Egy hir  Karpataljarol:

"Mindenkeppen a terrorizmus celpontja lenne a Vereckei-hagora 
tervezett millecentenariumi emlekmu, ha megis felepulne. Marpedig 
ez negativan befolyasolna az ukran-magyar nemzetisegi viszonyt, 
illetve Ukrajna es Magyarorszag allamkozi kapcsolatait. A karpataljai 
magyarsag ezt ketsegkivul meg fogja erteni, csak a vezetoinek kell 
helyesen feltarniuk elotte a dolgok valodi allasat, s ugy nem romlik 
meg az ukran-magyar viszony - all abban a terjedelmes 
memorandumban, amelyet ket orszagos politikai part, a tobb 
parlamenti kepviselovel is rendelkezo Ukran Nacionalistak 
Kongresszusa (KUN) es az Ukran Koztarsasag Part (URP) karpataljai 
szervezeteinek a valasztmanya juttatott el a megye valamennyi 
magyar szervezetehez es a megyei allami kozigazgatas vezetesehez. A 
dokumentum szerint egyes magyar korok mar jo ideje propagandat 
folytatnak Karpataljan, hogy a fuggetlen ukran allam ellen hangoljak 
a magyar lakossag tobbseget. . . Az emlitett erok allnak - mint az iras 
fogalmaz - a legujabb magyarellenes hangulatkeltes mogott Karpataljan,
 mivel vegso celjuk az, hogy kiszakitsak a teruletet Ukrajnabol." 

   Felhaborito aljassag es hazugsag! A ket ukran  nacionalista partnak a valodi
 uzenete
Karpataljanak vilagos: ha felepititek  a Vereckei-hagora a millecentenariumi em
lekmuvet, akkor
azt felrobbantjuk!  Es ez nem tesz jot az ukran-magyar viszonynak! 
   Elkepeszto cinizmussal (ami nagyon jellemzo volt a szovjet rendszerre) az uk
ran nacionalistak 
sakkban probaljak tartani a karpataljai nepet, amely koldussa szegenyedve ketse
gbeesetten
vergodik, most mar az ukranok elnyomasatol, es autonomiarol almodozik...
   Ime, az Antall-Jeszenszky arulas torvenyszeru kovetkezmenye. Az ukran-magyar
 szerzodes az
ukranoknak csak arra kellett, hogy szabad kezet kapjanak Karpataljan a kisebbse
gi kerdes
"rendezeseben".
   Ukrajna gazdasaga romokban hever, a kb.1 milio magyar es ruszin nep szabadsa
ga nem
garantalt, a le'te fenyegetett! Szerintem itt az ideje, hogy a magyar lobby a k
arpataljai kerdessel is 
hatarozottabban  foglalkozzon.  Ukrajnara  eroteljes nyomast kell gyakorolni! N
e felejtsuk:
Karpatalja tobb mint 1000 evig Magyarorszag szerves resze volt!

Szucs Istvan irja:

>Hogy ne kelljen utanad keresni, ha arrol van szo, hogy azt
>irtam hogy a veled keszult interview igazolja hogy a Petofi
>radioban nincs kezzel iranyitott liberalis cenzura, ezt
>allitottam,  fenntartom, de semmit nem von le a te ugyeddel
>kapcsolatos allasfoglalassal, nem is ellentetes vele. Nem
>tartom es nem is tartottam titokban hogy sok kerdesben
>szogesen ellentetes a velemenyunk, de nem hiszem hogy lyan
>megnyilatkozast talalnal a reszemrol ami nem teljes
>mertekben elitelne a politikai boszorkanyuldozest
>ellened. Ebben azert vagyok biztos, mert ezzel kapcsolatos
>velemenyem az elso perctol kezdve hatarozott es valtozatlan.
>En, es ugy hittem te is - ezt fontosnak tartottad, ebben
>az ugyben, mert itt nem liberalis konzervativ, vagy
>nacionalista antinacionalista, filoszemita, antiszemita, stb
>ellentetrol lenne szo, hanem ennel alapvetobb dologrol,
>politikai uldozesrol, a gondolat es iras szabadsagarol
>stb. 

Igazad van. Nem talaltam olyan kitetelt ami fenti soraidat az 
ugyemmel kapcsolatosan ketsegbe vonna. Tehat nem marad mas hatra,
mint, hogy kerem elnezesedet.

Oszinten, onszantambol, kerlek ne haragudj kiszolasomert, ami
ez esetben teljes mertekben alaptalan volt.

NPA.

In article >,  says...
>
>On Wed, 24 Jul 1996 21:53:20 +0100, Dmitry Gryaznov
> wrote:
>
>>I live in England now and, naturally, I use English all the time - by far
>>more often than I use Russian. But I do not feel myself oppressed or
>>discriminated in any sense :) It's England, after all! And I am still
>>free to and do use Russian at home or while communicating to other
>>Russian speakers, I read Russian books, listen Russian radio and am
>>seriously considering buying a special satellite receiver to watch
>>Russian TV. -Nobody- is forcing me to surrender my language.
>>Aren't you in a similar situation in the States? Do you protest
>>against English being virtually the only language used, spoken and
>>heard everywhere?
>

Mr. Volodin now starts to teach us and others all about America:
( Pssst: he knows so much about America,  because he’s a foreigner!:)

>Except that 
>"v mestah kompaktnogo prozhivaniya" 

Hmm..... above must be some sort of animal retching...
no human throat could possibly produce that!
Should this be “allowed” ? Is it “ official” :)


>of speakers of certain
>language (Chinese in China-towns, Russian on Brighton Beach, Spanish,
>Vietnamese etc.) these languages are used in almost all "official" and
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>not-so-official circumstances - 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Especially the important one, that’s Russian of-course.
Where would we Americans all be without that one for
“almost all "official" and not-so-official circumstances -”
in certain areas and parts of the country where there are
a lot of Russians?

Hmm....
How would one tell a drunk not to vomit on the sidewalk in New York  
if you didn’t speak Russian to her or hit him, in Brighton Beach?
Same thing either way  I suppose.....
Never go there again.......

>on street signs,

Street signs?
In China Town in New York City? Yes. English as well, since you forgot to menti
on that...
Russian * street signs * in Brighton Beach? I don't recall seeing any.
What are you talking about?
Maybe all those alcoholics had taken them down when I visited, their men
must have told them to do that in anticipation of my arrival so as not to frigh
ten me.

Polish, Greek, Italian, Albanian street signs? Never saw that either.
Spanish street signs in the * Bronx * ? 
I have never seen * any * Spanish street signs in New York City, 
even in the * Bronx * .  Still, Spanish speaking peoples,
usually learn everything much faster then Ex-Soviets and with less resentment.
(Except in Cuba)


>in ATM instructions,

These are by * private * banks, not * official * governmental bodies.
Banks in this country, Mr. Volodin. nor those magical for you, ATM machines, ar
e
not even remotely considered, “official “ or  even “not so official”.
No one makes Chinese cooks speak English in Chinese restaurants either.
You can conduct your business and speak with your customers
in whatever language you wish. So what? 
You had better file your tax forms, licenses, comply with banking regulations, 
health inspections,
etc. in the * unofficial * American-English language of this government,
unless you want to make your life and everyone else's life here, very difficult
.
You can’t pick whatever  language you feel like using here for these purposes, 
and for many valid 
reasons,
This  is difficult to explain to you in a way you can understand, I know.
See  the excellent posts by  the Romanian gentleman, Mr. T. Lutas and others , 
regarding the language threads, concerning Ukrainian and Russian Legal  Languag
e Status. 
He was explaining it to soviets,
so it’s broken down slowly and  painstakingly explained, step by step.
He doesn’t use Hegelian logic, so it will be difficult for you to understand.


>in public school systems' leaflets, balloting papers etc.

Not particularly widespread throughout * all * these United States
and everywhere as you seem to imply, but yes, you are correct. It sometimes hap
pens,
here and there, for awhile.
I would not give it such an undue emphasis, as you apparently
are seeking to do here. 
This very undue emphasis, that you give,  
might only serve to give a  very false impression.
Perhaps Mr. Volodin, you don't really understand, as
you are just a simple foreigner and not an American citizen,
who as you voiced, seem to think he, and some’ “theoretical dude from Magadan i
n Siberia”
 is of more “importance”
and of “interest” to America because he is a Russian national 
and * not * a citizen, “money wise” as you said when you 
assumed that because you made more money then I,   ( how do you know-???
and you miss the point anyway :))
or the “average”  American in terms of statistics, you should somehow,
be given some sort of ill defined priority over myself or that 
“average” American citizen.  Excellent reasoning sir! 
This is not like the Soviet Union where your Communist Party 
status, or in Ex-Soviet Russia, where your criminal status,
gives you extra privileges over others.
So even though you have been here in my country awhile, you couldn't
possibly understand  matters as well as someone born here, or a citizen.
Especially given the fact that you were born in what was then, the
Soviet Union.

