(Ray Fischer) wrote:
>Ivan Marinov  > wrote:
>>Peter Szaszvari wrote:
>
>>> And furthermore: we cannot kill an embryo because it is not an
>>> independent being. (HAHAHA)
>>
>>Stop this nonsense! Embryo is a human being, period.
>
>Stop your bullshit.  An embryo is not and never has been considered to
>be a human being.
>
>-- 
>Ray Fischer


It (at least) DEVELOPS into a human being.  But that baby can never be 
born
and do great things if it's kill just because a woman can't take 
responsibilty
for spreading her legs.

Christine

In article >,  says...
>
>Robert Mobbs wrote:
>
>> >I have no proof that there's a planet named Mars, 
>>         Sure you do.  Buy a telescope.  During certain points of orbit,
>> you can see it quite plainly.
>
>And you have blind faith in a telescop????? :-))))))))))))

	I can touch a telescope; I can easily explain a telescope; Hell,
I can even construct a telescope.  That's not blind faith.

                              Robert L. Mobbs                  
                Microsoft WPG Software Development Engineer    
                                         
                                     - 
                "Got blues drawing crosses on my front door
                 Blues a' bringing buckets round the back
                Blues trying to push me from me white fence
                     And tar me a darker bluey black"
                                    XTC

-- the opinions expressed herein are the opinions of the author, and
   not of Microsoft corporation

Italian Autodidact ) wrote:

: Hi, I'm posting this article from Italy.

: I've just started learning  Hungarian as an auotdidact
: and I would like someone in this Newsgroup to help me 
: with the following:

: Sajnos kave nincs / sajnos kavet nincs

: Which of the two sentences is correct??

: Thank you for your time.

Achille!

don't over-analyze this thing! 

1. The hungarian word for coffee iz "k.v."
2. The noun ka've' stands as all nouns (e.g. vi'z, tej, pe'nz stb)
3. Possessive for nouns is with an "-m" (e.g. vi'zem, tejem, pe'nzem stb)
4. Dative for nouns is with a "-d" (e.g. vi'zed, tejed, pe'nzed stb)
5. Accusative for nouns is with a "-t" (e.g. vi'zet, tejet, pe'nzet stb)

so, you're close when you say "sajnos kavet nincs"
the correct way is to say "sajna'lom hogy kaved nincs"
which means: "i'm sorry you don't have any coffee"
in other words: "ke'rsz kavet?" = do you want coffee
or, "kaved nincs?" = you don't have coffee?
or, "kavet ke'rsz?" = do you want coffee?

it's ALL aglutinative, the distinction is betwixt the "-d" and the "-t"
your query makes more sense that way...

best... continue your studies

janos

 (Amar Dev Sarwal) wrote:

>In article >, 
>(Tami S. Garza) wrote:
>
 > wrote:
>@
 (Ray Fischer) wrote:
>@>>Ivan Marinov  > wrote:
>@>>>Peter Szaszvari wrote:
>@>>
>@>>>> And furthermore: we cannot kill an embryo because it is not an
>@>>>> independent being. (HAHAHA)
>@>>>
>@>>>Stop this nonsense! Embryo is a human being, period.
>@>>
>@>>Stop your bullshit.  An embryo is not and never has been considered to
>@>>be a human being.
>@>>
>@>>-- 
>@>>Ray Fischer

>@>
>@>It (at least) DEVELOPS into a human being.  But that baby can never be 
>@>born and do great things if it's kill just because a woman can't take 
>@>responsibilty for spreading her legs.
>@>
>@>Christine
>@>
>@>
:
>@
 must really be stupid if that is the best you can come up with. If
 are so stuck on sex is bad, therefor any woman who has sex is bad,
, etc, etc, then you need some intensive psychiatric counseling
 you have children to spread your sickness to.
>@
>@        Tami
>
>You're not putting thoughts into her head, are you now?  She seems to be
>advocating personal responsibility, a position that many psychiatrists
>would love their patients advocate (or at least I hope they would).

Personal responsibility is assessing the situation and deciding the
best way to deal with it. Amar, you have this idiotic notion that
since you don't like abortion, that makes utilizing it's availability
irresponsible. Not true. It's just something *you* don't like. You
simply need a reality check on where your likes and dislikes figure in
the grand scheme of things. 

As for what a psychiatrist would advocate, you're correct, a decent
shrink would love for their patient to take responsibility for
themselves and the situation, rather than sticking their head in the
sand and denying what's happening (i.e. that they're pregnant) until
the last minute (when they go into birth). Therefore, when they
consciously assess the situation and come to this conclusion after
reasonable thought, a GOOD shrink would be proud of his/her patient. 

A shrink who accused the patient of irresponsibility based on the fact
that the shrink is anti-abortion would be irresponsible and should be
drawn and quartered (I have no patience for professional immaturity
and irresponsibility in the psychiatric field).

As for putting thoughts in her head, I'm not quite sure what you mean.
She's made it sadly clear how she feels, that a woman who has sex is
an object of ridicule and scorn. Notice that this stupid little twit
didn't say any particular woman, married, single, young, old,
experienced, inexperienced...just ALL women. 

	Tami

An excellent attack against the speaker of half-truth and
partially informed illogical proposition as prophecy 
simpleton. Some have traced the Magyars back to the 
region of Siberia, but unmentioned is the speculative
notion that at the time it is said the Magyars began to
migrate there was a light skinned people who came from
the area of Siberia and mixed with the indigenous Hindus
giving rise to the Brahmin class. It would
be interesting to hear what other inhformed people have to 
say to this matter. Maria Egorov at Prodigy )
you really are quite contentious and full of yourself.
What shall we generalize of your nationality when we ignorantly
mock you as the paragon of its culture. pssst... Magyars
and Huns are two different peoples.

Roger John Magyar

On 16 Jul 1996 13:30:36 GMT,  (Gyorgy
Kovacs) wrote:

>In article >,
>Lacko/Kohn > wrote:

>>If you want to say: I'm sorry, I don't have coffee.
>>
>>Margarita

>
>

>Sajnos nincs ka've'm.
>Sajnos ka've'm nincs. 
>...."Sajnos" with "Sajna'lom,"   For "I am very sorry" replace "Sajnos" with "
Nagyon 
>sajna'lom"
>
>If you want to say: "Sorry (I'm sorry, I'm very sorry), there is no coffe"  
>than the end of the sentence is "nincs ka've'" and if want to express that you
 
>have other stuff but no coffee than "ka've' nincs".
>
>Did I leave out any other combinations? (Probably yes, but that's it for now.)
>GK

Just to confuse the foreigners:

  Sajnalom, de kave, az nincs!

> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rozsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
 < OR >          
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.            
> =============================================================

[================================================================]
  [ On July 7/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:         ]
  [ |The Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced labor camps   ]
  [ |and GAS CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity which was concluded    ]
  [ |proudly by the Hungarians, without German supervision).       ]
  [================================================================]

You claim that there was no German supervision of the evacuation of
Hungarian Jews to the death camps. Can you explain to us who Adolf Eichmann
was and what his role in Hungary was?
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

[===========================================================]
    [  On July 16/96 in >  ]
    [   (Maria Egorov) claimed:              ]
    [  |Mr.,I attacked you on two fronts                        ]
    [  |1. The identity of the Hungarians.                      ]
    [  |2. The identity of the Jews living in Hungary.          ]
    [===========================================================]

   [============================================================]
   [ On July 7/96  (Maria Egorov) declared:  ]
   [ |In the list of the so called Hungarian scientists you     ]
   [ |included Austrians like Robert Barany, Richard Zsiymondy, ]
   [ |etc. The rest of the scientists presented by you are Jews ]
   [ |and Slavs. Many of them having their names magyarized.    ]
   [ |The Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced labor     ]
   [ |camps and GAS CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity which was    ]
   [ |concluded proudly by the Hungarians, without German       ]
   [ |supervision). Knowing these facts, do you think it is     ]
   [ |easy for the Jews born in Hungary, survivors of the       ]
   [ |holocaust, (who are living abroad for obvious reasons) to ]
   [ |identify themselves as Hungarians? NOT AT ALL.            ]
   [============================================================]

