Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1996/02/14
Version: 1.41
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days

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     Hungarian electronic resources FAQ

               TABLE OF CONTENTS

1.      News and discussion groups in English
1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute
1.2  News from Central Europe Today
1.3  The Hungary Report
1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)
1.5  MOZAIK
1.6  On USENET
1.7  'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 
1.8  , the Hungarian-American list

2.      News and discussion groups in Hungarian
2.1  HIX (many groups and services)
2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle [press review]
2.3  "Nemzet" Magyar Internet Vilaglap [Hungarian Internet World Bulletin]
2.4  Other discussion groups

3.      Interactive services
3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web
3.2  Gopher and other interactive services
3.3  ARENA

4.      The Net in Hungary
4.1  BITNET/HUEARN
4.2  HUNGARNET
4.3  FidoNet
4.4  Finding out somebody's email address

5.      Odds and ends
5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary
5.2  Conventions for coding Hungarian accents
5.3  Information sources about the rest of Central and Eastern Europe

6.      Contributors to this FAQ

7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

- - - ----------------------------------------------------------------------

 I know this is very long, perhaps too long for human consumption ;-).
One of the tasks for further editing is to make it more concise,
perhaps drop some parts altogether (I'd like to hear any suggestions).
You can search for the section titles listed above and skip what you
don't want, and many Unix newsreaders would jump ahead to the next one
with Ctrl-G (the format now follows the digest specification)!

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN ENGLISH

 Note: commercial networks -- such as CompuServe or AOL -- may have
their own in-house forums relating to Eastern and Central Europe. Be
aware that those are only open to the subscribers of the particular
service, unlike the discussion groups accessible by anyone via the
Internet and Usenet! This file -- the hungarian-faq -- is mostly
concerned with resources freely available netwide.
 See also the sections under 2. below which list services that carry
occasional English material, some regularly, besides their primarily
Hungarian language content.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.1  News from the Open Media Research Institute

 The Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest is available via
electronic mail, at no charge. The Digest covers all of the former
Soviet Union, East-Central and Southeastern Europe and is delivered in
two parts, each roughly 15 kByte in size, Monday through Friday (except
Czech holidays).

 You can subscribe by sending <mailto:>.
In the body of the message, type
 "SUBSCRIBE OMRI-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname" (leave out the quotation
marks and be sure to substitute your own name where shown).

 You can get reposts of just the items related to Hungary by
subscribing to Mozaik. See section 1.5.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.2  News from Central Europe Today

 Central Europe Today On-Line is a free daily news service covering the
important events and business news in the region. To subscribe, send
the word SUBSCRIBE <mailto:>. For more
detailed information, send a blank email message
<mailto:>.

Again, these exceed Hungary in scope, but you can get excerpts
pertaining to Hungary in Mozaik (see 1.4).

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.3  The Hungary Report

 The Hungary Report is a free weekly English-language online update of
news and analysis direct from Budapest each Sunday. The Report consists
of briefs, one feature story and an expert political opinion column.
The briefs cover the most important and interesting developments in
Hungary each week, while the feature stories address variously
politics, business, economics, arts and leisure. The weekly political
column, Parliament Watch, is written by Tibor Vidos, director of the
Budapest office of GJW, a British political lobbying and consulting
firm. To subscribe, send
<mailto:> containing (in the body
of the message, not in the headers) the single word "subscribe" (no
quotes).  Or send the word "info" to the same address for further
information.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.4  Hungary Online List (HOL)

 This discussion list is a "kind of Internet supplement" to the column
of the same title in Budapest Business Journal; to subscribe, send the
word "subscribe" <mailto:> (you'll get help
from its Majordomo server, if needed).

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.5  MOZAIK

 This is actually one of the services of HIX, meaning there's a slight
bit of Hungarian mixed in (the posts themselves are mostly in English,
but the server speaks Hunglish ;-)). MOZAIK brings you original content
(e.g. the schedule of DUNA TV, exchange rates), and digested reposts
of those news items (originating from OMRI, CET and other sources)
that bear directly on Hungary. You can subscribe by
sending a blank email message to <mailto:> and
unsubscribe by sending one to <mailto:>. See
section 3 about searching the HIX archives.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.6  On USENET

 The Hungarian newsgroup in the worldwide hierarchy is
<news:soc.culture.magyar>. It's mostly in English, sometimes
bilingual, and occasionally Hungarian only. The group is archived by
HIX (see its section for 'SCM') and is also readable under
<http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/>;. A similar archive is to be found at
<http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/>; (see 1.8 below). For www/e-mail
gateways see <http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzetiforum.html>; or the
archives mentioned above.

 Since May 1995 Hungary has its own netnews hierachy, with the following
groups created so far (hun.lists.* are email gateways):
        <news:hun.test>
        <news:hun.news>
        <news:hun.piac>
        <news:hun.comp>
        <news:hun.general>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.forum>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.hunet>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.moka>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.otthonka>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.szalon>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.tipp>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.vita>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.otthon>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.guru>
        <news:hun.lists.hix.kornyesz>
        <news:hun.lists.katalist>

 If you can connect to a remote news server (typically by setting the
NNTPSERVER variable under Unix), then you can get hun.* directly from
news.sztaki.hu or news.iif.hu (the former has been more stable
lately). Fetching articles is much faster from a local source - ask
you system administrator if they can get a feed! In the USA the first
provider offering the hierarchy seems to be AltNet,
<mailto:> to find out about that.  There is a gopher
interface to news: <gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/11/News> (the full URL to
go straight to the hun.* groups is:
<gopher://mars.iif.hu:70/1exec%3A-g%20hun%3A/bin/gonnrp>). 
For accessing groups in the international hierarchy from abroad via
gopher the gateway in the Netherlands may be better:
<gopher://g4nn.cca.vu.nl:4320/1g4nn%20group/soc.culture.magyar>.  The
hun.* groups are also archived by HIX (see its section for 'HUNGROUPS')
and they are also readable under <http://hix.mit.edu/usenet/>; as well
as <http://mineral.umd.edu/usenet/>;.
 HIX provides a universal posting gateway to the soc.culture.magyar and
hun.* newsgroups. Use the addresses:
<mailto:>, for example
<mailto:>. A similar gatewaying service
is also available for soc.culture.magyar via
<mailto:> (see 1.8 below), as well as via
<mailto:> (see also 2.3).

 There are Hungarian local newsgroups available through
<telnet://ludens.elte.hu>, login with username GUEST (no password), and
enter NEWS to start the newsreader (you can use the VMS online help to
learn about it). The guest account is set up for accessing
<news:elte.diaklap> (students' journal at Eotvos U.), but other
newsgroups are available as well. (But please be considerate to the
strained network resources of Hungarian sites - from abroad for
non-local news use other providers.) For ELTE-specific questions
contact <mailto:>. This server is also accessible
via remote NNTP like the two mentioned above, but is often much slower
than those.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.7 'Hungary', the LISTSERV list 

  is a discussion group providing rapid communication
among those with interests in Hungarian issues. Subscribe by 
<mailto:> using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY Yourfirstname Lastname. Once you
have subscribed, any messages which you want to send to the group
should be sent to the group address, <mailto:>.
(This pattern of two addresses is standard: you turn your mail off and
on at the "listserv" address, and you send mail to the listname
address. For example, to  unsubscribe, send the server the message
SIGNOFF HUNGARY. You can temporarily turn off you mail by sending
listserv the message SET HUNGARY NOMAIL. SET HUNGARY MAIL turns mail
back on.) By default the listserv sends out messages as they arrive,
maybe several ones on busier days. If you prefer daily digest format,
you can issue the command SET HUNGARY DIGESTS (again by sending it to
the LISTSERV address); alternatively you can subscribe to HUNGARY via
HIX as mentioned in 2.1, and receive the same format as the other lists
by HIX. LISTSERV has many useful features, most notably database search
on the list archives - to learn more about it, send commands like SEND
HELP, SEND HELP DATABASE.

 Note that the form of addressing LISTSERV lists such as Hungary may
depend a great deal on your local network configuration and mailer
software. For BITNET mailers you need GWUVM only; the local gatewaying
to BITNET may be BITNET% for VAXMail installations and
 at other places. Ask your local network
administrator first if you're experiencing problems.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 1.8  , the Hungarian-American list

 The Hungarian-American List is an unmoderated discussion forum to
promote communications between people with interest in modern Hungarian
culture and Hungarian cultural heritage. The list brings you, among
other things, news items originating from OMRI, CET, the Hungarian
media and several other sources, that might be of interest for
Hungarians and Americans. The WWW Home Page of the Hungarian-American
list is <http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/>;. Subscribe by
<mailto:>, using no subject and a message
consisting only of SUBSCRIBE HUNGARY. The Hungarian Usenet group -
soc.culture.magyar is available for Hungarian-American List subscribers
via email. You can subscribe to this news-to-mail-to-news service by
<mailto:>, using no Subject, in the body of the
letter write SUBSCRIBE SOC-CULTURE-MAGYAR. The WWW address of the
interactive soc.culture.magyar archive is
<http://mineral.umd.edu/soc.culture.magyar/>;.

 (Notice that this Maryland-based list is distinct from the older
LISTSERV list mentioned in 1.7 that has a broader focus - mentioning
'the HUNGARY list' ususally refers to that latter one! Note also that
the Majordomo server syntax is different from LISTSERV for many of
their commands - see the help document sent by the server.)

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.  NEWS AND DISCUSSION GROUPS IN HUNGARIAN

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.1  HIX

 HIX, or Hollosi Information eXchange, is a non-profit formation run
and supported by several individuals and organizations. HIX was started
in 1989/90 and now it reaches more than 10,000 readers in about 45 countries
around the World.

Its services, mostly in Hungarian, are abundant and change frequently, so
it is best to obtain an up-to-date help file by sending an email message to
<mailto:> (a recent copy of that also seems to be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/MAIN/HELP.ALL>; - but please
notice that there are superseded copies scattered in other parts in
the archive on the one hand, and many of the other files in this same
directory are outdated on the other hand; most notably, DO NOT TOUCH
that ancient version of hungarian-faq found there!). Here's a list of
what it currently offers in email digest format:

 HIR      -- 'Hirmondo', current newspaper survey edited in Budapest
 NARANCS  -- The Internet edition of the 'Magyar Narancs' weekly
 TIPP     -- politics-free questions, tips etc.
 SZALON   -- moderated political discussion forum
 FORUM    -- unmoderated political discussion forum
 GURU     -- computer-related questions
 RANDI    -- moderated personals; anonymous submissions possible
 VITA     -- moderated non-political discussion forum
 OTTHON   -- issues around the home
 MOKA     -- jokes, humor (Hungarian and other)
 MOZAIK   -- semi-regular bits of news and other info, mostly in
	     English, crossposts from the OMRI list, VoA gopher, CET
	     and other sources
 HUNGARY  -- daily digest of the Hungary LISTSERV list (see 1.7)
 SCM      -- gatewayed email digest of the Usenet newsgroup
             soc.culture.magyar 

 The following is not available for email subscription from
Hungary, but are accessible via the SENDDOC interface (or the
'finger ' service for the latest issues):
 HUNGROUPS - gatewayed email digest of the hun.* regional newsgroups

 Note that KEP (transcripts from the videotext news from Hungarian
Television's Kepujsag) has been suspended indefinitely - despite what
HIX' own HELP says.

 To subscribe (unsubscribe) to a particular email-journal, send email
to  ) where NAME is one of the
above.

 The postings for the HIX discussion lists are sent out daily in
digested form. You can send your own submission to ,
whatever NAME is (provided it's actually a discussion list).

 The volume for some of these lists is becoming rather high, e.g. TIPP
often digests dozens of messages in hundreds of lines daily!  You ought
to try targeting your audience properly in order to find those who'd
help with your questions; also keep in mind that readers often answer
to the list rather than the individual even when personal reply is
requested, so if you ask something it's a good idea to subscribe also
(even though technically it's not required) instead of just addressing
a list as a non-subscriber. A reminder to those who reply to a post:
always remember that list messages get sent to several thousand readers,
so consider personal email if the subject is not of general interest!
If you answer through a list it's courteous to send a personal copy
(Cc: with most mailers) as well - this may reach the addressee
considerably earlier than the post distributed through the list.
 Notice the (undocumented) feature of the HIX mail-server: it only
accepts submissions if its address is found in the 'To:' header field!
It would quietly ignore incoming email Cc-d to it, so do not put the
 in the 'Cc:' (you can do so with other addressees).

 The HIX server can also send out archived files, see the SENDDOC
function in its description. In case you have any problems or questions
on the HIX services, please read through the automatic help response
first. If you need human intervention you can reach
<mailto:> - but keep in mind that list managers have
to do plenty other than answering things already laid out in the Fine
Manual.

 You can also view the output of HIX interactively. See section 3.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.2  BLA Sajtoszemle

 Daily selection of articles from leading Hungarian newspapers by
the Lajos Batthyany Foundation, published by the Hungary.Network.
 
 To subscribe (unsubscribe), send email to <mailto:>
(<mailto:>). Also available in 123 accent notations
from the <mailto:> address.

 It is also readable on the WWW under <http://www.hungary.com/bla/sajto/>;.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.3  Nemzet Magyar Internet Vilaglap [Hungarian Internet World Bulleti
n]

 [This section is as provided by <mailto:>]

(1) (E-mail news bulletins)
        "Nemzet" Magyar Internet Vilaglap
        E-mail news digest, Mon-Fri, 25-55k. Comprises East-European
        regional news (by OMRI, in English), excerpts from Hungarian
        press (in Hungarian), and reports on newsworthy items (press,
        events, etc., mostly in Hungarian and occasionally in English)

        Subscription/Unsubscription:
        
        
        www:  http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzet.html

        Publisher and Editor in Chief: 

(2) (usenet e-mail digest)
        "Nemzetiforum"
        Digest of "Soc.Culture.Magyar" by means of e-mail bulletin, filtering
        out all lists and postings beyond size 8k.