(Hmm....  who was your reigning God-Emperor, when you were bred there?)

No back to, “public school systems' leaflets, balloting papers etc.”
 
This is a "gray" area here, in which you, indeed, do have a * few * 
educational and voting districts, doing that. in certain isolated areas
of these United States of America.
These are, * always *  areas with a heavy, recent immigrant
populations,  and done at least, until they are assimilated into
what is called the "American Mainstream", or in older times,
the "American Dream". 
The  * standard *  non-official language, these people learn, seems to be Ameri
can-English,
even if they are next to a Hungarian neighborhood, which is next to 
a Polish neighborhood, etc.
Nor is the Spanish neighborhood particularly interested in "conquistadoring"
the Irish area and claiming it for the Dominican Republic, etc. and declaring 
themselves autonomous or independent.

The history of the waves of immigration to America, is fascinating and unique.
You should read about it some time. 
At various times in the past, * nothing *, “ballots” etc. was done in anything 
but the * unofficial *
language of American-English, then you had various nativist bouts etc.
(see T.Lutas again)
like now, which won't last long because of spiraling costs, such as 
food stamps and welfare (many recipients of which are foreigners 
from your country, Russia, Mr. Volodin).
 
Curiously, none of these areas or districts are hostile to the concept
of American independence, speak openly of national dismemberment, violence,
or seek to surrender themselves and other citizens to a foreign, hostile power.
In the American case here, the greatest threat would be the Canadians. :)

[Except perhaps the Brighton Beach area, filled with Russians? 
Maybe so...... I don’t know
about them, they do think rather very differently from anyone else.]

I am not particularly sure that those Canadians, next door to us, will genocide
millions of US citizens and deport millions more to the sub Arctic Circle,
and make every American say "Eh?" a lot, and fight in Cheechna.
At least, they have not demonstrated a history of such in the past.
Still..... Canadians you know..... who can tell about them?

There is a sort of a National Glue in this country.
Every nation should have it. It can for some nations be ethnic, cultural,
lingual, religious etc.
In all the Ex-Soviet Republics, in Russia (and particularly on Usenet ;)
many Russians are hostile to the concept of independence for the 
formerly Russian controlled and heavily Russified nations now free.
There they strongly resist the de-Russification/de-Sovietization, of these
nations.    

Whilst there is no * official * "American" language as you correctly pointed ou
t
in these United States, there is a “National Glue” here.
In the case of Ukraine, the Baltic Nations, the connection 
between language, culture, and a  national (not necessarily
ethnic) identity is important. This serves among many reasons besides
the ethical and moral one, as a National Glue besides the deRussification,
deSovietization, and restoring of cultures and modern nation building etc.
Which you seem to feel threatened by.
Will Estonia conquer Russia?
With the Chechens fighting on, the Russia Army can’t handle them alone
and simultaneously have to deal with a second war front  you know.
Should they request more aid and more of my tax money from Americans?


>More of that- there's _no_ official language in the US of A.

This they say, will change, please refer to T. Lutas' excellent posts in the 
thread on Ukrainian and Russian language status again. 
He is quite correct when he says that polls show a 
consistently high and growing higher, per centage of American citizens favoring
 making 
American-English an  * official *  language, as in actuality, it already is, in
 all
  * official *  * communications * between governmental
bodies, official directives, laws made, proposed and passed etc.
in all federal, state and local jurisdictions, regardless of ethnic component.
It would be, and when it does happen, it will be a very benign measure,
opposed by no one, except probably Russians such as yourself who bear
a hostility to the country and citizenry they reside in.

>
>>I repeat, -nobody- is -forcing- Russian speaking population of
>>Ukraine to switch completely to Ukrainian. Heh, who can possibly
>>force about at least 40% of the population (more than 20,000,000!)
>>to do so! So, the transition will not happen overnight, don't
>>you worry. It will be your grandchildren or even great-grandchildren
>>at best who will use primarily Ukrainian. And for them it will be
>>just natural - like it is becoming more and more natural for my son
>>to use mainly English in the almost exclusively English environment.
>>Or maybe not even your great-grandchildren. Look at Ireland, for example.
>>Despite the state language being Irish and being heavily supported
>>and promoted by the state, the majority of the population still speak
>>English as their main language. But I do appreciate Irish state goal
>>to see Ireland speaking Irish. And I do appreciate Ukrainian state goal
>>to see Ukraine speaking Ukrainian.
>
>Did you see Irish street signs lately?

Brilliant retort!
In  ** England ** proper, I don't imagine there would be street signs in Gaelic
(or in the "Irish" language, as you prefer to say).
Nor even in American-English with the “correct” spelling such as “color”
rather then  that barbaric  “colour” etc.   :(

I, as well as Mr. Gryaznov, can admire and respect the position of the Irish
government in restoring Gaelic ("Irish") as a language for Ireland.
Esp. so when you consider the genocide and cruelties perpetrated
by the English in Ireland for many centuries.
I must presume you are either unaware or indifferent to that.


>
>>I fail to see anything wrong with this - IMNHO, it's nothing but
>>natural.
>
>Chto estestvenno - to ne stydno. Nu da, nu da.

This I do not understand. Something snide, on your part I presume?
Of no importance.
European countries have official languages.
The Baltic Nations have as well.
The Baltic Nations are a more relevant example, from the
point of view of Ex-Soviet Republics, given the horrors 
they and their cultures have endured, in terms of Russification,
mass deportations etc.
Don't you think so?
Or are  you also, either unaware or indifferent to that?
I guess so.

Historically speaking:
Should the Austrian form of German and the Hungarian language, have been made 
the * second * and * third *   * official *   languages in all the nations once
 ruled 
by the Dual Monarchy of the Austro-Hungarian Empire after the fall of the Empir
e?

The Austrians and Hungarians weren't so bad either, 
for the most part, in terms of their treatment of their subject nations,
as compared with the Russian or Soviet Empires.
Surely you must have learned that when you went to
your  * Soviet *  secondary school Mr. Volodin and where you were
educated and acquired your bedrock ethical values.

I thought that Mr. Gryaznov, in giving his insights, experiences,
drawn from real life, viewed in terms of his personal and family life, from Ukr
aine,
Russia, other Ex-Soviet "Republics", England, Ireland, has provided us with
a well reasoned, just, moral, ethical, compassionate and practical look at a
"problem" some people seem to have.
His analysis also makes it clear that he is an educated man, as opposed to your
self.

Far too many people have been screaming alarms, making vague
and not so vague threats of war, death, national dismemberment, 
saying out and out falsehoods, making insulting jokes about the 
Ukrainian language (and no doubt about others as well) etc.
A rather poor, and dangerous attitude is being shown.
Not very nice at all.

I know , Mr. Gryaznov, you certainly must be a true patriot of your country.
You and Russians like you are to be respected, for you give respect.

Cheers Mr. Gryaznov!


alex


>
>>     Dmitry O. Gryaznov       | Alton House, Office Park, Gatehouse Way,
>
>Dima

On July 25/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:
|On July 21/96  (Wally Keeler) wrote: 
|>On July 20/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:
|>|RESPONSE: Mr.,you got to be of an illogical tipe.Where did you learn all 
|>                                              /   \
|>                                The word is type   \
|>                                learn to spell &    \
|>                                don't be so ill-     There should be a
|>                                logical.             space here. Learn
|>                                                     some basic sentence
|>                                                     construction Ms.
|>
|>|these?. Go to school Mr. Or put someone else to "tolk" like  FRED HAMORI.
|>    |                                              /
|>  this                             Given the decrepitude
|>                                   of your postings, you
|>                                   are in no position to
|>                                   ridicule others. Perhaps
|>                                   you should return to
|>                                   kindergarten.
|>
|>|Try a good school like OXFORD.(do not go to the German once any more).
|>                               /                         |
|>                    Capitalize the first              one/ones
|>                    letter in a sentence                
|>                    and space between two               
|>                    sentences.
|>
|>|I refuse to "tolk" to you becouse you are not educated enouth(in other...
|>                              |                            |
|>                           because                      enough
|> 
|>(Obviously, you are totally uneducated, much worse than your respondent).
|
|You people attacked my person (calling me names).You attacked the modality 
|I write. You did not attack my article. THIS IS AN ILLOGICAL APPROACH.
|
|I have to apologize for not paying attention to my spelling. I type over 
|120 wpm and I do not spent the usual three hours to write an article, 
|like yourself. My limited time forced me to ignore spelling.

