Message-ID: >
Date: 3 Dec 1995 23:01:22 EST
Followup-To: soc.culture.magyar
Organization: HIX at http://hix.mit.edu/

American Troops to Use Hungarian Base for Bosnia Operation

1. Hungarian Parliament passes resolution on IFOR transit and stationong

On November 28 the Hungarian National Assembly passed a resolution on the trans
it 
and temporary stationing of the international Implementation Force (IFOR) plann
ed 
to operate in Bosnia. 312 deputies voted in favor of the resolution, with 1 vot
e 
against and 6 abstentions. The decision makes possible the transit and temporar
y 
stationing of IFOR troops on Hungarian soil as well as their related activities
, 
including the use of Hungarian air-space and assigned air bases by IFOR aircraf
t. 
The resolution enables the Government to agree upon the specifics of the mandat
e 
with the countries involved in IFOR.

Parliament also ratified the Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) signed by Hungar
y 
earlier this year regulating the legal status of armed forces of NATO members a
nd 
countries participating in the Partnership for Peace Programme while stationed 
abroad.

By these decisions the Hungarian Parliament has created the legal framework 
necessary for Hungary4s participation in the activities of IFOR aimed at settli
ng 
the crisis in the former Yugoslavia.

2. Kaposvar to be Base for American Soldiers

It seems probable that Kaposvar (SW Hungary) will be the base for the American 
U.N. 
troops, instead of Pics (S Hungary), following a decision to be made by the Uni
ted 
Nations and NATO.

The American embassy in Budapest forwarded the letter requesting the setting-up
 of 
the base to the Hungarian Foreign Ministry through diplomatic channels on Monda
y. 
Information from Hungarian military sources indicates that a preparatory team o
f 
American officers spent the weekend in Kaposvar, and will again examine the 
possibilities for accommodating troops in the Somogy county seat. They announce
d 
that this district would suit them from every aspect. The Taszar air base is a 
mere 
ten kilometres from there, and can easily be reached by both road and rail.

The American military base would be in one of the Kaposvar barracks that has be
come 
superfluous as a result of the reorganization of the Hungarian armed forces. Th
ree 
hundred soldiers could be accommodated there, American soldiers could be receiv
ed 
at the base, and several thousand personnel could be based there in mobile 
accommodation units. Other accommodation could also be provided at Taszar. 
According to unofficial information, preparations are already in progress on th
e 
Taszar officers' housing estate for receiving the Americans.

3. NATO official about Hungary4s contribution to peacekeeping in Bosnia

NATO attributes great importance to Hungary4s possible contribution to peacekee
ping 
in Bosnia and thus would appreciate Budapest ensuring the conditions needed for
 the 
peacekeeping units to reach their destinations, NATO Commander-in-Chief General
 
George Joulwan told.    Hungarian Foreign Minister Laszls Kovacs said Hungary4s
 
approach to the Bosnian peacekeeping operations is based on its interest in 
enduring peace in its neighbourhood and in cooperating with NATO.

4. NATO Asks Hungary to Send Technical Squad to Bosnia

Sending a Hungarian technical unit to Bosnia at NATO's request is supported by 
the 
senior government party, the Hungarian Socialist Party, as well as most opposit
ion 
parties: the Hungarian Democratic Forum (HDF), the Christian Democratic People'
s 
Party, and the Federation of Young Democrats - Hungarian Civic Party. The Allia
nce 
of Free Democrats did not make a final decision at today's preliminary consulta
tion 
held by Parliament's Defence Committee, while the Independent Smallholders Part
y 
categorically rejected it.

Defence Committee member Jeno Poda (HDF) told MTI if a technical squad was sent
, 
soldiers taking part should be volunteers, meaning that solely professional 
soldiers would go to Bosnia. The over 400-strong unit may be building a bridge 
over 
the Sava river, which would then have to be secured by a Hungarian armed unit 
against possible terrorist actions.

5. Hungary Should Base No Armed Troops in Bosnia - AFD

The Alliance of Free Democrats (AFD), the junior partner in the ruling coalitio
n, 
discussed on Monday the letter in which NATO asked Hungary to send a technical 
contingent to help peacekeeping troops in Bosnia.

AFD parliamentary group leader Ivan Pett, said, after a consultation with the p
rime 
minister, the AFD proposes this week Parliament should only decide on the matte
r of 
passage through the country and stationing, and decide later whether Hungarian 
technical units should go to Bosnia. Pett added the latest NATO request speaks 
of a 
larger technical squad covered by armed soldiers. "The AFD believes Hungary sho
uld 
not change its previous practice of not stationing armed troops in neighbouring
 
countries in view of recent history," Pett said.

Liviu Iordache ) wrote:
:  (Alexander N. Bossy) wrote:

: >The total
: >lack of any shred of evidence to support that kind of huge migration over a
: >few centuries is the death knell of Out-of-Illyria as a credible historical
: >theory.

: I posted plenty of circumstantial evidence for the migration. While
: none of them can be called "the smoking gun" we all are looking for,
: it is worth mentioning  that you have never addressed the presented
: facts directly, preferring to venture into long and tiresome
: unsupported speculations. However, just to prove how far away from
: reality is your "total  lack of any shred of evidence," I'll make
: reference just to the only genuine popular tradition, concerning the
: Romanians' origin,   preserved as a written  historical document. I
: dare to say that this evidence is very close to a "smoking gun." I
: posted this text some time ago, and it was received with almost total
: silence, perhaps an indication, I like to think, that it has raised
: questions that make the Romanian readers of this newsgroup
: uncomfortable with some traditional interpretations of their own
: past.The excerpt represents the beginning of the oldest Muntenian
: chronicle, attributed to Stoica Ludescu, as it was reproduced  in
: Calinescu's "History of Romanian Literature." It is  a very powerful

I don't understand why are you presenting an excerpt from a chronicle
as "genuine popular tradition". Is it only because you assume that 
Stoica Ludescu used such sources ?

: proof for the fact that, at least  before the 17th century,  among
: Romanians had existed a popular tradition preserving the memory of at
: least one migration wave coming  from south of the Danube. 

: >>>>But in the beginning it was inhabited by the Romanians who came northward
s.
: 	So crossing the Danube, they settled down at Turnul Severinului,
: 	others in the Hungarian country on the Olt and on the Mures and on 
: 	the Tisza, going as far as Maramuresh. And those who had settled 
: 	down at Turnul Severinului went further to the foot of the mountains
: 	as far as the Olt, others went down on the Danube and filling all 
: 	places reached the outskirts of Nicopolis. Then, the high-born boyars 
: 	were selected and of them they chose as their great ban, that is, 
: 	their head, one of the Basarab family. And the first princely 
: 	residence was at Turnul Severinului, the second was at Strehaia,
: 	the third at Craiova. And they ruled over those places for a long 
: 	time. And in year 6798 since Adam (1290) there was in the Hungarian 
: 	country a voivode called Black Radu Prince, herzog of Almas and 
: 	Fagaras, who rose with all his house and many peoples, Romanians, 
: 	Catholics, Saxons, all kinds of men, going down the Dimbovita and 
: 	founding a new country.<<<<

: I think this evidence  worths infinitely much more consideration than
: naive arguments based on "Romanians love the forest and so did the
: Dacians" or "Gee boy, I think the cap of that Dacian on Trajan's
: column looks exactly like the cap of Baci Istvan  from Prislop." 

