast es a 11,5
>szazalekos egeszsegugyi jarulekot (az elert jovedelemhez, illetve a
>minimalberhez viszonyitva) evi egy osszegben, igazodva a
>mezogazdasagi termeles ciklikussagahoz, november 30-aig fizetheti be.
>A nyugdijjarulek kotelezo 35 szazalekos merteke azonban csupan 30
>szazalek. A termelok akkor fogadjak el ezt a megallapodast, ha a
>kormany irasos garanciat ad (Uj Magyarorszag: A
>kotelhuzasnak...1.,5., Magyar Hirlap: Alku...1.,3., Vilaggazdasag:
>Elozetes megallapodas...1.,4.o.).

On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 09:22 PM 2/25/97 -0500, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >According to the Magyar Ertelmezo Szotar "csicso'ka" is an industrial and
> >fodder- plant (this does not sound right, but it is from Orszagh for
> >takarmany noveny),  related to the sunflower (called napraforgo' in
> >Hungarian). According to this source it has edible roots.
>
> Orszagh may be referring to "Jerusalem Artichokes", which are in the same
> family.  Actually, they resemble small sunflowers.  And yes, the roots are
> edible, cooked or raw.  They're really very good.  They taste a bit like
> potatoes.
>

This is it! We now have the answer. I verified it in two books, Susan A.
Roth's *The Weekend Garden Guide* describes the Jerusalem Artichoke, also
called sunchoke (Helianthus tuberosus) and Simon-Csapody's *Kis
novenyhatarozo* gives a description of Csicso'ka (Helianthus tuberosus) as
a perennial plant, grown primarily to feed game animals. Both books note
that it resembles the sunflower (napraforgo').

Barna Bozoki

On Wed, 26 Feb 1997, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

>         According to some, Hungarian agriculture has not been pampered for
> years. Well, I don't know what to call a segment of society which gets
> medical insurance and society security withouth paying for it. And this has
> been the case not for years but for "decades." The lines below are from the
> Magyar Narancs. Eva Balogh

And during those "decades", were they allowed to charge a "fair market
value" for their produce?  Perhaps it was a case of 'give and take'.  And
that's something many people, for whatever selfish reason, can't, or won't
understand.  Perhaps they only understand "take".

Joe Szalai

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
  Normal

Background:
   The International Court of Justice has elected a new President,
Stephen Schwebel, professor of law at The Johns Hopkins University in
America.  Since the new President probably does not know the details
about the upcoming Danube lawsuit yet, it is important that we inform
him.  It is likely that the new President would be receptive to a
letter campaign.
   We have to convince President Schwebel about the Compromise
Plan proposed by Bela Liptak and environmental organizations. This
plan ensures the survival of the Danube Wetlands.

What to do:
   Please send a letter to the new President of the World Court,
Stephen Schwebel.  Ask him to rule in favor of the environment; that
is, to consider the Compromise Plan.  Feel free to use the sample
letter below.  Unfortunately we do not have the e-mail address. Please
do not hesitate to send him a fax.  EVERY FAX IS IMPORTANT!!! PLEASE
ACT!! ASK YOUR FRIENDS TO JOIN YOUR REQUEST!!
   Fax number:  ++31-70-3649-928

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<date>

The Honorable Stephen Schwebel
President of the International Court of Justice
Carnegieplein 2, 2517 KJ,
Den Haag
The Netherlands
FAX: ++31-70-3649-928

Dear Mr. President:

Congratulations on your well-deserved appointment as the new
President of the International Court of Justice.  Your professional
background is sure to further increase the reputation of the Court.

This month, for the first time in history, your Court will decide on
an environmental lawsuit which affects all humankind.  In ruling on
the future of the Danube in the dispute between Hungary and Slovakia,
you and your fellow judges can set a precedent by ruling that rivers,
forests, and oceans are not the sole properties of nations, that
nations do not have the right to destroy unique ecosystems.

The ecosystem of the Szigetkoz is dying due to the tragic drop in
groundwater level which is caused by the rerouting of the Danube. This
region, which was the oxygen supply of the Danube, has been destroyed
because the lung of the river (the wetland region) has been cut out.
Shipping on the Danube has suffered because of flimsy construction and
because the dam is not designed to handle ice.  Most importantly, the
population of the region is in physical danger and two-thirds of the
populations of Dobrohost, Vojka and Bodiky have already fled.

The Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment has submitted to
the Court a Compromise Plan to return the Danube into its natural
riverbed.  I hope and trust that the Court will save the ecosystem of
the Szigetkoz by giving this Compromise Plan serious consideration as
it makes its historic ruling.

Respectfully,

<name, title, address>

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
  Normal

Background:
   The International Court of Justice has elected a new President,
Stephen Schwebel, professor of law at The Johns Hopkins University in
America.  Since the new President probably does not know the details
about the upcoming Danube lawsuit yet, it is important that we inform
him.  It is likely that the new President would be receptive to a
letter campaign.
   We have to convince President Schwebel about the Compromise
Plan proposed by Bela Liptak and environmental organizations. This
plan ensures the survival of the Danube Wetlands.