Apology insufficient and unacceptable. Instead of bragging of your "Olympic"
typing speed, why not slow down long enough to press a couple keys that call
up the spell checker -- you are smart enough to know how to do that -- and
it doesn't take three hours.

I did not attack your list of other people's quotations. However, I did
attack YOUR articles and did a damn good job of doing so, enough that it has
left you speechless for an answer -- largely because I revealed you for the
bag of wind and intellectual fraud that you are; for example, I attacked
this article of yours:

  On July 23/96 > (Maria Egorov) claimed:
      [----------------------------------------------------------------]
      [ I know lots of Hungarians in United States and other foreign   ]
      [ lands who are presenting the Romanians as Gipses.Advancing the ]
      [ idea that ROM=ROMANIAN=GYPSY.                                  ]
      [----------------------------------------------------------------]

I asked:
      [================================================================]
      [ So you know LOTS OF HUNGARIANS. Then prove it, liar. List the  ]
      [ names of just a few and provide citations to prove that "lots  ]
      [ of Hungarians" are advancing the idea that Romanians are       ]
      [ Gypsies. Prove it. Or are you just a RACIST LIAR? Prove your   ]
      [ statement, Egorova.                                            ]
      [================================================================]

But of course you are too much of a coward to cite your sources. I don't
think you know any Hungarians, let alone "lots of Hungarians", let further
alone, "lots of Hungarians"..."presenting Romanians as Gypsies". That is why
I call you a liar. You accuse the Hungarian people of slandering another
people, but fail to realize that that is exactly what you are doing -- and
that is one of the characteristics of a racist. If that is calling you a
name, (coward, liar, racist) then so be it -- I call it like it is. You are
also a hypocrite, because you demand others to cite their sources or reply
to your attacks, but fail to provide your when called upon.

For example:

On July 27\96 in > Maria Egorov wrote:
       [==========================================================]        
       [ Very interesting point. could you be so kind to make an  ]
       [ explicit summary of your theory and provide us with      ]
       [ informations about the sources which sustain such a point]
       [ af view.Usualy names of Universities or sciantists will  ]
       [ do.(From Russia?).                                       ]
       [==========================================================]

This thickens to soup slop of your character -- an intellectual fraud.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >,
E.G.Engelbrecht > wrote:
|  (Istvan Szucs) wrote:
| >In article >,
| >E.G.Engelbrecht > wrote:
| >|  (David Gaudine) wrote:
|  
| >| >In war both parties can fight each other, i.e. bomb each other's military
| >| >bases and so on.  Terrorists hide among the civilian population, giving
| >| >no target for retaliation.
|  
| >| Does this make the resistance fighters of World War II
| >terrorists?
| 
| >As much as they attacked civilians and civilian targets, yes.
| 
| Sounds like our arguments are not so far apart.  You did not specify
| in your original post that terrorist targets had to be non-military.

I think it's more complicated than that. I don't know if I
can come up with an exact definition, but targetting
civilians in peacetime is definitely terrorism, and
attafcking military targets in war is not.

|  
| >SO they were attacking military targets..., during a war...
| 
| >That places thenm far apart from those attackng civilians in
| >peacetime.
| 
| What defines the existance of a war.  Japan clearly thought of itself in
| a state of war when it bombed Pearl Harbour although the US had yet to
| declare war.  


I do not consider Pearl Harbor terrorism. I've heard that
Pearl Harbor was considered a savage attack, but I have not
heard it labeled terorism.

During World War II most of the countries from which the
| resistance fought had surrendered to Germany and so effectively were not
| at war any more. 

In fact most they were in war on the German side. 

 The situation in Saudi Arabia is one where a group of
| paramilitaries have declared war on the US.  Though the US had not declared
| war on them they felt that they were in a state of war which justified for th
em
| their bombing of the US forces in Saudi Arabia.  So was this "terrorism" or
| not?

Hmmm.. This is pretty complicated... 
It's gonna sound pretty controversial, but I am not
absolutely sure that I would label that terrorism with teh
same certainty as I would label what happened in Atlanta, or
pn the PanAm flight above Lockerby - terrorism.
One thing to consider is that those who attacked in Saudi
Arabia are not "authorized" or in the position of declaring
war. There is a legal and legitimate government in Saudi
Arabia, and that there is no state of war in  Saudi Arabia,
civil or otherwise. 

Again, I don't calim that this is completely answering the
question, but I think that these are significant factors .

Istvan

Thanks for the suggestion - you must work for "Psychic Friends!"  I have 
begun the table, but need the statistics - can you help?

What did you think of the page?
Bryan
-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

soc.culture.ukrainian,soc.culture.russian,soc.culture.estonia,soc.culture.balti
cs,soc.culture.romania
n,soc.culture.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.liberta
rian,alt.politics.correct,alt.po
litics.reform,alt.politics.usa.constitution, alt.culture.purebred-sovoks,ukr.po
litics,soc.culture.europe, 
soc.culture.magyar,relcom.politics

In article >,  says...
>
>On Thu, 25 Jul 1996 21:21:50 +0100, Dmitry Gryaznov
> wrote:
>
>>><SNIP>

>Yep, still it doesn't prevent US communities from using
>languages-other-than-English in official matters.

Mr. Volodin, you are indeed a *greenhorn* in.....

<SNIP>

>
>Surely, it's not wrong. It just means that if you don't use this
>language as your firs one you are, you know, kind of unofficial in the
>country.
>

".>>you know, kind of unofficial in the country."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

.....without a hint of what you are speaking of....


>>What I cannot understand is why all this fuss about it? Is anything
>>threatening the usage of Russian language, Russians and Russian-speaking
>>people in Ukraine? Were they banned from using Russian? Did Russian
>>disappear from schools? Does new curriculum demand the school education
>>to be only in Ukrainian everywhere? No, AFAIK. It's only that from now
>>on all people of -Ukraine- are more likely to need to know -Ukrainian-!
>>What is wrong with that???
>
>The wrong is to make people change their ways, that what's wrong.

 
.....who must have tortured political prisoners to save the system in Russia...


> And
>not in things that are really vital for them, like, making money,

....and bled Russia and her people dry!


>living conditions etc. People have to change their "znakovaya sistema"
>(whatever is the appropriate English term) - that's not right. That's
>not what is essential, so don't try to mend what's not broken.

...and a Communist, it would appear!


>>     Dmitry O. Gryaznov       | Alton House, Office Park, Gatehouse Way,

>Dima
>P.S.
>It _is_ possible to live in the US without any knowledge of English.
>Just live among your people. Russian, Vietnamese, whatever. That's one
>of the things I really love in this country.

A greedy, selfish, unadaptable, vicious Communist, who hates Russians
AND an evil foreign devil!

alex :)

In article >, HipCat  > wrote:
>Perhaps some were were Jews, but since when does ones religion determine 
>thier nationalty?  George Olah is no Jew nor are they "ALL," but judging 
>from your other postings, I understand your comment.  It's OK to be 
>Jewish - really.  Don't be so defensive!

It's interesting how one's Jewishness matters when it comes to Nobel
prizes and other achievements in science and arts.  However, if one
mentions the Jewishness of negative figures, such as those in the
Communist Movement, then we are told (often by the same people) that
their Jewishness was coincidental and you are branded an anti-semite
to suggest otherwise.

Some people just want the cake and eat it, too.

Joe

In article >,
 > wrote:
>What I care about though is your disparaging remarks about me
>in the HUNGARY list where you know well I no longer participate to
>answer your comments and where most people probably have no clue what
>you were referring to.  I know you posted the same article in both
>places, but I only mentioned the possible ADL connection in s.c.m.
>So involving me in HUNGARY list was uncalled for.
No, I had no idea you no longer write to HUNGARY, but I'm not surprised to
hear you want to avoid fora that are archived. As for the double posting, I
did it only because it was the first time that any hard info came to light.
(By "hard" I mean something that comes not from NPA and does not have the
general McCarthy-like style of `in this briefcase I have a list of forty known
communist agents') Notice that you pass over in silence the most important 
part of this info, namely that Argonne flatly denies that NPA's resignation 
was forced (in fact the Human Resources manager ridiculed the suggestion) 
while NPA of course makes himself out a big victim whose resignation was 
forced.  

>Oh I see...  Because somebody speculated here that NPA might have
>already had "butter on his head", you give it more credence than what
>NPA said about the case.  Figures ...
In fact, the remarks of the HR manager at Argonne were also highly 
suggestive in that direction, but they also offered no proof, not even a 
direct statement to that effect.  