I intervened

[===================================================================]
[ On July 8/96 in >                ]
[  (Wally Keeler) wrote:                           ]
[ |Wrong. The great Hungarian poet, George Faludy, visited my home  ]
[ |several times. He's a Jew. He suffered at the hands of the Nazis.]
[ |He also suffered at the hands of the Communists. He is proud of  ]
[ |his Hungarian identity, his Hungarian language, his Hungarian    ]
[ |culture. In spite of 20 fruitful and peaceful years in Toronto,  ]
[ |Canada, his Hungarianness compelled him to return to his beloved ]
[ |Hungary to end his days in his homeland.                         ]
[ |                                                                 ]
[ |A good friend of Faludy's, George Egri, also a Hungarian Jew,    ]
[ |who lived in Toronto for decades, returned to Hungary after the  ]
[ |Communists ate dirt. He was a journalist and columnist in        ]
[ |Toronto. I had many visits with him at his home and mine. When I ]
[ |met up with him in Budapest, he waxed poetic about being "home,  ]
[ |I am home again." George Egri also suffered the same situation   ]
[ | as George Faludy.                                               ]
[ |                                                                 ]
[ |Another good friend of George Faludy and George Egri, who is     ]
[ |also a Hungarian Jew, and who shared their experience in Hungary ]
[ |-- also had been imprisoned together in the infamous Rajk        ]
[ |concentration camp, although not returning to Hungary (because   ]
[ |he has a good life in Canada)does not forsake his Hungarianness. ]
[ |His name is George Gabori. His experiences can be read in his    ]
[ |book, WHEN EVILS WERE MOST FREE.                                 ]
[===================================================================]

And then...

   [============================================================]
   [ On July 9/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:     ]
   [ |do you think Albert Einstein after arriving in United     ]
   [ |States, started to yell "I am a German"?.NOT AT ALL. Do   ]
   [ |you really think that the Jews from Hungary (those who    ]
   [ |escaped the death camps)came to United States and proudly ]
   [ |said:"I am a Hungarian" or "long live Hungary"? Do you    ]
   [ |really think that these same Jews(only older)would change ]
   [ |their minds just because you changed the government?. Or  ]
   [ |Any gesture of public relation(like inviting Jews to your ]
   [ |home,etc.)will attenuate the pain,but they will definitely]
   [ |not become the Hungarians, Austrians or Germans you wish  ]
   [ |them to be(PERIOD) In the past Hungary, Germany & Austria ]
   [ |called the Slavs,Jews&Gipsies: "RATS"&"SUBHUMAN" This     ]
   [ |mentality still persists in Hungary and it is hidden as   ]
   [ |it is in Germany and Austria of today. In these           ]
   [ |circumstances I know that there are no Jews who would     ]
   [ |proudly say:I am a Hungarian.                             ]
   [============================================================]

So I replied:

[====================================================================]
[ On July 11/96 in >               ]
[  (Wally Keeler) wrote:                            ]
[ |If you read George Faludy's autobiographical book, My Happy Days  ]
[ |In Hell, you'd find that he had no problem with being a Hungarian ]
[ |and Jew. He made absolutely no effort to hide nor to even play    ]
[ |down the fact. He was neither ashamed of being Hungarian nor      ]
[ |Jewish. He certainly didn't BECOME AMERICAN. Although he moved to ]
[ |Toronto for a couple decades, and appreciated it more than any    ]
[ |other place, he remained a proud Hungarian and Jew, even with     ]
[ |Canadian citizenship. I knew other Hungarians and Jews and they   ]
[ |never expressed the kind of crap you think they do.               ]
[====================================================================]

I overlooked mentioning a friend and ally of the Peoples Republic of
Poetry, and publisher of many books of poetry and prose, Robert Zend, who
was also a Hungarian Jew. He was always proud of both characteristics and
he had never denied those characteristics. At poetry readings he was
introduced as a Hungarian. The same went for George Faludy when I attended
his poetry readings. These are public affairs. 

I can mentioned 2nd rate poet and first rate columnist, George Jonas, who
is also a Hungarian Jew. (he had once been married to "right-wing"
columnist, Barbara Amiel, who is now married to Canadian and international
media mogul, Conrad Black.) In his [Jonas] published works and activities,
he had no hesitation in declaring his Hungarianness. 

In spite of the fact that I presented several very public Hungarian Jews
who never denied, indeed proclaimed, their Hungarianness, you declared:
     [=======================================================]
     [ |I know that there are no Jews who would proudly say: ]
     [ |I am a Hungarian.                                    ]
     [=======================================================]

Question: Can you name any Hungarian Jew who publicly disavowed his
          Hungarianness?
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

[============================================================]
   [ On July 9/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:     ]
   [ |do you think Albert Einstein after arriving in United     ]
   [ |States, started to yell "I am a German"?.NOT AT ALL.      ]
   [============================================================]

[====================================================================]
[ On July 11/96 in >               ]
[  (Wally Keeler) replied:                          ]
[ |I don't think he was yelling any message. I'm a fifth generation  ]
[ |Canadian and I've never yelled - "I am a Canadian." NOT AT ALL.   ]
[ |Do you yell out your nationality or ethnicity. The salient point  ]
[ |is that Albert never <denied> his roots.                          ]
[====================================================================]

             Do you have any proof whatsoever that 
             Albert Eistein had ever denied his Germanness? 
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

Christine > wrote:

 (Ray Fischer) wrote:
>>Ivan Marinov  > wrote:
>>>Peter Szaszvari wrote:
>>
>>>> And furthermore: we cannot kill an embryo because it is not an
>>>> independent being. (HAHAHA)
>>>
>>>Stop this nonsense! Embryo is a human being, period.
>>
>>Stop your bullshit.  An embryo is not and never has been considered to
>>be a human being.
>>
>>-- 
>>Ray Fischer

>
>It (at least) DEVELOPS into a human being.  But that baby can never be 
>born and do great things if it's kill just because a woman can't take 
>responsibilty for spreading her legs.
>
>Christine
>
>
Christine:

You must really be stupid if that is the best you can come up with. If
you are so stuck on sex is bad, therefor any woman who has sex is bad,
etc, etc, etc, then you need some intensive psychiatric counseling
before you have children to spread your sickness to.

	Tami

Sikerult megszereznem a Petofi Radio interjujanak szoveget NPA-val, amit
az alabbiakban kozlok.  A Radiotol megkaptam annak Interneten valo
kozlesi jogat is, amiert koszonetet mondok Szilagyi Arpadnak.
Amennyiben ezt valaki le akarja kozolni az s.c.m.-en kivul mas Internet
ujsagban is, az megteheti az interjut megelozo jogi hivatkozasok
figyelembevetelevel.

Pannon J.

----------------------
Petofi Radio (http://www.petofi.enet.hu), 1996. junius 13.
Interju Nemenyi Peterrel a PETOFI DELUTAN c. musorban
riporter: Szilagyi Arpad

(A musor tartalmat a szerzoi jogi torvenyek vedik. A szoveg barmilyen
felhasznalasa kizarolag a jogtulajdonos, a Magyar Radio engedelyevel
lehetseges. A musorra valo hivatkozas csak a forras pontos megnevezesevel
engedelyezett. Figyelem! Az irott valtozatnal igyekeztunk a szoveget huen
visszaadni, az elo beszedet nem stilizaltuk.)

Nemenyi Peter:
Korulbelul harom hettel ezelott felhivtak a Munkaugyi Osztalyrol, kozoltek
velem, hogy 2 feljelentes erkezett. Az egyik a vallalat igazgatojahoz, a masik
pedig az Energiaugyi Miniszteriumhoz, amelynek neve DOE (Department Of Energy)
es a DOE keresere meginditottak ellenem egy nyomozast. Olyan vadakat emeltek,
amelyek nem voltak valosak. Tobbek kozott 'pornographic' anyag kuldese
kulonbozo egyetemekre, a kulonbozo egyetemek accountjaira, tehat szemelyes
o~o~o~...