        Subscription/Unsubscription:
        
        
        www: http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzetiforum.html

        Publisher and Editor in Chief: 

(3) (www/e-mail gateway)
        E-mail message is acknowledged and posted to "Soc.Culture.Magyar",
        with your address and your subject-definition.
        Simply send contributions to  

        Gateway maintained under direction of:


(5) Hungarian Papers on WWW (liberal to conservative)

        (a)     168 ORA
                http://www.atm.com.pl/COM/xlori/168/ora.html

        (b)     KELET-MAGYARORSZAG
                http://www.bgytf.hu/public/keletm/

        (c)     UJVIDEKI NAPLO
                http://www.mediarange.com/media/huncor/organ/naplo/naplo.htm

        (d)     DEMOKRATA
                http://www.siliconvalley.com/demokrata/

        (e)     NEMZET
                http://www.siliconvalley.com/nemzet.html

        (f)     MAGYAR ELET

http://www.mediarange.com/media/huncor/organ/magyarel/hunlife.htm

        (g)     24. ORA
                http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth/


- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 2.4  Other discussion groups in Hungarian

 A number of email lists are available from servers located in Hungary,
for directory see <gopher://HUEARN.sztaki.hu>. There are many college
publications available online as well, check out the links from the HU
homepage (see below).

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 3. INTERACTIVE SERVICES

 If you are using Hungarian interactive services from abroad (or vice
versa): please note that interactive Internet connections like gopher
may be very slow, even timing out during peak hours - try times of
lower network load when the response time is usually reasonable.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 3.1  What's available on the World Wide Web

 This document you are reading now is hosted at
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq>;, and its directory
has a few other documents and several links to other sites of
interest.

 The Hungarian Home Page is at
<http://www.fsz.bme.hu/hungary/homepage.html>; with links to the
registered Hungarian www servers, including

     - the Prime Minister's Office:  <http://www.meh.hu>; (overseas users
    please notice that the use of the <http://www.hungary.com/meh/>;
    mirror is requested to cut down transatlantic traffic!)

     - a weather forecast page (this is updated daily, and includes weather
    forecasts, meteorological maps, and METEOSAT satellite images; this
    page is in Hungarian)

     - home pages of Hungarian cities (currently Budapest, Debrecen,
    Miskolc, Pecs, Szeged), and of educational and other institutions 

     - a comprehensive list of Hungarian telnet services (e.g. library 
    databases), gopher and ftp sites (3.2). The content of almost all the 
    Hungarian FTP sites is indexed and can be searched.

 The Hungary Online Directory (HUDIR) is at
<http://www.hungary.com/hudir/>; featuring a hierarchical
database of Hungarian online content worldwide. Currently it has links
in excess of 2500.

 HIX has a WWW server in the USA: the URL is <http://hix.mit.edu>;.
To check out fresh content, see <http://hix.mit.edu/friss2/>;, which
gives you a comprehensive table of content for new material arrived in
the last 24 hours (which is typically in the order of 100-150 pages).
Besides back issues of its email journals, and a plethora of other
files in Hungarian and English, it offers an on-line English-Hungarian,
Hungarian-English dictionary (<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/szotar/>; - its
European mirror is at <http://tpri6l.gsi.de/szotar.html>;), and various
home pages and pointers to other sources. Partial mirrors located in
Hungary are <http://www.eunet.hu/eunet/hix/>; (for the Magyar Narancs
archive), and <http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/>; (for some pictures, and
searching the Radir database - see below).

 Hungary.Network - The GateWWWay to Hungary at
<http://www.hungary.com/>; has a number of government, commercial and
organizational users listed.

 TourInform is at <http://www.hungary.com/tourinform/>; is the service
of the Hungarian Tourism Service, the official promotion agency of the
Hungarian Tourist Board. They offer practical information, maps,
broshures and even tours on video casette.

 The Open Media Research Institute has a WWW server, available at
<http://www.omri.cz>;.  Available at this Web site are all back issues
of the Daily Digest, tables of contents for Transition, OMRI's
bi-weekly analytical journal, and information about OMRI's activities
and staff.

 The World Wide Web server of Central Europe Today is at the URL
<http://www.eunet.cz>;.

 Find back issues of the Hungary Report on the World Wide Web at 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-report/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hol>;. 
The Hungary-Online archive is available from 
<http://www.yak.net/hungary-online/>; or <http://www.isys.hu/hrep>; 
as well.

 There is a growing Hungarian resource directory at
<http://mineral.umd.edu/hir/>;. [The same server also hosts a
"Hungarian Electronic Resources FAQ" <http://mineral.umd.edu/faq/>;.]

 There is a "Foreign Languages for Travellers" collection of essential
Hungarian expressions with English, German and French explanation,
complete with sound at
<http://insti.physics.sunysb.edu/~mmartin/languages/hungarian/hungarian.html>;.

 The American Association of Young Hungarians (AAYH) has its homepage
at <http://www.aayh.org/>;.

 A Hungarian church in Chicago has info at
 <http://users.aol.com/MikeC16958/>;.

 The Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College (Nyiregyhaza) offers 
some 3000 pages worth of database for Szabolcs-Szatmar-Bereg county 
(Eastern Hungary) as well as other goodies and general Internet help,
in both Hungarian and English: <http://www.bgytf.hu/>;.

 See also section 2.3 above, which covers
<http://www.siliconvalley.com/>; and refers to other links as well.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 3.2  Gopher and other interactive services

 HIX has a server in the USA: <gopher://hix.mit.edu>. Its services
form just a subset of what it offers as a WWW site. RaDir is sometimes
useful for finding email-addresses, old or new friends on the Net. See
also Section 4.4.

 HIX has a gopher in Hungary as well:
<gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX>, and another mirror at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/hix> (notice that this latter uses a
non-standard Gopher port number). Check also <gopher://gopher.elte.hu>
and <gopher://gopher.sztaki.hu>. Note that gopher is essentially
text-based (thus less satisfying than the Web) but often faster
(therefore less frustrating).

 CET's gopher is called <gopher://gopher.eunet.cz>.

 HIX documents from the archives of hix.mit.edu are available via the
(Unix) 'finger' protocol. Try 'finger ' to see how it
works.  This may be the easiest and fastest access from some sites.

 There is an electronic library at
<gopher://gopher.bke.hu:71/11/elibhu/> (notice the non-standard port)
that has much Hungarian text material, including some classical
poetry.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 3.3  ARENA

 An interactive chat service of HIX, run by the Hungary.Network.
Similar to IRC, but it does NOT require any client software. Simply
<telnet:hix.hungary.com> and you are there.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4. THE NET IN HUNGARY

 Overview: historically, ELLA was the first home-grown X.25
email-system in Hungary. It survives till this very day. EARN was next,
with its BITNET-like infrastructure (4.1). Full Internet connectivity
is provided by HUNGARNET (see 4.2), which really comprises all
academic, research and public non-profit sites.

 Here's a partial list of its domain names:

bme.hu          Technical University of Budapest
sztaki.hu       Computer and Automation Research Institute, Budapest 
elte.hu         Roland Eotvos University of Sciences, Budapest
bke.hu          Budapest University of Economic Sciences
sote.hu         Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
abc.hu          Agricultural Biotechnology Center, Godollo 
gau.hu          Godollo Agricultural University, Godollo
klte.hu         Kossuth Lajos University of Sciences, Debrecen
jpte.hu         Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
u-szeged.hu     Members of the Szeged University Association
bgytf.hu        Gyorgy Bessenyei Teachers Training College
uni-miskolc.hu  University of Miskolc
kfki.hu         Central research Inst. of Physics, Budapest 
vein.hu         University of Veszprem, Veszprem
bdtf.hu         Berzsenyi College, Szombathely
szif.hu         Szechenyi Istvan College, Gyor
blki.hu         Balaton Limnological Res. Inst. of Hung. Acad. Sci.

A schematic map of its topology ('HBONE'):

EBONE    EMPB                          EMPB   EBONE

  ^       ^                             ^       ^
  |       |                             |       |
  |       |   Microwave center ======= IIF Center ------- Miskolci Egyetem
  |       |      Budapest            /   Budapest            Miskolc
  |       |    //  ||    \\         /   //   |
  |       |   //   ||     MTA-KFKI /   //    L--------------- BGYTF
  |       |  //   MBK     Budapest    //     |             Nyiregyhaza
  |       | //   Godollo             //      |
  |      BME              MTA-SzTAKI//       L--------------- KLTE
  |    Budapest ########## Budapest          |              Debrecen
  |      ***                                 |
  |      ***                                 L--------------- GAMF
  L------BKE                                 |              Kecskemet
       Budapest                              |
          #    \                             L---------- Veszpremi Egyetem
          #     \                            |              Veszprem
         ELTE    \                           |
       Budapest   JATE                       L--------------- JPTE
                 Szeged                                       Pecs

 LEGEND

 ***  100 Mbps FDDI
  #    10 Mbps optical cable (Ethernet)
  =     2 Mbps microwave
  |    64 kbps leased line (that's 0.064 Mbps)

Source: HUNGARNET/NIIF (URL <http://www.iif.hu/hungarnet.html>;)

 FidoNet is described in section 4.3, and commercial
networks/email/Internet Providers demand a separate document
('commercial.FAQ'), also see <http://www.sztaki.hu/providers/>;.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.1  BITNET/HUEARN

 What follows is a listing of all EARN nodes in Hungary, with contact
info.  This information is also available on the following gopher:
	 <gopher://cc1.kuleuven.ac.be/11/nodeearn/hungary.helpnode>.

HUBIIF11 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                      
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : hubiif11.sztaki.hu                   
      User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBIIF61 IIF Department Budapest, Hungary                                    
      IIF;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
      Internet address : mars.iif.hu                          
      User Info: Istvan ;+36 1 1665644
      Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBME11  Technical University of Budapest
     Technical University;of Budapest;Muegyetem rkp 9. R. ep;H-1111
     Budapest, Hungary           
     Internet address : atlantis.bme.hu                      
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 4632422               
     Fax : +36 1 1665711             

HUBME51  Technical University of Budapest                                  
     Technical University;Muegytem Rakpart 9;H-1111 Budapest               
     Internet address : bmeik.eik.bme.hu                     
     User Info: Laszlo ;+36 1 1812172                 
     Phone : +36 1 1812172            ; Fax : +36 1 1166711             

HUBPSZ12 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                  
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hubpsz12.sztaki.hu                   ;
     User Info: Sandor ;+36 1 1497984                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUBPSZ61 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             

HUBPSZ62 Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary                
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of
     Sciences;Lagymanyosi ut 11;1111 Budapest
     Net Operator: Sandor ;+36 1 1497986             
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUEARN   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary               
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : huearn.sztaki.hu                     ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 2698286                   
     Phone : +36 1 2698283            ; Fax : +36 1 2698288             

HUECO    University of Economic Sciences Budapest, Hungary                 
     University of Economic Sci;Computer Center;Kinizsi u 1-7;1092 Budapest
     Internet address : ursus.bke.hu                         ;
     User Info: Robert ;+36 1 1175224                    
     Phone : +36 1 1181317            ; Fax : +36 1 1175224             

HUELLA   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary           
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Node admin: Gizella ;+36 1 1497986                
     Phone : +36 1 1497984            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGBOX   Computer and Automation Institute Budapest, Hungary            
     Computer and Automation Inst;Hungarian Academy of Sciences;Victor
     Hugo 18-22;1132 Budapest
     Internet address : hugbox.sztaki.hu                    ;
     User Info: Miklos ;+36 1 1497532                
     Phone : +36 1 1497532            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866             

HUGIRK51 University of Agriculture Sciences
     University of Agriculture;Pater Karoly ut 1;H-2103 Godollo
     Internet address : vax.gau.hu                           ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 28 30200 -1015              
     Phone : +36 28 30200 -1015       ; Fax : +36 28 20804              

HUKLTEDR Kossuth Lajos University Debrecen, Hungary                       
     Internet address : dragon.klte.hu                       ;
     User Info: Robert                           

HUKLTE51 Kossuth Lajos University, Debrecen                                 
     Kossuth Lajos University;Egyetem Ter 1; PF. 58;H-4010 Debrecen        
     Internet address : huni7.cic.klte.hu                    ;
     User Info: Zoltan ;+36 52 18800                      
     Phone : +36 52 18800             ; Fax : +36 52 16783              

HUSOTE51 University of Medical Science Budapest, Hungary                   
     University of Medical Science;SOTE;Ulloi u. 26.;1085 Budapest         
     Internet address : janus.sote.hu                        ;
     User Info: Gabor ;+36 1 1141705                 
     Phone : +36 1 1141705            ; Fax : +36 1 1297866

HUSZEG11 Jozsef Attila University, Szeged, Hungary                         
     Jozsef Attila University;Computer Centre;Arpad ter 2.;H-6720
     Szeged;Hungary                
     User Info: Ferenc ;+36 62 321022
     Miklos ;+36  
     Phone : +36 62 321022            ; Fax : +36 62 322227             

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.2  HUNGARIAN ACADEMIC AND RESEARCH NETWORK (HUNGARNET)

 This information is also available on
<http://www.ripe.net/ripe/hungarnet.html>;.

Organisational Structure: 
 HUNGARNET is an association and also the computer network of Hungarian
institutes of higher education, research and development, libraries and
other public collections. HUNGARNET funding comes from the R&D
Information Infrastructure Program (IIF) sponsored by the Hungarian
Academy of Science, the National Committee of Technological
Development, the Ministry for Culture and Education and the National
Science Foundation. About 500 organizations have access to HUNGARNET
services. HUNGARNET as an association represents Hungary in
international networking organizations (e.g. TERENA).