>Besides, why would an ADL lawyer do all those things you suggest? 
You think a smart lawyer would miss an elementary trick like that? 

>I only suggested that ADL might have nudged DOE to force the issue, which
>is not the same as saying that ADL would be party to a law suit between
>NPA and his ANL.
I can only hope you are right and the ADL is involved. In that case they must
be reading the net and must have seen the collection of NPA quotes that Ga1bor
Farkas just posted to HUNGARY. Jesus, but NPA is one sick puppy. 

>>satisfied myself that NPA has not been denied due process.
>
>Well, that settles it then, right Peter? ;-)
I should think so. At any rate on HUNGARY I already bid goodbye to the NPA
saga, and I see no reason to continue on s.c.m either, beyond the suggestion 
that readers check out the aforementioned collection, now conveniently 
available on both the HIX and the HUNGARY archives. I quit reading FORUM 
years ago, and had no idea of the depth and breadth of this guy's anti-
semitism. He is like the Energizer bunny, just goes on and on and on. Just 
keep on defending him Joe, you can have the last word!

Andra1s Kornai

In article > Ivan Marinov,
 writes:
>Eredeti magyar szekta.

Csak egy pletyka: ugy tudom, hogy a hitgyulisek fosakranya
a rabbikepzoben tanult..

Tamas

 wrote:

>Uniforms? Civilians? Come on.. War is terrorism where _both_ parties 
>openly declare their willingness to fight. That's all. 

Why is then that member of  U.S. House of Representatives have been
refusing to condemn the terrorist acts of the IRA.  Is it only
terrorism when it impacts directly on Uncle Sam?

Noel

ANDREW ROZSA > wrote:
>
>I am sorry to break the bad news to you, Joe, but there is no such a
>person as 'George.' There is, however, a cyborg with direct permanent
>uplinks to The Library of Congress, National Library of Medicine, The
>World Knowledge Database, and the Electronic Enccyclopedia of Movies &
>TV Shows. This cyborg seems to be using a German e-mail address, more
>often than not.

I know; I just use "George" as a handle for of that. ;-)

>We know that there are nuances of language usage (the working
>language) that a person reading a dictionary will never get.

Well, one could expect writers of these RFE/OMRI pieces to have a better
command of English than that.

Joe

Johanne L. Tournier  > wrote:

>Despite the fact that the infallible (;-)) Webster lists one of the meanings
>as *to take back*, which is undoubtedly the meaning of the Latin original
>(and thus the Romanian) from which the word is derived in English, using the
>word in that sense looks laughable, that's all there is to it. IMHO, the
>only persons who would actually use the word in that fashion would be
>not-native English speakers who happened to find the meaning in the dictionary
!

Thanks Johanne, that's _exactly_ how it struck me, too!

>(N.B. This is not in any sense meant as an aspersion on your or Joe's
>facility in English, which is excellent. Mr. Tinca's or Mr. Shafir's,
>however, may be another matter).

On the contrary, you proved my point, though in a roundabout way.

Thanks,
Joe

On July 6/96 in >
 (Maria Egorov) wrote:
     >I should remind you that the Nobel Prize Winners you 
     >prezented to us are all nonHungarians.(Look Britanica,
     >There are no Hungarin Nobel Prize Winners.) They were 
     >Germans ,Slavs or Jews. Check their names.Reread your 
     >history and be careful.

On July 27/96 in >
 (Maria Egorov) wrote:
     >Since ALL the Hungarian sciantists were JEWS and since 
     >I am a JEW myself, I think the appropriate way to
     >express this is: Hungarian JEWS WHO WON NOBEL PRIZES.
     >IN THIS WAY WE RESPECT EACH OTHER. NO CONFUSIONS ALLOWED. 

First we have you stating that the Nobel recipients were "all
nonHungarians" and pronouncing that the Britannica claims there are no
Hungarian Nobel recipients, yet three weeks later we have you stating the
"Hungarian Jews who won Nobel Prizes." So which way is it going to be
Maria. And please, no further confusion about the matter, and respect the
Hungarian people as you would expect them to respect you, and you will have
this ethnic Canadian begin to respect you.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >,
Ivan Marinov  > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs wrote:
|  
| >> If X is moral and Y is unmoral, then I cannot defend your right to do 
| >> Y.
| 
| > Here is where we disagree.
| 
| You disagree with me, because you think that moral is someting 
| subjective. Good and bad are objective and eternal concepts.
| 
It is sufficient for me to say that I don't judge you or
myself as infallible, especially in interperting good and
bad. THis is sufficient reason for me not to think that what
*I* consdier right or wrong to be objective.

Istvan

In article >,
Judith Toth > wrote:


Reszben egyertertek Toth Judit levelevel. Csak azon
csodalkozom, hogy egy magyar szelsoseges nacionalista
rossz neven veszi hogy amerikaban nacionalista modon
kozvetitik az olimpiat.

Istvan

Concentrate on the subject. Ignore the spelling.

Perhaps some were were Jews, but since when does ones religion determine 
thier nationalty?  George Olah is no Jew nor are they "ALL," but judging 
from your other postings, I understand your comment.  It's OK to be 
Jewish - really.  Don't be so defensive!

L'Chaim!
-- 
Visit my homepage!  http://mason.gmu.edu/~achassel/

In article >, HipCat  > wrote:
>Thanks for the suggestion - you must work for "Psychic Friends!"  I have 
>begun the table, but need the statistics - can you help?

OK, here is some help on the Hungarian Olympic medal counts:

Year  City               Golds  Silver  Bronze  Total  Ranking
====  =================  =====  ======  ======  =====  =======
1896  Athens                2       1       2      5      6
1900  Paris                 1       2       3      6     10
1904  St. Louis             2       1       1      4      5
1908  London                3       4       1      8      5
1912  Stockholm             3       2       3      8      9
1916  Berlin -- Not held due to WW I.
1920  Antwerp -- Participation prevented by victors of WW I.
1924  Paris                 2       3       4      9     12
1928  Amsterdam             4       5       0      9      9
1932  Los Angeles           6       4       5     15      6
1936  Berlin               10       1       5     16      3
1940  Not held due to WW II.
1944  Same.
1948  London               10       5      12     27      4
1952  Helsinki             16      10      16     42      3
1956  Melbourne             9      10       7     26      4 (Revolution time!)
1960  Rome                  6       8       7     21      7
1964  Tokio                10       7       5     22      5
1968  Mexico City          10      10      12     32      4
1972  Munich                6      13      16     35      8
1976  Montreal              4       5      13     22     10
1980  Moscow                7      10      15     32      6
1984  Los Angeles -- Not participating.
1988  Seoul                11       6       6     23      6

Don't have figures for these:

1992  Barcelona
1996  Atlanta

As you see, for a small country, Hungary's been doing extremely well in
sports.  Her medal count ranking was seldom above 10 and quite often in
the first 5.

Your Web page looks good, HipCat.  Congrats!

Joe Pannon

In article >,
    (Maria Egorov) wrote:
>"FINNO-UGRIC"  is a FANCY term to describe a people of MONGOLIC + TATAR  
>+ TURK descent.

Dear Maria,
	From scientific point of view you are completely wrong.
	
	Finno-Ugric languages (Finnic: Finnish, Estonian, Karelian, Veps, 
Ingrian, Votic, Livonian, Lapp, Merya, Menshcher, Murom, Mordvin, Mari, 
Udmurt and Komi;  Ugric: Hungarian, Khant and Mansi) are a part of the Uralic 
group of languages. 
	As known Uralic group of languages consists of Finno-Ugric languages 
and Samoyedic languages (Samoyedic: Nenets, Enets, Nganasan, Selkup, Kamas, 
Karagas, Koibal, Motor, Soyot and Taigi).

	On the other side, Mongolian language belongs to the Altaic group of 
languages, espesially to its Mongolic subgroup (Mongolic: Mongolian, Buryat, 
Daghur, Monguor, Santa, Kalmyk, Oyrat and Western Mongol).
	Turkish and Tatar languages belong also to the Altaic group, 
especially to its Turkic subgroup: (Turkic: Uzbek, Uighur, Turkish, 
Azerbaijani, Turkmen, Gagauz, Karaim, Kimyak, Karachay-Balkar, Tatar, 
Bashkir, Kazakh, Kara-Kalpak, Kirgiz and Nogay).
	Therefore, Hungarian from one side, and Turkish, Tatar and Mongolian 
from the other side belong to DIFFERENT language groups - correspondingly 
Uralic and Altaic.