What to do:
   Please send a letter to the new President of the World Court,
Stephen Schwebel.  Ask him to rule in favor of the environment; that
is, to consider the Compromise Plan.  Feel free to use the sample
letter below.  Unfortunately we do not have the e-mail address. Please
do not hesitate to send him a fax.  EVERY FAX IS IMPORTANT!!! PLEASE
ACT!! ASK YOUR FRIENDS TO JOIN YOUR REQUEST!!
   Fax number:  ++31-70-3649-928

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<date>

The Honorable Stephen Schwebel
President of the International Court of Justice
Carnegieplein 2, 2517 KJ,
Den Haag
The Netherlands
FAX: ++31-70-3649-928

Dear Mr. President:

Congratulations on your well-deserved appointment as the new
President of the International Court of Justice.  Your professional
background is sure to further increase the reputation of the Court.

This month, for the first time in history, your Court will decide on
an environmental lawsuit which affects all humankind.  In ruling on
the future of the Danube in the dispute between Hungary and Slovakia,
you and your fellow judges can set a precedent by ruling that rivers,
forests, and oceans are not the sole properties of nations, that
nations do not have the right to destroy unique ecosystems.

The ecosystem of the Szigetkoz is dying due to the tragic drop in
groundwater level which is caused by the rerouting of the Danube. This
region, which was the oxygen supply of the Danube, has been destroyed
because the lung of the river (the wetland region) has been cut out.
Shipping on the Danube has suffered because of flimsy construction and
because the dam is not designed to handle ice.  Most importantly, the
population of the region is in physical danger and two-thirds of the
populations of Dobrohost, Vojka and Bodiky have already fled.

The Foundation to Protect the Hungarian Environment has submitted to
the Court a Compromise Plan to return the Danube into its natural
riverbed.  I hope and trust that the Court will save the ecosystem of
the Szigetkoz by giving this Compromise Plan serious consideration as
it makes its historic ruling.

Respectfully,

<name, title, address>

At 08:29 PM 2/25/97 GMT, you wrote:
>>        I am happy to announce that through my "secret channels" I
>received
>>news that Mr. Lippai will no longer argue with us about our
>anti-Hungarian
>>stance. Let's hope he keeps his word.
>>
>>        Eva Balogh
>>
>>
>Well, Eva, you must have powerful contacts ......
>
>Agnes
>
>Oersonaly I think the reason behind it is that he did not get any
encouragement
on Forum either.But I take Eva's effort,and good luck:Andy.

At 06:49 AM 2/26/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 06:02 AM 2/26/97 GMT, Kristof wrote:
>
>>Agnes-
>>
>>Kezet csokolom.  Actually, there are vast numbers of Canadians that cross
>>the border because, although they have money, what they do not have is
>>time.  People, I am told, die on the waiting lists for medical treatment
>>in Canada.  I find this believable, especially when I hear that there are
>>more MRI gizmos in the state of Utah than in the whole country to the
>>North.
>
>You can keep your system and we'll keep and improve ours.  And, oh yes, a
>few people may have died on waiting lists.  However, do you know, or even
>want to know, that our lists were made long, because, several years ago,
>many people from Buffalo, Detroit and other neighbouring cities and States
>were illegally (ie: pretending they were Canadian!) crossing the border to
>get good, and free!, medical coverage in Canada.  Ontario has now gone to
>photo id to stop this problem.  If your system is so god-damn good, why do
>your citizens resort to abusing ours?
>
>Joe Szalai
>
>Joe:you are right about false Ohip cards,but I think the NDP talked about phot
o
ID cards,but since then nothing happened.
It is a good idea,but according to Mike Harris,it cost too much.
Than he couldn't cut taxes,wich is why we will get less and less service in
Ontario.
Am I right?Andy.

At 08:26 PM 2/25/97 GMT, you wrote:
>>which begs the question -- why not leave the money in the hands of those
>>who earned it, and let them pay for those services they use.  Elsewise,
>>you have people who don't get sick being forced (taxes are compulsory)
>to
>>pay the hospital costs of those that do, and those with no children
>>supporting the education of the offspring of others.
>>
>Kristof, I live in Canada and I have to say that I am enormously grateful
>for medicare.  I hear horror stories about what is happening if someone
>becomes seriously - or even not so seriously - ill in the US.  It is
>great in the US if you young and healthy.  Yes, we pay a lot of taxes and
>medicare is not perfect, but I wouldn't like to get sick in the US!
>
>Agnes
>
>Agnes:az a fellow canadian,I am vorried what is going to happen to our
medicare.
If you hear and see all the hospital closing,nurses being laid off,I realy
wonder about our healthcare.Just watch,and see what is going on in Ontario.
In the mean time the banks are getting more and more profitable,the children
will suffer,the oldtimers will suffer,and many more.
Is there realy any hope?Andy.