Szilagyi Arpad: ... cimekre.

NPA: ... cimekre valo betores stb., stb.

Sz A:
De hat ezeket bizonyitani kell valahol ...

NPA:
Nem tudtak bizonyitani, ugyhogy ejtettek minden ilyen vadat, es maradt a
legvegen az, hogy en a cegnek a komputeren 'anti-semitic' irasokat kozoltem
le, amit megint csak nem tudok elfogadni ...

Sz A:
No dehat me'g hogyha neked anti-szemita nezeteid is lennenek, akkor is hat az
Internet, amennyire tudjuk, az egy szabad rendszer, barki barmilyen
velemenyt feltehet.

NPA:
Igen, tulajdonkeppen az amerikai alkotmany ertelmeben barki a sajat politikai
nezeteinek hangot adhat es ezt propogalhatja. Ennek ellenere ha valaki belep
egy ilyen ceghez, akkor alairatnak vele egy papirt, hogy magancelra nem
hasznalhatja, de ugyanakkor egy korlevelben viszont volt utalas arra, hogy
megiscsak hasznalhatjak.  Szoval ...

Sz A:
A fonokok irtak meg?

NPA:
Igen, az egyik fonok, aki eleg magas pozicioban van, egy korlevel formajaban
biztatta a munkasokat, hogy az Internetet megismerjek, tehat a Netscape es a
Mosaic, stb, stb-t gyakoroljak.  Ugyhogy ... a masik meg az, hogy ...

Sz A:
Es aztan ez nem szurt szemet senkinek?

NPA:
Hat persze, termeszetes, ugyanis mindenki hasznalja az Internetet
magancelra, ami tulajdonkepen egy onoktatasi formatum is.  De az en
esetemben peldaul a cikkek otthon irodtak, miutan olyan tortenelmi kutfokre
volt szuksegem, ahova kell esetleg 10-15 kulonbozo tortenelmi konyv,
dokumentum, stb., stb.  Hat nem is lehet egy munkahelyen megirni, mert hogy
nem erek ra, ugyhogy ez ugy tortent, hogy en otthon megirtam, ugyhogy
munkahelyemrol adtam fel, ami kb. egy par masodperc, egy floppy lemezrol
fel lehet kuldeni.  Elegge kotetlen munkaidom volt, tehat ebbe sem lehetett
volna belekotni, de termeszetesen a vegso vad az volt, hogy en a
munkaidomben hasznaltam a vallalati komputert ...

Sz A:
Hogy lehet ezt eszrevenni? Azt, hogy ott nehany masodperc alatt egy levelet
feladsz, vagy irsz te peldaul?

NPA:
Csak ugy, hogyha valaki feljelenti az embert, es a feladott cikknek a
fejleceben szerepel az e-mail cim, amiben kodolva ugyan, de a vallalat neve
is benne van, ez esetben pl. "anl", ami Argonne National Laboratory-t
jelentett.  Ezt egy kivulallo nem tudhatja, csak az, aki nyomoz.

Sz A:
Az nem lehet pl., hogy te mondjuk, munkaidon kivul, -- ez lehet a
munkaidod elott, utan, vagy esetleg ebedszunetben --, add fel azokat a
leveleket?

NPA:
Tulajdonkepen igy tortent.  Ebedidoben es szabadidoben adtam fel, es
maganlevelekre is fokepp ekkor valaszoltam.

Sz A:
Azt ki mondja meg, hogy mi tartozik bele a munkadba es mi az, ami mar privat
tema?

NPA:
Tulajdonkepen a vallalat barmilyen e-mail uzenetet privatnak tekinthet, ha
csak az tenyleg nagyon szorosan nem kapcsolodik a vallalatnak a munkajahoz,
es ez esetben viszont a vallalat e-mail forgalmanak a 99%-a privatnak
minosul.

Sz A:
S erre nem figyel fel senki?

NPA:
Nem is erdekli oket.  Az en esetem csak azert kerult a nyilvanossag ele,
mert egy feljelentes erkezett, s a Department of Energy kenyszeritette a
vallalatomat, hogy lepeseket tegyen.  Hogyha ez a feljelentes csak a
vallalatomhoz erkezett volna be, akkor tulajdonkepen ebbol nem lett volna
ugy. Ez egy boszorkanyuldozes ...

NPA:
A vadak kozott akkor az is benne volt, hogy milyen nezeteket terjesztesz?

NPA:
Nem, ezt visszavontak villamgyorsan, mert kozoltem, hogy ez alkotmanyi
jogi ertelemben tamadhato. Az az egyetlen vad maradt, hogy a munkaidoben
hasznaltam a komputert magancelra.

Sz A:
Mi fog veled tortenni?

NPA:
Az ugy lezart.  Per pillanat keresem a feljelentoket, hogy ellenuk polgari
pert tudjak inditani.  Munkamat elvesztettem, vissza mar nem tudok menni,
ugyhogy nekem munkat kell keresnem, es tulajdonkepen az elet megy tovabb ...

(Zenei betet)

Bemondono:
Velemenyeiket varjuk telefonon, jogos volt-e az amerikai vallalat dontese.
138-8011, 138-7110 a ket telefonszamunk.

(Zenei betet)

Musorvezeto - Kiralyhegyi Zsuzsanna:
Interneten erkezett egy reagalas, a leveliro Nemenyi Peterrel szimpatizal.
A kovetkezoket irja:

"Az alkotmanyban valahol le van irva, hogy a Magyar Koztarsasag jogallam.
Nem vagyok jogasz, de szerintem ez tobbek kozott azt jelenti, hogy a vadat
kell bizonyitani es nem az artatlansagot.  Az a teny, hogy Nemenyi ur a
puszta vad miatt elveszithette allasat, azt jelenti, hogy a szabadsag
hazajaban, azaz az USA-ban, barkit egzisztencialisan ki lehet kesziteni, ha
nem tetszik a velemenye."

(Zene)

[===========================================================]
    [  On July 16/96 in >  ]
    [   (Maria Egorov) claimed:              ]
    [  |Mr.,I attacked you on two fronts                        ]
    [  |1. The identity of the Hungarians.                      ]
    [  |2. The identity of the Jews living in Hungary.          ]
    [===========================================================]

In the beginning:

    [===========================================================]
    [  On July 6/96 in >   ]
    [   (Maria Egorov) declared:             ]
    [  |...the Nobel Prize Winners you prezented to us are all  ]
    [  |nonHungarians.(Look Britanica,There are no Hungarin     ]
    [  |Nobel Prize Winners.) They were Germans ,Slavs or Jews. ]
    [===========================================================]

First intervention:
  
  [===============================================================]
  [ On July 6/96  (Liviu Iordache) quoted  ]
  [ from the Britannica:                                          ]
  [ |Wigner, Eugene Paul, Hungarian JENO PAL WIGNER (b. Nov. 17,  ]
  [ |1902, Budapest, Hung.--d. Jan. 1, 1995, Princeton, NJ US)    ]
  [ |Hungarian-born American physicist, joint winner with J. Hans ]
  [ |D. Jensen of West Germany and Maria Goeppert Mayer of the    ]
  [ |United States of the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1963. He     ]
  [ |received the prize for his many contributions to . . .       ]
  [ |                                                             ]
  [ |Olah, George A. in full GEORGE ANDREW OLAH (b. May 22, 1927, ]
  [ |Budapest, Hung.) Hungarian-American chemist who won the 1994 ]
  [ |Nobel Prize in Chemistry for work conducted in the early     ]
  [ |1960s that isolated carbocations...                          ]
  [===============================================================]

The next day:

   [============================================================]
   [ On July 7/96  (Maria Egorov) declared:  ]
   [ |In the list of the so called Hungarian scientists you     ]
   [ |included Austrians like Robert Barany, Richard Zsiymondy, ]
   [ |etc. The rest of the scientists presented by you are Jews ]
   [ |and Slavs. Many of them having their names magyarized.    ]
   [============================================================]

OK Ms., we have EUGENE PAUL WIGNER and GEORGE A OLAH, both recipients of the
Nobel prize. These two men are "nonHungarians" as you claim. Now could you
tell us which one of these two are Jews and/or Slavs who had their names
Magyarized. Please inform us.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >, AND Books > wrote:
>5. Accusative for nouns is with a "-t" (e.g. vi'zet, tejet, pe'nzet stb)
>janos                                                       ^^^^^^^
However difficult it is to pronounce, the correct way is "pe'nzt"
GK

In article >,
Peter Szaszvari > wrote:
>    (ANDREW ROZSA) wrote:
>>Just to confuse the foreigners:
>>  Sajna'lom, de ka've', az nincs!
>Good, we could go on with this:
>Sajna'lom, de ka've' sincs.
>Szaszvari Peter
     Ka've'? Sajna'lom, de az nincs!
GK

> So what is the nature of that debt in your own eyes? What do the ordinary 
> people owe those who were shut out based on their past achievements or 
> those of their families? 
Nothing. Those who committed no crimes bear no responsibility. Standing by 
and letting a crime happen might not be the highest moral behavior, but it 
is no crime. 