In my opinion this excerpt describes the conquest and colonization
of Dacia. It is striking how the crossing of the Danube and the first
"settlement" at Turnu Severin is associated. Isn't at Turnu Severin where 
Appolodor of Damascus build for the romans the famous bridge ?
So yes, romanians ancestors crossed the Danube from south to north.
But those ancestors were the romans.

About the "naive" arguments, I don't see them as ridicule as you are
trying to make them to look like. 
The point wasn't only to say that romanians and dacians loved
both the forrest.
Suppose that a people lived for a long period of time hidding in forrest
or mountains. Do you think that that people would develop a cult
for forrests, mountains and nature in general ?
Where do you think you will be able to find traces of such cult ?
Wouldn't be in folklore ?
I think that this traces are very apparent in romanian folklore.
Now I don't consider that a proof of continuity but just as another
finger that points in that direction.


: Therefore, I did not say that those books "did not accept Romanian
: continuity," although some of them indeed reject it. My list of
: references was a counterweight to your whining that "despite strenuous
: effort I failed to find any history books in English or French,
: written after 1980 that even MENTIONED THE POSSIBILITY THAT MODERN
: ROMANIANS ARE NOT PRIMARILY DESCENDANT FROM THE ORIGINAL ROMAN-DACIAN
: MIXTURE."

O.K if you read word by word that phrase you are right.
But in that context I personally understood the same thing as
Alexander. That you are giving reference of books that embrace
the "migration" theories.

: Those books I have sent you to, are written in English, after 1980, an
: mentioned plenty of times that the fucking nonsense called theory
: Stinks with capital S from Sucks.

: Anyhow, I can see now that definitely you have some Balkan and/or
: Byzantine blood in your veins but not enough to balance the lack of
: subtility. If you got the impression that I'm seriously pissed, at
: least now  you're correct.

I think that you had a bad day. Or why do you feel the need to answer in
such terms to someone who doesn't agree with you ?
In this respect I admired Jeliko for his polite manners when dealing
with opponents. I think he sets a standard that everybody should aim. 

Cristian Alb

A few days ago I saw a post in the HUNGARY list from a well travelled
American making preparations to retire in Hungary.  After some queries
as to his reason, he stated that one of the international travel
magazins ("International Living", I think) ranked Hungary among the
first five most desirable countries to live or retire in.

Frankly, I was flabbergasted by that news.  What does that magazin know
I have missed?  Any ideas?

Joe Pannon

 () writes:

>A few days ago I saw a post in the HUNGARY list from a well travelled
>American making preparations to retire in Hungary.  After some queries
>as to his reason, he stated that one of the international travel
>magazins ("International Living", I think) ranked Hungary among the
>first five most desirable countries to live or retire in.

>Frankly, I was flabbergasted by that news.  What does that magazin know
>I have missed?  Any ideas?

>Joe Pannon

Hi Joe,

I have heard this myself also.  Being Hungarian myself, many of
my Hungarian friends and relatives told me this is because the 
almighty dollar goes a very long way in Hungary.  For example, an average
Hungarian would have to spend one months pay on rent, while an average
American would have to work, say, one week to pay rent.  In other
words, whatever you could buy over here, you could go to Hungary,
exchange it into Forints, and buy much more for the same amount of 
money over there. 

These are very rough numbers, but I'm quite certain this is the
reason for the article, i.e., financial ones.  I've been considering 
doing this over the last few months also.  

Maybe some other people in this newsgroup could elaborate more.

BTW, could you give me the exact title and date of the magazine you
saw this article in, if you have it available?

Steve.

 (Information Technology) wrote:

>THERE IS A NEW MULTI LEVEL MARKETING PROGRAM THAT HAS NOT BEEN ADVERTIZED
>YET.  YOU CAN MAKE A VERY GOOD MONEY IF YOU JOIN NOW AT THE BEGINING.  TO
>FIND OUT MORE E-MAIL ME YOUR POSTAL ADDRESS AND A TELEPHONE NUMBER THAT I
>CAN REACH YOU AT, AND I WILL SEND YOU THE COMPELET INFORMATION AT MY
>EXPENCES.  AFTER STUDING THE PACKAGE, IF YOU WISH YOU CAN JOIN THE
>PROGRAM.  REMEMBER, THERE IS NO PRESSURE TO JOIN, PROMISE.
>PEACE     

Hmmm, I think you've made a mistake in your subject. I guess it
should've been:

 I make a very good money
 ^

trap d'r niet in lui!!!
Mail Ya,

 ___      __
///arko /-aas            

       (fast; until early January 1996)
  (slow)

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\
     The software of my wordprocessor has more power 
         than the hardware of a smart missile
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Liviu Iordache ) wrote:
: T. Kocsis > wrote:

: >>the alleged Hun-Magyar dynastic continuity it's neither a historical
: >>fact, nor a myth without any basis in facts. It is just a plain
: >>misconception. There is no connection, whatsoever, between the 5th
: >>century Attila the Hun and 9th century Arpad. Period.

: >This continuity claim is not fixed to the Carpathian basin.

: It makes no difference. Outside or inside the Pannonian basin, there
: was never a connection between the Finno-Ugric Magyars or the Turkish
: Onogurs and Attila the Hun

[...snip...]

: Regards,

: Liviu Iordache

	Why is it so inconceivable for some people to accept that the
	Huns and Magyars might be related? Because of the so-called 
	'scientific' historians try to prove it that way? What records they
	base their 'proofs'? We only have some many-times (mis)translated
	chronicles of some Roman 'historians' who wrote through their
	personal views,etc... or some other written documents in monasteries
	over Europe.Just think about the Bible,it is the most mistranslated,
	misunderstood book and causing a lot trouble. As I wrote earlier
	here after the Huns were beaten and retreated ( which took time )
	they used well worn (!) routes to and from the East.It is quite
	possible that they met the next phase of push towards to the West 
	by Oriental tribes consisting of different groups, including
	'proto-Hungarians'. As many times turns out old legends have some
	truth 'seeds' which might not 'palatable' to later generations.
	Simply we don't have written records from those tribes of course,
	only oral traditions which persisted to this day ( not without a 
	reason in my opinion ). Also this Finno-Ugric relation is a bit
	far fetched as I see it.There might have been some mixing between
	Ugric + Finnish tribes and Hungarians in the present Volga area 
	but this was just the usual addition/separation of traveller tribes.
	The Finnish language is quite different from the Hungarian anyone
	can see.Our language relatives are back in the Far East ( this is
	the place where some brave soul went to search for relatives and
	not to Finland , not by chance again ). There are some scientific
	blood tests done recently by Japanese scientists which are more
	reliable in my opinion than some subjective reports written by
	religious monks/historians and used by present day 'historians'
	whatever way they choose it ( funded by interest groups , no
	mistake about it).Mr. Hidas replied to my earlier post about this
	subject pointing to some works by 'historians' , Hungarian or 
	otherwise. Well I am not convinced, I have seen how scientists
	are created, how they work; they are not infallible and most of
	all are not unbiased.I know this idea of Hun and Hungarian
	relationship are not popular but in my opinion it is a fact and 
	I don't need 'scientific' proof for it by some 'authority'.
	It is a well known fact that a nation is really defeated when its
	history/culture distorted or annihilated. Just think about all the
	book burnings throughout history.I don't want to go into now what is
	going on nowadays about cultural genocides, each one of us who can
	see through the 'official' media can see that.
			Regards

					CSABA  HARANGOZO
					

 (Swampvoors) writes:

>Horbach to Gorbachov at some point in the not-too-distant past.