Dear Colleagues,

If any of you have reason to reach the main participants at the International
Court, here is their list:

ALL Can be reached at:
tel:011-33-70-302-2323, or fax: 011-33-70-364-9928)

The Honorable Professor Stephen M. Schwebel (president of ICJ),

The members of the Court are:
Shigeru Oda of Japan, Gilbert Guillaume of France, Mohamed
Shahabuddeen of Guyana, Christopher G. Weeramantry of Sri Lanka, Raymond
Ranjeva of Madagascar, Géza Herczegh of Hungary, Shi Jiuyong of China, Carl-
August Fleischhauer of Germany, Abdul G. Koroma of Sierra Leone, Vladlen S.
Vereshchetin of the Russian Federation, Luigi Ferrari Bravo of Italy and
Rosalyn Higgins of the United  States

The registrar of the Court is:
Jean-Jacques Arnaldez 

Slovakia's representatives and attorneys (List not yet finalized):
Representative: Peter Tomka
Attorneys:
Prof. Derek Bowett of Cambridge resigned on February 26, 1997
Rosalyn Higgins (due to a higher appointment) resigned
Krzystof Skubisewski

Hungary's representative and attorneys:
Representative: Gyorgy Szenasi
Attorneys:
prof. James Crawford of Cambridge
prof. Boldizsar Nagy of ELTE
prof. Laszlo Valki of ELTE 


Bela Liptak

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:	 (Radu Murgescu)
Sender:	
Reply-to:	
To:	
Date: 97-02-26 16:29:27 EST

>From: Radu Murgescu >
To: 
Subject: RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
 United States Secretary of State
 U.S. Department of State
 2201 C Street, NW
 Washington, DC 20520
 ( E-Mail:  )
 
 RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague
 
 Dear Madame Secretary:
 
 Please accept my congratulations on your well deserved appointment,
 which to us Americans with Central/Eastern European roots gives a   
special ray of hope. We hope for even greater American understanding   
and compassion for the people of Central/Eastern Europe, for their  
progress and stability.
 
 Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
 for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
 beginning next week in the Hague. This new tone would be  consistent
 with the US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and
 Eastern Europe, and to engage the US more actively in helping resolve
 emerging inter-country conflicts in the Region by (i) urging your West
 European partners to assist more pro-actively; and (ii) calling on
 both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the Compromise Plan
 prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby cooperate in the quest
 for a solution that can set an example for the future.
 
 Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
 with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
 issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
 (multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
 forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
 bilateral agreements that had been drawn up by non-representative
 governments under a regional policy framework which was imposed by
 Moscow.
 
 Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
 international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
 interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
 but would be fulfilling an American obligation by so doing. This is,
 because it was the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between
 Czechoslovakia and Hungary and it was that  Treaty which named the
 Great Powers as the guarantors of the integrity of the two nation's
 territories. The Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have
 the right to make changes, unless the Great Powers first approve of
 the change. Yet in 1977, under Soviet direction, the two nations
 signed a contract to move the Danube, previously their border river,
 into an artificial canal on Slovak territory. For so doing, they did
 not ask, nor did they receive the approval of the Great Powers.
 
 Madame Secretary. The International Court of Justice must be advised
 that the Moscow initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
 because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
 legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
 her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
 importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
 that the Danube is returned into its riverbed and thereby the
 stability of the region is maintained.
 
 Madame Secretary, a single statement from you may greatly help to
 resolve this issue.
 Please make that statement.
 
 Respectfully yours,
 
	Radu Murgescu Jr.
	Member of the Romanian Lobby
	18824 Tupelo Lane
	Dallas, TX 75287
	(972) 306-8129

At 04:18 PM 2/26/97 +0100, Magda Zimanyi wrote, quoting me:

>> [...]  I cannot agree more. But in Europe a form of welfare state developed
>> in the last thirty or forty years which takes away about fifty percent of
>> one's earnings and "redistributes" them in forms of social services.
>> [...]
        And then Magda continued:

>I would like to call attention to a difference between Western Europe
>and Hungary as far as "welfare state" is concerned. It is true that in
>Western Europe the state has taken a large percentage of one's
>earnings and redistributing them in forms of social services. The
>situation in Hungary was and is somewhat different. When socialism was
>introduced in Hungary -- in the late forties and at the beginning
>of the fifties -- then the state -- or more exactly, the party --
>declared that it is not necessary that people get all their earnings,
>because the state will take care of their needs. So wages were fixed
>on a rather low level saying that the costs of health-care, pensions,
>children's care, housing and so on will be covered by the state, so it
>is not necessary to include the costs of them in the wages.