> You don't find the denial of visas or promotions to be persecution? I 
> disagree, but each of us has our own image of what is persecution. 
My definition of "persecution" is rather narrow, you might have a broader
definition. Perhaps the best thing to do is to avoid the ambiguous senses of
"persecution" and talk about the specific offense, e.g. denial of visa. 

> I guess you don't think that violations of the Helsinki human rights 
> protections which include political denial of promotion or denial of the 
> freedom of travel constitute persecution.
By the time Hungary signed the Helsinki accords they were pretty much in
compliance. I'm sure counterexamples can be found, but there wasn't a 
"widespread" pattern of violations. 

> This is still a non-answer. 
I would have to dig out the text to make it more of an answer, and currently I
don't have access to a Hungarian library. If someone from Hungary could post
it that would be great, otherwise it'll have to wait a bit, sorry. 

> You can't just appeal to authority and think that this ends the matter. 
No, I should post the text, agreed. Unfortunately, I can't do this right away.

> The Israeli justice system made the right decision and showed itself to be 
> mature and responsible. It wasn't a thirst for vengeance that motivates 
> either the Nazi hunters or those who would call communists to justice. It 
> is just that, a desire for justice. Just because I want to recognize 
> that and you don't does not make me a defender of Nazis. 
I never said that. As for the vengeance bit, see my previous posting.

> > I think the supported owe something, in direct proportion of their support,
> > and the banned are owed something, in direct proportion of their banishment
.
> And those who were "just following orders" what of them? Is it only the 
> guy who wields the club or also the guy who gains career advancement because 
> of the newly opened job who owe something?
Wielding the club is reprehensible. Taking a job is not.

> So you would have preferred to be morally culpable of the crimes of the 
> communist regime (you applied for all the goodies you could get) but 
> because you weren't good enough at playing the system you didn't receive 
> anything. The moral choice you made (by your own rule) would have made you 
> guilty but the choices made by others prevented you from getting your 
> spoils and certifying your culpability. 
In this all-encompassing search for justice and morality you seem to have lost
touch with reality. Of course I applied for grants. Had I received one, I
still wouldn't feel responsible for the evils of communism, and I don't 
think grant recipients should so feel just by dint of having received grants.
For the longest time my parents received a grant in the form of subsidized
housing: they lived in a state-owned apartment and paid rent significantly
below market rates. 

By your logic, anybody who accepted anything at all from the system was
guilty. How could I eat the bread produced by underpaid workers? Well, you
know, it was the only bread to be had. How could I apply for grants? They were
the only grants offered in Hungary. How could my parents live in state-owned
housing? At the time they couldn't afford to buy their own. 

> I'm sorry, we're guilty by our own choices, not the choices of others. 
Very true. So when I eat in a restaurant where the workers in the kitchen are
treated badly (your example) is it my choice to treat them badly? Obviously
not. If they are treated so badly, why don't they go work somewhere else?
Well, perhaps there are no other jobs to be had, just as there are no other
housing, bread, or government grants to be had. 

> I would agree that those who received support should pay back but also those 
> who would have liked to be among the favored few but just didn't make it 
> because there weren't enough goodies around should also be considered 
> culpable. 
You would agree -- I wouldn't. There is never enough of anything to go around,
not even air and water. By our very existence, we take up space that could be
assigned to somebody else. Any system of morals that tells you that in a bad
society the only moral choice is to retreat to the woods and live on wild
berries has reduced itself to absurdity. 

> You don't get it. Regime changeover is the point here, not the distraction 
> of the court's swapping the small right of a writ of mandamus for the large 
> right of constitutional review.
The right of constitutional review was well established already. Still,
Marbury vs.  Madison was a highly significant case in that respect. It was
also a significant case vis a vis the court curtailing its own powers, but was
much less of a significant case in terms of regime changeover. If anything,
the court cleverly maneuvered itself out of the position of having to take a
specific stance on that issue, either for or against Marbury.

> > A particularly interesting case is that of the German judiciary after WWII:
> > needless to say, almost all were implicated in the evils of nazism. Yet the
y
> > were kept in place until the sixties, and only Chancellor Erhardt issued a
> > circular in which he _asked_ not ordered those who _themselves_ felt
> > implicated to step down. Many did. 
> 
> Of course this is after 20+ years of indoctrination on the evils of this 
> ideology and an occupying army dedicated to denazification. This is hardly 
> an analogous situation. There are no occupying armies, the Communists, 
> unlike the Nazis, are not banned from politics. I mean really, the analogous 
> situation would have been for Rudolph Hess or Herman Goering to have run 
> for Chancellor in the '50s.
You asked a question, and I answered. Since it wasn't the answer you wanted to
hear you are grasping at straws. No two situations are completely analogous. 

> In post armistice Germany if a judge were to try to shield Nazis or to 
> sabotage the replacement government he wouldn't have a chance. Clearly in 
> the post communist countries there is no outside force to stop them.
Why not? Either the majority of the society is secretly or openly communist,
in which case a communist system with democratically elected communist
politicians and communist-sympathizer judges is fine, or the majority isn't,
in which case a judge shielding communists will generate considerable
resentment and will be, in the course of time, removed. There may not be an 
outside army to enforce de-communistification, but why would one be needed?

> Actually Communism also tended to get starker and starker until it felt it 
> had eliminated its self-described enemies and only then started to get 
> milder. Compare 1920 Russia with 1937 Russia and you will be hard pressed 
> to argue that it got milder and milder. 
Again this wonderfully broad historical perspective or, to put it less
ironically, again this indiscriminate lumping of different places and times.
What happened in Russia between 1920 and 1937 (things getting worse and worse)
offers no parallel to what happened in Hungary between 1957 and 1989 (things
getting less and less worse). The point is, by the time communism went out it
was already in a softening period. Speculation whether nazism would have
reached a similar softening period is useless -- the German system was so
uncontrollable it had to be crushed from the outside long before it would have
reached the stage of softening. What little non-speculative evidence is
available comes from cases like Portugal, where the nazi dictatorship has
indeed softened over the years. In the end there was a peaceful transition,
and trials on the scale of Nurnberg would have been meaningless.

> When the Nazi regime ended in collapse a few decades later (it had its own 
> internal weaknesses) would you have spoken out against the Nurenburg trials?
In an actual case like Portugal, yes. In the hypothetical case you mention 
I don't know.

> As for the Hungarian situation, I would say that 1956 represented the 
> triumph of communism over its enemies with the post '56 leadership feeling 
> free to relax the repression. The Hungarian situation is complicated by 
> its colonial status. Who made the decisions there regarding repression is 
> an open question.
I think the "Moscow is responsible for everything" theory is a copout, and 
can't account for the fact that the degree of internal repression was 
considerably different in Hungary, Romania, or Poland. 