Generic Services:
 HUNGARNET provides access to the Internet and several other national
network services over leased lines and the public packet switched data
network. Lot of different services (e.g. gopher, ftp, WWW, data bases)
provided by member organizations are available on the net. Centrally
supported and coordinated services are:
 - email (internet SMPT, EARN BSMTP, OSI X.400, UUCP, XXX ELLA) 
 - email gateways between the different email systems above 
 - distribution services (LISTSERV, news) 
 - information services (ftp, gopher, WWW servers, data bases) 
 - directory services (X.500) 
 - individual accounts and login

External Connectivity:  
 HUNGARNET is subscriber to EBONE and EMPB/EuropaNET as well. There are
two 64 kbps leased lines to EBONE (Vienna EBS). These two lines should
be upgraded to a single 256 kbps line in the near future.  HUNGARNET
uses two 64 kbps interfaces on the EMPB/EuropaNET node in Budapest as
well. These two interfaces should also be upgraded to a single 256 kbps
interface very soon.

Internal Connectivity: 
 Internal connectivity of HUNGARNET is based partly on the public X.25
service of the Hungarian PTT and partly on the community's private IP
backbone network (HBONE). The kernel of the HBONE infrastructure is in
Budapest, where several important organizations are connected in
different ways (64-256 kbps leased lines, 1-2 Mbps microwave links, 10
Mbps optical Ethernet, 100 Mbps FDDI). Several cities (regional
centers) in the country are also connected to the network via 64 kbps
leased lines (Miskolc, Nyiregyhaza, Debrecen, Kecskemet, Szeged, Pecs,
Veszprem) and 2 Mbps microwave (Godollo). Now there are about 50
organizations directly connected to the backbone and about 50 others
using IP over X.25. The number of the registered, connected hosts is
about ten thousand. There is an ongoing development, new regional
centers (Kaposvar, Keszthely, Szombathely, Sopron, Gyor) and several
organizations in Budapest will be connected subsequently.  Many users
do not have IP connectivity yet but are connected to the public X.25
network. There are several services (e.g. individual login, mail,
gopher, news) that are open for traditional XXX/X.25 access.

Contact Persons:
Miklos NAGY <mailto:> - head of the HUNGARNET/IIF 
					coordination office
Laszlo CSABA <mailto:> - HUNGARNET/IIF technical director
Balazs MARTOS <mailto:> - HBONE project manager
Nandor HORVATH <mailto:> - Local Internet Registry, 
				.hu top level domain contact
IP address and domain administration: <mailto:> 
Network management: <mailto:>

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.3  FidoNet

 FidoNet connects through sztaki.hu, as indicated above.

 There are three FidoNet nodes: Budapest NET (2:371/0); West Hungary
Net (2:372/0); and Tisza NET (2:370/0). If you want to write on the
FidoNet, chances are you already know how. *PLEASE* find out what you
are about to do instead of experimenting with the Hungarian net - don't
add to the problems for the folks in Hungary having to deal with the
underdeveloped phone system and outrageous international tolls ;-<. For
further information I post a Fido-sheet separately from this FAQ, where
there are also telephone numbers and further addresses, but again: try
to verify that you are mailing to a valid address (the BBS situation
may have changed since the copy you are reading got updated - look for
current FIDO listing on the net, or better yet contact the person you
want to reach by other means first)!. If you can send Internet email
and have the FidoNet address, you can write to it by transforming it to
appropriate .FIDONET.ORG format.

 Fidonet mail works with Hungarian BBS's but you have to know whom to
reach. I will attempt to maintain a separate Fido posting to Usenet;
please try to make sure you email to a valid address and in particular
avoid using outdated sources on Hungarian BBS's (otherwise your
misdirected trial will burden the Hungarian network coordinator!).

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 4.4  Finding out somebody's email-address in Hungary

 The bigger academic domains have on-line directories (CSO phonebooks):

Technical University, Budapest
      gopher://goliat.eik.bme.hu/11/engl/tel-adat/hazi-tele

Budapest University of Economic Sciences*
      gopher://URSUS.BKE.HU:71/11/kozgaz/telefon
(*under construction)

Semmelweis University of Medical Sciences, Budapest
      <gopher://xenia.sote.hu:105/2>

Central Research Inst. of Physics, Budapest
      <gopher://sunserv.kfki.hu:105/2>

Members of the Szeged University Association
      <gopher://sol.cc.u-szeged.hu:105/2>

Janus Pannonius University of Sciences, Pecs
      <gopher://ipiux.jpte.hu:1051/2>
	<http://ipisun.jpte.hu/cgi-bin/ph.pl>;

University of Veszprem
      <gopher://miat0.vein.hu:105/2>

 ELLA also has an on-line directory: <telnet://hugbox.sztaki.hu:203>
(i.e. address a special port). Note that the opening screen uses
special characters for the accented letters but the data records have
combinations of vowel plus ',: or " instead (i.e. searching for
hollo'si would retrieve a record, but hollosi won't)!

 If the person has registered him/herself with the RaDir database of
HIX, you might try the following (note, however, that most parts of
RaDir are badly out of date):

 - by <gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/radir> (a link to the same is
offered by <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/>; on the World Wide Web); from
inside Hungary use <gopher://hix.elte.hu/11/HIX/HIX/radir>, or
<http://hal9000.elte.hu/hix/radir.html>; (this last one is a true HTML
search form)). Under RaDir, you'll find the entire database
cross-indexed by search keys.

 - by 'finger +whois:"SEARCHWORD"@hix.mit.edu' you can look up records
containing "SEARCHWORD" string in the database

 - by email: send a blank message <mailto:>. You'll
receive, in several chunks, the entire database of users, their
electronic and snail-mail addresses, etc. You'll need a decent editor
to search what you're looking for.

 If you have some idea what institution to check at, you may find an
online directory service -- many are available, and could be reached
through the Hungarian gophers (or WWW sites) mentioned in section 3.
Try contacting the (electronic) postmaster, usually
, or using 'finger' to inquire about users.

 As a last resort, send in your query to a discussion group. Readers of
<news:soc.culture.magyar>, <mailto:> discussion
list (section 1.7), or some HIX-list (<mailto:> in
particular, see 2.1) may be able to help. Be aware, though, that most
participants are located abroad - especially in the case of the Usenet
group!

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.  ODDS AND ENDS

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.1  Traveling with a computer in Hungary

 The electricity is 220 V, 50 Hz. The frequency, in fact, fluctuates a
lot, but it doesn't cause any problem when operating computer devices.
(Don't trust too much your plug-in clock radios though.) If you are
from any country running on 110 V or around, due to complications in
voltage conversion, a battery driven laptop or notebook is your best
bet. However, if you decide to take your desktop system, printer, etc.,
you  have a good chance that the device can also be operated on 220 V.
Check it first before you go through unnecessary trouble. If not, you
have to apply 220 V to 110 V AC converters (you might need more than
one; check the power ratings of your devices & converters). WARNING!
Your converters should be designed for *electronic/motorized devices*.
Refuse any converter for *heating appliances* even if its power rating
is much higher! These converters are not real transformers, and can
cause major damages to your electronic devices.

 Also make sure you are able to connect to the Hungarian grounded power
outlet, because that's what's recommended for your appliances.
Therefore you should try to find grounded plug adapters and/or voltage
converters.  Connecting to ungrounded outlets causes possibly no harm,
but for your own & your devices' safety grounded connections should be
preferred.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2  Conventions & standards for coding Hungarian accents

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.0 Introduction & section overview  

 During the evolution of teletypes and computers, two character tables
survived, acquiring major importance in later computer systems. One is
EBCDIC, primarily used in ancient IBM mainframes. The other one, ASCII,
can be considered today's ubiquitous standard in computing worldwide.
The rest of this section, therefore, pays attention to ASCII code, very
unfairly ignoring EBCDIC, since none of the accent conversion programs
support neither this code table nor the CMS environment.

 Since the language of computing has been English from the beginning,
the original ASCII table was limited to the characters used in English:
letters of the Latin alphabet, a few punctuation marks and some other
special symbols. Since the number of all these characters, plus the
unprintable "control" characters (located in the first 32 positions of
the ASCII table, responsible for different control functions) doesn't
exceed 128, the real 'brilliant' idea of representing the ASCII table
in 7 bits spread like wild fire all over the computer world. No wonder,
that most of the Internet mailers and Usenet hubs are also set up to
forward documents in 7-bit ASCII only.  (Read the rest of the section
carefully to learn how to overcome these problems.) As computing and
word processing started to rise up in the rest of the world, there was
an increasing demand to represent these national characters as well. (A
good example is Hungarian. The extra consonants [nonexistent in
English] are formed by merely juxtaposing 2 (or 3 in case of dzs)
regular Latin characters; so there is no problem here.  However, the
special vowels of the language are denoted by applying different
accents on the Latin 'base-vowel', introducing new characters, the so
called accented vowels.) It's an obvious idea to place these national
characters and other fancy symbols utilizing codes 128 to 255, still
remaining within the byte limit. Different character sets have been
created by defining purpose- or language-specific characters for the
upper half of the table, while keeping the 7-bit ASCII codes unchanged.
(Note:  Some character sets also re-use codes between 0 and 31, the
domain of ASCII control characters, keeping some, or none of them.
Using these codes, however, is pretty difficult, device- and
implementation-dependent, etc.  Therefore it wouldn't be wise to put
accented characters here, but fortunately none of the sets listed below
did it actually.) Hopefully Unicode will ultimately stop this
confusion, but until then there's a long long way to go.

At this point let's clarify the terminology:

... ASCII (also 7-bit or plain ASCII) data:
Usually text (but not necessarily, see 5.2.5.1.), containing only 7-bit
ASCII characters, including the control ones.
... 8-bit (extended) ASCII data:
Text containing the uniform 7-bit ASCII characters, plus special
characters (with code greater than 127) according to one of the 8-bit
character sets.
... Binary data:
Non-text data (executables, pictures, etc.) containing any 8-bit value.

 The different kludges accepted by Internet users to denote accented
vowels in 7-bit ASCII are described in 5.2.1. The most important
extended ASCII character sets are introduced in 5.2.2. 5.2.3 shows the
accented character representations used by high-level formatting
languages. The correct ways of transferring files among word processor
[on the Net] are detailed in 5.2.4. If the data to be transferred is
not 7-bit ASCII, 5.2.5 tells you what to do. Last, but not least, 5.2.6
introduces the programs in the HIX archives (and mentions some others)
that address the problem of conversion between the various types of
accent representation.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.1 House rules for plain (7-bit) ASCII

 If you are limited to the use of 7-bit ASCII, you have essentially the
following choices to deal with the accented characters:

5.2.1.0 No accent marks at all

 Simple and sure-fire. In fact, the most common 'solution'.

5.2.1.1 The '~" coding (also called "marking notation" or "Babai-code")
        [Sometimes nicknamed as _repu~lo"_.]

 Here's a sample:

         O~t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu~nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu~ko~rfu'ro'ge'p
         O~t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru~lt i'ro't nyu'z

or, in the alternative ':" _repu:lo"_ format:

         O:t hu"to"ha'zbo'l ke'rtu:nk szi'nhu'st
         a'rvi'ztu"ro" tu:ko:rfu'ro'ge'p
         O:t sze'p szu"zla'ny o"ru:lt i'ro't nyu'z

 Quite readable, though a bit tricky to disambiguate mechanically:
remember, the " or : or ' may also serve as punctuation marks. (This
problem can be handled using Maxent's escaping capabilities, see
5.2.6.6.)

Warning! Don't get confused: in TeX (see 5.2.3.1) " denotes umlaut!

5.2.1.2 The 123 coding (also "numerical notation" or "Pro1sze1ky-code")

 Here's the same text:

         O2t hu3to3ha1zbo1l ke1rtu2nk szi1nhu1st
         a1rvi1ztu3ro3 tu2ko2rfu1ro1ge1p
         O2t sze1p szu3zla1ny o3ru2lt i1ro1t nyu1z

 The only one that's both short and unambiguous, though it takes some
getting used to. 1 stands for the stroke, 2 for the short umlaut, 3 for
the 'Hungarian' or long umlaut (double acute). Very easily converted to
other formats. (Also can be ambiguous, though with much smaller
probability. E.g. U2, CO2, , etc.)

5.2.1.3 Telegraphic style. For example,

         Oet huetoehaazbool keertuenk sziinhuust
         aarviiztueroe tuekoerfuuroogeep
         Oet szeep szuezlaany oeruelt iiroot nyuuz

 Avoid it like the plague because

1. It's ambiguous. (Think of Goethe, Oetker, Eoersi, Csooori, poeen.) 
2. Coding of o" & u" (o3 & u3) is not consistent:
   u3 = ue (fallback to u2), uue, uee, ueue
3. Absolutely not a pleasure to read.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.2 Fancy 8-bit character sets (extended ASCII)

 The following rollcall lists the most important character sets
supported by the majority of hardware and software, including the
accent conversion programs. The available Hungarian accented characters
are detailed for each set.

Notes: 

 Henceforth when referring to an accented character, the numerical
(Pro1sze1ki) notation will be used to maintain clarity.


5.2.2.1 PC-codepages

(*) PC-437: Hardware

 The basic hardware character set of PC-compatible systems. Since it
was supposed to contain many symbols (line drawing characters, some
Greek letters, etc.), and be general, it's pretty poor in terms of
accented characters. Missing Hungarian vowels: o3, u3 [substitute them
with o^ & u^], A1 [substitute it with A-circle], I1, O1, O3, U1, U3.

(*) CWI recommendation for Hungarian accents:

A standard initiative to replace the many house rules of character code
assignment for accents unavailable in PC-437. Codes are assigned as
follows:

o3->147 [o^], u3->150 [u^], A1->143, I1->141 [i`] or 140 [I^],
O1->149 [o`], O3->167, U1->151 [u`], U3->153 [y~]

(*) PC-850: Multilingual

Contains all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.
Note: ? means o, u, O or U.

(*) PC-852: Latin 2

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

(*) PC-860: Portuguese
(*) PC-863: Canadian-French
(*) PC-865: Nordic

These sets miss various Hungarian accents, esp. in upper case. Using
them for a Hungarian text makes absolutely no sense.