        This is, of course, basically right, but I would like to use a bit
more exact description than "So wages were fixed on a rather low level
saying that the costs of health-care, pensions, children's care, housing and
so on will be covered by the state." Yes, wages were fixed low but prices
were also fixed low. This was an economic model which we normally refer to
as "centrally planned economy," where wages and prices have nothing to do
with market forces. They have nothing to do with supply and demand and
therefore totally devoid of any meaning. There was a Plan Office
(Tervhivatal) whose job it was to set production quotas and fix prices from
bread to energy.
        As it turned out this centrally planned economy was unable to
function properly and adjustments had to be made. At the end of the 1960s
certain economic reforms took place which liberated some of the factories
from the fixed production quotas (but fifty or so factories, considered
important, remained under central authority) and liberated some of the
prices but not prices which the regime considered to be vital to the living
standards of the population. As a result, the economy picked up somewhat but
at the same time inflation also raised its ugly head because basically the
economy remained a command economy and an economy of scarcity.
        But to return to Magda's point: yes, the wages were low but the
whole price structure also remained low and, I guess, as long as that system
remained in force the two were in balance. Magda is also right about the
fiddling with the system from the late 1960s on, trying to make it more
effective by allowing some price fluctuation and giving more leeway to
factories concerning production quotas. This, of course, upset the neat
balance between prices and wages, yet, overall, the purchasing power of wage
earners rose through the seventies and early eighties.
        So far I was talking about wages and prices. But what about the
welfare system? Professor Janos Kornai called the Hungarian socialist
economy "premature welfare state." As far as I can ascertain without raising
taxes inordinately directly or indirectly more and more social benefits were
added to the welfare package, starting with including agricultural workers
into the state pension plan and ending with allowing new mothers to stay
home with their children for three years with 75% of their wages. More and
more people ended up on the disability rolls, and so on and so forth. Most
of this was financed from foreign loans. The results of these borrowings are
only too well today. The repayment of these loans is perhaps the largest
obstacle to economic growth in Hungary since the change of regime.
        But returning to the troubles of today. Yes, wages are low mostly
because the state is so strapped for money and still an awful lot of people
are on the government rolls: teachers and doctors, just to mention two
important professions. But the flight from government service is great. I
just read somewhere that the lawyers who remained with the Ministry of
Justice are not on the top of their professions. All the good people left
for the private sector. The private sector's salaries are, of course, are
higher. And, by the way, as long as public employees have such a large share
of the employment pie and as long as the state has practically no money
wages are not going to increase.

>Summarizing, IMHO the Hungarian situation is different from that of
>Western Europe in that respect that in Hungary people never received
>their real earnings. But now the state is taking from the people
>something they never really received.

        But Magda, the trouble is that given the artificial situation we
don't know what that "real earnings" actually were!! In a world where prices
and wages are fixed we have no way of attaching a real, meaningful price to
labor or products for that matter.

        In connection with the road blockade of the vintners of Kiskoros:

>IMHO I would not be so sure that the farmers are so well off. A few
>days ago the Central Office for Statistics in Hungary produced the
>following data: the minimum subsistence level was in Hungary 15.000
>HUF/month (at about 86 USD/month) in the year 1996. 2.5-3 million
>people are living below that level. Many of them are peasants living
>in villages.

        IMHO, the statistics when it comes to income of private farmers are
practically useless. The poor Central Statistical Office simply has no data
because the  private farmers never had to fill out any meaningful, itemized
income tax forms. It was enough to present a piece of paper, saying "our
gross income was 850,000 Fts," and that was that! Not only that but by not
filling out itemized forms the central authorities have no idea from what
crops the money came from.

>As far as I know the 1 million income mentioned in the papers was
>gross income and not net income.

        I think I mentioned the fact that it was gross income. But I can't
imagine any country where after your first 6,000 dollars you don't pay anything
.

>According to a spokesperson of the
>farmers the farmers state that they need to produce at about 1.6
>million HUF gross income/year in order to reach the minimum
>subsistence level (considering taxation, social security and
>expenditures). Of course I am in no position to confirm their
>calculations.

        Well, yes, this is what they say. However, as it turns out
"cooperatives" don't have that privilege; they have pay taxes and social
security on all their earned income. The leaders of the cooperatives
complained bitterly, saying that it was unfair. Well, I think also that it
is unfair. It is also unfair to you, Magda, who has to pay relatively more
than they have to. You are carrying their share of the tax burden.

>> Result: fighting tooth and nail and
>> organizing road blocks all over Hungary. Meanwhile, they refuse to negotiate
>> with the government. Their representative simply don't show up because they
>> know that a roadblockade will be devastating for the country and sooner or
>> later the government will give in.
>
>The road blockade of the farmers this week was rather different from
>that of the "taxi drivers' blockade" in 1990.  The present road
>blockade -- in contrast to the "taxi drivers' blockade" -- was not
>devastating for the country. Then the taxi, bus and lorry drivers
>really blocked all the main bridges, roads and border stations and
>there was practically no traffic possible for several days in the
>country. Now the farmers blocked only a traffic lane of the roads and
>only in given places -- several dozen places all over the country --
>so traffic was only slowed down but was not made impossible.