> Let's spin this idea a bit out. If the tolerated had stood up en masse and 
> refused to maintain their silence while the banned were being repressed 
> wouldn't the entire system have collapsed? 
Yes, and if manna fell from heaven nobody would ever go hungry.

> It's somewhat akin to the 
> passer by (or more accurately a crowd of passers by) seeing a mugging or a 
> drowning. If the passer by just keeps on walking a grave injury will occur 
> that can be prevented. There has never been a legal requirement to aid in 
> any major society that of I know but most people think that you are morally 
> in the wrong if you do nothing at all to try to help, no matter how little.
A passerby can save a drowning man, and a crowd of passers by can overpower a
mugger. But a single passerby can't save thousands from drowning and even a
crowd of unarmed passers by is incapable of dealing with a gang of armed
thugs. So I agree to the idea, but I don't think it particularly applies to 
the case of socialism. It's not that the Hungarians in 56, the Czechs in 68, 
or the Poles in 1981 haven't tried, but ultimately the waves of resentment 
had to reach the center for the whole system to collapse. 

> OTOH, if the great mass of society doesn't owe anything to those who were 
> banned, should those who really suffered get any preferential treatment from 
> society in the form of disability pensions for their suffering? I mean 
> after all, the tolerated would owe them nothing so why should they pay?
Why shouldn't they? I pay taxes which go to support the poor and the elderly,
and I'm obviously not responsible for their poverty or old age. Disability 
pensions exist in Hungary, and many victims of the post-56 repression or 
earlier atrocities draw such pensions. I don't have the slightest problem 
with this. 

Andra1s Kornai

Christine  > wrote:
 (Ray Fischer) wrote:
>>Ivan Marinov  > wrote:

>>>Stop this nonsense! Embryo is a human being, period.
>>
>>Stop your bullshit.  An embryo is not and never has been considered to
>>be a human being.
>
>It (at least) DEVELOPS into a human being.

Utterly irrelevent.  An acorn develops into an oak tree, but you
can't build a house from an acorn.  $10 in the bank will develop into
$250,000, but you can't buy a house with $10.

Further, many embryos do NOT develop into human beings.

>  But that baby 

We're talking about an embryo, NOT a "baby".  Get a CLUE!

>  can never be born
>and do great things

Or terrible things.

>if it's kill just because a woman can't take responsibilty
>for spreading her legs.

Ah, the inevitable anti-sex argument.

I bet it really frosts you to think that there are people who
actually _enjoy_ sex, doesn't it?

-- 
Ray Fischer

ARE HUNGARIANS MONGOLS? (Revised Version)Version 3


The Hungarians does not look any more Mongoloids for the same reasons the 
Turks in Istanbul
look European.

It is also true that the Hungarians of today look European.But their 
roots are Mongolic.

From Britannica :(Languages of the world)

"Racially the Uralic people present an unhomogeneous picture.In general 
they may be considered
a bland of Europeans and Mongoloid types,with the more western 
groups(especially the Hungarians,Baltic-Finnic and Erzya Mardvin groups) 
being strongly European and those of the Urals primarily Mongoloid".

From " De Administrado Imperio"by Constantine Porphyrogenitus (Byzantine 
Emperor,950AD)

"These eight clans of the TURKS(Hungarians)do not obey their own 
particular princes...,They 
have for their first chief the prince who comes by succession of Arpad's 
family..."
 

From The Hungarian Chronicle(1095AD):

"We (Hungarians) are descendants of the great Huns of Attila".

From "The Mongols" By Jeremiah Curtin

"Five groups of Mongols have made themselves famous in Europe:The Huns 
with their mighty chief Attila,the Magyars,The Turks or Osmanli,the 
Mongol invaders of Russia..."


From "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" By Edward Gibbon.

"The(Hungarians) are distinguished by the Greeks under the proper and 
peculiar name of Turks,
as descendants of that people who had conquered and reigned form China to 
the Volga (referring to the Mongols)".

From "The Cambridge Medieval History" edited by J.H.Hussey.

"The form ovyypoi,from which are derived the various names current to 
this day among the people of Europe(Old Church Slavonic,UGRI; Russian,
VENGRI;German,UNGARN;English,HUNGARIANS;French,HONGROIS;Italian,UNGHERESI,
and so on)comes from the Turkic ethnic name ONOGUR meaning TEN OGUR"

From "The Thirteenth Trib" by Arthur Koestler.

"We also hear of a fearful encounter which St.Cyril,the Apostle of the 
Slav,had with a Magyar horde in 860,on his way to Khazaria.He was saying 
his prayers when they rushed at him luporum more ululantes-HOWLING IN THE 
MANNER OF WOLVES".

From "Britannica"(Languages of the world).

"Recent study indicates that it is posible to speak of a Uralic racial 
type,an intermediate stage between the European and the Mongoloid,the 
basic features of which are medium-dark to dark hair and eye colour,
relatively small stature and often a concave bridge of the nose".
(Hungary is part of Uralic racial type).

From "Britanica" Hungarian.


"The proto-Hungarians were apparently an ethnic blend of Ugric(Mongoloid) 
and Turkish peoples living in western Siberia...The Hungarians were the 
scourge of Europe,raiding as far afield as Bremen,Orleans and 
Constantinople(the English word OGRE-a men eating man,hideous cruel man,
is a corruption of HUNGAR,attests to their notoriety).


From "1000 years of Hungary" By Emil Lengyel.


"(Hungarian) Folklore speaks about NIMROD the giant,who had two sons,
HUNOR and HAGAR.The former was the ancestor of the HUNS,and MAGOR was the 
ancestor of the MAGYARS."

"The experience the Magyars left with the Western world was so traumatic 
that even generations later people form the West saw the Hungarians as 
apocalyptic monsters. Bishop Otto of Freysing spoke of the exterior of 
the Hungarians as ‘ferocious' at the time of the Crusades :(Their eyes 
are sunken,their stature is short,their behavior wild,their language 
barbarous,so that one can either accuse fate or marvel at divine patience 
for having permitted these monsters the possession of an enchanting 
land)".


From "History of Hungary" By Denis Sinor


"Though, geographically speaking, of European origin, the Hungarians who 
settled in the Danube valley were,spiritually and materially, Asiatics, 
and belonged to the great Central Euroasiatic cultural family whose 
members lived dispersed form the Danube to China, from Persia and India 
to the Arctic. The Hungarian bows and arrows...were of exactly the same 
type as those used in Central Asia. As nomadic peoples generally do, the 
Hungarians disliked towns,and even houses,to which they preferred tents. 
According to Otto von Freisingen, as late as the middle of the twelfth 
century, summer and autumn were still spent under tents".

"It is, however quite certain that the Mongoloid type was well 
represented among them(Hungarians), and that they were, on the whole, of 
rather short stature, with short legs, bowed through continuous riding".


There are many more credible sources like these.

ARE HUNGARIANS MONGOLS? (Revised Version)Version 3


The Hungarians does not look any more Mongoloids for the same reasons the 
Turks in Istanbul
look European.

It is also true that the Hungarians of today look European.But their 
roots are Mongolic.

From Britannica :(Languages of the world)

"Racially the Uralic people present an unhomogeneous picture.In general 
they may be considered
a bland of Europeans and Mongoloid types,with the more western 
groups(especially the Hungarians,Baltic-Finnic and Erzya Mardvin groups) 
being strongly European and those of the Urals primarily Mongoloid".

From " De Administrado Imperio"by Constantine Porphyrogenitus (Byzantine 
Emperor,950AD)

"These eight clans of the TURKS(Hungarians)do not obey their own 
particular princes...,They 
have for their first chief the prince who comes by succession of Arpad's 
family..."
 

From The Hungarian Chronicle(1095AD):

"We (Hungarians) are descendants of the great Huns of Attila".

From "The Mongols" By Jeremiah Curtin

"Five groups of Mongols have made themselves famous in Europe:The Huns 
with their mighty chief Attila,the Magyars,The Turks or Osmanli,the 
Mongol invaders of Russia..."


From "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" By Edward Gibbon.