5.2.2.2 ISO character sets

 These character sets are specified by ISO standards. As far as ALL
(not only Hungarian) accented vowels concerned, ISO 8859/1, 2 & 9 is
equivalent to Windows Latin 1, 2 & 5 respectively.

(*) ISO 8859/1:
(*) ISO 8859/3:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

(*) ISO 8859/2:

Contains all the accented vowels. Try to use this if available.

 Fonts for iso-8859-2 (and some other) character sets can be found at
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/font/> for various operation systems, and at
<ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/> (mirrored at
<ftp://ftp.vma.bme.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/> and
<ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/ssa/kbd_es_font/>) mostly for Unix. There is
material for Hungarianizing the Linux (and possibly other Unix variant)
operation system at <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/linux/>.

5.2.2.3 Others

The following character sets are supported by various laser printers. 
Roman-8 bears special importance as being the default character set of
many printers.

(*) Ventura International & Roman-8:
(*) MC Text:

Contain all the accented vowels but ?3. Substitute them with ?^.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.3 Text formatting languages

 The text formatting languages listed below, beyond their powerful text
formatting capabilities, also include the specification of [almost] all
the accented characters. These languages give an alternative way of
dealing with accents in 7-bit ASCII, especially if the software that
can display, print or convert these representations is available.
[Unlike notations in 5.2.1, the "raw" files of these languages are not
intended to be read by ordinary users.]

5.2.3.1 [La]TeX. 

 Invented by D. E. Knuth, TeX (pronounce as [tech]; 'X' denotes the
Greek letter 'chi'), and the macro collection based on it, LaTeX, are
today's most popular text formatting languages for document creation
and DTP.

To continue with the same example,

 \"{O}t h\H{u}t\H{o}h\'{a}zb\'{o}l k\'{e}rt\"{u}nk sz\'{\i}nh\'{u}st

 \'{a}rv\'{\i}zt\H{u}r\H{o} t\"{u}k\"{o}rf\'{u}r\'{o}g\'{e}p

 \"{O}t sz\'{e}p sz\H{u}zl\'{a}ny \H{o}r\"{u}lt \'{i}r\'{o}t ny\'{u}z

 This is meant to be printed with TeX or previewed as a dvi file.
 Wholly unambiguous, can be automatically converted to/from several
other formats (see 5.2.6). Also check the babel system for LaTeX with
the Hungarian specific option, available from FTP sites kth.se or
goya.dit.upm.es.

5.2.3.2 HTML (HyperText Markup Language)

 Unfortunately, the HTML-2 standard still does not contain notation for
Hungarumlaut (long umlaut, double acute). We use tilde or circumflex
instead. The preferred notation is o with tilde õ and u with
circumflex û. In the example above,

   Öt hûtõházból kértünk
   színhúst

   árvíztûrõ
   tükörfúrógép

   Öt szép szûzlány õrült
   írót nyúz

5.2.3.3 RTF (Rich Text Format)

 This standard is widespread among Microsoft word processors. For
non-ASCII characters it uses the following coding:

\'XX

where XX is the code of the given ISO 8859/2 (or PC-852 for Word for
DOS) character in hexadecimal.

5.2.3.4 Adobe PostScript

 It is a universal standard for describing any kind of graphics,
including fonts, but it is aimed at producing the final (typically
printed) copy of documents and not at word-processing per se. For a
starter document see <http://www.adobe.com/PS/PS-QA.html>; or
<ftp://wilma.cs.brown.edu/pub/comp.lang.postscript/FAQ.txt> or
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/postscript/faq/part1-4>.
If one has the right accented fonts sets then, in theory, the output is
transferable between different machines - but often we run into hurdles
in practice.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.4 Microcomputer products: The word processors 

 Different word processors on different microcomputers use several
proprietary internal control sequences to handle accented characters,
as much as other symbols, and other text formatting commands. If you
want to transfer a document like this, you have to convert this [very
probably] binary file (8-bit ASCII with all kinds of binary crap) to
text (7-bit ASCII), see 5.2.5.1, unless your mailer can handle binary
directly, see 5.2.5.2. Make sure, however, that the recipient of your
document also possesses the same or equivalent word processor, or a
word processor supporting the format you used.

 It might happen that you want to use your document in another word
processing system, or a plain text editor. Today's word processors
offer conversion to a few formats, and also pure text with different
character sets (5.2.2). The resulting file, if necessary, can be
converted further to 7-bit ASCII as shown in 5.2.6. (The output is
already 7-bit ASCII in Microsoft's RTF, see 5.2.3.3.)

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.5 Switching binary to ASCII and vice versa

5.2.5.1 Uuencode & uudecode

 The easiest and most popular way of conversion between binary and
ASCII is the use of the twin sisters uuencode and uudecode. These
programs were created originally for Unix ('uu' stands for Unix to
Unix), but today they are implemented under most platforms.

 Uuencode makes an ASCII file out of a binary one, forming 61 character
long lines to avoid problems excessively long lines can cause in the
different mailer agents. This conversion increases the size of the file
by 40%.  Warning! Understand the really goofy usage of uuencode. The
parameters specify the local & remote BINARY filenames respectively.
The encoded ASCII result is sent to the standard output, it has to be
redirected into a file explicitly. (E.g. uuencode myface.gif myface.gif
> myface.uue )

 Uudecode converts the encoded ASCII file back to binary. It is smart:
using the "begin" and "end" tags placed in the encoded file, uudecode
is able to retrieve the encoded information automatically discarding
everything before and after the tags (headers, signatures, other junk),
even if it's inserted in the middle of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Its
usage is also simple: only the input filename has to be specified; the
original filename is restored from the "begin" tag. (E.g. uudecode
yourface.mal )

5.2.5.2 MIME support

 Many modern mailers support the MIME (Multipurpose Internet Mail
Extensions) standard being able to transfer different file formats
beyond plain text. In this case the ASCII/binary conversion is the
mailer's internal affair. Some mailers make explicit calls to uuencode
and uudecode, some others (e.g. PINE) have different built in
conversion algorithms, trying to choose the most appropriate one for
the given binary file. (One type of MIME encoding substitutes an
unprintable character by its code in hexadecimal, preceded by an =
sign. That's why you often see them splattered around.) In either case,
however, the user is not responsible for the conversion, the mailer
takes care of it automatically.

5.2.5.3 Binhex

 BinHex files are 7-bit ASCII text files, typically used for encoding
Macintosh binaries. Conversion is done by various applications, see eg.
<ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/comp.answers/macintosh/general-faq>.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 5.2.6 Translating between various accent formats

 From the HIX archives (see section 3) the following programs are
available.  The regular location is 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/info/programs/>;, though
you should also check <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/>; 
for updates. At the time of this writing the SENDDOC archive is 
extremely ill-organized and outdated in many parts, including, 
unfortunately, the 'new' directory.

 Warning! From abroad always access the HIX archives via 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/>;,
<gopher://hix.mit.edu/11/HIX/senddoc>,
<mailto:>, or 'finger '
(the latter only works for text, and you may have to redirect it to a
pager or file). The mirror at <gopher://hix.elte.hu> is updated only at
certain periods of time, also there is a limited bandwidth on the lines
connecting Hungary to the world (see section 4).

5.2.6.1 ekezettelenites

 Gabor Toth's UNIX shell script for deleting unwanted accents from mail
files.

5.2.6.2 etex

 Gabor Toth's shareware C source code for converting the marking or
numerical accent notation to TeX-format. It also claims to be capable
of hyphenation. Supports the UNIX platform.

5.2.6.3 hion

 Peter Verhas's C source code. It's an improved version of etex, as it
reduces the probability of incorrect hyphenation with some built-in
exception library. Hion is able to do the conversion between the
numerical (or, redefining each accent mark, also the marking) accent
notation & TeX-format, and remove accents if the input is an accent
notation. Read his documentation. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS,
UNIX. Available from <ftp://ftp.tarki.hu/pub/magyar/TeX/hion.tar.gz>
or <ftp://ftp.digital.bme.hu/hion/>.

5.2.6.4 drtc.c

 Peter Verhas's freeware C source for conversion between text and RTF
(Rich Text Format), character sets ISO 8852/2 (Latin 2), PC-852 (Latin
2) and CWI. The program attempts to find out the inbound format
automatically, RTF or text as well as used character set. The outbound
format is the same as the inbound format, the program changes only the
character set. In other words, the program does not convert from RTF ot
text or from text to RTF. Supported platforms: VMS, MS-DOS, & UNIX and
other platforms supporting ANSI C.

5.2.6.5 hun.c

 Gabor Ligeti's freeware C source code for accent removal and
conversion between the marking & numerical accent notation, TeX-format
and PC-852 (Latin 2) codepage. Warning! Conversion capabilities are not
orthogonal, type hun /? for the supported conversions. No platform
limitations are indicated.

5.2.6.6 MAXENT.UUE_V6.0a

 Peter Csaszar's freeware C source code compressed with pkzip & encoded
with uuencode (see 5.2.5.1). Warning! As of 6/12/95, the HIX gopher's
/HIX/SENDDOC/info/programs directory still contains 'maxent.c', the
very old version V1.4 of Maxent. Don't touch this file, go for version
V6.0a, currently in <http://hix.mit.edu/hix/hixcore/senddoc/new/MAXENT.Z>;.

 Maxent provides 100% orthogonality in conversion between any of the
accent notations listed in 5.2.1 but telegraphic style, and any of the
character sets listed in 5.2.2, allowing multiple notations in the
input file. The domain of conversion includes 6 vowels and 6 accent
types, applying therefore a house rule extension of the marking and
numerical accent notations. (Hoping that this extension becomes widely
accepted, no longer remaining a house rule.) Language accent profiles
other than the default Hungarian can be selected. Further accent
services include accent notation escaping & de-escaping (see 5.2.1.1),
and flexible substitution of the o3 etc. characters.

 Beyond some little services, the rest of the major features provide
comprehensive retabulation strategies, full newline conversion
capabilities and script file execution (ideal for maintaining mail
folders after download).

 The help given by the program can be saved into a file by typing
maxent -h0 > maxent.hlp . Print this file for fancy bedtime reading.

 Maxent supports only the MS-DOS environment, and should be compiled by
a Borland C compiler. This is the sacrifice for the extensive services
provided.

5.2.6.7 ekezet.dot

 Via anonymous <ftp://bme-tel.ttt.bme.hu/pub/income/ekezetes/>, you can
find Kornel Umann's WinWord template capable of many kinds of
conversion.  Also find other goodies in the directory above.

5.2.6.8 hixiso

 Olivier Clary's Unix scripts for converting accented text appearing
on HIX are at <ftp://almos.vein.hu/ssa/kbd_es_font/hixiso.tar.gz>.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject:  5.3 Information sources pertaining to the rest of Central Europe

 This section is by no means to be comprehensive. For a big but dated
(1992) list see
<gopher://poniecki.berkeley.edu/00/archives/polish.archives/Network/EE-MotherLi
st>.

 Both OMRI and CET cover the general region in their news. See Section
1.1 and 1.2, respectively.

 To complement the HUNGARY list (see Section 1.7), at the same listserv
at Buffalo there exist the Middle European discussion list MIDEUR-L as
well as POLAND-L and SLOVAK-L. Send the usual command to
<mailto:> (or simply  on
BITNET):

      SUBSCRIBE listname-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname.

 On Usenet there is soc.culture.romanian, soc.culture.czecho-slovak,
soc.culture.polish, and the gatewayed bit.listserv.mideur-l and
bit.listserv.slovak-l; bit.listserv.hungary has been established, but
many sites do not have it. The surest way to receive everything is via
email. If you prefer using Usenet newsreaders you find HIX's HUNGARY
digests posted to soc.culture.magyar (which group does not seem to
suffer the poor propagation affecting some of the bit.listserv
groups).  Please notice that while the listserv groups are
bi-directionally gatewayed, i.e. posts to them get propagated back to
the original mailing list, the posts coming from HIX to
soc.culture.magyar are mere copies of the mailing list messages - do
not reply to the newgroups since your answer won't reach the email
readers (who constitute a likely large majority).

 Speaking of limitations of distribution be aware that some commercial
Internet connection providers (most blatantly American Online)
established their own groups with topics overlapping existing Usenet
hierarchy. The utility of these local groups is seriously limited since
they are, unlike the open real Usenet newsgroups such as those
mentioned above, unavailable to anyone but their own subscribers (i.e.
a small domestic fraction of all the Internet/Usenet users worldwide).
Please do not post to non-local groups saying how nice would be to use
these specialized forums - we can not. Use the newsgroup
soc.culture.magyar or the mailing lists!

 The Central European Regional Research Organization (CERRO) can be
joined at <mailto:> with the command
SUBSCRIBE CERRO-L Firstname Lastname.  This is a scholarly group that
deposits papers and the like in an electronic archive in Vienna.  The
archive is accessible with anonymous <ftp://wu-wien.ac.at>, or with
<gopher://gopher.wu-wien.ac.at>.

 The Eastern Europe Business Network ) is
primarily remarkable for its size (1700+ subscribers). Messages tend to
be brief bursts of announcements, questions and, unsurprisingly, calls
for or queries about business. The list is administered by Yale's Civic
Education Project (Chris Owen, <mailto:>). To
subscribe, send a message to the address
<mailto:> that has

             subscribe e-europe YourFirstName YourLastName
in its body.

 The repository for Voice of America material, accessible with
<gopher://gopher.voa.gov>, also contains some information and news
items relevant to the region.

 Check the NATO archive for goodies: <gopher://gopher.nato.int>.