        However, they threatened to do a little more if the government
doesn't cave in. And, by the way, in case anyone is in doubt: the change in
the tax law was duly voted on by parliament; it wasn't some kind of
government fiat!

>News from this morning: last night the representatives of the farmers
>and the representatives of the government reached an agreement in
>Kiskoros (a small town near the Danube southwards of Budapest).  The
>representatives of the government had to go to Kiskoros for the
>negotiations.

        Yes, because the wine-growers refused to go the ministry. They knew
that they had the upper hand.

        Greetings, Eva Balogh

---------------------
Forwarded message:
From:    (Radu Murgescu)
Sender: 
Reply-to:       
To:     
Date: 97-02-26 16:29:27 EST

>From: Radu Murgescu >
To: 
Subject: RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

The Honorable Madeleine Albright
 United States Secretary of State
 U.S. Department of State
 2201 C Street, NW
 Washington, DC 20520
 ( E-Mail:  )

 RE: First Environmental Lawsuit (Danube) in The Hague

 Dear Madame Secretary:

 Please accept my congratulations on your well deserved appointment,
 which to us Americans with Central/Eastern European roots gives a
special ray of hope. We hope for even greater American understanding
and compassion for the people of Central/Eastern Europe, for their
progress and stability.

 Madame Secretary, you now have a great opportunity to set a new tone
 for American policy in connection with the Danube lawsuit, which is
 beginning next week in the Hague. This new tone would be  consistent
 with the US policy of expanding Western structures to Central and
 Eastern Europe, and to engage the US more actively in helping resolve
 emerging inter-country conflicts in the Region by (i) urging your West
 European partners to assist more pro-actively; and (ii) calling on
 both parties (Hungary and Slovakia) to accept the Compromise Plan
 prepared by the environmental NGOs and thereby cooperate in the quest
 for a solution that can set an example for the future.

 Your help in resolving the Danube problem would also be consistent
 with the present US policy based on a global approach to environmental
 issues and on seeking to mobilize all relevant political
 (multilateral, international, non-governmental and civic society)
 forces to assist in avoiding environmental catastrophes caused by
 bilateral agreements that had been drawn up by non-representative
 governments under a regional policy framework which was imposed by
 Moscow.

 Therefore please exert your influence on the outcome of the first
 international environmental lawsuit in human history. You would not be
 interfering in the operation of the International Court of Justice,
 but would be fulfilling an American obligation by so doing. This is,
 because it was the Paris Peace Treaty which set the border between
 Czechoslovakia and Hungary and it was that  Treaty which named the
 Great Powers as the guarantors of the integrity of the two nation's
 territories. The Treaty also stated that the two nations DO NOT have
 the right to make changes, unless the Great Powers first approve of
 the change. Yet in 1977, under Soviet direction, the two nations
 signed a contract to move the Danube, previously their border river,
 into an artificial canal on Slovak territory. For so doing, they did
 not ask, nor did they receive the approval of the Great Powers.

 Madame Secretary. The International Court of Justice must be advised
 that the Moscow initiated 1977 Contract was and is INHERENTLY INVALID,
 because it is in conflict with the Paris Peace Treaty. It is both the
 legal obligation and the moral duty of the United States to fulfill
 her role as a guarantor of the Paris Peace Treaty. Even more
 importantly, it is in the interest of the United States to make sure
 that the Danube is returned into its riverbed and thereby the
 stability of the region is maintained.

 Madame Secretary, a single statement from you may greatly help to
 resolve this issue.
 Please make that statement.

 Respectfully yours,

        Radu Murgescu Jr.
        Member of the Romanian Lobby
        18824 Tupelo Lane
        Dallas, TX 75287
        (972) 306-8129

Sorry but after I had sent my answer, prompted by Magda Zimanyi's
letter, to HUNGARY, I reread the piece and suddenly I realized that I left
out an important point.

        When discussing wages which by all accounts are very low I forgot to
mention the possibility of paying much higher wages to the wage earners. Can
you imagine what would happen to inflation? At the beginning of last year as
it was the inflation rate was around 30 percent. They managed to push down
that rate to 18 percent or so by the end of the year by reducing real wages
by about four percent. Can you imagine what would happen if, let's say,
wages were suddenly doubled. Hungary could easily end up with an inflation
rate of 60 percent a year.

        Best, Eva Balogh

Testing, testing. How's my reverb sound? The AOL folks have now managed to
goober up their newsgroup gateway so that the same messages keep
propagating three or four times and nothing new gets through. It's been
like this since the end of last week. I'm trying to see if I can get
anything out. I've been posting a few things, but they're not showing back
up. I hope everyone is doing well.
Sam Stowe
"Avalanche or roadblock?
I was a snowball in hell..."
-- They Might Be Giants

At 10:22 PM 2/26/97 GMT, you wrote:
>Testing, testing. How's my reverb sound? The AOL folks have now managed to
>goober up their newsgroup gateway so that the same messages keep
>propagating three or four times and nothing new gets through. It's been
>like this since the end of last week. I'm trying to see if I can get
>anything out. I've been posting a few things, but they're not showing back
>up. I hope everyone is doing well.
>Sam Stowe
>"Avalanche or roadblock?
>I was a snowball in hell..."
>-- They Might Be Giants

        Sam, it is time to dump AOL. Eva

Dear Colleagues!