What does Horbach/Xorbach mean?

Does it mean "whip" by any chance?

-- 


				Regards, Mark
				http://www.smns.montclair.edu/~hubey

Peter Hakel  > wrote:
>On 1 Dec 1995, Tony Pace wrote:
>
>> 1639 it is quite apparent that during the days of the Turkish rule
>> the name Toth belonged amongst the most numerous in Hungary.
>
>  This is interesting, I think it has already been discussed here 
>before. Toth is a surname. How was it with using given names and 
>surnames at that time? Was this pattern common before it was codified? 
>(I guess by Maria Theresa or Josef II ).

In the year 1639 most of Hungary was under Ottoman rule, from which the
territory of current Slovakia was spared.  Can we assume then that the
date was collected from that area?  I could see some logistical
difficulties to collect it from the Ottoman occupied areas.
And I would also be surprised if the Toth name was that common in
Transylvania proper.

Joe Pannon

In article >,
    (Vladimir Smirnov) wrote:
 (D.D. Chukurov) wrote:
>>   There are three kinds of people: those who can count and those who can't.
>
>   There are actually two kinds of people: those who think that there are
>two kinds of people, and all others.
>
>- Smirnov


Actually, there are three kinds. People who can count, people who can not, and 
people who think that there is two kind of people.

Vasek.

Ponarin, you are putting your foot in your mouth again. 
Let's stop fooling the people, how could Yaroslav the Wise speak 
Old Russian, when there was no such language in his day? If 
anything he spoke Old Swedish (I'm not sure when the Swedish 
Language began to differ from the other Scandinavian languages, 
but it was probably around this time) and Old Rus or 
Old Ukrainian, if you will, since he lived in Kyiv.  But being an
educated man, I'm sure he spoke or understood many of the dialects
of his realm, but "Russian" Old or otherwise was not one of them
since Russia at that time did not exist.

In article >, Ed Ponarin .
edu> says:

 (Jorma Kypp|) wrote:

The Swedish connection with Russia continues: still Ivan the Terrible was an
ancestor of Rurik!
And because Romanov family comes from Prussia or Poland, and Stalin was from
Georgia, it seems that the only real Russian leaders during last 1000 years
have been Boris Godunov, Lenin(?), and all the guys from Chruchev to today..
The Godunov family originated from a Tatar murza (a petty prince) who 
went to Moscow's service and was baptized a century before Boris.  Lenin
was a quarter Kalmyk (a west Mongol tribe), a quarter Jew (PBS, where 
are you?), a quarter Swede (Sweden rules!), and I am not sure about the 
fourth quarter (German, Chuvash (a Christian Turkic tribe) and/or 
Russian?).

But seriously, all of them were surely Russians, including the early 
Rurikides.  I think the last prince who could speak both Old Russian 
and Old Norse was Jaroslav the Wise (d. 1054).

-- 
Ed Ponarin  --  üÄŐÁŇÄ đĎÎÁŇÉÎ

Don't even dare to think that my employer endorses these opinions!

On 30 Nov 1995  wrote:
| Thanks, Dan!  I thought you'd like that.
| You know, it was such a nice high serve and I've been aching for a good
| tennis ever since I've got some low blows from Hermes, Adrian & Co.
| This one was just too good to pass. ;-)

Mark Cristian wrote:
>Panonica sweet cheeks, this post of yours was not even a low blow!
>It was a somewhat acurate description of the stark naked truth, that is
>offending the traveler's nose in many a public facility throughout
>Romania. Now you may have gloated over it, like the the low to the ground
>oinkers that enjoy wallowing in excrement ! But I do not think that going
>into denial as some on scr do, every time this comes up, will do much to
>clean up public facilities in Romania.

                                 `      
                    `             )
                     )           (
                    ((            ))                 (
                     ))          ((         (         ))
     _              ((            ))         ))      ((         _
    | |  There's the slippin&slidin experience on the "fekete  | | 
 ___| |  vonat"  departing Budapest,  especially on weekends.  | |___
(    .'  There was so much fertilizer I thought this might be  '.    )
 )  (  a mobile hydroponic experiment in Hungarian gagriculture  )  (
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

                 ==================================
                | "Panonica sweet cheeks" ha ha ha |
                | How 'bout, Panonymous honey buns |
                 ==================================

-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >,
    (Pavel Afanasiev) wrote:
>In article >,  says...
>
>>What does it really mean somebody is 1/8 Mongol or Eskimo or some such?
>>What is the point in arithmetically analysing somebody's ethnic 
>>composition?
>>Wojtek
>
>I'm 1/3 jew.
>
>Pavlik
>

Are you sure?  Exactly 1/3? I don't think anybody can be
sure about a ratio like that.

In the simplest scenario you would have to have 

1 grandparent +
1 great great grandparent +
1 great great great great great great grandparent jew.

That still leaves 1/768 unaccounted for which I couldn't
be bothered with any further.

So you know _all_ your ancestors and are sure about their
genetical makeup more than 7 generations back?
Pull the other one.

:-)

Paul JK

November 29, 1995

San Diego Union

ANTAL BORSA
Former Hungarian revolutionary, 60

Antal Borsa, a former Hungarian revolutionary who became a prominent
architect after immigrating to the United States nearly 40 years ago, died
of leukemia in Kearny Mesa, (San Diego.)

Mr. Borsa, 60 had lived in San Diego ince 1975. For the past five years he
was vice president of professional services at Earl Walls Associates, a
laboratory deseign firm in Sorrento Valley.

He taught seminars in architectural technology through the California
Specifications Institute and took many young architects under his wing
over the years.

An accomplished pianist and bass vocalist, Mr. Borsa performed in various
musical productions and concerts, including paino solos of Beethoven's
"Choral Fantasy." He belonged to the Scripps Ranch Music Club and sand in
choirs at Mary Star of the Sea Catholic Church and Mission San Diego de
Alcala.

"Tony was the Quintessential renaissace man - a poet, a writer, musician,
photographer, nature lover and athlete", said his wife Nada.

A native of Gyor, Hungary, he was attending Budapest University when
Soviet troops moved to quell the Hungarian revolution in 1956. Fearing for
his life as a student activist, he escaped with his sister to New York.

Mr. Borsa learned enough English in three months to receive a scholorship
to Iowa State University. After one year of study, he left to accept a
drafting job in Sioux Falls, Iowa, then was drafted into the U.S. Army,
serving six months of active duty.

He resumed his education at the University of Southern California, earning
a degree in architecture. He then worked for 15 years for  Gruen
Associates in Los Angeles where he was head of construction before moving
to San Diego.

Mr. Borsa served several terms as trustee on the board of La Jolla Country
Day School.