	Of course, many linguists consider Uralic and Altaic groups as 
connected, together with Japanese and Korean languages - in the so-called 
Uralo-Altaic group. These nations have a connection between themselves, and 
probably in a very distant past they have spoken one and the same language. 
But this does not denote, that Hungarians are Mongols, or Japaneses, or 
Finns. Hungarians are just Hungarians, as Finns are just Finns. 
	The connection is the same as in the group of Indo-European 
languages. You cannot say that Germans are Indians, or Spaniards are Swedes, 
only because their languages belong to one and the same group.
	Maybe you (as far as I know you are a Russian Jew) can understand me 
if I use an example from the Semito-Hamitic group of languages. As known, 
Arabic, Hebrew, Berber, Hansa, etc. belong to the Semito-Hamitic group of 
languages. But you cannot say that Jews are Arabs, or that Jews are Berbers. 
I am sure, that you do not feel yourself Arab, or Berber.
							Plamen M.

In article >,
    (Maria Egorov) wrote:
>FINNO-UGRIC is a FANCY term  used to describe a people of MONGOLIC + 
>TATAR + TURK descent.

Dear Maria,
	From scientific point of view you are completely wrong.
	
	Finno-Ugric languages (Finnic: Finnish, Estonian, Karelian, Veps, 
Ingrian, Votic, Livonian, Lapp, Merya, Menshcher, Murom, Mordvin, Mari, 
Udmurt and Komi;  Ugric: Hungarian, Khant and Mansi) are a part of the Uralic 
group of languages. 
	As known Uralic group of languages consists of Finno-Ugric languages 
and Samoyedic languages (Samoyedic: Nenets, Enets, Nganasan, Selkup, Kamas, 
Karagas, Koibal, Motor, Soyot and Taigi).

	On the other side, Mongolian language belongs to the Altaic group of 
languages, espesially to its Mongolic subgroup (Mongolic: Mongolian, Buryat, 
Daghur, Monguor, Santa, Kalmyk, Oyrat and Western Mongol).
	Turkish and Tatar languages belong also to the Altaic group, 
especially to its Turkic subgroup: (Turkic: Uzbek, Uighur, Turkish, 
Azerbaijani, Turkmen, Gagauz, Karaim, Kimyak, Karachay-Balkar, Tatar, 
Bashkir, Kazakh, Kara-Kalpak, Kirgiz and Nogay).
	Therefore, Hungarian from one side, and Turkish, Tatar and Mongolian 
from the other side belong to DIFFERENT language groups - correspondingly 
Uralic and Altaic.

	Of course, many linguists consider Uralic and Altaic groups as 
connected, together with Japanese and Korean languages - in the so-called 
Uralo-Altaic group. These nations have a connection between themselves, and 
probably in a very distant past they have spoken one and the same language. 
But this does not denote, that Hungarians are Mongols, or Japaneses, or 
Finns. Hungarians are just Hungarians, as Finns are just Finns. 
	The connection is the same as in the group of Indo-European 
languages. You cannot say that Germans are Indians, or Spaniards are Swedes, 
only because their languages belong to one and the same group.
	Maybe you (as far as I know you are a Russian Jew) can understand me 
if I use an example from the Semito-Hamitic group of languages. As known, 
Arabic, Hebrew, Berber, Hansa, etc. belong to the Semito-Hamitic group of 
languages. But you cannot say that Jews are Arabs, or that Jews are Berbers. 
I am sure, that you do not feel yourself Arab, or Berber.
							Plamen M.

On July 23/96 > (Maria Egorov) claimed:
    [----------------------------------------------------------------]
    [ I know lots of Hungarians in United States and other foreign   ]
    [ lands who are presenting the Romanians as Gipses.Advancing the ]
    [ idea that ROM=ROMANIAN=GYPSY.                                  ]
    [----------------------------------------------------------------]

Subject: MARIA EGOROV IS A RACIST LIAR
On July 27/96 in > Wally Keeler wrote:
|So you know LOTS OF HUNGARIANS. Then prove it, liar. List the names of
|just a few and provide citations to prove that "lots of Hungarians" are
|advancing the idea that Romanians are Gypsies. Prove it. Or are you just
|a RACIST LIAR? Prove your statement, Egorova.

Subject: MARIA EGOROV IS NOT A LIAR
On July 28/96 in >Maria Egorov wrote:
|I did not write the article. My husband, Albert did. He is NOT around to 
|give you a response but I assure you that HE IS NOT A LIAR.

Then get Albert on-line because I am calling him on his lie.
   "So you know LOTS OF HUNGARIANS. Then prove it, liar. List the names
   of just a few and provide citations to prove that 'lots of Hungarians'
   are advancing the idea that Romanians are Gypsies. Prove it. Or are
   you just a RACIST LIAR? Prove your statement, Egorov."
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

On July 28/96 in >
 (Maria Egorov) wrote:
|And all I want you to do is to give a proper identification to those 
|Hungarian scientists. Instead of using "Hungarian scientists", use 
|Hungarian Jews. This approach is more realistic. We do not want to ignore
|the Jews. DO EW?

Not only are you lying to me and everyone in soc.culture.magyar, you are
also lying to yourself. It was not all you wanted to do; "to give proper
identification to those Hungarian scientists." You wanted to deny the
Hungarianness altogether. They were "nonHungarians" according to your
lexicon. They were Germans, Slavs or Jews -- anything but Hungarian. Here
is your quote (read it & understand):
    [===========================================================]
    [  On July 6/96 in >   ]
    [   (Maria Egorov) declared:             ]
    [  |...the Nobel Prize Winners you prezented to us are all  ]
    [  |nonHungarians.(Look Britanica,There are no Hungarin     ]
    [  |Nobel Prize Winners.) They were Germans ,Slavs or Jews. ]
    [===========================================================]
You now claim that "all I want you to do is to give a proper identification
to those Hungarian scientists." But notice my reply to your outrageous
assertion that the scientists were "nonHungarian." I was not denying any
Jewishness, claiming that these scientists were nonJews. I was challenging
your claim of nonHungarianness, which you now say, several weeks later, is
"realistic." 
  [==================================================================]
  [  On July 8/96 in >              ]
  [   (Wally Keeler) wrote:                         ]
  [  |Being born in Hungary's capital city confers no Hungarianness  ]
  [  |upon a person? Growing up within Hungary, within the Hungarian ]
  [  |language, within the Hungarian culture, within the Hungarian   ]
  [  |educational system confers no Hungarianness upon a person? In  ]
  [  |spite of this Wigner and Olah cannot be regarded as Hungarians ]
  [  |or should be regarded as "nonHungarians" as you put it? Please ]
  [  |explain Maria Egorov. Please do.                               ]
  [==================================================================]
I'm sure that soc.culture.magyar, as well as myself, are still interested
in your explanation as to WHY you claimed the scientists were
"nonHungarians." I asked you the following:
      "Can you cite any publication in which Wigner or Olah had 
      ever denied their Hungarianness? Is there any proof ANYWHERE
      that Wigner or Olah covered-up their Hungarianness?"

I accept that you now admit to being unable to support your initial
malicious claim that the abovementioned scientists were "nonHungarian."

Nevertheless, in the beginning you were not prepared to claim, as you now
do, that "all I want you to do is to give a proper identification to those
Hungarian scientists". Instead, you went on to make more spiteful and
ludicrous statements that you refuse to reply to.

For instance there is this:
  [================================================================]
  [ On July 7/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:         ]
  [ |The Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced labor camps   ]
  [ |and GAS CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity which was concluded    ]
  [ |proudly by the Hungarians, without German supervision).       ]
  [================================================================]
You claim that the forced evacuation of Hungarian Jews was "concluded
proudly by the Hungarians." Can you provide documentation that proves that
the VAST MAJORITY of the population of Hungary was PROUD to evacuate
Hungarian Jews to death camps?

You asserted, "Instead of using 'Hungarian scientists', use Hungarian Jews.
This approach is more realistic." I assume here that you are striving for
completness of thought, the application of fine detail and proper nuance to
a contention. Well this is precisely what I was trying to get at with you
when you made the very thoughtless and malicious statement above. I asked
you: "Would you agree that the following would be a far more accurate way
of stating your contention:
   [================================================================]
   [ |Many Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced labor camps  ]
   [ |and GAS CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity which was concluded    ]
   [ |proudly by a few Hungarians, with Nazi supervision).          ]
   [================================================================]
In addition, you very grossly wrong to state that there was no nazi
supervison. There was, lots of it, and it was led by none other than the
famous Adolf Eichmann. (You can read about him in the Britannica). He was
executed by Israel for his supervison of the Hungarian Jewish genocide.