I am told, that in order to get the attention of the boss, we should make the
staff also aware. So IN ADDITION (not in place of) our e-mail, fax,
snail-mail campaign directed to Mr. Gore, please also send a few faxed copies
to the following:

Executive Assistant to the Vice President: Heather Marabeti

Deputy Chief of Staff: David Strauss

Director of Political Affairs: Karen Elizabeth Skelton

fax number: 202-456-7044

address: (all 3 aides mentioned are at the same address, as is the Vice
President's personal office).

Room 276, Old Executive Office Building
Washington, DC  20501

Best regards: Bela Liptak

BACKGROUND TO THE PROCEDURE BEFORE THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE IN THE
HAGUE

The Case Concerning the Gabcikovo-Nagymaros Project was submitted to the
jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice by the Special Agreement
between the Republic of Hungary and the Slovak Republic dated 7 April 1993.
 The Special Agreement requests the Court

(1) ... to decide on the basis of the 1977 Treaty and rules and principles of
general international law, as well as such other treaties as the Court may
find applicable
a)      whether the Republic of Hungary was entitled to suspend and subsequentl
y
abandon in 1989 the works on the Nagymaros Project and on the part of the
Gabcikovo Project for which the Treaty attributed responsibility to the
Republic of Hungary;
b)      whether the Czech and Slovak Federal Republic was entitled to proceed, 
in
November 1991, to the "provisional solution" and to put into operation from
October 1992 this system, described in the Report of the Working Group of
Independent Experts of the Commission of the European Communities, the
Republic of Hungary and the Czech and Slovak Federal Republic dated 23
November 1992 (damming up of the Danube at river kilometer 1851.7 on
Czechoslovak territory and resulting consequences on the water and navigation
course);
c)      what are the legal effects of the notification on May 19, 1992, of the
termination of the Treaty by the Republic of Hungary.
(2)  The Court is also requested to determine the legal consequences,
including the rights and obligations for the Parties, arising from its
Judgment on the questions of paragraph (1) of this Article.

In accordance with the time-table set by the Court, the Parties submitted
written Memorials on 2 May 1994, Counter-Memorials on 5 December 1994 and
Replies on 20 June 1995.  Oral hearings are scheduled to commence with the
Hungarian presentation at the Peace Palace in the Hague on 3 March 1997.
During the proceedings, the Court will visit the area of the dispute to
inspect the works and observe its operation and impacts.

A BRIEF SUMMARY OF THE ARGUMENTS

I.      Hungary's Case

Hungary argues that work on the down-stream section of the
Gabcikovo-Nagymaros Project was validly suspended due to serious concerns as
to the impacts of the construction and operation of the complex
hydro-electric barrage system on environment and water supply.  No
comprehensive environmental impact assessment had been undertaken in
conjunction with the Project's design, and Hungary requested a temporary
suspension of works while scientific investigations were carried out.  It
called for appropriate design modifications and remedial measures to be
implemented on the basis of those studies, especially to ensure the
protection of the aquifer which lies beneath the Szigetköz region.

The treaty for the construction of the Gabcikovo-Nagymaros barrage system was
validly terminated by Hungary after Czechoslovakia refused to suspend work on
the Original Project pending the outcome of the proposed studies, and after
it commenced work on a unilateral option for the diversion of the Danube at
Cunovo.  Hungary argues that "Variant C" is contrary to the terms of the 1977
Treaty, and represents an unlawful appropriation of Hungary's rights to the
waters of the Danube.  It claims damages for the illegal diversion of the
river and for the resulting negative impacts in the environmentally rich and
sensitive flood plain region of the Szigetköz.

The negative impacts of "Variant C" cover a wide spectrum and have both
immediate and long-term implications.  Reduced water-flow and falling ground
water levels have had a direct effect on flora, fauna, agriculture, forestry
and fisheries. Indirect effects are on wetland ecosystem functions, the water
recharge and on the biological and chemical qualities of both surface and
groundwater. In addition to the impacts to the natural values of the region,
there are considerable social and economic costs for the present and future
generations.

II.     Slovakia's Case

In contrast, Slovakia asserts that the suspension and abandonment of works
relating to the barrage system was unlawful, that Hungary's environmental
concerns were not genuine, that an adequate environmental impact assessment
had already been carried out, and that remedial measures implemented after
the completion of the Project would have been sufficient to regulate any
negative impacts.  It argues that the Treaty is still in force and that
Hungary is legally obliged to complete and operate the Gabcikovo-Nagymaros
Barrage System as originally envisaged.  It also claims damages to compensate
for the various alleged Hungarian breaches.