"The(Hungarians) are distinguished by the Greeks under the proper and 
peculiar name of Turks,
as descendants of that people who had conquered and reigned form China to 
the Volga (referring to the Mongols)".

From "The Cambridge Medieval History" edited by J.H.Hussey.

"The form ovyypoi,from which are derived the various names current to 
this day among the people of Europe(Old Church Slavonic,UGRI; Russian,
VENGRI;German,UNGARN;English,HUNGARIANS;French,HONGROIS;Italian,UNGHERESI,
and so on)comes from the Turkic ethnic name ONOGUR meaning TEN OGUR"

From "The Thirteenth Trib" by Arthur Koestler.

"We also hear of a fearful encounter which St.Cyril,the Apostle of the 
Slav,had with a Magyar horde in 860,on his way to Khazaria.He was saying 
his prayers when they rushed at him luporum more ululantes-HOWLING IN THE 
MANNER OF WOLVES".

From "Britannica"(Languages of the world).

"Recent study indicates that it is posible to speak of a Uralic racial 
type,an intermediate stage between the European and the Mongoloid,the 
basic features of which are medium-dark to dark hair and eye colour,
relatively small stature and often a concave bridge of the nose".
(Hungary is part of Uralic racial type).

From "Britanica" Hungarian.


"The proto-Hungarians were apparently an ethnic blend of Ugric(Mongoloid) 
and Turkish peoples living in western Siberia...The Hungarians were the 
scourge of Europe,raiding as far afield as Bremen,Orleans and 
Constantinople(the English word OGRE-a men eating man,hideous cruel man,
is a corruption of HUNGAR,attests to their notoriety).


From "1000 years of Hungary" By Emil Lengyel.


"(Hungarian) Folklore speaks about NIMROD the giant,who had two sons,
HUNOR and HAGAR.The former was the ancestor of the HUNS,and MAGOR was the 
ancestor of the MAGYARS."

"The experience the Magyars left with the Western world was so traumatic 
that even generations later people form the West saw the Hungarians as 
apocalyptic monsters. Bishop Otto of Freysing spoke of the exterior of 
the Hungarians as ‘ferocious' at the time of the Crusades :(Their eyes 
are sunken,their stature is short,their behavior wild,their language 
barbarous,so that one can either accuse fate or marvel at divine patience 
for having permitted these monsters the possession of an enchanting 
land)".


From "History of Hungary" By Denis Sinor


"Though, geographically speaking, of European origin, the Hungarians who 
settled in the Danube valley were,spiritually and materially, Asiatics, 
and belonged to the great Central Euroasiatic cultural family whose 
members lived dispersed form the Danube to China, from Persia and India 
to the Arctic. The Hungarian bows and arrows...were of exactly the same 
type as those used in Central Asia. As nomadic peoples generally do, the 
Hungarians disliked towns,and even houses,to which they preferred tents. 
According to Otto von Freisingen, as late as the middle of the twelfth 
century, summer and autumn were still spent under tents".

"It is, however quite certain that the Mongoloid type was well 
represented among them(Hungarians), and that they were, on the whole, of 
rather short stature, with short legs, bowed through continuous riding".


There are many more credible sources like these.

In article >,  (
yoshimi masuo) says:

Howdy folks!  

I want to visit ecseri flea market on nagykorsi u. this Saturday, but I 
found a sentence on th Rough Guide (traveler's guide) saying that it 
opens only on weekdays.  Is this true?

Also, how can I get to there from the airport using public 
transportation?

koszonom szepen!
yoshimi :)

 (Joe Pannon) writes:

>Thanks for the plug of his [Ja'nos Kornai] works.  
> As you may recall from an earlier flame
>war on that subject, I came across some of those books in a library before I
>even knew about you, and I had the impression that I was reading a book from
>a Kadar loyalist.  

That I find really surprising.  Which book was that, and what was in it
that sounded like a loyal work for Kadar ?

>As I recall, even Istvan Kertesz (RIP), otherwise no
>friend of mine, had the same opinion.  So thanks but no thanks.  Besides,
>the last thing I want is somebody explaining me with the jargon of the
>"dismal science" what the socialist system was/is like.  I experienced
>enough of it first hand. 

There is a considerable difference between someone stating that the socialist
system sucks and someone demonstrating thoroughly, using the internationally
accepted tools of the relevant science, why it doesn't work and cannot work.

>Why don't you recommend those books to some Ivory
>Tower type Westerners instead?

Because he doesn't need to.  Ja'nos Kornai's work is pretty well accepted
by economists worldwide and well known not merely by those economists 
specializing in the issues of existing/existed socialism.

And since professional opinion of Western economists was not particularly
swayed by Kadar's preferences for Hungarian intellectuals, you had better
take it as read that Ja'nos Kornai's stuff is good.

George Antony

 (Madalena Vilas Boas) wrote:

>Daniel Arias > wrote:

>>Asi que conectate a Internet Visual.... 
>>la mejor forma de Navegar en tu idioma!!!!

>Sera' que ha' ai alguem que fale castelhano e que mande um e-mail a
>este senhor a explicar que em Portugal nao se fala espanhol?

>Raios! Ate' os hispanicos nos confundem com os espanhois!

>	Jorge

Eu digo-lhes:

Oh marmelon!
Non vera usted que aqui o je non habla castellano. Hablo portugues.
Agradecia que o usted hablasse en portugues que nosotros non somos
obrigados a hablar castellano.
Muchas gracias carago.


Branco
Portugal

dear Lady,
	I thank you for the interesting document which is
	slightly off-topic on soc.culture.italian - as a
	matter of fact I have to notice that:
 (Maria Egorov) wrote:
>ARE HUNGARIANS MONGOLS? (Revised Version)Version 3
>
>The Hungarians does not look any more Mongoloids for the same reasons the Turk
s in Istanbul
>look European. It is also true that the Hungarians of today look European.But 
their 
>roots are Mongolic.
	Great people indeed, the best horse-riders of the Ancient Eurasia and
	also great archers. From a tecnological point of view I think
	that they build the most compact and efficent arches available 
	in that time - but if you want to discuss this you should go
	on an history discussion group.
	I am not a specialist about the history of that area but
	even if it is real that Hungarian roots are Mongols I do
	not see any relation between this and your first post
	in which you declared "I wander how you (note: Hungarians=Mongols)
	are going to dance without Germanic Help". However any
	discussion on this point should be moved to soc.culture.magyar
	given that very few people want to debate hungarian cultural
	inheritage on soc.culture.italian.
	Best Regards,
	Claudio De Diana

 wrote:
: Dear MEgorov,

: I think you should learn more about Hungary and the Hungarians before
: you start flamewars like this. Do you know facts about the present
: state of Hungary ? If I look the contents of your letters I must say
: you don't.

: If you want to criticize a country or a nation you should know
: something about it, don't you think ?


 I agree with you Tommy. See my followup post to this regard
which is with the attack post itself. 
-t-
peace,
Roger John Magyar

		    
		http://astro.ocis.temple.edu/~tarantul

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  V    V         V          }' `\ /' `{          V         V    V
  `    `         `               V               '         '    '

[===================================================================]
[ On July 8/96 in >                ]
[  (Wally Keeler) wrote:                           ]
[ |Wrong. The great Hungarian poet, George Faludy, visited my home  ]
[ |several times. He's a Jew. He suffered at the hands of the Nazis.]
[ |He also suffered at the hands of the Communists. He is proud of  ]
[ |his Hungarian identity, his Hungarian language, his Hungarian    ]
[ |culture. In spite of 20 fruitful and peaceful years in Toronto,  ]
[ |Canada, his Hungarianness compelled him to return to his beloved ]
[ |Hungary to end his days in his homeland.                         ]
[ |                                                                 ]
[ |A good friend of Faludy's, George Egri, also a Hungarian Jew,    ]
[ |who lived in Toronto for decades, returned to Hungary after the  ]
[ |Communists ate dirt. He was a journalist and columnist in        ]
[ |Toronto. I had many visits with him at his home and mine. When I ]
[ |met up with him in Budapest, he waxed poetic about being "home,  ]
[ |I am home again." George Egri also suffered the same situation   ]
[ | as George Faludy.                                               ]
[===================================================================]