 The Slovakia Document Store will answer all your questions about
Slovakia:  on the World Wide Web, <http://www.eunet.sk>;, via
<gopher://gopher.eunet.sk>, via <ftp://ftp.eunet.sk/slovakia/>, via
gophermail: send a message with Subject: HELP
<mailto:>.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 6.  CONTRIBUTORS TO THIS FAQ

(the order is alphabetical by last name)

Beke Tibor     <mailto:>           general layout, 2.1, 5.3
Bruner, Rick   <mailto:>     1.3
Csaszar Peter  <mailto:>   5.1, 5.2
Fabian Peter   <mailto:> 3.1, 4.1, 4.4
Fekete Zoli    <mailto:>           much of the rest
Hewes, Cameron <mailto:>      1.2
Hollo Kriszta  <mailto:>         4.2
Saghi-Szabo Gotthard <mailto:>, section 1.8
Toth, Joseph   <mailto:>, section 2.3
Umann Kornel   <mailto:>        5.2
Varnum, Ken    <mailto:>       1.1

 If you have a question or remark regarding some specific section, you
may want to contact its author. The FAQ as such continues to be
maintained by Zoli Fekete <mailto:>. The keeper hereby
expresses the many thanks we all owe to every contributor - and above
all to Tibor Beke who brought about this cooperative effort, and took
upon consolidating the whole (with Peter Csaszar who took over the
next-to-last editing). Still, any errors (with the exception of the
independently maintained section 2.3) are the responsibility of Zoli -
who'd like to hear all corrections, recommendations or just comments
readers may have!
 Acknowledgement is also due here to Jozsef Hollosi and Arpad Palotas,
for providing webspace to this FAQ on the HIX server and helping to
improve its homepage, respectively.

- - - ------------------------------

Subject: 7.      How to read this FAQ - what's in there < ~!@#$%^&* >

 One of these days ;-) there will be a guide here about how to handle
all the strange things that you may see embedded in this text; but in
the meantime, if you don't know yet what URLs are and are not reading a
copy thru a WWW browser that may show a selectable link: just do the
sensible thing and use email to access 'mailto:' addresses, ftp for
'ftp:' and telnet for 'telnet:'...

 Updated versions of this document will be in
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/posted>;
or <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq>. Notice
that the canonical Usenet archive <ftp://rtfm.mit.edu> is often
overloaded - if you can't get connected try one of the mirror sites (of
which a list by countries can be found in
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/news-answers/introduction>
that is also available thru the RTFM mail-server shown below) - eg.
<ftp://mirrors.aol.com/pub/rtfm/usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq> in
the USA! You can also retrieve it via <mailto:>
with the command "send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq" in the body
of the message, or via 'finger '.
 A brief extract of hungarian-faq, concentrating on the email services,
is also available now
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer>; or 
'finger '.
 A separate document on network service providers in Hungary
prepared independently by John Horvath <mailto:> is
available via email from its author or via
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/comm-providers>;.

 This hungarian-faq is expected to be updated at least every couple of
months, due to the rapid changes occuring on the net. If you are
reading a copy whose 'Last-modified:' date shown on top is older than
that then many parts may be out of date - in this case get the recent
one from the sources listed above, and/or try to convince the
administrator of the site keeping the old copy to freshen it. Please
notice that retrieving from the Usenet archives is likely a lot faster
than asking me personally (and most everything I can answer is already
in here)! If you do write me <mailto:>, then give a
descriptive 'Subject:' line - keep in mind that much of my incoming
email deemed unworthy by me is deleted unread in order to keep up with
the high volume I am receiving (most of it from various mailing
lists). The best way to ensure catching my attention - and to allow
automatized pre-processing - is to start it with 'ZFIX:' (the name my
mail-handler answers to is Zophisticated Free Information eXchange, in
case you were wondering :-)).

 This work as a collection is copyright (1990-96) Zoli Fekete, and
parts are copyright of their respective authors. Please do not
redistribute substantial portions without contacting the maintainer.
 Since February 14, 1996 this document is authenticated 
by my secure public-key encrypted electronic signature 
(see <http://www.ifi.uio.no/pgp>; for details), 
 the public key for which is shown in the WWW link 
<http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/pgp-key.asc>; 
and is also attached to the end of the text available via
 'finger '!
 Unauthorized publishing in off-line media - such as printed, CD-ROM or 
magnetic databases - is explicitly prohibited!  

Archive-name: hungarian/faq
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: faq
Last-modified: 1996/02/14
Version: 1.41
Posting-Frequency: every fifteen days
- - - --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '> 

SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

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SMF User > wrote:

>The increasingly obvious rise to prominence 
>of Jews in the media and in positions of power 
>in this country has clearly created growing 
>resentment among non-Jews.  What are the sources 
>of this resentment?  (1) A major cause is certainly 
>Jewish clannishness.  The Jews in this country have 
>been the leaders in what has by now turned into a 
>witchhunt directed against "racism."  I don't want 
>to try to define racism, which is entirely a different 
>topic, but I think that "racism", like "anti-Semitism," 
>really has much more to do with politics and political 
>manipulation that with personal virtue or civic responsibility.  
>It's like the story of the emperor's new clothes.  
>To return to the issue of Jewish clannishness, Jews are 
>fond of crying about racism, but I know of no other 
>ethnic or racial group which is so concerned with 
>race and ethnicity.  (Note the frequent internet postings of 
>Jews: "Is [pick a name, Billy Joel, George Washington, 
>Queen Elizabeth, etc. etc.] Jewish?" Does or should it 
>really matter?) What other group has such stringent rules 
>discouraging assimilation with other groups?  Jews have 
>often taken from other cultures in order to enrich Jewish 
>culture.  It not clear to me, for example, why Jews could 
>not speak German or Romance, but had to establish their 
>"own" Yiddish and Ladino languages. Thus, I and many other 
>people see a basic hypocrisy in Jewish concern with "racism" 
>and in their own "racist" behaviour.  

<snipped>>


I think its so wonderful that you know so much about Jewish people -
all this detail.  My goodness.  Where did you learn it all.  I bet I
know.  You ARE one of us!!!!!

Brigitta Bali ) wrote:
: |
: |Don't have to take IT to dinner! No need for flowers, always
: |willing.........
: |Can you do better?

: How many times in my life have I heard that old comment. Can't you
: porkchops ever come up with anything original?

UP OR DOWN, AS LONG AS WE COME!

: Can I do better? Much much better, I wouldn't treat such a delicacy as a
: cheap sausage.
: So keep it in mind, 
: keep it in hand,
: with an ugly gland.

--
		"Csak egy hobo vagyok egy viragcserepben"

In Turkish

'Seni seviyorum'

 wrote:
> 
> Teruletrendezest!
------------------------------
Bodi Antal valasza:
 FELHIVAS Kozep-Europa Bekes Teruletrendezesere
> A Vilag Osszes Magyar Szervezetehez es Egyhazahoz!
> Javslom, hogy a teruletrendezesbe vonjuk be a Siliconvalleybe mukodo harcos, 
nemzeti erzelmu 
hazafiakat. Ezt ugy kepzelem el, hogy keruljenek azok hatalomra
Magyarorszagon, akit Ok akarnak.  Csinaljanak azt, amit Ok akarnak. 
Ennek azonban egy feltetele van, hogy (lak)helyet es egzisztenciat
kell cserelniuk egy hasonlo  koru, mai Magyarorszagon elo
allampolgarral csaladostul. Szivesen felajalkozok cserepartnernek: 
"32 eves feher ferfi ket diplomaval es ket gyerekkel" jeligere varom a
bekes teruletrendezesi  partnerek jelentkezeset. Termeszetesen az
ingosagok is tulajdonost cserelnek, igy fajo szivvel  megvalok a
Trabantomtol... Igerem, hogy nagyon jo otleteket fogok kuldozgetni az
ocean masik  partjarol!
Udvozlettel :Toni
----------------------------

No de ilyet? A ket-diplomas es ket-gyermekes feherboru Bodi Antal
helyet es "vagyont" cserelne az ocean masik partjan elo akarkivel?
Baratunk odaat -- a  jelek szerint  --  ellene van barmilyen
teruletrendezesnek, ugyanakkor   kedvenc  Trabantjatol  is hajlando
lenne megvalni, csakhogy "otleteket" kuldozgethessen innen? -
Gondolt-e mar arra kedves Toni, hogy miert van onnek Trabantja es
miert nincs Mercedese es miert nem lakhat a Rozsadombon? Es mibol
gondolja, hogy  eppen a magyar erdekekert harcolo  Siliconvalley
nemzeti erzesu harcosai  lennenek Magyarorszag halalos ellensegei?
Egyaltalan tudja-e on, hogy KIK Magyarorszag egykori,  jelen es jovo
ellensegei, akik miatt onnek csak Trabantra tellik?
Onnek orulnie kellene, hogy valakik az oceannak ezen a felen szot
emelnek a magyar sors miatt. De nem! Ehelyett on is beall a csaholok
korustagjai koze es sarral dobalja azokat, akik -- lehetosegeik
szerint - onzetlenul naponta dolgoznak az 1920-ban megcsonkitott,
eletlehetosegeitol megfosztott Magyarorszag  erdekeiert.
On csak annyit kepes ajanlani nekunk, hogy menjunk haza, tartsuk  oda
a hatunkat es ott kiabaljunk, ... ha merunk, s  majd meglatjuk,
mennyire haladunk.??? De annyi mar nem jut az eszebe, hogy esetleg mi
a magyar igazsag hirdetesevel tobbet tehetnenk idekint? Ezert nem
ledorongolast, gyyulolkodest, kigunyolast, hanem egy kis koszonetet
erdemelnenk? Ha mi nemzeti erzesu siliconvalley-s magyarok olyan jol
erezzuk magunkat ebben a fene gazdag zsiros kapitalizmusban, gondolja,
hogy csupan szorakoztato idotoltesbol dolgozunk? Jobban szeretne on,
ha hallgatnank es nem torodnenk a hazaval? 
Meg az a szerencse, hogy nemcsak  teljes agymosott  es sotetsegben
botorkalo 'bodi antalok' vannak a vilagon:  - otthon mar egyre tobb
embernek nyiladozik a szeme!  (TJ)

George D. aki ezt irja a Katona Jeno javaslatara:
"Ez a Katona nem egy "lelki pasztor", ez a pali rosszabb az ordognel!
Ez a pasas egy antiszemita szemet! Ez hivja magat "lelki pasztor"-nak?
Egy gyulolkodo idiota?"
---
Jo lenne tudni, hogy vajon PONTOSAN  mit is irt Katona Jeno, amiert
George D.-tol megkapta az "antiszemita" belyegzot? Mar eszrevehettuk,
hogy George mindig ott all  keszenletben, s szinte beteges
megszallottsaggal alig varja, hogy  valakire ranyomhassa a "pecsetet".
Hiaba no, o mar csak ilyen hagyjuk meg neki ezt az elvezetet, mert
csakis  ebben eli ki magat. Micsoda elvezet! -- Valaki a
'soc.culture.magyar'-on vajon osszegyujtotte-e mar az  ocsmany
szokinccsel  rendelkezo George D.  gyulolkodo valaszait? Neki persze
lehet gyulolkodni, mert o ezt nemcsak  megengedi maganak, hanem ugy
gondolja, hogy "jogosult" is  ra! 
Meg emlekszunk es nem felejtjuk, hogy egy honappal ezelott  mivel
illette Kerekes Botondot,  azert meg megirta "Tiborc panaszat"! 
De ami itt tortenik az mar sokkal tobb mint "antiszemitizmus es
fajgyulolet". E ket hatasos dorongocskat egyesek kisajatitottak
maguknak es alkalmasint  hasznositjak, foleg amikor  ervenyesulesrol
van szo!...
Lilienthal professzornak igaza van!
http/www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth

Dears,

 A lenyegrol feledkezik el mindenki. Stolmar az USA-bol koltozott
 haza Magyarorszagra, es most szemlatomast vissza. Ott Keri Edit fonenivel
 egyutt a modfelett rangos Magyar Piacpart egyik vezetoje volt, mely part
 egyenesen zacseki magaslatokba emelkedett. Jujj, a hideg ver ki, Zacsek
 a re'm, Editke a re'm, Vikike a re'm ;-((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

 Ide kivankozik egy dokumentum,
 ami nyilvan aljas hamisitvany, de a magamfajta liberalis dogkeselyu lecsap
 az ilyesmire. :-)))))