Your tirade went on with more ludicrous and unsupportable statements. For
instance there was this:
   [============================================================]
   [ On July 9/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:     ]
   [ |do you think Albert Einstein after arriving in United     ]
   [ |States, started to yell "I am a German"?.NOT AT ALL.      ]
   [============================================================]
Being a much more reasonable and logical person than you, I replied with
thus and asked for a response:
[====================================================================]
[ On July 11/96 in >               ]
[  (Wally Keeler) replied:                          ]
[ |I don't think he was yelling any message. I'm a fifth generation  ]
[ |Canadian and I've never yelled - "I am a Canadian." NOT AT ALL.   ]
[ |Do you yell out your nationality or ethnicity. The salient point  ]
[ |is that Albert never <denied> his roots.                          ]
[====================================================================]
I asked:
             Do you have any proof whatsoever that Albert 
             Einstein had ever denied his Germanness?

But of course, no such proof exists, never did exist, except in your mind.
You simply lost control of yourself and started to post wild statements
which you knew to be false and unsound.

But now you are claiming that "all I want you to do is to give a proper
identification to those Hungarian scientists. Instead of using 'Hungarian
scientists', use Hungarian Jews. This approach is more realistic." The
clear perception of your postings was that you were slandering the
Hungarian people, especially the non-Jew Hungarian people, (BTW, Jewish
Hungarians are just as much Hungarian as Christian.) You ended up making a
statement that had no foundation in reality. The evidence I provided
exposed the audacious stupidity of your statements.

You wrote:
   [============================================================]
   [ |The Hungarians sent over 300,000 Jews to forced labor     ]
   [ |camps and GAS CHAMBERS during WW2. (activity which was    ]
   [ |concluded proudly by the Hungarians, without German       ]
   [ |supervision). Knowing these facts, do you think it is     ]
   [ |easy for the Jews born in Hungary, survivors of the       ]
   [ |holocaust, (who are living abroad for obvious reasons) to ]
   [ |identify themselves as Hungarians? NOT AT ALL.            ]
   [============================================================]
I intervened
  [===================================================================]
  [ On July 8/96 in >                ]
  [  (Wally Keeler) wrote:                           ]
  [ |Wrong. The great Hungarian poet, George Faludy, visited my home  ]
  [ |several times. He's a Jew. He suffered at the hands of the Nazis.]
  [ |He also suffered at the hands of the Communists. He is proud of  ]
  [ |his Hungarian identity, his Hungarian language, his Hungarian    ]
  [ |culture. In spite of 20 fruitful and peaceful years in Toronto,  ]
  [ |Canada, his Hungarianness compelled him to return to his beloved ]
  [ |Hungary to end his days in his homeland.                         ]
  [ |                                                                 ]
  [ |A good friend of Faludy's, George Egri, also a Hungarian Jew,    ]
  [ |who lived in Toronto for decades, returned to Hungary after the  ]
  [ |Communists ate dirt. He was a journalist and columnist in        ]
  [ |Toronto. I had many visits with him at his home and mine. When I ]
  [ |met up with him in Budapest, he waxed poetic about being "home,  ]
  [ |I am home again." George Egri also suffered the same situation   ]
  [ | as George Faludy.                                               ]
  [ |                                                                 ]
  [ |Another good friend of George Faludy and George Egri, who is     ]
  [ |also a Hungarian Jew, and who shared their experience in Hungary ]
  [ |-- also had been imprisoned together in the infamous Rajk        ]
  [ |concentration camp, although not returning to Hungary (because   ]
  [ |he has a good life in Canada)does not forsake his Hungarianness. ]
  [ |His name is George Gabori. His experiences can be read in his    ]
  [ |book, WHEN EVILS WERE MOST FREE.                                 ]
  [===================================================================]
And then...
   [============================================================]
   [ On July 9/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:     ]
   [ |do you think Albert Einstein after arriving in United     ]
   [ |States, started to yell "I am a German"?.NOT AT ALL. Do   ]
   [ |you really think that the Jews from Hungary (those who    ]
   [ |escaped the death camps)came to United States and proudly ]
   [ |said:"I am a Hungarian" or "long live Hungary"? Do you    ]
   [ |really think that these same Jews(only older)would change ]
   [ |their minds just because you changed the government?. Or  ]
   [ |Any gesture of public relation(like inviting Jews to your ]
   [ |home,etc.)will attenuate the pain,but they will definitely]
   [ |not become the Hungarians, Austrians or Germans you wish  ]
   [ |them to be(PERIOD) In the past Hungary, Germany & Austria ]
   [ |called the Slavs,Jews&Gipsies: "RATS"&"SUBHUMAN" This     ]
   [ |mentality still persists in Hungary and it is hidden as   ]
   [ |it is in Germany and Austria of today. In these           ]
   [ |circumstances I know that there are no Jews who would     ]
   [ |proudly say:I am a Hungarian.                             ]
   [============================================================]
So I replied:
  [====================================================================]
  [ On July 11/96 in >               ]
  [  (Wally Keeler) wrote:                            ]
  [ |If you read George Faludy's autobiographical book, My Happy Days  ]
  [ |In Hell, you'd find that he had no problem with being a Hungarian ]
  [ |and Jew. He made absolutely no effort to hide nor to even play    ]
  [ |down the fact. He was neither ashamed of being Hungarian nor      ]
  [ |Jewish. He certainly didn't BECOME AMERICAN. Although he moved to ]
  [ |Toronto for a couple decades, and appreciated it more than any    ]
  [ |other place, he remained a proud Hungarian and Jew, even with     ]
  [ |Canadian citizenship. I knew other Hungarians and Jews and they   ]
  [ |never expressed the kind of crap you think they do.               ]
  [====================================================================]
I then added the following:
     I overlooked mentioning a friend and ally of the Peoples Republic
     of Poetry, and publisher of many books of poetry and prose, Robert
     Zend, who was also a Hungarian Jew. He was always proud of both
     characteristics and he had never denied those characteristics. At
     poetry readings he was introduced as a Hungarian. The same went
     for George Faludy when I attended his poetry readings. These are
     public affairs. 

     I can mentioned 2nd rate poet and first rate columnist, George 
     Jonas, who is also a Hungarian Jew. (he had once been married to
     "right-wing" columnist, Barbara Amiel, who is now married to
     Canadian and international media mogul, Conrad Black.) In his 
     [Jonas] published works and activities,he had no hesitation in
     declaring his Hungarianness. 

     In spite of the fact that I presented several very public 
     Hungarian Jews who never denied, indeed proclaimed, their
     Hungarianness, you declared:
          [=======================================================]
          [ |I know that there are no Jews who would proudly say: ]
          [ |I am a Hungarian.                                    ]
          [=======================================================]
Question: Can you name any Hungarian Jew who publicly disavowed his
          Hungarianness? Support your claim.

Of course, in the face of such evidence as I presented, you were at a loss
to support your claim. Now you know that there are many Jews who are proud
of their Hungarianness. And in spite of your newly found footing on Earth,
claiming that "all I want you to do is to give a proper identification to
those Hungarian scientists. Instead of using 'Hungarian scientists', use
Hungarian Jews" -- all of the above mentioned cultural individuals referred
to themselves as Hungarians, for example:

Faludy is a Hungarian poet, not a Hungarian Jewish poet.
Egri is a Hungarian author, not a Hungarian Jewish author.
The same for the others. They never attempted to hide their Jewishness.
They were not so ethnocentric as you are. They quietly asserted their
Jewishness, just as they quietly asserted their Hungarianness. Because
above and beyond these ethnocentricities, they asserted their common
humanity, something that you are in dire need of guidance. 

And finally there is this silly statement by you:
   [============================================================]
   [ On July 9/96  (Maria Egorov) wrote:     ]
   [ |Any gesture of public relation(like inviting Jews to your ]
   [ |home,etc.)will attenuate the pain,but they will definitely]
   [ |not become the Hungarians, Austrians or Germans you wish  ]
   [ |them to be(PERIOD)                                        ]
   [============================================================]
And I asked you:
     Please explain why you know that George Faludy or George Egri 
     feel angst ("attentuate the pain") whenever they visited my
     home or when I visited them? Support your claim.

You made many ludicrous, spiteful and malicious statements recently Maria.
Your statments will not go away. Unless you answer them with proper
humility, they will haunt you for as long as you haunt the soc.culture.*
heirarchies. 