HUNGARIAN LEGAL AND SCIENTIFIC COUNSEL

The preparation of the Hungarian case is the responsibility of a team of top
Hungarian and foreign international lawyers and scientists. The International
Law Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs under Dr. György Szénási,
Agent for the Republic of Hungary before the International Court of Justice,
provides overall supervision and coordination for the case.  The preparation
of the Hungarian pleadings has involved extensive cooperation with the
Ministry for Environment and Regional Policy and the Ministry of Transport
and Water Management as well as other responsible government agencies all of
which have provided considerable assistance in the collection and analysis of
scientific data. A team of scientists from the Hungarian Academy of Sciences
under the leadership of Professor Istvan Lang has undertaken research related
to the issues

The Hungarian legal team is led by Professor László Valki, Head of the
International Law Department at the Eötvös Loránd University of Budapest,
Professor Boldizsár Nagy (also of Eötvös Loránd University).  Additional
contributions have been made by Professor János Bruhács of the Janus
Pannonius University of Pécs, and Professor Vanda Lamm, Director of the
Institute of Political and Legal Sciences.  Foreign counsel are headed by
Professor James Crawford of Cambridge University in the UK, a distinguished
international jurist and member of the International Law Commission,
Professor Pierre-Marie Dupuy of the Institut des Hautes Etudes
Internationales in Paris both experienced practitioners before the
International Court, and Professor Alexandre Kiss, the respected
environmental lawyer of the University of Strasbourg. Philippe Sands, Reader
in International Law at the University of London, School of Oriental and
African Studies and Global Professor of Law at New York University and
Katherine Gorove a visiting Professor at the University of Budapest make
strong contributions and will also present before the Court.

The science team is composed of many respected Hungarian scientists and
engineers including members of the Academy of Sciences.  Professor Gabor
Vida, a member of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences, will initiate the
scientific presentation. International expertise is provided by Professor
Howard Wheater of Imperial College, London, a specialist in hydrology, and
Dr. Klaus Kern of Karlsruhe in Germany, an experienced consulting engineer
specializing in river morphology and restoration.   Professor Roland
Carbiener of Strasbourg will provide comparisons with the international
experience of the Rhone and Rhine. 

The Hungarian Government is convinced of the strength of its case, and
confident of a satisfactory outcome to the proceedings at The Hague. It looks
forward to a judgement of the International Court which confirms the legality
of its position in international law, provides for the equitable distribution
of the flow of the river Danube and guarantees sufficient environmental
safeguards to secure the long term protection and sustainable use of the
region's valuable natural resources.

THE REPRESENTATIVES OF HUNGARY:

The Republic of Hungary,
represented by

H.E. Mr. György Szénási, Ambassador, Head of the International Law
Department, Ministry of Foreign Affairs,

as Agent and Counsel;

H.E. Mr. Dénes Tomaj, Ambassador of the Republic of Hungary to the
Netherlands

as Co-Agent;

Mr. James Crawford, Whewell Professor of International Law, University of
Cambridge,
Mr. Pierre-Marie Dupuy, Professor at the University Panthéon-Assis (Paris II)
and
       Director of the Institut des hautes études internationales of Paris,
Mr. Alexandre Kiss, Director of research, Centre National de la recherche
Scientifique (ret.)
Mr. László Valki, Professor of International Law, Eötvös Lorand University,
Budapest,
Mr. Boldizsár Nagy, Associate Professor of International Law, Eötvös Loránd
University, 
       Budapest,
Mr. Philippe Sands, Reader in Law at the School of Oriental and African
Studies, University 
       of London; Global Professor of Law, New York University;
Ms. Katherine Gorove, consulting Attorney,

as Counsel and Advocates;

Dr. Howard Wheater, Professor of Hydrology, Imperial College, London,
Dr. Gábor Vida, Professor of Biology, Eötvös Loránd University, Budapest;
Member of the
       Hungarian Academy of Sciences,
Dr. Roland Carbiener, Professor emeritus of the University of Strasbourg,
Dr. Klaus Kern, consulting Engineer, Karlsruhe,

as Advocates;

Mr. Edward Helgeson,
Mr. Stuart Oldham,

as Advisers;

Dr. György Kovács,
Mr. Timothy Walsh,

as Technical Advisers;

Dr. Attila Nyikos

as Assistant;

Ms. Éva Kocsis
Ms. Katinka Tompa

as Secretaries.

At 06:02 AM 2/26/97 GMT, Kristof wrote:

<snip>
>And this up a larger topic about why people feel entitled to medical care
>that only a few years ago was the stuff of science fiction.  This
>technology costs money to develop.  The developers must therefore be paid.
> The users must therefore pay.  The government cannot tax to pay for it,
>else there will not be money for development.  Which leads to no research.
> Which leads to no development at all.