---------------------------------------
 Halas koszonet a kivalo megvedesemert. Azt mondja Pellionisz, hogy ezek
utan ne is foglalkozzak vele, am annyit azert majd megkerdezgetek Varkonyi
Petertol, hogy: hogy eldegel a kedves kadari kulugyminiszter-nagykovet, stb.
papa a hatalmas nyugdijabol? El tudja-e kolteni es nem latja-e igazolva azt,
hogy az ilyen partcsemeteknek, mint o is, sokkal nagyobb volt az esely-"egyen-
losegul", mint az egyenloeknek, mint en is?
	Ide irom a telefonszamom: meg a jovo heten elerhet, aztan koltozom haza ket
egyrekkel, a ferjem, biztonsagbol, ittmarad a harmadikkal, aztan majd meglat-
juk. (412) 327-3129 Nap kozben jobb hivni, mert a jovo heten estenkent mar
koltoztetem az egyetemista fiamat es ferjemet, de termeszetesen, mint minden
jogg csaladban, ram harul a csomagolas es minden "egyeb".
	Sajnalom, hogy titkos a telefonja, tegnap jott meg a ferjem Seattle-bol,szolta
m neki, hogy hivja fel magat, mert nekem csak a cime van meg es segitse-
get akartam kerni a sok tamadas es rokaravaszsagu "erdeklodes" miatt, de megol-
dotta telefon nelkul is. Jol kitalalta, okom van titkolozni, maris nagy erokkel
nyomoznak utanam. De ez csak egy dolog. A MUK miatt kapjuk az apritast es a leg
-alavalobb mocskolodasokat. A Forumba - ha idom lesz es a fiam is itthon lesz,
mert en tok suket vagyok a gephez! - eppen a Kosa Csaba (MUK elnoke, Magyar
Forum foszerkesztoje) elleni hallatlan aljassagot akarom "tanmesekent" beirni.
	Kar, hogy nem tudta, de a legutobbi Hirmondoban, a Spiegel-mocsokban en is
benne vagyok. Az tortent ugyanis, hogy a marciusi otthonletem alatt a Katolikus
Magyarok Vasarnapja szamara keszitett Antall-interjum a miniszterelnok ur kere-
sere es engedelyemet megkerve, belekerult abba a 2 millio 100 ezer peldanyos
Rendkivuli Magyar Forumba, amit mellesleg Lezsakek es Po"sze Lajos, a Szeren-
csejatek Kft. vezere - az egyik legremekebb magyar!rt
 egye - inteztek es a Postabank
is adott hozza penzt.  En vagyok az a "riporterno", aki elmondta Antallnak, hog
y
az emberek a falvakban, amerre jartam, neki meg hisznek. Egyreszt azert kell en
gem most tamadni, mert a MUK alapito tagja vagyok es egyelore NEM tudjak, hogy
kintrol vagy otthonrol irok, mert Csurkaek ugy oldottak meg a dolgot, hogy a
nevem ala sokaig odatettek, hogy USA, azutan egy idore elhagytak, most pedig
megjelent az amerikai interju, ketszer kihangsulyozva, hogy a KMV-ben jelent
meg. (Ezert vagyok egyelore Viktoria is, hogy csak nyomozzanak otthon utanam!)
Masreszt azert kaptam a Spiegelen keresztul IS a kozmoliberalbolsi tamadast,
mert AMERIKARA es az amerikai elnok teves modszerere hivatkoztam es arra csak
nekik szabad, a sajat javukra! (Nem tudom, erdemes lenne-e elmagyarazni, hogy
SGI interjuja szerepel a hirben? Nekem semmikepp.) A hatalmas peldanyszamu
MF is nagyon faj nekik, mert onkentesek minden csaladba eljuttattak, remekul
meg volt szervezve. Ezert is kerult be az interju, mert az emberek semmit sem
tudnak a kormanyrol es fonokerol. Igy most tudnak.
	A munkanelkulisegrol mindent tudni nagyon fontos, mert teljesen FELKESZUL-
VE kell hazamennem, sok mindenbol, mert a multkor sem gyoztem a parlamenti bi-
zottsagokba valo belokdosesemet es az egesz napos kerdesozont. Nem igaz, hogy
nem erdekli oket az emigracio velemenye, csak nem viselik el, ha valaki fenn-
sobbrenduen megy oda.
	Atkuldetek a fiammal egy nagy anyagot, de ez nem a Forume, csak szuk kortajeko
ztatasara szolgal, hogy minden vilagos legyen. Nem CSAK a zsidokkal van
baj, hanem a szabadkomuvesekkel, akik kozul - vezetoi kozott - rengeteg a
zsido. Erdekel majd a velemenye.
 
	Most szaladok vasarolni, udvozlom szeretettel: Stolmar G. Ilona

 --------------------------

 Ennek a nyilvanvaloan hamis levelnek a nyilvanvaloan hamis cimzettjet
 nem ohajtom zavarba hozni ezert toroltem...

 Namarmost. Stolmar G.Ilona az MPP-ben olyan tamogatottsagot szerzett 
 a magyar nep koreben, amit csak Abony szepe tudott alulmulni Egy nagyobb
 lakotelepi hazban elfer annyi ember aki Viktoriaekra szavazott.
 Viktoria szemben Szabo Alberttal meg fekete mumusnak sem jo. 
 A Hocipo fenykepezgette egy idoben, de a kutya nem ismerte fel, aztan
 abbahagytak, ketsegtelenul csinosabb jelenseg mint Bizabella, de erre
 azert ne legyen buszke. Stolmar G.Ilona amerikai haziasszony, allitsatok
 ossze egy listat a felelmetes amerikai haziasszonyokrol, nem kerul be
 az elso huszezerbe... Akkor meg kit erdekel, gyujtson, zsidozzon, (de ne
 rongaljon Wallenberg es Szulejman szobrokat az ugyanis koztulajdon, ugye
 Vikike, ejnye meg a bejnye) ami belefer. Erot egeszseget kivanok hozza,
 EG

STOP ARYAN HINDU CULTIST PROPAGANDA!

 SIKHS ARE NOT ARYANS OR HINDUS!

Followup-To: soc.culture.african.american,soc.culture.austria,soc.culture.balti
cs,soc.culture.intercultural,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.mag
yar,soc.culture.polish,soc.culture.romanian,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.ukra
inian,soc.culture.
r
References: > 
t>
Distribution: 

S. Duchnowski ) wrote:
: On 2 Apr 1996 21:56:58 GMT,  (Silke-Maria  Weinec
k)
: wrote:


: >: >Would that include your boss, Kevin?
: >
: >: Fresh why don't just fire him instead of intimidating him? 
: >: Why not shoot the bastard?
: >: Yeah, for freedom of speech - shut him up, for liberties - incarcerate him
.
: >
: >Why would freshagain's exercise in his freedom of speech irk you more 
: >than the antisemite's exercise of his freedom of speech? Whose fantasy is 
: >the shooting?
: >
: Kevins exercised his freedom of speech, freshagain exercised his bad judgment
: trying to intimidate Kevin. Everybody has a boss, what is the point? Shoul we
: run amok with little scraps of paper ie printouts from internet showing it to
: our bosses? Is that an American Way? You dont' like someone idea - you can
: attack an idea, not the person, and not this way.

You mean, you can attack Jews, but not Karl, or Kevin, or whomever... And 
you is holding the world to the American way, anyway?

Silke

>Balogh Eva irja:
>From:  (Eva S. Balogh)
>Subject: Re: Felhivas - Magyarokhoz
>Date: Tue, 02 Apr 1996 01:33:55 GMT

 , Illetve Stolmar G. Ilona, wrote:

>>Evtizedek ota fogyunk, testben es lelekben sorvadunk.  A Trianonban ... /
stb

>       Ami az evtizedeket illeti, kozvetlenul a haboru utan, tehat 1920-ban,
<a mai Magyarorszag lakossaga mindossze het es fel millio volt.  A
>kovetkezo evtizedekben pedig a termeszetes szaporodas meglehetosen
>magas volt. Mindossze az 1980-as evek ota van "negativ nepszaporulat."
>Ami pedig a "magyarsagot" illeti, a lakossag oriasi tobbsege magyar.
>Ami pedig a "betolakodottakat" illeti, jol ismert teny, hogy
>kulfoldinek allando jelleggel letelepedni Magyarorszagon bizony
>meglehetosen nehez annak ellenere, hogy a szuletesek es halalozasok
>szamai megengednek, hogy liberalisabban engedjunk be peldaul delszlav
>menekulteket es a romaniai magyarokat.

Nem sok ertelme van idomet ilyen kerdesek megvalaszolasaval tolteni, de:
1. Vajon miert lett eppen 1920-ban CSAK 7,5 millio a magyar lakosok szama?
No? Sajnalatos, hogy ezt egy "tortenesztol" kell megkerdezni es neki kellene
elmagyarazni. Pedig az idezett mondtaban szerepelt a Trianon "kifejezes" is!
2. Miert is kell nekunk "mai Magyarorszagrol" beszelnunk? Es nem az
EZEREVES-rol!
3. A haboruk utani "termeszetes szaporulat" megugrasarol nalamnal sokkal
okosabb es ezen a szakteruleten mukodo szakertok konyvtarakat megtolto
mennisegu tanulmanyokat irtak, kozuluk a legliberalisabbak is tenykent
allapitva meg, hogy ez az emberiseg fennallasa ota meglevo jelenseg. (Ugyanez
vonatkozik egy-egy hatalmas tomegeket kipusztito jarvany utani idoszakra is.)
Remelem, Balogh Eva van annyira kepzett, hogy nem kell a konyvtaramban
keresgelni nevek es idezetek utan... Teny azonban az is, hogy mig a hivo vagy
legalabb is nem istentagado tudosok mindezt Isten - vagy legalabb a
Termeszet, egy vilagot iranyito Feljebbvalo mukodesenek "kiegyenlito es
vilagot-emberiseget Fenntarto" tevekenysegenek tulajdonitottak es
tulajdonitjak, addig a liberalisok es ateistak nem talaltak meg ennek okat
(esetleg az ember fennmaradasi osztonevel magyarazzak - ebben az esetben
figyelmen kivul hagyva a "tomegesseget" es az esetlegesen akar vilagmeretuve
kiterjeszkedo teruleti kiszelesedest ennek az emberi reakcionak.).

4. Balogh Eva mar mas forumokon is ekesen bizonyitotta, hogy a statisztikai
szamitasok nem tartoznak profiljaba, erossegei koze, meg altalanos iskolai -
itt a magyarorszagi altalanos iskolakrol beszelek, nem az amerikaiakrol! -
szinten sem. Bizonyara ezert nem tudja, hogy ha a 80-as evekben beallt a
"negativ szaporodas", magyarul evente egy-egy, ma mar nem is kis, hanem jo
kozepes VAROSNYI ember tunik el Hazank terkeperol, akkor ennek a folyamatnak
- sajnos! - evtizedekkel ELOBB kellett megindulnia, s ezt megelozoen a
lakossag eloregedesi folyamatanak kellett bekovetkeznie. Ez azt jelenti -
igazan csak a gyengebbek es az ertetlenebbek kedveert -, hogy a szulo- es
nemzokepes lakossag letszama fokozatosan vagy rohamosan CSOKKENT. Ez
termeszetesen meg nem jelentkezett a mindent apolo s eltakaro statisztikakban
effektiv "fogyaskent". Csak egy generacio mulva, amikor ezeknek a HIANYZO
utodai (gyermekei) mar hianyoztak. Kb. itt rratunk most nehany eve. A
kovetkezo, hamarosan varhato fazis, amikor a hianyzo gyermekek gyermekei
fognak hianyozni - nemcsak a statisztikakbol! Tudja, kedves Eva, ez a
folyamat nem szamtani aranyossag - itt a fogyas adott ido aranyaban
hatvanyozottan jelentkezik majd. (Tudja, mi az a hatvany?)
5. Ha ismerne a hazai viszonyokat, tudnia kellene, hogy Magyarorszagon NINCS
igazan magyar erdekeket vedo es tisztesseges bevandorlasi torveny. Mondjuk
olyan, mint az amerikai - holott a ket orszag nemcsak oriasi gazdasagi es
"egyeb" kulonbsegeit tenkintve nem hasonlithato ossze, de azert sem, mert
egyik egy megcsonkitott, sokszor kifosztott, TORTENELMI nemzet - nem tudom,
tudja-e, hogy Hazank eppen ez evben 1100 eves? -, a masik pedig megalakulasa
(az oslakossag lemeszarlasa) ota alkotmanya szerint is BEFOGADASRA letrejott
hely. (Ha nem igy lenne, nem kellett volna az indianokat kiirtani, hogy
helyet csinaljanak az idejovoknek.) Mi, nemzeti erdekekert is szot emelok
(pontosabban: emelni merok) mindossze azt szeretnenk, ha Magyarorszagnak is
egy minimum olyan bevandorlasi torvenye lenne, mint pl. az USA-nak, vagy mas,
nyugat-europai orszagoknak. Kulonben - minek magyarazni - a ket orszag nem
osszehasonlithato. Nemcsak a magyar elmaradottsag miatt nem, es nemcsak azert
nem, mert a mienk az egyetlen olyan, amely sajat magaval hataros koroskorul.
6. Vannak, es nagyon remelem, lesznek is, akik nem befogadassal szeretnek "a
nepek olvasztotengelyeve" tenni Magyarorszagot - eppen a nagy evfordulo
tiszteletere! -, legalabb azt a maradek darabkat szeretnek magyarnak
megtartani. "AZERT VAGYUNK A VILAGBAN, HOGY VALAHOL OTTHON LEGYUNK BENNE."
(Ezt nem en mondom, Tamasi Aron mondta.) Vagyis egy kicsiny - meghagyott -
darabkaja e rohamosan pusztulo, inkabb pusztitott Foldunknek nekunk,
magyaroknak is jar. Egy olyan darabka, amit HAZAnak, Hazanknak nevezhetunk. S
ahol talan OTTHON erezhetjuk magunkat. Marcsak azert is, mert nem mindenkinek
eletelve, hogy ott a hazam, ahol a penz vagy a jo megelhetes van.
7. S ezert nem szeretnenk - szerencsere nagyon sokan, beleertve az On altal
hivatkozott erdelyi magyarsag majdnem 100%-at, ha SZULOFOLDJUKROL el kellene
vandorolniok - akarcsak Magyarorszagra is - az erdelyieknek.
8. Mi mar Szent Istvan ota ugyancsak "liberalisan" engedtuk be a delszlavokat
- a szerbeket pl. csak "ideiglenesen, vendegsegbe" - es megint szomoru
vagyok, hogy egy "tortenesznek" kell elmagyarazni: Trianon lett a
kovetkezmenye ennek az elismeresre melto,vendegszereto magatartasunknak.
Lattam otthon es az elszakitott teruleteinken jarva, ujsagokban megjelenve es
roplapokkent szorva azokat a terkepeket, amelyek a Balaton kozepvinalaig
jelolik a szerb teruleteket: Nagy-Szerbiat, Esztergom meg szlovak varos, es
termeszetesen a Balaton kozepvonala a szerbekkel testveri hatar, a Tiszaig
Nagy-Romania - es igy tovabb. Azt meg nem tudom, Budapestet meghagynak-e a
magyaroknak, vagy "igazsagosan" es (szlav)testveriesen megosztoznanak rajta.
(Ebben az esetben a romanok sem dakok lennenek? Es ebben az esetben fogalmam
sincs, mi lenne a Dob, Dohany, Sip es arrafele levo pesti utcakkal es Europa
legregibb es legnagyobb zsinagogajaval, de foleg az arra lakokkal es oda
jarokkal...?)