In addition to his wife, he is survived by two daughters, Katalin, Potter,
of Hermosa Beach, and Julie Borsa, of Torrance; a son, Adrian of San
Diego; and two sisters, Ilona, Kuster of Vienna, Austria, and Eve
Szentivany, of Burbank.

Services were held Nov, 8 at Mary Star of the Sea Catholic Church.

 (Pavel Afanasiev) wrote:

>I'm 1/3 jew.

Just because one may have been conceived in a threesome...

 (Csaba) wrote:

>: It makes no difference. Outside or inside the Pannonian basin, there
>: was never a connection between the Finno-Ugric Magyars or the Turkish
>: Onogurs and Attila the Hun

>	Why is it so inconceivable for some people to accept that the
>	Huns and Magyars might be related? Because of the so-called 
>	'scientific' historians try to prove it that way?

Professional historians have searched for the facts on which the
alleged Hun-Magyar continuity was based. They concluded that there are
no facts to support this claim. Yes, the Huns and the Magyars *might*
be related, but then again, aren't we all related to the same
genetically ill monkey? 

> What records they base their 'proofs'?

On the lack of any records supporting the Hun-Magyar connection.

> As I wrote earlier
>	here after the Huns were beaten and retreated ( which took time )
>	they used well worn (!) routes to and from the East.It is quite
>	possible that they met the next phase of push towards to the West 
>	by Oriental tribes consisting of different groups, including
>	'proto-Hungarians'.

What records support this scenario?

> As many times turns out old legends have some
>	truth 'seeds' which might not 'palatable' to later generations.

Which old legend(s) suggest(s) that the Huns were the Magyars'
ancestors?

>	Simply we don't have written records from those tribes of course,
>	only oral traditions which persisted to this day ( not without a 
>	reason in my opinion ).

Is there a reliable oral tradition supporting the claim that the
Magyars were closely related to the Huns?

> Also this Finno-Ugric relation is a bit
>	far fetched as I see it.There might have been some mixing between
>	Ugric + Finnish tribes and Hungarians in the present Volga area 
>	but this was just the usual addition/separation of traveller tribes.
>	The Finnish language is quite different from the Hungarian anyone
>	can see.Our language relatives are back in the Far East ( this is
>	the place where some brave soul went to search for relatives and
>	not to Finland , not by chance again ).

 "Finno-Ugrian,"  a subfamily of the Uralic languages, is just a
linguistic technical term. It doesn't imply that the Magyars came from
Finland. Finnish language is one of the Finno-Ugrian languages and is
distantly related to Hungarian, meaning that the ancestors of these
two people originated in the same area. At the beginning of the Iron
Age, people speaking a Finno-Ugrian language migrated into the area of
the present day Finland. This is why, although Magyar is a
Finno-Ugrian language, the Magyars never came from Finland.  

>There are some scientific
>	blood tests done recently by Japanese scientists which are more
>	reliable in my opinion than some subjective reports 

Very interesting. What is the scientific foundation of this  test and
what does it prove?
 
> I have seen how scientists
>	are created, how they work; they are not infallible and most of
>	all are not unbiased.

It applies to the Japanese scientists also, doesn't it?

>I know this idea of Hun and Hungarian
>	relationship are not popular but in my opinion it is a fact and 
>	I don't need 'scientific' proof for it by some 'authority'.

So far I haven't seen any fact supporting this relationship. Just a
very vague hint to a "scientific"  test performed by some Japanese
"authority."

>	It is a well known fact that a nation is really defeated when its
>	history/culture distorted or annihilated. 

The only known fact is that Hungarians, as well as Romanians, have
both history and culture, regardless of some uncertainty surrounding
their origins, and that nothing threatens their existence as nations.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

 (Cours 6412) wrote:

>I don't understand why are you presenting an excerpt from a chronicle
>as "genuine popular tradition". Is it only because you assume that 
>Stoica Ludescu used such sources ?

Exactly. A similar reasoning applies to Ureche's story about the
founding of the Moldavian state by boyars from Maramures. Contrast
these two cases with Miron Costin's mentioning of the Dacia Traiana.
Romanian historians agree that Costin has not recorded a popular
tradition, he was just strongly influenced by the works of
Transylvanian German scholars.

>: proof for the fact that, at least  before the 17th century,  among
>: Romanians had existed a popular tradition preserving the memory of at
>: least one migration wave coming  from south of the Danube. 

>: >>>>But in the beginning it was inhabited by the Romanians who came northwar
ds.
>: 	So crossing the Danube, they settled down at Turnul Severinului,
>: 	others in the Hungarian country on the Olt and on the Mures and on 
>: 	the Tisza, going as far as Maramuresh. And those who had settled 
>: 	down at Turnul Severinului went further to the foot of the mountains
>: 	as far as the Olt, others went down on the Danube and filling all 
>: 	places reached the outskirts of Nicopolis. Then, the high-born boyars 
>: 	were selected and of them they chose as their great ban, that is, 
>: 	their head, one of the Basarab family. And the first princely 
>: 	residence was at Turnul Severinului, the second was at Strehaia,
>: 	the third at Craiova. And they ruled over those places for a long 
>: 	time. And in year 6798 since Adam (1290) there was in the Hungarian 
>: 	country a voivode called Black Radu Prince, herzog of Almas and 
>: 	Fagaras, who rose with all his house and many peoples, Romanians, 
>: 	Catholics, Saxons, all kinds of men, going down the Dimbovita and 
>: 	founding a new country.<<<<

>In my opinion this excerpt describes the conquest and colonization
>of Dacia. 

And your opinion is based on what? There is no mention of Dacia, no
mention of a "conquest" or a war, no mention of emperor Trajan leading
his soldiers over the Danube, and no mention of the Dacian resistance.


>It is striking how the crossing of the Danube and the first
>"settlement" at Turnu Severin is associated. Isn't at Turnu Severin where 
>Appolodor of Damascus build for the romans the famous bridge ?

The bridge of the Emperor Trajan is also mentioned by Constantine
Prophyrogenitus. This is why nothing is striking about the fact that
the people, who later elected a Basarab as their ruler, crossed the
Danube at Turnul Severinului.  Hamza Pasa also crossed the Danube at
Turnul Severin an he was not Emperor Trajan.

>So yes, romanians ancestors crossed the Danube from south to north.
>But those ancestors were the romans.

Actually, they were already "Ruma~ni" when they crossed the Danube.

>About the "naive" arguments, I don't see them as ridicule as you are
>trying to make them to look like. The point wasn't only to say that romanians 
>and dacians loved both the forrest. Suppose that a people lived for a long 
>period of time hidding in forrest or mountains. Do you think that that people 
>would develop a cult for forrests, mountains and nature in general ?
>Where do you think you will be able to find traces of such cult ?
>Wouldn't be in folklore ? I think that this traces are very apparent in romani
an folklore.
>Now I don't consider that a proof of continuity but just as another
>finger that points in that direction.

I can think of several hundred nations that love the forest,  the
mountain, and the nature, nations that at some point in their history
sought shelter in remote areas. Despite all these things being
recorded in their folklore I find extremely difficult to belive that
all of them are of Dacian extract.  Nothing points in that direction,
not even a finger.