So Ms said:

   [============================================================]
   [ On July 9/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:     ]
   [ |Any gesture of public relation(like inviting Jews to your ]
   [ |home,etc.)will attenuate the pain,but they will definitely]
   [ |not become the Hungarians, Austrians or Germans you wish  ]
   [ |them to be(PERIOD)                                        ]
   [============================================================]

And I wrote:

[====================================================================]
[ On July 11/96 in >               ]
[  (Wally Keeler) wrote:                            ]
[ |If you read George Faludy's autobiographical book, My Happy Days  ]
[ |In Hell, you'd find that he had no problem with being a Hungarian ]
[ |and Jew. He made absolutely no effort to hide nor to even play    ]
[ |down the fact. He was neither ashamed of being Hungarian nor      ]
[ |Jewish. He certainly didn't BECOME AMERICAN. Although he moved to ]
[ |Toronto for a couple decades, and appreciated it more than any    ]
[ |other place, he remained a proud Hungarian and Jew, even with     ]
[ |Canadian citizenship. I knew other Hungarians and Jews and they   ]
[ |never expressed the kind of crap you think they do.               ]
[====================================================================]

Please explain why you know that George Faludy or George Egri feel angst
("attentuate the pain") whenever they visited my home or when I visited them?
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

 (Maria Egorov)wrote:
|Mr.,I attacked[*] you on two fronts 
|1. The identity of the Hungarians.
|2. The identity of the Jews living in Hungary.

[citations from assorted books deleted]

Ms., I challenged your contentions on several fronts.

Your quoted citations address none of the specifics I raised, nor do they
answer in any way, the questions I posed to you. Perhaps, my posting was
too lengthy for you comprehend; therefore, I will break it down into
specific items and request that you reply to each of them.

*Your use of the word "attacked" above is inadvertently informative about
your character Ms. I use the word Ms to refer to you since you do not
extend any possibility of courtesy of using names, first or last, just Mr.
I think it is in keeping with your posts -- you are unable to see
individuals -- you only see races, ethnics, etc. You are cold and distant,
hence you cannot permit yourself to be fully human and use my name, Wally,
or Mr Keeler. By just using Mr., which you have used on others, you
maintain your own private Berlin Wall of Personality. From the inside
looking out, you are unaware that what you have created is in actual fact a
Berlin Wall of Perversonality. Very sad Ms. In keeping with your style and
cold character, I will adopt your method and avoid using your name in any
regard -- using it is, after all, merely human.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

[================================================================]
  [ On July 7/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:         ]
  [ |The Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced labor camps   ]
  [ |and GAS CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity which was concluded    ]
  [ |proudly by the Hungarians, without German supervision).       ]
  [================================================================]

You claim that the forced evacuation of Hungarian Jews was "concluded
proudly by the Hungarians." Can you provide documentation that proves that
the VAST MAJORITY of the population of Hungary was PROUD to evacuate
Hungarian Jews to death camps?

Would you agree that the following would be a far more accurate way of
stating your contention:

  [================================================================]
  [ |Many Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced labor camps  ]
  [ |and GAS CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity which was concluded    ]
  [ |proudly by a few Hungarians, with Nazi supervision).          ]
  [================================================================]

Please reply specifically.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

[===========================================================]
    [  On July 16/96 in >  ]
    [   (Maria Egorov) claimed:              ]
    [  |Mr.,I attacked you on two fronts                        ]
    [  |1. The identity of the Hungarians.                      ]
    [  |2. The identity of the Jews living in Hungary.          ]
    [===========================================================]

In the beginning:

    [===========================================================]
    [  On July 6/96 in >   ]
    [   (Maria Egorov) declared:             ]
    [  |...the Nobel Prize Winners you prezented to us are all  ]
    [  |nonHungarians.(Look Britanica,There are no Hungarin     ]
    [  |Nobel Prize Winners.) They were Germans ,Slavs or Jews. ]
    [===========================================================]

First intervention:
  
  [===============================================================]
  [ On July 6/96  (Liviu Iordache) quoted  ]
  [ from the Britannica:                                          ]
  [ |Wigner, Eugene Paul, Hungarian JENO PAL WIGNER (b. Nov. 17,  ]
  [ |1902, Budapest, Hung.--d. Jan. 1, 1995, Princeton, NJ US)    ]
  [ |Hungarian-born American physicist, joint winner with J. Hans ]
  [ |D. Jensen of West Germany and Maria Goeppert Mayer of the    ]
  [ |United States of the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1963. He     ]
  [ |received the prize for his many contributions to . . .       ]
  [ |                                                             ]
  [ |Olah, George A. in full GEORGE ANDREW OLAH (b. May 22, 1927, ]
  [ |Budapest, Hung.) Hungarian-American chemist who won the 1994 ]
  [ |Nobel Prize in Chemistry for work conducted in the early     ]
  [ |1960s that isolated carbocations...                          ]
  [===============================================================]

The next day:

   [============================================================]
   [ On July 7/96  (Maria Egorov) declared:  ]
   [ |In the list of the so called Hungarian scientists you     ]
   [ |included Austrians like Robert Barany, Richard Zsiymondy, ]
   [ |etc. The rest of the scientists presented by you are Jews ]
   [ |and Slavs. Many of them having their names magyarized.    ]
   [============================================================]

I query:

[===================================================================]
[  On July 8/96 in >               ]
[   (Wally Keeler) wrote:                          ]
[  |Being born in Hungary's capital city confers no Hungarianness   ]
[  |upon a person? Growing up within Hungary, within the Hungarian  ]
[  |language, within the Hungarian culture, within the Hungarian    ]
[  |educational system confers no Hungarianness upon a person? In   ]
[  |spite of this Wigner and Olah cannot be regarded as Hungarians  ]
[  |or should be regarded as "nonHungarians" as you put it? Please  ]
[  |explain Maria Egorov. Please do.                                ]
[===================================================================]

Can you cite any publication in which Wigner or Olah had ever denied their
Hungarianness? Is there any proof anywhere that Wigner or Olah covered-up
their Hungarianness? Present your facts Ms.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >,
    (ANDREW ROZSA) wrote:
>Just to confuse the foreigners:
>
>  Sajnalom, de kave, az nincs!
>
Good, we coul go on with this:

Sajnalom, de kave sincs.


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

Howdy folks!  

I want to visit ecseri flea market on nagykorsi u. this Saturday, but I found a
 sentence on th Rough Guide (traveler's guide) saying that it opens only on wee
kdays.  Is there anybody who knows if it is open on Saturday, Jul. 20?

Also, how can I get to there from the airport using public transportation?

koszonom szepen!
yoshimi :)

Howdy ya'll!  

I have this question about ta'ncha'z. During this summer, which ta'ncha'z is he
ld?  I read in the tanchaz page (http://www.datanet.hu/tanchaz/thclub.htm) that
 Friday's ta'ncha'z is held in gyo:ker, but is this true?  Is there any on Satu
rday and Sunday?

I will head for Budapest on this Friday (7/19), so I'll appreciate prompt respo
nse.  Ko:szo:no:m!

yoshimi :)

In article >, 
(Tami S. Garza) wrote:

@Christine > wrote:
@
 (Ray Fischer) wrote:
@>>Ivan Marinov  > wrote:
@>>>Peter Szaszvari wrote:
@>>
@>>>> And furthermore: we cannot kill an embryo because it is not an
@>>>> independent being. (HAHAHA)
@>>>
@>>>Stop this nonsense! Embryo is a human being, period.
@>>
@>>Stop your bullshit.  An embryo is not and never has been considered to
@>>be a human being.
@>>
@>>-- 
@>>Ray Fischer

@>
@>It (at least) DEVELOPS into a human being.  But that baby can never be 
@>born and do great things if it's kill just because a woman can't take 
@>responsibilty for spreading her legs.
@>
@>Christine
@>
@>
@Christine:
@
@You must really be stupid if that is the best you can come up with. If
@you are so stuck on sex is bad, therefor any woman who has sex is bad,
@etc, etc, etc, then you need some intensive psychiatric counseling
@before you have children to spread your sickness to.
@
@        Tami

You're not putting thoughts into her head, are you now?  She seems to be
advocating personal responsibility, a position that many psychiatrists
would love their patients advocate (or at least I hope they would).