>       Nem tudom, hogy kik ezek a kulfoldre uldozott emberek. Ha ma valaki
>sajat joszantabol elhagyja az orszagot az mindossze emberi jogait
>ervenyesiti. Az elozo rendszerben peldaul nem volt a magyar
>allampolgarnak joga legalisan emigralni. Ha a kulfoldre uldozott
>emberek alatt azokat erti Stolmar G. Ilona, akik az utobbi, mondjuk,
>ot evben hagytak el az orszagot, mivel kulfoldon jobban tudjak
>ervenyesiteni szaktudasukat--hat ezt nem lehet eppen uldozesnek
>nevezni. Magyarorszag szegeny orszag,  tudomanyos lehetosegei
>alacsonyak, sot, mivel a tudomanyos szakertok szama az orszag
>lehetosegeihez kepest tul magas, valoszinuleg nem tudnak
>Magyarorszagon sajat szakmajukban elhelyezkedni. Ez a helyzet
>Magyarorszagon mar regesregen; mar a 20-as evek ota.

Balogh Eva, aki allitolag 56-ban erkezett szuleivel, NEM TUDJA, kik ezek a
kulfoldre uldozott emberek! No comment.

Senki sem beszelt es beszel a ma eljottekrol. (Tudja, a statisztika es a
matematika!  Utobbiak gyermekei, itt szuletven, majd csak 20-30 ev mulva
fognak hianyozni otthon!). NEM az utolso 5 evben eljottekrol beszelunk es
nagy szegyen egy magyarul beszelonek a "20-as eveket" emlitenie, mert ez azt
jelenti, hogy sem a 3 millio koldus orszagarol nem ertesult, se Jozsef Attila
munkassagarol (Hazam) "...s kitantorgott Amerikaba / masfel millio
emberunk..."

>>mindenki megszabhatja, kit tamogat es kit nem --, hogy KIZAROLAG MAGYAR C=
>>SALADOKAT segit! (Tehat nem ciganyt, nem szerbet, nem zsidot, nem hottent=
>>ottat, nem akarmit, CSAK MAGYART.)
>
>       Itt van a kutya elasva. Kit-mit ertunk magyar alatt? Magyar
>allampolgarok genetikai hattere igen vegyes. Stolmar G. Ilona neve sem
>hangzik eppen echt magyarnak. De meg ha az is lenne--mint az enyem, en
>nem vagyok mindossze magyar. Legalabb is tudomasom szerint, a magyaron
>kivul van bennem nemet es horvat. Es ki tudja mi minden mas.

Bizony, itt van elasva! Egyreszt, mert annak tagadasa, hogy nem szabhatja meg
mindenki, kit akar tamogatni, a tetel forditottjat jelenti: Balogh Eva
esetleg KOTELEZOEN irna elo, kinek kit kotelezo tamogatni, vagy kit kotelezo
MINDENKINEK tamogatnia.
Nagyon nem szeretnem sem eloirni, sem megmagyarazni, ki a magyar, mi a magyar
- ezt nagyon erthetoen megtette nemcsak Szabo Dezso, de Nemeth Laszlo es meg
sok mas nagy magyar is. De en azert nem szeretnem elmagyarazni, mert akinel
ez mar magyarazatra szorul, annak ugyis remenytelen mindenfele meghatarozas.

Igen, a nevem, ami a ferjem neve - mondhatnam: mert nekem van ilyenem -,
bizony, nem magyar. Sot, elso ferjem neve sem volt magyar! Mindketto osei
szazadokkal elobb nemetkent, vagy "svabkent" vandoroltak be abba az utolso,
fasiszta, szelsoseges, idegengyulolo es kirekeszto Magyarorszagba. (Ez
viszony nem jelenti, hogy a sajat nevem nem magyar.) (De nem csak ezert, es
nem toluk tudom, hogy az "echte" nemet szonak egy "e" betucske is van a
vegen, es jo magyarosan "kikopottnek" forditjuk...) Csakhogy itt a bokkeno:
NEM A NEV hatarozza meg azt, ki a magyar. Vannak pl. ezen a forumon is
bamulatosan szep magyar nevu egyenek, akikkel a magyarsag nagy-nagy resze
semmifele kozosseget nem lenne hajlando vallalni!
"...mint az enyem" - irja Balogh Eva sajat nevere, de allitom: nem csak en
tartom ugy: neki bizony CSAK A NEVE  - no, esetleg anyanyelve - magyar.

>> Bizunk abban, hogy Nemzetunk vegpusztul=
>>astol valo megmenteseben mindenki felelossegteljesen es aldozatokat hozva=
>> akar resztvenni.

>       Nem kell Stolmar G. Ilonanak kulonosebben aggodnia. Nemzetunk meg nem
>all a vegpusztulashoz kozel. A magyar nep mar evezredek ota el es
>virul, osszekeveredve az elobbi "betolakodokkal": nemetekkel,
>romanokkal, szlovakokkal, horvatokkal, zsidokkal, es ciganyokkal.,
>egyutt alkotva a mai magyar lakossagot.

>       Balogh Eva

Engedje meg nekem, hogy azert aggodjam, ami ENGEM aggaszt! En meg megengedem,
sot szivbol kivanom  Onnek, hogy azokkal keveredjen, akikkel akar! Akar a
felsoroltak mindegyikevel is, egyszerre.  A keveredes ugyanis nem a magyarsag
pusztulasat allitja meg, csak az ossznepesseg letszamat tartja esetleg
"szinten", es amit ezer even at - bar tatar, torok, nemet, orosz es masok
"magyarorszagi viszonyait" es "cselekmenyeit" ismerve, nem mondanam, hogy a
magyarsag "el(t) es virul(t)" vidaman es gondtalanul!! - nem sikerult
elerniuk ellensegeinknek, az utobbi evtizedek folyamatait is ismerve, nehany
ev alatt is bekovetkezhet. Sajnos, engem az nem vigasztal,  egyeseknek vagy
sokaknak ez oromet okoz.
-----------

Am egy masik felhivast igertem a cimben! Es kerem azokat a szep magyaros nevu
- es idegen nevu - egyedeket, akik elozo felhivasomra draga idomet rablo,
valaszadasra meltatlan mocskolodasba kezdtek, sziveskedjenek EZT IS
ugyanolyan hevvel mocskolni es "ertekelni"!

"Testvereink! Hittestverek! Az egesz foldkereksegen nincs egyetlen darab fold
sem, amelyet konnyebben leigazhatnank, mint Galiciat es Magyarorszagot. E ket
orszagnak mindenkeppen a mienknek kell lennie, mert szamunkra ott a
legkedvezobbek a korulmenyek. Ti, zsido testverek faradozzatok minden
erotokkel azon, hogy mindket orszagot teljesen birtokotokba vehessetek,
faradozzatok, hogy minden keresztenyt eluzzetek es teljesen urra legyetek.
Torekedjetek, hogy mindent, amit ott meg a keresztenyek birtokolnak, teljesen
kezetekbe vegyetek. Ha erre nem volna elegendo anyagi eszkozotok, a parizsi
szovetsegunk mar is GYUJTESEKET RENDEZ es az adomanyok varatlan boseggel
folynak be penztarunkba azzal a cellal, hogy a galiciai es magyarorszagi
teruleteket a galiciaiak es magyarok kezebol kiragadjatok es hogy azok
kizarolag zsido kezre keruljenek. Az egesz vilag tokesei erre a celra nagy
osszegeket aldoznak s egyesulnek, hogy ezt a celt a legrovidebb ido alatt
elerhessetek." (Russischen Invaliden, 1910. dec. 30. 285. szam. Az Alliance
Israelite'e felhivasa.)

Ha valaki hitelt erdemlo, ezt a felhivast - amely abban az idoben megjelent a
magyar ujsagokban is - ervenytelenito dokumentumot ismer es azt kozli,
valamint megcafolja - dokumentumokkal! - a mai cionista szovetsegek es egyeb
szervezetek felhivasait es lathato, erzekelheto tevekenyseget Magyarorszaggal
kapcsolatban, azt kerem, tegye meg! Egyebkent varom a szaszvarik es szucsok,
elekek es rosenfeldek meg egyebek mocskolodasait.

Stolmar G. Ilona

Let's put it this way, Slawek.

Jewish boss has employee who has reputation for antisemitism.

How is that boss likely to act toward that employee?

Not a difficult question.

Andrew

 (S. Duchnowski) wrote:

>On 2 Apr 1996 16:44:33 -0500,  (FreshAgain) wrote:

>>Hey S., which I'll assume stands for stupid.
>>
>>Kevin's boss is a Jew.
>>He'd probably disapprove of Kevin's postings.
>>Freedom of speech can only be violated by the Congress.
>>
>>GEt it, little boy?
>What does it have to do with anything what is religious background of Kevin's
>boss? His bosses boss is christian or if not President of The United States is
,
>what does it change?

>__Slawek Duchnowski


>___("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
>___`6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  
>___(_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._  `. ``-..-'   
>____`--'_..-_/  /--'_.'  ,'            
>__(!!).-' ((().'  ((((.-'  
>-------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------
"If they give you ruled paper,
Write the other way."
               --Juan Ramon Jimenez

On 2 Apr 1996 15:00:33 GMT,  (Tony Alicea) wrote:

 wrote:
>
>>Violators will be reported to the authorities in charge of the Usenet.
>
>	Ha ha ha ha ha!!! They DON'T EXIST!!! :-)  Get a CLUE!!!
>
>-- 
So maybe to authorities in charge of charging?

__Slawek Duchnowski


___("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
___`6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  
___(_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._  `. ``-..-'   
____`--'_..-_/  /--'_.'  ,'            
__(!!).-' ((().'  ((((.-'  
> -------------------------------------------

On 2 Apr 1996 16:44:33 -0500,  (FreshAgain) wrote:

>Hey S., which I'll assume stands for stupid.
>
>Kevin's boss is a Jew.
>He'd probably disapprove of Kevin's postings.
>Freedom of speech can only be violated by the Congress.
>
>GEt it, little boy?
What does it have to do with anything what is religious background of Kevin's
boss? His bosses boss is christian or if not President of The United States is,
what does it change?

__Slawek Duchnowski


___("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
___`6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  
___(_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._  `. ``-..-'   
____`--'_..-_/  /--'_.'  ,'            
__(!!).-' ((().'  ((((.-'  
> -------------------------------------------

Oh, shux!  Just as that stupid crossposted thread on "How is 'I love
you' in your language" started dying down, now this!  Juging from past
experience on the topic, this one might go on for months. 

Joe Pannon
(without crossposting!)

Nem tudom hogy ezt a kerdest itt lehet-e feltenni.  Kubaba szeretnek 
menni, spanyolt tanulni.  Hallottam hogy csaladoknal lehet elni, hogy 
teljes minosegben lehessen atelni a kulturajukat es a spanyolt gyorsabban 
lehet elsajatitani, mivel nem ertenek se magyarul se angolul, stb.  Van 
aki tud ajanlani egy csaladot vagy volt valamilyen elmenye errol?

Lehet a Kubaba egy csaladnal lakni hogy megtanulj spanyolul.  Van olyan 
csalad akit tudtok javasolni.

In Russian, it would be:

   Ya tibuya lablue...
   (I love you)

AlterEgo


In article >, vxs8372
> wrote:

Also in Spanish, "Te quiero" means I love you in a familial or 
friendship context.

-- 
"Why is it that anything on Earth we do not understand, we are pushed on to our
 knees to worship or to damn...?"     -The The

On 2 Apr 1996 21:56:58 GMT,  (Silke-Maria  Weineck)
wrote:


>: >Would that include your boss, Kevin?
>
>: Fresh why don't just fire him instead of intimidating him? 
>: Why not shoot the bastard?
>: Yeah, for freedom of speech - shut him up, for liberties - incarcerate him.
>
>Why would freshagain's exercise in his freedom of speech irk you more 
>than the antisemite's exercise of his freedom of speech? Whose fantasy is 
>the shooting?
>
Kevins exercised his freedom of speech, freshagain exercised his bad judgment
trying to intimidate Kevin. Everybody has a boss, what is the point? Shoul we
run amok with little scraps of paper ie printouts from internet showing it to
our bosses? Is that an American Way? You dont' like someone idea - you can
attack an idea, not the person, and not this way.


__Slawek Duchnowski


___("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
___`6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)  
___(_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._  `. ``-..-'   
____`--'_..-_/  /--'_.'  ,'            
__(!!).-' ((().'  ((((.-'  
> -------------------------------------------

Kramar Laszlonak:

Uram, ha nem tud magyarul irni, csak zagyvasagot, akkor ne irjon,
mert magyarul - olvashatatlan.

A felhivast otthoni Asszonytarsaim irtak, akik biztos jobban
erzik, latjak es tudjak az okokat.  Csak dicseretre meltoak!
Talan azert nem faj a magyar nep balsorsa egyeseknek, mint Kramar
Laszlonak, mert nem is tartoznak a magyarsaghoz. Igy nagy szerencse
lehet, hogy nem otthon rontjak a levegot, tarsaikkal egyutt!

Aki az en irasomat nem erti meg, az ne valaszoljon, mert nem
vagyok ra kivancsi!

Langi A. Maria

---

Nagy "Gyokertelen" Peternek:

Hat On uram, valoban egy "gyokertelen" pasas, ha a magyar nep
szornyu sorsat "Mokanak" tartja. Ilyentol SEMMIT nem kovetel a
Haza!

Langi A. Maria

>intro:   this year marks the 50th anniversary of the trial of the
>         major german war criminals before the international 
>         military tribunal in nuremberg.  the concept of "crimes 
>         against humanity" was first codified at the nuremberg 
>         trials following war world ii. and today it serves as a 
>         model for the prosecution of those suspected of war 
>         crimes in rwanda and the former yugoslavia.  here's 
>         voa's ______ with a report on the recent reunion in 
>         washington, d-c, of the nuremberg trial judges and the 
>         relevance of their work to issues of peace and justice 
>         today.

Having Stalin's representatives sitting on that bench made Nurenberg a
mockery of justice.  They have committed as bad or worse crimes not only
during the war, but even during the peace, yet they avoided the kind 
of indictments meeted out in Nurenberg.  Since many of the perpetrators
are still alive, it's still not late.  Why only hunt for former Nazies?
Why is it that many who support delayed justice for the few still
remaining Nazi criminals, often are against doing the same with regards
to the perpetrators of Communist era crimes?