Liviu Iordache

 (Igor Mazin) wrote:
=>In article > Ed Ponarin 
.edu> writes:
=>> Lenin
=>>was a quarter Kalmyk (a west Mongol tribe), a quarter Jew (PBS, where 
=>>are you?), a quarter Swede (Sweden rules!), and I am not sure about the 
=>>fourth quarter (German, Chuvash (a Christian Turkic tribe) and/or 
=>>Russian?).
=>>
=>
=>Ed:
=>We have to share the dubious honor off being the same tribe as Lenin
=>He was 1/8 (not 1/4) scandinavian, 1/8 German, 1/4 Russian, 1/4 Jew,
=>and 1/4 Chuwash, but in the last I am not 100% shure, maybe it was Kalmyk.

	AFAIK, Lenin's father was half-Chuvash, half-Kalmyk,
	while his mother was half-German, half-Jew (baptized).

 (Tony Pace) wrote:
>Charles Vamossy writes:

>
>>The real question is simple:  will these two nations, stuck together
>>within the confines of the Carpathians, learn from their past mistakes
>>and develop new solutions to their problems, or will they keep clubbing
>>each other over the head while the Czechs and the Austrians take home the
>>bacon?  Western Europe is tired of the bickering.  Just read the press...
>
>Whereas the Hungarian minority in Slovakia has been afforded schools
>and opportunities to learn in Hungarian since the 1920's it might be
>interesting to compare the reciprocal minority language opportunities
>afforded for the minorities in Hungary. An article, contributed by
>Jozef Simek, might be the basis for a comparative analysis.

Tony --  as I re-read and compare my statement and your reply, I come to 
the sad realization that your choice is to keep on clubbing. Go ahead... 
 everyone is entitled to their views.  Hopefully, there is in Slovakia a 
group of people who recognize the futility of the hate you espouse.

I do not expect a reply from you, nor do I wish to continue this 
correspondence.

Charles Vamossy

Kevin Hannan ) wrote:
:  (Jorma Kypp|) wrote:
: >
: > The New Magna Charta
: >Now, let's imagine, that all this could be possible. That we could draw 
: >objective ethnic etc. borders all over the Europe, Africa and Asia, 
: >including very complex Caucasus, Bosnia and Middle-East. 
: >Schleswig-Holstein to Denmark, independent Sorbia near Berlin, separated 
: >Trans-Sylvania to Hungary, free Basqueland between France and Spain, 
: >independent Catalonia, Bretagne, Wales, Scotland, Sardinia, Lappland, 
: >Skne, Carelia, Komi, Udmurtia, Tatarstan, Chechenya, Krim, Moravia, 
: >Sachsen, Bayern... Yes, here is the Europe of regions.
: >

: The present political division of Europe is a holdover from
: the days of 19th century Romanticism, when it was thought that
: each ethnolinguistic group should have its own state.  Such a
: system cannot, of course, solve the problems of the numerous
: regions you mention, to say nothing of minorities.  
: I believe that the future of Europe is Euroregionalism. But  I am
: not sure how or even if this can be effected  (c.f. the hostility
: towards thios idea in soc. culture.czecho-slovak).  

: Kevin Hannan

Surprising post ... from someone whose every post is filled with hatred 
for anything he regards as "Czech".  Hostility, by jove you are full of it.

Ivan

Hallo!

I am writing a magazine article about the radio station Radio Free
Europe, which were based in Munich, Germany, and now are located in
Prague, Czech Republic. Therefore, I would like to talk to (i. e.
exchange some mails with) somebody who listened to RFE during the Cold
War or still listens to it today. I would be interested in how it
influenced you personally and the political environment and society as
a whole in Eastern European states.

I would be very thankful if somebody could tell me about his
experiences,

best wishes,

Chris

 (Igor GAZDIK) wrote:
>In article >,  
>says...
>>
 (Tony Pace) wrote:
>">As far as Slovakia being called Felvidek (Uplands in English?) for 
>">several centuries is not surprising, since it was the "upper or 
>"northern" 
>">part of Hungary. 
>">
>">Best regards
>"">Charlie Vamossy 
>">" 
>">
>
>      wouldn't it be more proper to call hungary "lower slovakia,"
>      as the hungarians came there much later.   

You (or the Slovaks) are certainly welcome to call any part of any 
geography anything you want as long as everyone is clear on which 
country you are referring to.  Holland/Netherland comes to mind as an 
example of the same place and country being referred to by two names and 
there are others.

> besides, the areas west of the danube were populated by slovak tribes.   bish
op
>      gorazd, for instance, lived in a place whose name nowadays is
>      sekesfehervar.   by the way, pozony is not a "hungarian" name
>      for bratislava.   it is one of many names the city has had in
>      the course of millenia.   the "hungarian" version is just 
>      a misspelling of the latin name posoniensum.
>

I am sure Bishop Gorazd enjoyed living in the area now known as the 
Hungarian city of Szekesfehervar, because it is a beautiful place.  
Before him, many other men and women lived there, going back to thousands 
of years.

Pozsony IS the Hungarian name for that city simply because that is what 
Hungarians choose to call it.  The fact that it has its origins in latin 
should not surprising to anyone as a great many cities were founded by 
the Romans.  The very English name for the English call their capital, 
London, is from the latin Londonium.

Charlie Vamossy

In article >,  says...
>
>
>
>PS: I only have one suggestion:
>    \
>    >  Thus  one  could postulate the existence  of an
>    >  area north of the Roman border,   with  a harsh
>    >  physical environment, such as the marshes along
>    >  the Pripjat River,  which the Romans might have
>    >  called  "Sclavia"  ("the land  of  the  runaway
>    >  slaves"). The consonantal cluster *scl-,  since
>    >  it violates the syllabic rules of early Slavic,
>    >  would  have  been  simplified by  the  "runaway
>    >  slaves"   themselves  into  *sl-,   whence  the
>    >  unattested place name *Slavia.
>    >  This  excursion   is  absolutely  hypothetical:
>    >  there is no evidence of the existence of a land
>    >  situated north-east  of  the Roman Empire which
>    >  was called by the Romans "*Sclavia". Until such
>    >  historical   evidence  is  found,    this  easy
>    >  derivation  remains  solely in the realm of the
>    >  possible.
>
>    What if we go about it the opposite way?
>
>    For example,  it  may  have  been  the  name of a people
>    which became associated with the concept of slavery: The
>    scores of captured `barbarians' that the legions brought
>    back  were  employed in ways  which  equipped Greek  and
>    Latin with a new term that became synonymous to `slave'.
>
>    Still on a hypothetical level, of course... :-)

Such a twist has been suggested by a number of non-slavists.  

However, there is a powerful barrier of a purely linguistic 
nature.  As I mentioned at the beginning of my article, the
root *slav- comes in two shapes:  slav-/slov-.  If the ethnonym
Slavjane/Slovjane had been based on a domestic Slavic word, this
sort of doublet would have been impossible.  The different grade
of the vowel *o ~ *a is meaningful in Slavic derivation:  it
characterizes the derivation of verbs from nouns or imperfective 
from imperfective verbs.  An additional argument, on phonological
grounds, is that the Romans and the Byzantine Greeks would not have
needed to insert an epenthetic *k or *th, respectively, in order to 
pronounce an initial syllable beginning with *sl-. It is much easier
to understand a simplification of an original complex cluster than
to explain an unneeded epenthesis.  