You statement that "all I want you to do is to give a proper identification
to those Hungarian scientists. Instead of using 'Hungarian scientists', use
Hungarian Jews" is an outright lie. What you wanted was racial revenge
against the Hungarian people, to belittle them, to condemn them. I am not
Hungarian in any manner, so there is no ethnic interest on my part to
defend their nation against slanderers like you. I am as appalled by anti-
semites who slander the Jewish people as I am by people who slander any
nation be it you slandering Hungarians or Gabor Barsai slandering
Canadians. Such people are cut from the same cloth. You need to do some
serious reflection Maria.
-- 
Wally Keeler					Poetry
Creative Intelligence Agency			is
Peoples Republic of Poetry			Poetency

In article >, 
k (Noel Cosgrave) writes:
 wrote:

>>Uniforms? Civilians? Come on.. War is terrorism where _both_ parties 
>>openly declare their willingness to fight. That's all. 

>Why is then that member of  U.S. House of Representatives have been
>refusing to condemn the terrorist acts of the IRA.  Is it only
>terrorism when it impacts directly on Uncle Sam?

Sorry, I should have included the "I do not speak for my employer"
disclaimer :>>

Dear Group,

Atlanta's Homepage contains lots of information about
the olympics. You can go directly to the olympics
portion by opening the following site:

"http://www.atlanta.olympic.org/" (without quotes)

They have even had some nice articles about Hungary.
One about Egerszegi Krisztina just the other day, and
right now there is a nice "flashback" article to
the Hungarian water polo team's victory over the USSR
in 1956. If you have time, you can actually search 
for all the medal winners since 1896. It's gratifying
to see Hungary and Hungarians all over the place . . . 

"Hajra' magyarok!"

Steven C. Scheer

In article >,
 > wrote:
| In article >, HipCat  > wrot
e:
| >Perhaps some were were Jews, but since when does ones religion determine 
| >thier nationalty?  George Olah is no Jew nor are they "ALL," but judging 
| >from your other postings, I understand your comment.  It's OK to be 
| >Jewish - really.  Don't be so defensive!
| 
| It's interesting how one's Jewishness matters when it comes to Nobel
| prizes and other achievements in science and arts.  However, if one
| mentions the Jewishness of negative figures, such as those in the
| Communist Movement, then we are told (often by the same people) that
| their Jewishness was coincidental and you are branded an anti-semite
| to suggest otherwise.
| 
| Some people just want the cake and eat it, too.


The two seem to be closely related... What interests me is
that this is what you notice and criticize (and I agree that
this  is valid criticism) - but not the other, ti/ when
people bring up consistanly negative examples.

Istvan

Latom Kornai itt is lehozta irasat amit mar a Hungaryn kierolkodott
magabol. Jo cikk. Nekem is tetszett. Csak a   lenyeget az  a  papir 
barna csikkal a kozepen letarta. :-)

NPA.

Istvan Szucs > wrote:
>this  is valid criticism)

Now if you just stopped at this, "bolcs maradtal volna."

> - but not the other, ti/ when
>people bring up consistanly negative examples.

You are totally wrong about me not mentioning positiv examples.  This
may have been before you started reading FORUM, but I was the one who
published a series of FORUM articles about the great Hungarian
Jews and their contributions, based on Dr. Laszlo Tauber's "Those
Amazing Hungarian Jews" article.  Dr. Tauber is a survivor of the
Holocaust who left Hungary for Sweden in '46 to study under prof.
Olivecrona in Stockholm.  Later settled in the US and unless he retired
already, he is the Chairman of the dept. of Surgery and Medical Director
of Jefferson Hospital in Alexandria, Va., as well as Clinical Professor
of Surgery at Georgetown U. Medical School in Washington, DC. (Source:
Stephen Sisa's "The Spirit of Hungary")

Joe Pannon

In article >,
Maria Egorov > wrote:
>Could you give me a reason to do so?.
>
Yes.

T. Kocsis wrote:

> Csak egy pletyka: ugy tudom, hogy a hitgyulisek fosakranya
> a rabbikepzoben tanult..

Nem, a katolikus akademian.
-- 

Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
PGP Key Fingerprint = 9D 85 B7 63 7D 85 14 C1  4C 36 CB 5E 92 70 FE E3
---

In article >,
Balazs Boros > wrote:
>On 26 Jul 1996 07:14:48 GMT,  () wrote:
>
>>Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:
>>>
>>>Recuperating would be great! However Erdely is in such a bad shape, that if 
the
>>>Rumanian government really wanted to screw Hungary up, they would just hand 
it 
>>>back on a silver plate.
>>
>>Pathetic!  I don't think you have a clue what point I was trying to make.
>>How about checking your dictionary and see what "recuparate" means.
>
>I prefectly sympathise with George... Joe, just because you don't know
>Erdely means Transylvania in Hungarian doesn't mean you have to flame
>him.
>
>Btw, Hungary would be fucked if Erdely would be given back to it, the
>politicans wouldn't know what to do and it would just spawn more
>pathetically stupid TV programs like 'Kedd 21'. Anyway, is that still
>going? It started when I was in Budapest in January and I predict it
>finished at the same time :)
>
>Balazs

Thanks Balazs, but that's not it! Joe did not catch that only the first 
senetnce and the first half of the second was refering to his post. He took the
meaning of 'recuperate' as 'bring back in health', and I agreed that she really
needs some good recuperation because it is is such a bad shape ....... etc.
So thanks again, but you misunderstood Joe.
GK

In article >,
Maria Egorov > wrote:
>"FINNO-UGRIC"  is a FANCY term to describe a people of MONGOLIC + TATAR
>+ TURK descent.

Maria Egorov is just a FANCY term to describe ........ (put anything here).

Andras Kornai > wrote:

>No, I had no idea you no longer write to HUNGARY, but I'm not surprised to
>hear you want to avoid fora that are archived.

Really now?  I thought most regular HUNGARY posters were quite aware of
my stopping posting there due to Hugh's introducing a semi-censorship
there a while back.  It's a principle with me not to post to political
Internet forums if they are censored in any way.  Moderation is just a
euphamism for censorship, IMHO.  I only see it justified in
non-political (professional, etc.) forums and lists.

> As for the double posting, I
>did it only because it was the first time that any hard info came to light.
>(By "hard" I mean something that comes not from NPA and does not have the
>general McCarthy-like style of `in this briefcase I have a list of forty known
>communist agents')

But since my word about the existence of such hard proof didn't cut it
for you anyway, your mentioning it in HUNGARY could only be construed as
a backstab at me where I cannot answer you.

> Notice that you pass over in silence the most important 
>part of this info, namely that Argonne flatly denies that NPA's resignation 
>was forced (in fact the Human Resources manager ridiculed the suggestion) 
>while NPA of course makes himself out a big victim whose resignation was 
>forced.  

Are you really that naive to expect Argone's admission that they forced
NPA's resignation?  From the evidence presented to me, it was clear that
they strongly suggested it to protect his unemployment benefits at least.
In office politics things like this happen all the time.  Just like with
me about a year ago, when people around me were layed off left and
right.  My first level supervisor, with whom I was not in the best of
terms, saw this as a great opportunity to get rid off me.  He, too,
suggested I take advantage of the one-time special early retirement deal
my employer offered.  Otherwise, he hinted, I might be layed off under
much worse conditions.  Now, the funny part of the early retirement deal
was a weawer I would have to sign to forgo any future litigation against
the company.  Well, I saw through my supervisor's tactics and stick to
my guns; I was going to take my chances with layoffs because I knew that
with my seniority and generally good record, he would have had to
obtain approval of higher management to lay me off.  There he would
have had some explaining to do, and I didn't think he wanted to face
that.  That's why he was trying to "encourage" me to take the early
retirement.  My perseverence payed off and instead of me being gone, he
is.  So this is why I very well understand how those "encouragements"
work at large companies.  They are more meant to make the management's
job easy than the employer's.
>
>In fact, the remarks of the HR manager at Argonne were also highly 
>suggestive in that direction, but they also offered no proof, not even a 
>direct statement to that effect.  

I think thos reremarks were typical of HR people: noncommittal.
Remember the No. 1 rule in office politics: Cover your ass!

>I can only hope you are right and the ADL is involved. In that case they must
>be reading the net and must have seen the collection of NPA quotes that Ga1bor
>Farkas just posted to HUNGARY. Jesus, but NPA is one sick puppy. 

They don't have to be reading the Internet.  They only need to get a
copy of letters that went to DOE.  Or if the letter to DOE found somebody 
high in the DOE hierarchy with a Jewish sounding name, that itself would be 
enough to speed the process that was evident in NPA's case.

>I should think so. At any rate on HUNGARY I already bid goodbye to the NPA
>saga, and I see no reason to continue on s.c.m either, beyond the suggestion 
>that readers check out the aforementioned collection, now conveniently 
>available on both the HIX and the HUNGARY archives.