Joe Pannon

T. Kocsis  > wrote:
>Kedves efisher,
>
>Emlexem arra az elso jelentkezesere. Igy nyitottal: "I am ashamed
>of being Hungarian". Nekem attol volt hanyingerem.

No es az sem volt semmi, amikor meg joval elotte a HIXen (a'szem a
SZALONban) ugy irt be, mint aki alig tud magyarul.  Mindenesetre sokkal
rosszabbul, mint ahogy az alsogatyas sztorijat megirta.  (Amit kulonben
meglepoen jonak talaltam az OTTlapjan talaltak utan.)

PJ

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Nem tudom hogy ezt a kerdest itt lehet-e feltenni.  Kubaba szeretnek 
menni, spanyolt tanulni.  Hallottam hogy csaladoknal lehet elni, hogy 
teljes minosegben lehessen atelni a kulturajukat es a spanyolt gyorsabban 
lehet elsajatitani, mivel nem ertenek se magyarul se angolul, stb.  Van 
aki tud ajanlani egy csaladot vagy volt valamilyen elmenye errol?

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Tamas, a biologus figyelmeztetett, hogy nem igaz az allitasom, misze-
rint mas fajok nem olik meg fajtarsaikat, kicsinyiket. Utolag magam is
rajottem, s maganlevelben koszontem helyreigazitasat. Bosszantobb egy
elirasom "kis sikerrel" helyett termeszetesen "nem kis sikerrel"-t akar-
tam irni. Mindez termeszetesen nem valtoztat allaspontomon mindenfajta
emberolest elitélve.   Ami zavart, s ezt is tisztaztuk, a felszolitasa,
hogy "hagyjam abba a pro life allaspont nepszerusiteset, mert ugy erzi,
hogy velemenyem elmondasa barkit is megakadalyoz abban, hogy tolem el-
tero allaspontot alakitson ki az adott ugyben. Azt, hiszem ezt is sike-
rult tisztazni, gondolatok, eszmék utkoztetesere szolgal ez a Forum,
senkit semmiben nem akadalyozva. Tehat egy ervvel szegenyebben, de ma-
radva "pro life" gondolkodasunak kivan Kellemes Unnnepeket: Kiraly M.
   P.S. Voltak aranyhorcsogjeink, s a mama elkezdte megenni az ujszo-
lott kicsinyeit, nagyon szomoruak voltunk miatta. Nagyon regen volt,
s csak most jutott eszembe!

Mindenekelott elnezest, amennyiben elozo levelem nehol szemelyeskedo-
nek tunt. Nem volt celom, a vitaban neha szinte elkerulhetetlen. A bi-
zonyitekokrol. /Igaza van, hogy igenyli, de itt lep be az a fura ugy,
hogy nemcsak racio es IQ vagyunk. Mondjuk harom dolog. Harmonia-
diszharmonia - lasd zene igaz - hamis 1+1=2 ill. 1+1=3 jo - rossz
kapok egy pofont - nem kapok egy pofont. Hat most ennyire futotta:
udvozlettel: Kiraly Miklos

On 2 Apr 1996  Elek Gabor > wrote:

> Kulonben egyszeruen bele fogunk pusztulni. [...]

Mar pusztulunk, nem csak fogunk. 

Annak a merhetetlen erkolcstelensegnek
ami ma Magyarorszagon van, meg kell fizetni az arat. Annak az arat, hogy 
a nep egy jelentekeny resze szamara elfogadhato volt egy pufajkas meg egy
avos fattyu^*(ld iromany vege), (plusz egy igen gyanus multu koztarasagi 
elnok), annak arat, hogy nagyivben tesz a tobbseg a nemzeti  ertekekre, 
a nemzeti
kulturara es erdekekere, szazmilliardokban merik. (Kb ilyen nagysagrendu,
amit ellopnak ill tonkretesznek.) Tovabba annak az arat, amit nap mint
nap lehetett hallani a valasztasok elott, hogy ti.: "Jobb volt a Kadar
alatt, mert akkor tobbet lehetett lopni", is meg kell fizetni. Tudom, hogy ez 
egy kommunista 
valasztasi propaganda trukk volt, de azert megsem kellett volna bevenni.
Legalabbis ennyi embernek.
Tovabba az is elborzasztott, ahogy a tobseg a kommunizmus aldozataira,
munkaszolgalatosok, internaltak, kitelepitettek stb. tekintett.
Feltek, hogy beloluk lesznek az "uj partizanok". Ezert inkabb leszavaztak
a regiekre. Rablasnak tekintettek, hogy a  volt munkaszolgalatosok
kaptak 1 evert 500 Ft nyugdij emelest. (Ha beszamitottak volna 
munkaviszonynak, akkor azok, akik hataron voltak, pl a 3 evukert, ha
elismerik munkaviszonynak, tobbet kaptak volna.)

Ma ugy latom, hogy eloszor nem gazdasagilag, hanem erkolcsileg es 
spiritualisan kell az orszagnak megujulnia. Enelkul a gazdasagi es kulturalis
felemelkedes nem megy. Ennek a legnagyobb akadalya a jelenlegi 
kormanykolalicio partelitje. (Nem is annyira a tamogatoik. Azok tobbnyire
beetetett emberek. Persze, a hulyeseg es a rosszindulat is bun.)

> [...] Ha nem a centrumot kell
> elfoglalni a politikaban, hanem a margo't akkor ott diktatura lesz.

Kapaszkodj Gabor. Mar van. Mar van. Csak meg nem gyilkol. Meg csak
megfelemlit, elhallgattat, egzisztenciatol foszt meg stb. Meg csak
a torvenyeket nem tarja be (pl. a media torveny, megkulonboztetest tesz 
pl az oktatasi funkciok atvallalasaert torvenyesen jaro allami 
tamogatas folyositasa tekinteteben a kulonbozo egyhazak kozt, stb.
[ld Pazmany Peter katolikus egyetem vs egyes "magan" kozepiskolak, akik
hatalmas penzeket, es foleg ertekes teruletet kaptak] ). Szep csendben 
dolgozik, es ugy, hogy kozben a Nyugat, es foleg Amerika egy jelentekeny 
resze tapsol nekik, sot, aktivan tamogatja oket a "fasisztak" ellen.
(Persze, mert jo nagyot tudtak kanyarintani a privatizacio soran. 
Ekkora arulast meg az MDF-bol sem tudtak volna kihozni, pedig azok egy
resze se volt azert kutya. Bocs. MDNP-t kellett volna irnom, annak is csak
egy resze. A "lapi kurucok" (mai MDF) meg lehet 
rendbejonnek. De nem valoszinu. En azert bizom bennuk.)

> A centrumra kell figyelnunk, ez legalabb ovatossagra kesztet, a politikai
> nyelvezet megvalasztasara, az iratlan szabalyaink betartasara. [...]

Centrum does not exist. Legalabbis ma, itt, Magyarorszagon. Aki 
centrumosdit jatszik ma, az elfog tunni a politikai sullyesztoben,
mint a nehai "Polgari Szovetseg". Es ez igy van jol. A politikai 
egyensuly csak ugy tud helyre allni, ha a kovetkezo valasztasokon a politikai
inga eroteljesen kibillen a masik iranyba. Es a kozepnek, marmint aki
annak van kijelolve tarsadalmi helyzete folytan, ami meg csak
lesz, ha lesz, nem szabad elfeledkeznie, hogy Torgyantol sokkal
konyebben fog tudni megszabadulni, mint a jelenleg orszaglo sopredektol.
A Torgyan igen hasznos feladatot fog elvegezni ezek eltakaritasaval.
Az persze nem lenne jo, ha sokaig maradna. De addig mindenkeppen
jo lesz, mig megtori a kommunista-liberalis nomenklatura hatalmat. 
Persze, az O emeberei is lopni fognak (amikor meg bennvoltak a kormanyban
mar akkor is loptak. Ld. Zsiros Geza pl. Bar azok kozt, akik most prominensek
nem tudnek senkit konkretan megnevezni.). (Minden part azert alakul ui.
ma Magyarorszagon.) De ez nem lesz olyan veszelyes, mint jelenleg.
Egyreszt azert, mert nem fognak tudni igazan sokat lopni, (mert
nem lesz mar mit, es nincsenek annyira beepulve, be is kell torni
nekik a megfelelo poziciokba), masreszt nem lesz annyi idejuk, harmadreszt
talan azert, mert a kulfoldiekkel nem lesznek olyan keszsegesek.
Akarmit is fognak ui. csinalni, mindig rosszat fognak irni roluk.
Igy nem lesz erdemes riszalniuk magukat, mint egy idoben a (regi) MDF
egy resze tette. (A mostaniakat hadd ne minositsem. Mar tobbszor megtettem 
ui.) Utanuk talan elindulhat egy nem a szabadrablasra alapozodo
polgarosodasi folyamat, melynek fo mozgato ereje nem a pozicioval
valo visszaeles, hanem az ertekteremtes lesz. De mire idaig eljutunk,
az szerintem meg 300.000 alkoholistankba fog kerulni, es a ferfiak
atlageletkora 55 ev ala fog csokkenni---jo esetben. (Es biztos vagyok benne,
hogy a nyugdijintezet meg igy is veszteseges lesz ... .) Az a baj, hogy
mar nem marad ---kulonosen lelkileg --- egeszseges ember, aki gyereket 
csinaljon. Nem is nagyon csinalnak. Pusztulunk. A nemzet fizet a buneiert.
Az ertelmiseg is folszamolodik lassan, legalabbis ertelmisegi mivoltaban.
Megerdemli, ui. erejebol nem futotta sokkal tobbre, mint az informacios
elonnyel valo visszaelesre es a "szelsosegesezes"-re. Ertekteremtesre 
mar nem. Szinte tragikus, hogy pl. az MTA-nal a rendszervaltas ota
az egy fore juto elfogadott publikaciok szama vagy 30%-al csokkent.
(Bocs, ha nem teljesen pontos az adat, nincs kozelemben az a cikk,
amiben olvastam. Ha valaki tudja a pontos szamot, kerem pontositson.
A nagysagrend viszont stimmel.) A szinvonal meg nem merheto szamokkal ...

En ezert nem a kulso hatalmakat ill. a nemzetunk elleni cselszovest
hibaztatom elsosorban (bar az is van boven, es nem szabad erejet 
alabecsulni),
hanem sajat magunkat. Ui. a jelenlegi helyzetbe a nemzet nagyreszt sajat
akaratabol kerult. Kishituseg, alpari igenyek, hedonizmus, manak eles,
nemtorodomseg, lustasag kovetkezteben. 
[Ez utobbi felelmetes meretu. Egyes (mit irok,
szinte minden) ember, aki "szakmunkas"---de valojaban nem ert
semmihez, havi 60.000 netto fizetesert sem 
hajlando rendesen dolgozni. (Ez mai magyar viszonyok kozott igen jo 
fizetesnek szamit falusi, kisvarosi
kornyezetben. Ugyanezek az emberek ujjonganak, ha 25.000 nettot tudnak
valahol kapni.) Es kozben lopnak mint a szarka, nem hajtjak vegre a 
tulajdonos utasitasait, jaratjak a pofajukat es nyiltan szidjak az 
alkalmazojukat annak jelenleteben. Kozben 
meg meglepodnek, ha elbocsatjak oket, es sirnak a 3 gyerekuk miatt. De nem 
tanulnak belole.
Inkabb elnek a 18.000 Ft koruli munka nelkuli segelybol, es a kocsmaban
dicserik a Kadart, hogy akkor milyen jo volt, mert nem volt ekkora
a maszekok pofaja, es lehetett lopni. Ekkor persze a 3 gyerek nem jut
eszebe, hogy a Kadar nem fizetett neki 60.000 Ft-ot, es hogy allatias
munkat kellett vegeznie, nem nyugati gepekkel urizalni.
En az ilyen embereket nem ertem. Mi nekik a rossz? Viszonylag konnyu
tiszta, erdekes munkat vegezhetnek. Csak precizebbnek, rugalmasabbanak
es kiszamithatobbank kell lenniuk. Ezzel megduplazhatjak keresetuket.
De nem kell. Inkabb elnek, mint az allatok. Es kozben meg azt is hiszik,
hogy ez jo nekik.]

Kocsis Tamasnak:
Tobbnyire sok mindenben egyetertek veled. Most azonban ugy
erzem, egy kicsit elvetetted a sulykot. A bolsevizmus elleni harcban
nagyon vigyazni kell, hogy ne vegyuk fel az o harcmodorukat. Mert
akkor eleve vesztunk. Azza valunk, ami ellen harcolunk. Persze, puhanak
sem kell azert lenni, es tudomasul kell venni, hogy igazi bunbanat nelkul 
nincs megbocsatas. Ha megfeketednek (a vorosok es a kekek), akkor sem.

(*) A Petho Ivant nem azert nevezem ui. en avosfattyunak, mert a szulei
avosok voltak. Hanem azert, mert O sem kulonb naluk. Emlekezzunk csak ra,
hogy probalt hatalmaval visszaelve dokumentumokat megsemmisittetni,
ill. nyilvanossagra hozatalukat megakadalyozni. Ezek az O modszereik.
Petho ezert erdemel megvetest, nem amit a szulei kovettek el. Ha O 
egy becsuletes es tiszta ember lenne, akkor inkabb elismerest erdemelne.
[Mert neki nehezebb lenne egy ilyen allapotot elerni, mint pl. nekem,
vagy neked.]
Dehat nem az. Persze, ilyen hatterrel, statisztikusan, sokkal kisebb
valoszinuseggel lesz az ember tiszta.  De mindenkiben megvan erre, legalabbis
elmeletileg, a lehetoseg, es azt meg kell adni neki. 
Remelem, ezert a velemenyert azert nem fogsz "liberalis"nak belyegezni. 
Kulonben is, ha megteszed, le fog peregni rolam. Senki sem fogja elhinni :-)

Tibor

O'dor Tibor