As you might already guess, I don't believe that there is any strong
evidence that slav-/slov- in the ethnonym is of Slavic origin.  The 
different grades of the vowel a/o can only be explained as two
different perceptions of vowel length in a foreign word (the so-called
"akan'e" in East Slavic, where unstressed /o/ becomes /a/, is first
attested in Moscow writings of the 14th century).  So far, it seems 
that the Gothic word "slawan" - 'to be mute, to speak an unknown
language', is the only candidate for such a foreign borrowing in early
Slavic.  There is a preponderance of the evidence of close linguistic
contacts between the early Slavs and the Germanic tribes, especially
the Goths.  Not only is there a fair number of early Germanic 
borrowings in Slavic, but even some Latin words appear to have entered
Slavic through Gothic mediation.  An example that comes to mind is the
Common Slavic word *kot'l- "kettle".  The shape of the word cannot be
derived directly from the Latin "catinus" or "catillus", meaning 'plate'
or 'bowl'.  But the derivation is straightforward by way of Gothic
(attested as genitive plural "katile").  As you may surmise from the
above, I don't believe in the Stammbaum theory.  

Regards,

Ilya Talev

On 4 Dec 1995, Dr Alex M Farkas (Staff) wrote:

> Dear Kobori Gheorghe Alexandru, (Romanian name, not Hungarian)
> I've been there - I've seen it.  I'm an Australian born Hungarian, but 
> consider myself Hungarian and I am proud of it, and as long as any 
> Hungarians are alive, there will never be peace between the two countries.
> alex

But Alex, there is peace between the two countries. Turmoil exists only
in the disturbed minds of a new class of politician of both 
nationalities, that will not hesitate and would like to profit by stiring 
trouble no matter the cost to Joe Average, and in the ranks of the confused 
and (or) the rabid.
Now as to which category may fit you best, why don't you ponder and come
up with your own answer ! 

m. cristian

 (Igor GAZDIK) wrote:
>"In article >,  
>"ays...
>">
>">Jan Sapak > wrote on the Slovak list on 11/28/95:
>">"
>
>">This is a very sad day in the Carpathian Basin, 
>
>      sad to whom?
>      are you still dreaming of hungary being in the carpathian basin?

Sad to most people who hope for a more civilized, friendlier environment 
in Central Europe.  As far as Hungary, just like Slovakia, being in the 
Carpathian basin: that is a fact, not a dream.

>
>"as both countries are 
>">struggling with economic woes, hoping for admission into the club of 
>">Europe.
>
>      i doubt that slovakia has any of the problems hungary has.

Perhaps I should not have jumped to the conclusion that Slovakia, just 
like Hungary, was ravaged by 40 years of communist led central planning, 
environmentally unfriendly industrialization, and government ownership.  
If indeed, Slovakia is a free and booming economy, with no nagging 
privatization and environmental problems to solve, congratulations! 
Funny, though... the most recent issue of the Economist gave a somewhat 
more troubled picture.  I guess they must have talked to all the wrong 
people and looked the wrong statistics.   Maybe they should have 
consulted you...



>">President Kovac's action calls questionable the whole Treaty recently 
>">signed between Hungary and Slovakia, as the law directly violates 
>">several sections, especially Article 15.
>">
>">The Slovak Parliament's reluctance to pass the Treaty, coupled with the 
>">speedy passage of the Language Law, seems to indicate that Slovakia 
>"does 
>">not wish to become a member of the European Union and accept its 
>"entrance 
>">requirements.
>
>      the hungarians have already made one of their furious demarches.
>      when the eu told them the law was ok (which i would have told 
>      them outright), they proklaimed that the eu is in error...
>      

I am not aware of Hungary making a "demarche" to the EU (they are 
certainly not stupid) on anything.  I did read in the Slovak press 
service about three European countries ambassadors making a "demarche" to 
Slovakia, expressing their dis-satisfaction about political conditions in 
general (which includes the tension created by the Language Law).  A 
second "demarche" was delivered by US Ambassador Theodore Russell, 
echoing the Europeans' concern.

But, as long as you feel that Slovakia is not only a model economy but 
also a shining example of democracy and tolerance, you should have 
nothing to worry about getting into EU.  The four ambassadors were 
probably just testing their own governments' sense of humor when they 
wrote their "demarches", to see how much they can get away with without 
approval.

>">
>>Hopefully, as the Eurostatesmen consider Hungary's application, they 
>will 
>>note that the Hungarian Parliament has passed the Treaty already.
>
>
>      they should also look at the treatment of minorities in hungary...
>

I am certain that they will, as they should.  And I hope that Hungary, if 
it comes up short on any issue, will take immediate and effective steps 
to correct it.  It's the least any country that wishes to join the "Club 
of Europeans" must do.

The last item, I think is very important.  Slovakia and Hungary may 
engage in a war of "demarches", words, articles or, heaven forbid, 
bullets fo as long as they want to.  But eentually they both must appear 
before the Grand Masters in Bruxelles, where they must convince them that 
they are ready to join the Club.  The Grand Masters have little patience 
to deal with problems in Central Europe that are no more thorny than the 
problems they already solved in Western Europe, like Southern Tyrol in 
Italy, Catalonia in Spain, etc.

I have no illusions that the only reason Slovakia and Hungary negotiated 
and finally initialed a Treaty was to show the Grand Masters their 
willingness to put aside their ancient curses and problems.  So, in the 
final analysis, its not me, or Hungarians, or the Hungarian government 
itself you arguments must convince, but the Western Europe and the United 
States (for NATO membership).

Take care,



Charlie Vamossy

In article >,
Dr Alex M Farkas (Staff) > wrote:
>Dear Kobori Gheorghe Alexandru, (Romanian name, not Hungarian)
>
>I think it easy for you to write such drivel given that you live in Canada.
>Most of Romania's territory not long ago did in fact belong to other countries
.
>Now Romania is trying to destroy the ethnic MAJORITIES that live in those
>regions.
what territory belonged to what country ?? 
are you talking of the austro-hungarian empire???oh you poor little 
things ... been dismantled mercilessly by the vicious neighbours!!!


>
>I've been there - I've seen it.  I'm an Australian born Hungarian, but conside
r
>myself Hungarian and I am proud of it, and as long as any Hungarians are alive
,
>there will never be peace between the two countries.
>
>Why don't you go to Transylvania and Moldavia to see what "your people" are
>doing there?  rest assured, friend, that if ever there will be strife or
>conflict in Transylvania, I will be there to support and defend Hungary one wa
y
>or another.
what is my people doing there???enlighten me ...
strife is going to happen if they let people like you to freely roam the 
streets..
i know a few romanians sharing  your mental illness and i truly believe that 
they should put all of you in a crazy house and lose the key for good.



>
>Slovakia also seems to have taken up the Roma'n example now and they are
>starting to ethnically cleanse Hungarians from territories which have been
>Hungarian for centuries.
>

what hungarian territories??? have you ever asked yourself why Hungary is 
at odds with most of its neighbours?? romanians, slovaks, serbs,etc????