It was high time to quit that saga after your (and others') futile
attempt to throw in some red herring hints.

> I quit reading FORUM 
>years ago, 

Or more accurately you were benned by Hollosi himself after your
despicable attempt to drag in PA's unrelated professional correspondence
to "prove" your point. 

> and had no idea of the depth and breadth of this guy's anti-
>semitism.  He is like the Energizer bunny, just goes on and on and on. Just 
>keep on defending him Joe, you can have the last word!

To my recollection NPA seldom if ever initiated those threads.  He only
responded to something he found inaccurate or misleading.  Besides,
nobody appointed you to be the central authority to determine who is an
anti-semite and what constitutes anti-semitism.  So yours is just one
opinion as is mine.  And in my opinion he is not an anti-semite.  Maybe a
bit obsessed by the topic, but not an anti-semite. But then, you branded
me an anti-semite, too, so the label coming from you doesn't mean much, 
anyway.

As to defending him, well ... maybe I just take that often cited phrase
by the liberals more seriously than you: "I may disagree with you, but
would fight for your right to state your opinion."  Or something to that
effect.

I think if such honorable people in FORUM, as Drs. Szegedy and Rubin
condemned the denunciation of NPA to his employers, while you and your
cohorts are defending the action, you are in real minority with your
opinion.  Your methods resemble the methods of defense attorneys in rape
trials where through sophistry they are trying to blame the victim for 
the crime.  Shame on you! 

Joe

In article >,
Maria Egorov > wrote:
>When we tolk about the Slavic tribe of VENETI, we do not want to CONFUSE
>it with the Italian VENETI ( VENITIANS).
>DO WE?.

Tolk ez mach ez ju vant dier Maria,  :-)

just don't write it down, because your spelling is allergenic.

In article >,
Maria Egorov > wrote:
>Concentrate on the subject.

You surely didn't.

> Ignore the spelling.

You surely did.

In article >,
 > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| >this  is valid criticism)
| 
| Now if you just stopped at this, "bolcs maradtal volna."
| 
| > - but not the other, ti/ when
| >people bring up consistanly negative examples.
| 
| You are totally wrong about me not mentioning positiv
examples. 

This is not what I said. I said you don't criticize those
who only and selectively mention negative examples. 

 This
| may have been before you started reading FORUM, but I was the one who
| published a series of FORUM articles about the great Hungarian
| Jews and their contributions, [...]

Istvan

In article >,
Gyorgy Kovacs > wrote:
meaning of 'recuperate' as 'bring back in health', and I agreed that she really
 
                                                                     ^^^
needs some good recuperation because it is is such a bad shape ....... etc.
                                     ^^    ^^\in
                                       \
                                        I admit being guilty of inconsistency.
                                         That 'it' should be 'she'. SORRY!

>So thanks again, but you misunderstood Joe.
>GK
OK, I know, I should not bug other people for sloppy English and be guilty in 
it myself.
But I can't help it :-) It's always easier to criticise someone else.
GK

ARE HUNGARIANS MONGOLS? (Revised Version)Version 3


The Hungarians does not look any more Mongoloids for the same reasons the 
Turks in Istanbul
look European.

It is also true that the Hungarians of today look European.But their 
roots are Mongolic.

From Britannica :(Languages of the world)

"Racially the Uralic people present an unhomogeneous picture.In general 
they may be considered
a bland of Europeans and Mongoloid types,with the more western 
groups(especially the Hungarians,Baltic-Finnic and Erzya Mardvin groups) 
being strongly European and those of the Urals primarily Mongoloid".

From " De Administrado Imperio"by Constantine Porphyrogenitus (Byzantine 
Emperor,950AD)

"These eight clans of the TURKS(Hungarians)do not obey their own 
particular princes...,They 
have for their first chief the prince who comes by succession of Arpad's 
family..."
 

From The Hungarian Chronicle(1095AD):

"We (Hungarians) are descendants of the great Huns of Attila".

From "The Mongols" By Jeremiah Curtin

"Five groups of Mongols have made themselves famous in Europe:The Huns 
with their mighty chief Attila,the Magyars,The Turks or Osmanli,the 
Mongol invaders of Russia..."


From "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" By Edward Gibbon.

"The(Hungarians) are distinguished by the Greeks under the proper and 
peculiar name of Turks,
as descendants of that people who had conquered and reigned form China to 
the Volga (referring to the Mongols)".

From "The Cambridge Medieval History" edited by J.H.Hussey.

"The form ovyypoi,from which are derived the various names current to 
this day among the people of Europe(Old Church Slavonic,UGRI; Russian,
VENGRI;German,UNGARN;English,HUNGARIANS;French,HONGROIS;Italian,UNGHERESI,
and so on)comes from the Turkic ethnic name ONOGUR meaning TEN OGUR"

From "The Thirteenth Tribe" by Arthur Koestler.

"We also hear of a fearful encounter which St.Cyril,the Apostle of the 
Slav,had with a Magyar horde in 860,on his way to Khazaria.He was saying 
his prayers when they rushed at him luporum more ululantes-HOWLING IN THE 
MANNER OF WOLVES".

From "Britannica"(Languages of the world).

"Recent study indicates that it is posible to speak of a Uralic racial 
type,an intermediate stage between the European and the Mongoloid,the 
basic features of which are medium-dark to dark hair and eye colour,
relatively small stature and often a concave bridge of the nose".
(Hungary is part of Uralic racial type).

From "Britanica" Hungarian.


"The proto-Hungarians were apparently an ethnic blend of Ugric(Mongoloid) 
and Turkish peoples living in western Siberia...The Hungarians were the 
scourge of Europe,raiding as far afield as Bremen,Orleans and 
Constantinople(the English word OGRE-a men eating man,hideous cruel man,
is a corruption of HUNGAR,attests to their notoriety).


From "1000 years of Hungary" By Emil Lengyel.


"(Hungarian) Folklore speaks about NIMROD the giant,who had two sons,
HUNOR and HAGAR.The former was the ancestor of the HUNS,and MAGOR was the 
ancestor of the MAGYARS."

"The experience the Magyars left with the Western world was so traumatic 
that even generations later people form the West saw the Hungarians as 
apocalyptic monsters. Bishop Otto of Freysing spoke of the exterior of 
the Hungarians as ‘ferocious' at the time of the Crusades :(Their eyes 
are sunken,their stature is short,their behavior wild,their language 
barbarous,so that one can either accuse fate or marvel at divine patience 
for having permitted these monsters the possession of an enchanting 
land)".


From "History of Hungary" By Denis Sinor


"Though, geographically speaking, of European origin, the Hungarians who 
settled in the Danube valley were,spiritually and materially, Asiatics, 
and belonged to the great Central Euroasiatic cultural family whose 
members lived dispersed form the Danube to China, from Persia and India 
to the Arctic. The Hungarian bows and arrows...were of exactly the same 
type as those used in Central Asia. As nomadic peoples generally do, the 
Hungarians disliked towns,and even houses,to which they preferred tents. 
According to Otto von Freisingen, as late as the middle of the twelfth 
century, summer and autumn were still spent under tents".

"It is, however quite certain that the Mongoloid type was well 
represented among them(Hungarians), and that they were, on the whole, of 
rather short stature, with short legs, bowed through continuous riding".


There are many more credible sources like these.

In article >,
Maria Egorov > wrote:
>And all I want you to do is to give a proper identification to those
>Hungarian scientists.

You just did. They are Hungarian scientists.

> Instead of using "Hungarian scientists", use Hungarian Jews.
>This approach is more realistic. We do not want to ignore the Jews. DO EW?

We want to ignore religion when talking about nationality. Do you hear or read 
anywhere when an athlete wins a competion that he/she is an Italian Catholic,
or an Iraqui Moslim, or an Indian Hindu, or an Israeli Jew? Or any catholic,
moslim, protestant, hindu, jew, etc, etc, etc ......
NO YOU DON'T!

 (Gabor Barsai) wrote:

>>Most Christians are
>>strongly pro-life, as abortion cannot be reconcilied with the basic
>>Christian principles.

>I guess that depends on how you define basic Christian principles.

It's not my definition, it's Jesus' definition.

-- 

Ivan Marinov - Maximilian Valenski
---



---
"The Western world has lost its civil courage, both as a whole, 
and separately, in each country, each government, each 
political party, and of course in the UN. I have spent all my 
life under a Communist regime, and I will tell you that a society 
without any objective scale is a terrible one indeed. But a 
society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy
of man either." (A. I. Solzhenitsyn)
---
PGP Key Fingerprint = 9D 85 B7 63 7D 85 14 C1  4C 36 CB 5E 92 70 FE E3
---