In article >,  (
yoshimi masuo) says:

Howdy ya'll!  

I have this question about ta'ncha'z. During this summer, which ta'ncha'z 
is held?  I read in the tanchaz page 
(http://www.datanet.hu/tanchaz/thclub.htm) that there is one on Friday at 
gyo:ker, but is this true?  Also is there any on Saturday and Sunday?

I will head for Budapest on this Friday (7/19), so I'll appreciate 
prompt response.  Ko:szo:no:m!

yoshimi :)

In article >,  () wrote:
>Sikerult megszereznem a Petofi Radio interjujanak szoveget NPA-val, amit
>az alabbiakban kozlok.  A Radiotol megkaptam annak Interneten valo
>kozlesi jogat is, amiert koszonetet mondok Szilagyi Arpadnak.
>Amennyiben ezt valaki le akarja kozolni az s.c.m.-en kivul mas Internet
>ujsagban is, az megteheti az interjut megelozo jogi hivatkozasok
>figyelembevetelevel.
[...]

Ez csodalatos, hogyan sikerult Nemenyinek elerni, hogy a Petofiben interjut 
keszitsenek vele?


Szaszvari Peter
(http://iap11.ethz.ch/users/szp/szp.htm)

On 16 Jul 1996, Christine wrote:

> It (at least) DEVELOPS into a human being.  But that baby can never be 
> born
> and do great things if it's kill just because a woman can't take 
> responsibilty
> for spreading her legs.
> 
> Christine

  The baby would most probably NOT do great things, if it ends up in
  an orphanage, or is brought up with parents who never wanted him/her
  in the first place.
  Ever wonder why our society is poluted with so many people filled with
  hatred and frustration??  Ever wondered why there are so many people
  with mental problems....And all those mass murderers, ever checked
  the families they come from?? -- Well a lot of them don't have such.
  Psychos and murderers are rather closer to being animals, then humans.
  The difference is the margin of intelectual potential (most of which
  is not utilized at all).
  One thing is giving birth to a being, another is CREATING a HUMAN being.
  

  j.nail

AND Books ) wrote:

>don't over-analyze this thing! 

>1. The hungarian word for coffee iz "k.v."
>2. The noun ka've' stands as all nouns (e.g. vi'z, tej, pe'nz stb)
>3. Possessive for nouns is with an "-m" (e.g. vi'zem, tejem, pe'nzem stb)
                                              ^^^^^^^^
Vizem (without the accent).

>4. Dative for nouns is with a "-d" (e.g. vi'zed, tejed, pe'nzed stb)

Again: vized.

>5. Accusative for nouns is with a "-t" (e.g. vi'zet, tejet, pe'nzet stb)

Again: vizet, and the form pe'nzet is funny, it should be pe'nzt.

Well, Hungarian is simple:

Nominative: to' , so' , lo' 
Accusative tavat, so't, lovat

Logical, isn't it? ;-)

Andras

In article > Zsoter Andras,
 writes:
>Nominative: to' , so' , lo' 
>Accusative tavat, so't, lovat

>Logical, isn't it? ;-)

Also:
kerék --> kerekes
fenék --> fenekes
derék --> derekas  ;-)

Tamás

Tisztelt levelezotarsaim!

Az okori olimpiak szep hagyomanya volt, hogy a jatekok idejere az egymassal
haboruzo felek felfuggesztettek harci cselekmenyeiket. Most, az atlantai
olimpiai jatekok megnyitasanak kozeledtevel szeretnem azt javasolni a SCM
tisztelt levelezoinek: a'ssa'k el a csataba'rdot ket hetre, es
osszpontositsanak az olimpia esemenyeire. 

Lesz mit nezni, es bizom benne, lesz kiert szurkolni is. Minthogy a
legfontosabb esemenyek magyar ido szerint ejjel tortennek, arra kerem az
Atlanti Ocean tuloldalan elo levelezotarsaimat, akik ebbol a szempontbol
kedvezobb helyzetben lesznek, hogy a SCM utjan (is) tajekoztassak az O'haza
Internet-kozosseget a legfrissebb eredmenyekrol, elsosorban termeszetesen
honfitarsaink szerepleserol. Szeretnem, ha az Ocean ket partjan (es persze a
tobbi kontinensen) elo magyarok egyutt orulhetnenek egy-egy fenyes magyar
sikernek.

Hogy valamit en is adjak a ke're's melle':

Bardosi Gyorgy > osszeallitast kozolt a Ferencvarosi
Torna Club Foruman > (mert ilyen is van!) azokrol
a www-cimekrol, amelyeken az olimpia esemenyei nyomon kovethetok. Levele egy
reszletet most atadom a SCM olvasoinak. [Kerdesemre, hogy levele't a fenti
cel erdekeben kozolhetem-e, a kovetkezot valaszolta:
>                     ...Maximalisan tamogatom a javaslatodat es ha
>csak ezen mulik tolem akar az egre is lehet festeni ezeket a cimeket.
>Mar amennyiben a beket szolgalja. De szep is lenne ha csak ennyin mulna
>a beke es a nyugalom. Egesz nap a Neten lognek es gyujtenem a cimeket. :)...]

>---------------------------------------------
>X-Listname: Forum a Ferencvarosi Torna Clubrol 
>
>Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 12:36:04 +0200
>From: Gyorgy Bardosi >
>To: 
>Subject: Re: Olimpia Second Edition
>---------------------------------------------
>Sziasztok!
>
>On Mon, 15 Jul 1996  wrote:
>
>>      Keresek olyan www c!met, ahol az eredmenyek on-line megvannak. Nem 
>>      csak a donto, hanem mondjuk az elofutamok, selejtezok eredmenyei is 
>>      azonnal latszanak ...
>
>
>Utananeztem a dolognak es [...] osszeszedtem egy parat.
>Eleg szep kinalat van beloluk legyen energiatok vegig nezni :)
>Bar hajnalban a kozvetitesek alatt egy-egy reklam idejere alkalmas
>kikapcsolodas. Lassuk:
>
>- A hivatalos olimpiai oldal
>                http://www.atlanta.olympic.org
>
>- A Nemzetkozi Olimpiai Bizottsag Home-Page:
>                http://www.olympic.org
>
>- Atlanta Games - egy kotetlenebb forma
>                http://www.atlantagames.com/
>
>- PointCast online szolgaltatasa percre pontos eredmenyeket iger.
>                http://www.pointcast.com/
>                
>- Itt megnezhetitek az osszes eddigi olimpia minden(?) adatat. Meg nem
>volt idom ellenorizni, hogy valoban ott van-e minden. :)
>                http://sports.eb.com/
>
>- Egy kicsit omlesztve:
>
>http://cnn.com/SPORTS/OLYMPICS/ - CNN
>http://www.olympics.nbc.com/ - NBC
>http://www.usatoday.com/olympics/olyfront.htm - USA Today
>http://pathfinder.com/si/athens/olyhome.html - Sports Illustrated Online
>http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/ - Yahoo
>http://www.msnbc.com/specials/olympics/default.htm - MSNBC
>http://ESPNET.SportsZone.com/editors/atlanta96/ - ESPN SportZone
>http://www.sportsline.com/u/olympics/index.html - SportsLine
>
>Ezek mellett meg kb. millio dolog szol az olimpiarol.
>Kivancsi leszek, hogy mennyire fogom elerni ezeket az adatokat a Jatekok
>alatt. Biztos megfexenek a serverek egy kicsit. :)
>
>Sziasztok!                              --- Bardosi Gyorgy ---
>---------------------------------------------

Koszonjuk, Bardosi Gyuri! 
HAJRA' MAGYAROK!!!

                                        Jalsovszky Gyorgy