>Why?  Fear ... the Hungarian culture is strong enough to resist change, and th
e
>locals all fear that Hungarian tradition and language will survive, and theirs
>will not.

what fear??? fear of what???aren't we a little paranoid ????
then whats the need to gear up like this if the hungarians will always 
survive???
take a pill or get a girl to relax you man.... 

















 >
>-- 
>
>alex
>----
>
>Dr Alex Farkas                       Ph:     +44 1786 46 74 49
>Department of Computing Science      Fax:    +44 1786 46 45 51
>University of Stirling               e-mail: 
>Stirling FK9 4LA                     WWW:    http://nezz.cs.stir.ac.uk/~alex/
>Scotland                             Room:   4B67
>

dan.

En csak az elso egy-ket reszletet olvastam a Szatmari-konyvbol es az volt
a benyomasom, hogy mindossze egy szenzaciot hajhaszo valakirol van szo.
Mar a cim maga is meglehetosen gyanus es a tobbi meg inkabb.

Balogh Eva

Hermes > wrote:
>
>
>On 4 Dec 1995, Dr Alex M Farkas (Staff) wrote:
>
>> Dear Kobori Gheorghe Alexandru, (Romanian name, not Hungarian)
>> I've been there - I've seen it.  I'm an Australian born Hungarian, but 
>> consider myself Hungarian and I am proud of it, and as long as any 
>> Hungarians are alive, there will never be peace between the two countries.
>> alex
>
>But Alex, there is peace between the two countries. Turmoil exists only
>in the disturbed minds of a new class of politician of both 
>nationalities, that will not hesitate and would like to profit by stiring 
>trouble no matter the cost to Joe Average, and in the ranks of the confused 
>and (or) the rabid.
>Now as to which category may fit you best, why don't you ponder and come
>up with your own answer ! 
>
>m. cristian

Indeed, Mr. Christian, there is peace between the two countries, thanks 
be to God!  Let's hope that nothing will change that.

That does not mean that there are no outstanding problems between these 
countries, just that neither country is foolish enough to resort to war. 
The problems of the Hungarian minority in Romania are far from solved.

In a region cursed by violence, hatred, ethnic,racial and religious 
"cleansing" the potential for war always exists.  The pressure is on the 
politicians to relieve the built up pressures that could drive those so 
disaffected that they would resort to violence.

Regards,


Charlie Vamossy

In article >,  (Ilya
Talev) wrote:


    > [...]

Thanks heaven, finally someone knows what he is talking about.

....Or, maybe, "Slav" is a Finnish word for a "horrid aggressor"? 
   Where the hell is Jarmo Ruuti (or what is his name)?  
:)

MP

-- 




Nobody at all, including my past, current and future employers, is responsible 
for whatever is written above.

On 4 Dec 1995  wrote:

   [...]

> >  This is interesting, I think it has already been discussed here 
> >before. Toth is a surname. How was it with using given names and 
> >surnames at that time? Was this pattern common before it was codified? 
> >(I guess by Maria Theresa or Josef II ).
> 
> In the year 1639 most of Hungary was under Ottoman rule, from which the
> territory of current Slovakia was spared.  Can we assume then that the
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
  Not quite. Southern Slovakia did suffer from Turkish raids.

> date was collected from that area?  I could see some logistical
> difficulties to collect it from the Ottoman occupied areas.
> And I would also be surprised if the Toth name was that common in
> Transylvania proper.

  I don't speak Hungarian, so I'm not sure about this. I heard somewhere 
that the expression "Tot" is/was used to denote all non-Magyar people, 
not merely Slovaks. Something like the word Gentiles vs. Jews. Is this 
correct? Thank you.

> Joe Pannon


Peter Hakel

Igor Chudov ) wrote:
> Paul J. Kriha ) wrote:
> *     (Pavel Afanasiev) wrote:
> * >
> * >I'm 1/3 jew.
> * 
> * Are you sure?  Exactly 1/3? 
> 
> It may be a probabilistic thing. The text below should not be construed
> as if I had something against Pavlik's mom. It is just a theoretical 
> speculation on how a person can claim to be 1/3 Jew.
> 
> Suppose a woman X was not Jewish, and she slept simultaneously with three 
> men, two of them Jewish, and the third not Jewish.
> 
> Them Mm. X delivered a child, and she does not know for sure who really
> was his biological father. Then, the mathematical expectation of
> Jewishness of this child is
> 
>                   J = 1/3 * 0.5 + 1/3 * 0.5 + 1/3 * 0 = 1/3
> 
> assuming that all fathers are equally probable, so the probability
> of each of them to be the real father is 1/3. This is what we wanted
> to prove. Applause.
> 
> If Mr. Zaykin has recovered already, he may confirm this theoretical
> conclusion, as he is one of the most prominent statisticals geneticists.

Mr. Chudov is wrong about the chemical contents of a chemist P. Afanasiev.
I have to say he is just a little bit right about my having taken 
advantage of my unusual opportunities. And I would add that while the 
fifteen-year-old daughter of his cook is taking birth-control pills, the 
situation with expected value dramatically changes.

--
Dima
{ the following appendum is a Cauchy random variable }

Normal has its own conjugate


> 
> Igor, non-probabilistic 62.5% purebred sovok.
> -- 
>     - Igor. SCS&R Yellow Pages: http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/index.html
>    For public PGP key, finger me or send email with Subject "send pgp key"
> 
> 
>                    .:
>              ..'''' :
>          :'''       :
>           :        :.
>            :        :
>     ..      :      :
>    :  :      :    :
>    :  :  ..:'      :
>    : : .'          :
>    : : :          :
>     :: :.        :
>      :`.:        :.
>       ```:.........:

 wrote:
> A friend of mine has asked me to get for him the e-mail address for the
> Soros Foundation in Budapest.  If anybody has it, please send it to me.
> If you also know the regular mail address, include that, too, please.

I'm interested in Gy|rgy's address, mean Gy|rgy S|r|s himself.
If anybody has it, please send it to me.

Jorma Kypp|
Laukaa
Finnorszag

Peter Hakel wrote:

>>> 1639 it is quite apparent that during the days of the Turkish rule
>>> the name Toth belonged amongst the most numerous in Hungary.
>>
>>  This is interesting, I think it has already been discussed here
>>before. Toth is a surname. How was it with using given names and
>>surnames at that time? Was this pattern common before it was codified?

Given names and surnames can be found in literary Czech referring to
Slovak areas (e.g. Piesne o Modrom Kameni, Divine a Zvolene) from the
16th century, so I suppose that it was not an uncommon pattern.

All disclaimers apply, not speaking for Ford.

Joe wrote:

>In the year 1639 most of Hungary was under Ottoman rule, from which the
>territory of current Slovakia was spared.  Can we assume then that the

Though the Turks never made much inroads into Slovak territory for long,
however a few literary accounts were preserved of the turkish campaigns
waged upon Slovak territory e.g. Piesne o Modrom Kameni, Divine, Zvolene

>date was collected from that area?  I could see some logistical
>difficulties to collect it from the Ottoman occupied areas.