<Reading the above, I can only conclude that Kristof has been seriously
<brainwashed.  And, as with most brainwashed people, he doesn't know it.  The
<only vindication for his condition, is to convince the rest of us that he's
<right.  He's not.  His argument is just money-babble.

<Joe Szalai

C4mon Joe, you have much better ammunition than this, I am sure. Con-
vince him, let him learn, where he is blind on the eyes...you don4t
need this tune, you are much better than that. Attack the problem, not
the person. Though, I admit, this is not always easy for me....

Unfortunately, I have to leave NOW for Budapest for a few days, have to
have catch my plane and no time to discuss with Kristof, what I4d love.
Again, I AM a preacher of the MARKET and, if you like, of (differentiated)
capitalism. Arguments like the ones of Kristof make us life difficult and
convince people of leftist ideas, which I not not share.

Regards
Miklos

Dear listmembers,

a few remarks about welfare state and farmers' blockade.

Eva Balogh > wrote in  HUNGARY #924:

> [...]  I cannot agree more. But in Europe a form of welfare state developed
> in the last thirty or forty years which takes away about fifty percent of
> one's earnings and "redistributes" them in forms of social services.
> [...]

I would like to call attention to a difference between Western Europe
and Hungary as far as "welfare state" is concerned. It is true that in
Western Europe the state has taken a large percentage of one's
earnings and redistributing them in forms of social services. The
situation in Hungary was and is somewhat different. When socialism was
introduced in Hungary -- in the late forties and at the beginning
of the fifties -- then the state -- or more exactly, the party --
declared that it is not necessary that people get all their earnings,
because the state will take care of their needs. So wages were fixed
on a rather low level saying that the costs of health-care, pensions,
children's care, housing and so on will be covered by the state, so it
is not necessary to include the costs of them in the wages.

Later on the state gradually decided that it is a too great burden for
it to take care of people's needs. So it started to shift the burden
of health-care, children's care and housing on to the people more and
more. From time to time they gave some extra allowances to the people,
e.g.  when house-rents went high, a so-called "lakberpotlek" was
introduced, a rent allowance for people paid for some years. Now the
house rents are even higher, and many people were forced to buy the
flats they live in, but there is no rent allowance any more. And the
wages stayed on a rather low level.

Summarizing, IMHO the Hungarian situation is different from that of
Western Europe in that respect that in Hungary people never received
their real earnings. But now the state is taking from the people
something they never really received.

> [...] Look at what is
> happening with the farmers in Hungary at the very moment. The agricultural
> sector has been a fairly pampered lot for many, many years. Lately, for
> example, their first 1 million-forint income was not at all taxed. The
> government now tried to make these guys--who are quite well off, by the
> way--pay their fair share of taxes.

IMHO I would not be so sure that the farmers are so well off. A few
days ago the Central Office for Statistics in Hungary produced the
following data: the minimum subsistence level was in Hungary 15.000
HUF/month (at about 86 USD/month) in the year 1996. 2.5-3 million
people are living below that level. Many of them are peasants living
in villages.

As far as I know the 1 million income mentioned in the papers was
gross income and not net income. According to a spokesperson of the
farmers the farmers state that they need to produce at about 1.6
million HUF gross income/year in order to reach the minimum
subsistence level (considering taxation, social security and
expenditures). Of course I am in no position to confirm their
calculations.

> Result: fighting tooth and nail and
> organizing road blocks all over Hungary. Meanwhile, they refuse to negotiate
> with the government. Their representative simply don't show up because they
> know that a roadblockade will be devastating for the country and sooner or
> later the government will give in.

The road blockade of the farmers this week was rather different from
that of the "taxi drivers' blockade" in 1990.  The present road
blockade -- in contrast to the "taxi drivers' blockade" -- was not
devastating for the country. Then the taxi, bus and lorry drivers
really blocked all the main bridges, roads and border stations and
there was practically no traffic possible for several days in the
country. Now the farmers blocked only a traffic lane of the roads and
only in given places -- several dozen places all over the country --
so traffic was only slowed down but was not made impossible.

News from this morning: last night the representatives of the farmers
and the representatives of the government reached an agreement in
Kiskoros (a small town near the Danube southwards of Budapest).  The
representatives of the government had to go to Kiskoros for the
negotiations.

> Meanwhile, you hear that Hungarian
> agriculture receives twice as much money as Hungarian education!

This I don't know, I did not look up in the statistical yearbooks.
However, the support Hungarian education receives is not very high
nowadays.

Best regards
Magda Zimanyi

 Magdolna Zimanyi
 KFKI Research Institute for Particle  Phone: +36-1-395-9242
 and Nuclear Physics                   FAX:   +36-1-395-9151
 Computer Networking Center            E-mail: 
 H-1525 Budapest 114, POB. 49, Hungary URL: http://www.kfki.hu/~mzimanyi
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