You missed the point, the data as you called it were turkish tax records,
which provide the wealth of demographic data about the Slovak population
administered under turkish rule in Hungary proper, in which is recorded
the existance of Slovak settlements as far south as Pecs, referred to
as Patkostolie, from which Pecs takes its name, its German name remains
Fuenfkirchen to this day. Amongst these settlements in the Pecs nahija
were Lipova, Lepsi and Szent Ma1rton, all in the 16th century, and long
before Joe's predecessors arrived from Trencin in the 18th century :-)

>And I would also be surprised if the Toth name was that common in
>Transylvania proper.

Sedmohradsko (Siebenburgen as it was also known) was not under turkish
administration and the turkish defters were not recorded in Transylvania,
I would recommend the anthology of Slovak literature from Transylvania
which has recently been published by a Romanian professor in Romania.

All disclaimers apply, not speaking for Ford.

In article >,  (Igor GAZD
IK) says:
>
>">** George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, 
>"UK **
>"> Spaceship Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Cybernautic address: 
>"
>">NB: The BBC has ceased to provide Internet access to the public but 
>"email to
>">the above address will be forwarded onto a new PIPEX address throughout 
>"1996
>">   * C=64 stuff wanted * Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list 
>
>     man, reading this crap gives me a better understanding
>     of the restrictions the britishers are putting on immigration.
>     imagine they would get another two or three geniuses like you.
>     would they still qualify as the country of shakespeare of newton???

Dear Igor,

Firstly, I'm not an immigrant; I was born in London.

Secondly, some of my pupils/proteges have been/are in the genius
category...If you want to bring up subjects like Shakespeare and Newton
I hope you know what you're talking about because the company I keep is
largely bright and educated....

Thirdly, *Spaceship Earth* refers to a book by Buckminster Fuller. Check
it out.

Fourthly, it is very immature to attack people personally with postings
like yours. The thousands/millions of people who read these Usenet ngs
are hardly going to take you seriously....attack the comments with some
reason or logic, or even get annoyed, but have a basis for doing so: don't
just throw a childish tantrum that simply betrays a juvenile ego having
growing pains....before you call anyone stupid, make sure you have good
reason, or you'll end up looking infinitely more stupid. I berated your
comment to somebody else's posting and perhaps it was a bit OTT, but
really that's a cue for you to give a reason, not to make an even more
stupid personal attack on my sig (which you don't remotely understand,
evidently.)

Okay, we all make mistakes, especially on emotive nationalistic issues,
but let's know when to stop and not get silly.....BTW I don't hate
Slovaks, I like them, just as I like Romanians, English, or anyone else,
but I don't like the cynical politicians who have hijacked the Slovak
cause for their own selfish ends and will lead the nation to ruin, just
as most politicians world-wide are doing and have done ...they get
where they do because they manage to sucker large numbers of people
into swallowing their bullshit....

You'll probably hate me even more for being so publicly patronizing
but I'm doing it (rightly or wrongly) out of paternalism. If you have
something to say that's worthwhile or interesting I want to read it and
learn: I always acknowledge an informed argument and generally admit my
mistakes; but personal attacks? forget it! You'll soon learn that you
will only get attention from other juveniles, idiots and lunatics who are
on that wavelength. I've been there, I know....

God bless,

George


** George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK **
 Spaceship Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Cybernautic address: 
NB: The BBC has ceased to provide Internet access to the public but email to
the above address will be forwarded onto a new PIPEX address throughout 1996
   * C=64 stuff wanted * Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list *

Paul J. Kriha ) wrote:
*     (Pavel Afanasiev) wrote:
* >
* >I'm 1/3 jew.
* 
* Are you sure?  Exactly 1/3? I don't think anybody can be
* sure about a ratio like that.
* In the simplest scenario you would have to have 
* 
* 1 grandparent +
* 1 great great grandparent +
* 1 great great great great great great grandparent jew.
* 
* That still leaves 1/768 unaccounted for which I couldn't
* be bothered with any further.

It may be a probabilistic thing. The text below should not be construed
as if I had something against Pavlik's mom. It is just a theoretical 
speculation on how a person can claim to be 1/3 Jew.

Suppose a woman X was not Jewish, and she slept simultaneously with three 
men, two of them Jewish, and the third not Jewish.

Them Mm. X delivered a child, and she does not know for sure who really
was his biological father. Then, the mathematical expectation of
Jewishness of this child is

                  J = 1/3 * 0.5 + 1/3 * 0.5 + 1/3 * 0 = 1/3

assuming that all fathers are equally probable, so the probability
of each of them to be the real father is 1/3. This is what we wanted
to prove. Applause.

If Mr. Zaykin has recovered already, he may confirm this theoretical
conclusion, as he is one of the most prominent statisticals geneticists.

Igor, non-probabilistic 62.5% purebred sovok.
-- 
    - Igor. SCS&R Yellow Pages: http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/index.html
   For public PGP key, finger me or send email with Subject "send pgp key"


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Dear Kobori Gheorghe Alexandru, (Romanian name, not Hungarian)

I think it easy for you to write such drivel given that you live in Canada.
Most of Romania's territory not long ago did in fact belong to other countries.
Now Romania is trying to destroy the ethnic MAJORITIES that live in those
regions.

I've been there - I've seen it.  I'm an Australian born Hungarian, but consider
myself Hungarian and I am proud of it, and as long as any Hungarians are alive,
there will never be peace between the two countries.

Why don't you go to Transylvania and Moldavia to see what "your people" are
doing there?  rest assured, friend, that if ever there will be strife or
conflict in Transylvania, I will be there to support and defend Hungary one way
or another.

Slovakia also seems to have taken up the Roma'n example now and they are
starting to ethnically cleanse Hungarians from territories which have been
Hungarian for centuries.

Why?  Fear ... the Hungarian culture is strong enough to resist change, and the
locals all fear that Hungarian tradition and language will survive, and theirs
will not.

-- 

alex
----

Dr Alex Farkas                       Ph:     +44 1786 46 74 49
Department of Computing Science      Fax:    +44 1786 46 45 51
University of Stirling               e-mail: 
Stirling FK9 4LA                     WWW:    http://nezz.cs.stir.ac.uk/~alex/
Scotland                             Room:   4B67

In a previous article,  (KAROL REZI) says:

>To hear the business information in Hungarian, German, or English
>language:
>    
>    Dial in Hungary: (36) 30 899 111 or 30 800 111 (24 hrs/day) 
>         in Germany: (49) 6233 3265 45 (24 hrs/day)
>         in U.K.   : (44) 171 644 4040 (24 hrs/day)
>   in US(toll-free): 1-800-633 8284 / reservation no.#777 8888
>
>Looking for sponsoring people in Hungary (and the countries below).
>>>> rest of the garbage deleted <<<<<<<<,

Well, well, well. The crooks of the "land of free (of universal health 
care) and brave (to die)" is trying to found new suckers overseas for 
their vicious piramid schems.
Hungarians/Romanians please beware of this pyramid schems. Only  1% of 
those involved in this type of schems make money - by letting the suckers 
under them to do the real job of selling - and they just collect the 
residual incomes. So, please don't 'bite' into this type of offers and 
make the top crooks make top money.
-- 

--*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*
Stephen Dancs                                                      Tel./Fax :
                                           +1 (416) 963-9624